EPTWhy nice guys finish last... - Page 2
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MoonfireSpam
United Kingdom1153 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
The typical "Nice guy" doesn't finish last because he's nice, he finishes last because he isn't sexual. If you see a women you like in a completely non-sexual way (hint: Madonna-whore-complex) it is almost impossible to build a sexual relationship. Without a sexual relationship you end with the guy having a huge random (most often "creepy" crush on the girl) and her not being sexually attracted. Instead, she rather grabs a guy who isn't exactly nice or great for a relationship but at least in tune with his own sexuality (usually referred to as "the bad guy"). Being "nice", "sexual" and "confident" aren't mutally exclusive. "Just have to be yourself" is among the most horrible advice you can give someone having trouble with women. Why? Because most people have no idea who they really are and have their head filled with social and moral expectations that have nothing to do with reality. Edit: "change is an illusion, will be written about in the future" - wat? I don't even... You're saying that if you're a "nice guy" you're born with it, will stay that way, one day find a woman that loves you this way and THEN will dump you for a "bad guy" anyway? Wat. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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r.Evo
Germany14081 Posts
"Being nice" includes things like holding doors open, bringing a gift a long or buying the girl a drink. The problem for most people new to the subject trying to understand where the line is drawn between "being nice" and "being rapport-seeking". If I'm talking to a girl for 30 minutes and am about to get up to get myself a drink asking "Do you want something too?" and bring one along, I'm being nice. If I ask her for the money (under most conditions) I'm being cheap. If I open with "Do you want something to drink?" or keep buying her her drinks in the above manner every time I meet her, I'm being the rapport-seeking "nice guy". (In the first case I'm trying to "buy" her time, in the second case I'm putting myself in a serving position and her on a pedestal.) The "cool" way to do things is usually between the extremes: Bring along the first drink and once they're finished up it's cool to ask: "Hey, first round was on me, what about you get the second round?" - that's neither cheap, nor nice, nor being an asshole. It's fair to both parties. "Nice guys" tend to put the other persons value above their own, "bad guys" tend to put their own value above that of others. Neither extreme works as well as the middleground. | ||
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divito
Canada1213 Posts
On November 04 2012 19:36 r.Evo wrote: You are off on so many levels it's not even funny. It starts with "Women who wear slutty clothes in clubs aren't women suitable for a long-term relationship" and ends with "The main thing is that whether you’re a nice guy, bad guy, or a girl looking for something more, you just have to be yourself." For one, that's not what I was saying. I was saying for some nice guys, seeing that good looking girl in the bar in the slutty clothes may not warrant what he is typically looking for in a long-term relationship. It was more hypothetical, and not literal at all. Notice I added the "<insert whatever you think is negative here>" as well. On November 04 2012 19:36 r.Evo wrote: The typical "Nice guy" doesn't finish last because he's nice, he finishes last because he isn't sexual. If you see a women you like in a completely non-sexual way (hint: Madonna-whore-complex) it is almost impossible to build a sexual relationship. Without a sexual relationship you end with the guy having a huge random (most often "creepy" crush on the girl) and her not being sexually attracted. Instead, she rather grabs a guy who isn't exactly nice or great for a relationship but at least in tune with his own sexuality (usually referred to as "the bad guy"). An extension of being comfortable in their own skin, and confident; no argument here. On November 04 2012 19:36 r.Evo wrote: "Just have to be yourself" is among the most horrible advice you can give someone having trouble with women. Why? Because most people have no idea who they really are and have their head filled with social and moral expectations that have nothing to do with reality. That's generally a cop-out to say people don't know who they are, because they're typically unsatisfied with what they see and ascribe to those very moral and social expectations that you mention. It's not a matter of some deep philosophical meaning about who one is in their essence. People have different traits, interests and personalities in line with their career, social settings and other areas. Once they accept and act who they are, and not what they think they should be, things will become easier. On November 04 2012 19:36 r.Evo wrote: Edit: "change is an illusion, will be written about in the future" - wat? I don't even... You're saying that if you're a "nice guy" you're born with it, will stay that way, one day find a woman that loves you this way and THEN will dump you for a "bad guy" anyway? Wat. My statement is more far-reaching than in terms of a relationship. Change, in behavioural aspects, is an illusion. I don't want to cloud up this thread with it right now. I will be trying to write about my theory in the future. | ||
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meteorskunk
Canada546 Posts
Some... ability to overlook one's own flaws and be like "hah, yeah, i'm fine. no big" is not always "nice" but it is useful. Say you're a sales associate for paint and you know that your knowledge is limited. You do, however, know enough to make one type of paint sound better than another. Will you use your words to affect someone's decision?? It's not nice but its useful, you see. Some people are able to say "yeah this is egg shell, very very lustrous and good (instert smart sounding bull shit)" and not feel they are being dishonest. I can't do this but it really helps. The customer is happy because he feels he got the right thin; you're happy cuz you got a sale. So here is where actual "niceness" might be a bad thing.. If you're "nice" you may want them to have the most honest representation possible. In consumer society however, many are deluded into wanting to buy an illusion.. So in this case Honesty < Being confident in your dishonesty. I believe This little equation can transfer over to dating. If you're with someone and you're worried about saying the right thing, you won't say much.. And you won't feel good, so you won't be able to actually be nice.. | ||
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
On November 04 2012 16:30 Vod.kaholic wrote: Ah yes, that's why we only see rich, beautiful people getting together and having children, right? of course other people also do it, but they either have no choice or they are irrational. lol | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
I used to be the nice guy, you just have to stop being afraid of touching women (I don't know why I used to make such a big deal out of this). I always try to be honest, genuine and confident. I don't think the "bad boy (just an asshole really)" stereotype is the best way to go. The reason he always has a girlfriend is because he talks to a lot of girls in a sexual manner, and doesn't care if things go south. If a nice guy talks to 10 girls, 1 one of them will probably like him too. The problem is that usually the nice guy is "obsessing" over this one girl who he deems to be perfect for him, and puts all his energy into her. Chances are pretty big she's one of the 9 out of 10 girls that isn't interested, and not the 1 out of 10 girl that is. In my experience it's perfectly fine to be a nice guy, I even highly prefer it, but you can't be afraid of building attraction through touch, and you can't put all your eggs in one basket. | ||
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meteorskunk
Canada546 Posts
On November 04 2012 23:35 Arcanefrost wrote: Nice guys don't fail becaus eof the things you mention, but because they're afraid to do anything sexual. In my eyes, a nice guy has good energy and connects with woman, but doesn't attract them on a level further than friends. I used to be the nice guy, you just have to stop being afraid of touching women (I don't know why I used to make such a big deal out of this). I always try to be honest, genuine and confident. I don't think the "bad boy (just an asshole really)" stereotype is the best way to go. The reason he always has a girlfriend is because he talks to a lot of girls in a sexual manner and doesn't care if things go south. If a nice guy talks to 10 girls, 1 one of them will probably like him too. The problem is that usually the nice guy is "obsessing" over this one girl who he deems to be perfect for him, and puts all his energy into her. Chances are pretty big she's one of the 9 out of 10 girls that isn't interested, and not the 1 out of 10 girl that is. In my experience it's perfectly fine to be a nice guy, I even highly prefer it, but you can't be afraid of building attraction through touch, and you can't put all your eggs in one basket. Yeah that's a good point. The guys who are more brazen are taking failure bettter, and will thus appear less fragile to a woman. This way she will not have to worry about hurting his feelings in the bedroom or something simple. THe "i don't give a eff" attitude is just kind of essential to have the courage to make things happen (sexually). I think like someone said earlier "using your balls" is what you gotta do. The purely biological energy of the psyche is called the id. I guess the id would just have sex in front of everyone right then and there if not for the ego formulating this energy into appropriate behaviour for the id to get what it wants. Most men have the id, the energy they need, however, incorporating it into appropriate behaviour is the challenge. For me at a bar, dancing with a woman is easy. I just have to go in, expect rejection and be kind of cool and then make my move with physical contact. Rejection happens quickly.. When it comes to using this energy in non-dance floor settings its more of a challenge. My guess is that i need to be able to say "down boy, down boy" to my balls a little bit better. | ||
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radscorpion9
Canada2252 Posts
On November 04 2012 12:44 rezoacken wrote: "Nice guys" is actually bad-wording when trying to describe that kind of guy: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://tremyror.files.wordpress.com/2011/10/lenoard.jpg) The problem is not that he is a nice person, polite and stuff. The problem is that he is... weak or soft. He let the girl walk over him and do what she wants. He doesn't express his own needs/wants. He has no passions and will quickly make a 180 just to please someone. That's being weak and having no personality. Girls want to have some fun. On the opposite side it's very wrong to say girls want to date bad people. Will she date an asshole ? probably. But it's not what she wants. The thing is, said asshole at least has a personality and that's somewhat attractive. She doesn't know at first glance its a bad person, she just hopes he will be different or that she can change it. Also it's important to remember, these people will also just have an easier time asking a girl out. The more you hit, the better your chances. Nice guys that don't try or wait 3years to do it will fail. <<Can't think of a good example>> So... what to do ? Just be in the middle. Be a good person but with a strong personality. Have passions, have beliefs, do not apologize for wanting to see a different movie and don't crawl. OH and most important... don't be afraid to actually ask the girl out !! Be more like these guys (but don't steal money !): + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-xPbiNaHqur0/TmsuY6eG2zI/AAAAAAAADYU/GcUds5IQzvk/s640/Ocean%2527s+Eleven+05.jpg) or that one since its a SC forum: + Show Spoiler + ![[image loading]](http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3443/3195181441_24fa6712cd_o.jpg) Oh and geek nice guys... remember, getting a degree is probably 20x harder than getting a girlfriend. Getting a perfect girlfriend however is pretty hard but you won't find THE ONE if you don't try out some first. Thank you rezoacken, I feel like you have words of wisdom  . Actually come to think of it, most people posting in this thread echo your sentiments. The nice guy finishing last is definitely a misnomer in general, it has little do with being nice | ||
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fire_brand
Canada1123 Posts
I know a few nice guys who are ridiculously popular, and a few that are woefully alone. The major difference is the popular guys are also confident, outgoing, and funny. The guys who are alone are generally quiet, and reserved. Girls are not going to notice you unless you make them notice you. I think a lot of nice guys are under the impression that everything they say has to be PC and composed, or emotional, or intellectual. If you stick to those guns you're going to have a tough time coupling up. As a nice guy you can still joke around, still say inappropriate stuff, and still be loud and boisterous, you just have to frame it all with the proper context. Now I'm not saying there aren't a lot of girls who don't love jerks. There is. And generally when you move into your mid 20s those are the ones who aren't in a committed relationship. Those, and the ones who are equally painfully introverted, like the aforementioned 'nice guys'. At the same time if you really are a genuinely nice guy, those are the types of girls you really don't want to be involved with anyways. They'll drop you for a shiny piece of colored glass, or just cheat on you unabashedly. Going back to what I said previously, I think what a lot of the self proclaimed nice guys failed to understand is that in the dating world there has to be a hook. It's ingrained into all mammals and 90% of animals. Mating hinges on a member of one sex attracting the other with some sort outward demonstration of availability and superiority. And then the other party acting upon that and approaching said actor. This holds true to humans as well. You have to do something to get a girl to notice you, or if you notice a girl, approaching her and making clear your intentions. In short, girls aren't mind readers. The impetus falls on you to make her realize what a great guy you are. Jerks do that well, mostly under false pretenses, but all girls know what he's selling. No one knows what you're selling if you're posting something anonymously on an internet forum populated by predominately males. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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meteorskunk
Canada546 Posts
On November 05 2012 00:40 Grumbels wrote: Girls must be really dumb to like people that aren't nice to them. Yeah. A smart guy like you never went silly over the hottest girl in the building who doesn't care about you or your feelings. Also, let us not forget that some male specimens are just naturally pumping with testosterone and hard muscles and appropriate levels of courage. This type does not know what it is to be marginalized like the guys who were never good at sports. It's never crossed their mind they are not competent because they so obviously are. Thus, it is not about whether or not they are nice. They'll get women if they're nice or if they're mean. It is their biology. They will maybe tend to be mean because they do not know how it feels to be on the losing end because they win, and when they lose they have all that reassurance to back them. Trying to figure out what it is about ther asshole-ishness is misguided. They're assholes because they can be and they get women because of their superior physical genes. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
To be honest, this entire internet fantasy of the bad guy that's stealing girls from the nice guy, what with his dashing good looks and carefree attitude, is just that: a fantasy. In real life girls are attracted to guys that are interesting and friendly. Why not be nice and interesting, instead of demonizing either one of the two qualities? | ||
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Arcanefrost
Belgium1257 Posts
On November 05 2012 01:05 meteorskunk wrote: Yeah. A smart guy like you never went silly over the hottest girl in the building who doesn't care about you or your feelings. Also, let us not forget that some male specimens are just naturally pumping with testosterone and hard muscles and appropriate levels of courage. This type does not know what it is to be marginalized like the guys who were never good at sports. It's never crossed their mind they are not competent because they so obviously are. Thus, it is not about whether or not they are nice. They'll get women if they're nice or if they're mean. It is their biology. They will maybe tend to be mean because they do not know how it feels to be on the losing end because they win, and when they lose they have all that reassurance to back them. Trying to figure out what it is about ther asshole-ishness is misguided. They're assholes because they can be and they get women because of their superior physical genes. Don't agree with this. Most bad boys aren't very good at sports, not to say that they don't play sports, but are just naturally cocky confident. The guys who are really good at sports are 99%¨of the time great guys, because it takes a lot of dedication and mental power to go that far in a certain branche. Pro soccer/nfl/ whatever players are all incredibly cool in my experience. | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
On November 05 2012 01:16 Arcanefrost wrote: Don't agree with this. Most bad boys aren't very good at sports, not to say that they don't play sports, but are just naturally cocky confident. The guys who are really good at sports are 99%¨of the time great guys, because it takes a lot of dedication and mental power to go that far in a certain branche. Pro soccer/nfl/ whatever players are all incredibly cool in my experience. What are you talking about? Please define 'bad boy' and 'nice guy' for me. | ||
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meteorskunk
Canada546 Posts
On November 05 2012 01:16 Arcanefrost wrote: Don't agree with this. Most bad boys aren't very good at sports, not to say that they don't play sports, but are just naturally cocky confident. The guys who are really good at sports are 99%¨of the time great guys, because it takes a lot of dedication and mental power to go that far in a certain branche. Pro soccer/nfl/ whatever players are all incredibly cool in my experience. Ok, for sure, both you and Grumbels have effective counter arguments. My main point, however, is that i believe there is a causality fallacy in most of the analysis here. Many are assuming that the asshol-ish side of a person is the reason he or she is attractive. What I am saying is that more likely ass hol-ishness is just a side effect of the thing that actually is the source of a person's attractiveness.. Their physical beauty and abundance of desirable sexual hormones showing through physicality or whatever... | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7032 Posts
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Mementoss
Canada2595 Posts
Lol the title made me remember this song from junior high. But yeah I think your generalizing a bit much, but I understand the point you were going for. | ||
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Kalingingsong
Canada633 Posts
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