EPTI don't agree with many of their views, but to me they definitely have a point. Some things in our society are just terribly wrong and people should at least start thinking about that.
Germany (X): German General Election - Page 8
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imperator-xy
Germany1366 Posts
I don't agree with many of their views, but to me they definitely have a point. Some things in our society are just terribly wrong and people should at least start thinking about that. | ||
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Mandalor
Germany2362 Posts
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Aiobhill
Germany283 Posts
On August 23 2013 23:29 imperator-xy wrote: Die Linke is getting slammed by most of our media because they actually want huge changes, which is against the media's owner's agenda. Indeed, it's a "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy"(tm). Sorry to temper your enthusiasm with facts, but according to University of Hamburg research, the party preference among journalists/content creators ("der in Deutschland tätigen Medienschaffenden") in Germany is as follow: Grüne: 35,5 Prozent SPD: 26 Prozent CDU: 8,7 Prozent FDP: 6,8 Prozent (data from 2005: source: http://www.media-perspektiven.de/uploads/tx_mppublications/07-2006_Weischenberg.pdf) I can compare German media with US, English and Irish from first hand experience and it is easily more left leaning than any of these three. Intruigingly the 11th biggest media owner in Germany with 2% market share is Deutsche Druck- und Verlagsgesellschaft mbH, fully owned by the SPD. | ||
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SgtCoDFish
United Kingdom1520 Posts
Since Merkel and the CDU/CSU seem so popular, are we likely to see a strong vote for the CSU/CDU (and therefore Europäische Volkspartei) in the European elections? On August 23 2013 23:29 imperator-xy wrote: the party preference among journalists/content creators ("der in Deutschland tätigen Medienschaffenden") in Germany is as follow: Grüne: 35,5 Prozent SPD: 26 Prozent CDU: 8,7 Prozent FDP: 6,8 Prozent (data from 2005: source: http://www.media-perspektiven.de/uploads/tx_mppublications/07-2006_Weischenberg.pdf) That's really interesting, thanks for sharing! | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
On August 23 2013 23:57 Mandalor wrote: imo they get bashed because they just throw around ridiculous ideas without any plan whatsoever how to realize them. Also, a lot of their ideas sound nice for people with average (or lower than average) saleries at first glance, but if realized, could be hugely detrimental to them (higher taxes for people with a lot of income for example). I am not a vivid supporter of the Linke, but posts like these drive me nuts. (Healthy discussion is overshadowed by bullshit.) Even you, dear Mandalor, must recognize that a statement like "this party X has no plan whatsoever" is pure propaganda, period. What party in this world, that is older than 2 years and has more than a hundred members, does not have a plan? You may not like their plan, but accusing them without any grounds it childish. Also your second sentence makes no sense at all. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On August 24 2013 00:24 lord_nibbler wrote: I am not a vivid supporter of the Linke, but posts like these drive me nuts. (Healthy discussion is overshadowed by bullshit.) Even you, dear Mandalor, must recognize that a statement like "this party X has no plan whatsoever" is pure propaganda, period. What party in this world, that is older than 2 years and has more than a hundred members, does not have a plan? You may not like their plan, but accusing them without any grounds it childish. Also your second sentence makes no sense at all. it is entirely true though. They base everything on shouting nice phrases that sound nice on the first hand that some times even contradict something else they're shouting at the same time. Take that and some ridiculous standpoints they got like + Show Spoiler [german, short] + [Die Linke steht] für eine andere, demokratische Wirtschaftsordnung, die die Marktsteuerung von Produktion und Verteilung der demokratischen, sozialen und ökologischen Rahmensetzung und Kontrolle unterordnet. Sie muss auf öffentlichem und demokratisch kontrolliertem Eigentum in der Daseinsvorsorge, an der gesellschaftlichen Infrastruktur, in der Energiewirtschaft und im Finanzsektor beruhen. Wir wollen eine demokratische Vergesellschaftung weiterer strukturbestimmender Bereiche auf der Grundlage von staatlichem, kommunalem, genossenschaftlichem oder Belegschaftseigentum. Die Wirtschaft ist einer strikten Wettbewerbskontrolle zu unterwerfen. In allen Unternehmen sind wirksame Arbeitnehmerund Mitbestimmungsrechte zu sichern I even wanted to make the hilarious part up there bold, turned out I made everything bold, in 5 steps, so I just copy&pasted without anything. They know they're a laughing matter and apparently don't even take it serious themselves to catch attention and votes from people who think that phrases like "Arbeit für alle! Vollbeschäftigung für Deutschland!" (yeha for all those "Platzanweiser" again!) sound like something, because it might sound appealing at first. Edit: The point that they apparently thought they have to include the phrase that they won't disown small companies like local farmers as well is pretty hilarious as well. How nuts does your program have to be for you to have to include THAT phrase in there to make sure people don't get the wrong opinion?  | ||
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SilentchiLL
Germany1405 Posts
On August 24 2013 00:24 lord_nibbler wrote: I am not a vivid supporter of the Linke, but posts like these drive me nuts. (Healthy discussion is overshadowed by bullshit.) Even you, dear Mandalor, must recognize that a statement like "this party X has no plan whatsoever" is pure propaganda, period. What party in this world, that is older than 2 years and has more than a hundred members, does not have a plan? You may not like their plan, but accusing them without any grounds it childish. Also your second sentence makes no sense at all. I applaud the spirit of your post and wish I could agree with you, it's good that you try to defend a noncomformist party from general statements, but the problem is: They are true. Die Linke DOESN'T have a plan how to realize their silly promises, because they don't NEED one, they won't ever actually get into the situation which would force them to try to realize them because they are a relatively small party and none (NONE) of the other meaningful parties would coalate with them above statelevel ever and even if they would they still couldn't realize their agenda because they are too small and both coalitionpartners (since it would be SPD and Grüne if any at all) wouldn't want their changes. So yeah, I dislike general statements like "this party X has no plan whatsoever" too, but in this case it's true, they have no plan and need no plan, their plan is basically to promise whatever gets them votes while knowing that they never have to fullfill their promises. | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
On August 24 2013 00:22 SgtCoDFish wrote: Historically speaking, do the results of the German elections tend to serve as an indicator of what will happen in the European elections in Germany (since obviously that affects me and the German general election doesn't directly)? In the UK it's not usually a good indicator, but we have a wildly different system for general elections so people vote completely differently, whereas the german system is much closer to the european system. That is really hard to answer, because of the different election periods (every 4 year vs. every 5). Generally speaking, like in most democracies there is this approval cycle going on. Two years after an election approval ratings are at the lowest for the government (regardless of party). And from what I remember, European elections have been quite aligned to the ongoing general tune. So this 'phenomenon' used to be quite obvious (meaning the governing parties got quite the slap in the face oftentimes). Last time was special though. As the European election was just two month before the German one. So it was more of a 'pre-vote' for the upcoming 'real' election. This time it might become interesting. Say Greece gets it's third bailout (expected in early 2014) and the mood turns worse again, then there is a chance of a landslide. But I can also see a vision, where we have a grand coalition with no real opposing views, where nothing at all happens (like an gentlemen agreement to tone down campaigning). | ||
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imperator-xy
Germany1366 Posts
On August 23 2013 23:59 Aiobhill wrote: Indeed, it's a "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy"(tm). Sorry to temper your enthusiasm with facts, but according to University of Hamburg research, the party preference among journalists/content creators ("der in Deutschland tätigen Medienschaffenden") in Germany is as follow: Grüne: 35,5 Prozent SPD: 26 Prozent CDU: 8,7 Prozent FDP: 6,8 Prozent (data from 2005: source: http://www.media-perspektiven.de/uploads/tx_mppublications/07-2006_Weischenberg.pdf) I can compare German media with US, English and Irish from first hand experience and it is easily more left leaning than any of these three. Intruigingly the 11th biggest media owner in Germany with 2% market share is Deutsche Druck- und Verlagsgesellschaft mbH, fully owned by the SPD. I feel like you totally missunderstood me. Basically every party and every newspaper bashes Die Linke. Die Linke wants to heavily limit our free market, so people with power and money try everything to make them look poorly. Has nothing to do with a "Vast Right Wing Conspiracy" (never heard of that). People should at least think about some of Die Linke's views. Free market is good, but sometimes it really fucks up things. For example when basic things get privatized, there are often problems because private companies just want to make money instead of delivering the best quality possible. | ||
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Mandalor
Germany2362 Posts
On August 24 2013 00:24 lord_nibbler wrote: I am not a vivid supporter of the Linke, but posts like these drive me nuts. (Healthy discussion is overshadowed by bullshit.) Even you, dear Mandalor, must recognize that a statement like "this party X has no plan whatsoever" is pure propaganda, period. What party in this world, that is older than 2 years and has more than a hundred members, does not have a plan? You may not like their plan, but accusing them without any grounds it childish. Also your second sentence makes no sense at all. If you cared to read the party programmes, you'd notice how many of our parties have nice ideas, but no detailed plans on how to realize them (or they withhold them for whatever reason, which I doubt). This isn't even only true for Die Linke. It's just that Die Linke is a very extreme example for this. The amount of demands this party has and the promises they give that are based on solid grounds and numbers, most importantly, are close to non-existant. The second sentence was hinting on the development our tax income might have if we taxed high income households even more. Switzerland and Monaco really aren't that far away  You might disagree with my view on the party, but I don't see how my post evoked a reaction like that (bullshit, propaganda, childish) - just to quote a few gems of a non-vivid supporter of the party I was criticizing, dear lord_nibbler. | ||
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Aiobhill
Germany283 Posts
On August 24 2013 01:02 imperator-xy wrote: People should at least think about some of Die Linke's views. Free market is good, but sometimes it really fucks up things. For example when basic things get privatized, there are often problems because private companies just want to make money instead of delivering the best quality possible. Fully agree on privatizing e.g. water supplies is madness. My point was that the media landscape in Germany is reasonably far leftist and criticizing the post-communists has nothing to do with a hidden agenda, but everything with Linke's complete inability to offer realistic alternatives. They are good at criticizing, but completey worthless when it comes to presenting viable solutions. | ||
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Crytash
Germany251 Posts
Their existence alone acts (like with the early days of the green party) as a warning for the more established partys, so they consider a slightly social course to get the votes, who else would go to "Die Linke". Over all the people in germany are happy with the work the Bundestag does (over 50%), the CDU/CSU would get 41% of the votes if the election would be today - in basically a five party system. Nothing is perfect, but most people look around and see, that other countries got hit by the economy crisis way harder and our debt is stable at ~80% of our BIP. Nothing to spit at if you compare that to other major powers. | ||
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Taguchi
Greece1575 Posts
On August 23 2013 03:50 polarwolf wrote: I will vote for the AfD. The ongoing support (called "credit", although it is a known fact, that we won't get the money back) for Greece and other countries is the wrong thing to do in my opinion. They should take some responsibility for their over the top government spending. The German citizens are paying huge amounts of taxes, thanks to well working tax administration, while this kind of administration is not working in Greece, they are evading their tax payments. There was a statistic a few months ago, showing that the median acquired private property in Germany is lower than in most other European countries (also partly due to high tax payments), and this fact has been down played by media and politicians alike. The private wealth in the southern European countries is there, they just are unable or unwilling to take it from their own citizens and Germany and other "rich" northern European countries are partly financing their government spendings. In my opinion, we are paying for their public spendings, without having a right to vote - No taxation without representation. Another American idea I like is the concept of self-responsibility, instead of "solidarity", which has been corrupted to the point of extortion here in Europe. Just a little observation, since I remember that survey from a while ago. Median is the midpoint of the observation, whereas mean is the average of the observation. Every single EU country had homeownership rates above 50%, therefore their median was a homeowner. Germany had a homeownership rate a bit below the 50% mark, so their median was not a homeowner. Homeownership accounted for the vast majority of 'wealth' of any EU citizen. Draw your own conclusions about the presentation of the facts from the reporters. The actual study was ok, might be misleading if you couldn't read into nuances like that but at least it pointed out the nuances. Here's my take from that time, should read others' replies too obviously :p | ||
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Dulak
Finland33 Posts
On August 24 2013 01:16 Crytash wrote: Over all the people in germany are happy with the work the Bundestag does (over 50%), the CDU/CSU would get 41% of the votes if the election would be today - in basically a five party system. Nothing is perfect, but most people look around and see, that other countries got hit by the economy crisis way harder and our debt is stable at ~80% of our BIP. Nothing to spit at if you compare that to other major powers. Germany and especially it's export industry is the big winner of the euro, for now. Even your own ministry of finance knows this can not last (Google translated for the german impaired) and the rest of europe is suffering or is about to suffer from crushing austerity and inner devalvation leading to non-existant buying power, which will hurt German exports too in the long run. Things could be helped a great deal by taking back our freely floating national currencies and national central banks. As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. Please do us all a favor. Vote for whomever will do this. | ||
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lord_nibbler
Germany591 Posts
On August 24 2013 01:55 Dulak wrote: As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. It is a bit funny when people call Germany the 'leader of the Eurozone'. Germany has only 24% of the population and 27% of the GDP. Without serious support they can not lead anything. The 'Southerners' combined have more influence for example. | ||
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JustPassingBy
10776 Posts
On August 24 2013 00:22 SgtCoDFish wrote: Historically speaking, do the results of the German elections tend to serve as an indicator of what will happen in the European elections in Germany (since obviously that affects me and the German general election doesn't directly)? In the UK it's not usually a good indicator, but we have a wildly different system for general elections so people vote completely differently, whereas the german system is much closer to the european system. Since Merkel and the CDU/CSU seem so popular, are we likely to see a strong vote for the CSU/CDU (and therefore Europäische Volkspartei) in the European elections? I would doubt it, as Europe is only a minor topic during the national elections. | ||
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msl
Germany477 Posts
On August 24 2013 01:55 Dulak wrote: Germany and especially it's export industry is the big winner of the euro, for now. Even your own ministry of finance knows this can not last (Google translated for the german impaired) and the rest of europe is suffering or is about to suffer from crushing austerity and inner devalvation leading to non-existant buying power, which will hurt German exports too in the long run. Things could be helped a great deal by taking back our freely floating national currencies and national central banks. As the de facto leader of current europe, Germany has the duty to end this madness and lead the way. Please do us all a favor. Vote for whomever will do this. Thats a bit of a problem. The two main parties (SPD and CDU/CSU) are pretty much the same when it comes to Europe. And in all likelyhood we will end up with a coalition gouverment of those two, which means nothing much will happen the next four years at all. Regarding the dicussion about "die Linke" further up, the problem is that they are basicly blocking the place of a real modern left party with their communist notalgia version of being left, forcing the SPD to the center where they are not really distingushiable from the CDU at all. And since people seem to like Angie better then Peer we'll get her again. *sigh* | ||
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GeckoXp
Germany2016 Posts
On August 24 2013 01:16 Crytash wrote: What silent chill (hi there btw) points out is correct. Like the huge parts of the Pirateparty are most big parts of "Die Linke" not able to gover on the federal level, but this is not very important if you understand their whole point of their existence. Their existence alone acts (like with the early days of the green party) as a warning for the more established partys, so they consider a slightly social course to get the votes, who else would go to "Die Linke". Over all the people in germany are happy with the work the Bundestag does (over 50%), the CDU/CSU would get 41% of the votes if the election would be today - in basically a five party system. Nothing is perfect, but most people look around and see, that other countries got hit by the economy crisis way harder and our debt is stable at ~80% of our BIP. Nothing to spit at if you compare that to other major powers. Overall the people in Germany are happy that they get shows of Bohlen, Raab and all the other morons, too. It's not an indicator of quality. Also, nobody ever admits to be 'not happy'. That's a positivity bias. You get that if you ask in opinion polls, everywhere. Germans usually don't complain, they just go along and Merkel is a mastermind of making the masses believe her. It's horrible, I could puke whenever I hear 'alternativlos' or 'ergebnisoffen'. Phrases meaning she only waits for the masses to decide, while not acting whatsoever. Big surprise, she'll win again. Only, small hope, would be that the FDP would finally drop out, these damn morons and their jerks... Don't get me wrong, I agree with what people said about Die Linke, it's not a solution (nor do they offer one), but at least a little sign, that there are few wanting to have changes. I'd hope more silly parties like the Pirates and Die Linke would get higher percentages, simply to strengthen the message they send. It's really hard to be not pissed off at the course our big parties made in the past eight years, especially Merkel's party. Guess I'll never forget Roland Koch for his infamous "I can completely ignore the teens and their thoughts, they're just a vocal minority and not my voters anyways". ASFdasd.ff | ||
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Dulak
Finland33 Posts
On August 24 2013 02:09 lord_nibbler wrote: It is a bit funny when people call Germany the 'leader of the Eurozone'. Germany has only 24% of the population and 27% of the GDP. Without serious support they can not lead anything. The 'Southerners' combined have more influence for example. As the largest country with the deepest pockets it has all the influence it needs. The biggest winner of this failed experiment can walk away from it and help the scared politicians in smaller countries save face. No one wants to be the first to break ranks. The elite might like the euro but for the average Joe european it is a disaster. I can only hope that if Germany continues on the path of doing nothing but putting out fires we'll elect enough politicians with bigger balls in 2015 when its time for the Finnish elections. By then though our AAA will be gone and we'll be in a much bigger hole. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On August 24 2013 02:31 Dulak wrote: As the largest country with the deepest pockets it has all the influence it needs. The biggest winner of this failed experiment can walk away from it and help the scared politicians in smaller countries save face. No one wants to be the first to break ranks. The elite might like the euro but for the average Joe european it is a disaster. I can only hope that if Germany continues on the path of doing nothing but putting out fires we'll elect enough politicians with bigger balls in 2015 when its time for the Finnish elections. By then though our AAA will be gone and we'll be in a much bigger hole. who is that "biggest winner of this failed experiment" you talk about? you just linked an article describing how the EU has hurt Germany tremendously as it might still be quite decent, but got a lot poorer in comparision to other european countries in the meantime, despite the fairly good time we had throughout the crisis. | ||
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