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Hey DoA, I agree wholeheartedly with you, and heyoka also makes the important clarification that "not flamming" isn't the same as giving blizzard a free ride.
I think it's good to have a healthy debate over things we're passionate about, and we as a community have been abundantly frank with Blizzard that something needs to change. I worry that because of how fucking great the state of the game was for about a year we feel entitled to miss out on the roughness that comes with transition. SC2 has been a great game for a long time, and THE Esports posterchild for a long time. I think the community is suffering a little bit of only-child syndrome now having to share some of the spotlight with LoL, Dota 2, etc. That fear coupled with what has been a rough few weeks for SC2/Hots is I think where a lot of this frustration is coming from.
I've been feeling down the past few weeks myself with respect to SC2. This post really helped me get my mind in a better place! Keep up the positivity, DoA. You and Grubby are great positive voices in the scene.
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Great post Doa! This is exactly how I've felt about all this. The community reaction to the recent drama has been disappointing, at least the manner in which it's reacted. Hopefully people come to think more like this and we'll all be better for it. :D
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Some good points but with the current state and the way HoTS is being patched it's difficult to get my hopes up.
Especially for Terran, with the siege tank untouched with everything but bio largely unplayable.
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On October 22 2012 09:33 EngrishTeacher wrote:
Some good points but with the current state and the way HoTS is being patched it's difficult to get my hopes up.
Especially for Terran, with the siege tank untouched with everything but bio largely unplayable.
Blizz has said numerous times that they're patching the HotS units first, then WoL units.
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Yes.
There are alot of people who just dont know how to properly voice criticism.
There are some people that are easily susceptible to negativity.
There are people who just like to complain but dislike to use their brain (rhyme! )
All of those should really try to understand what doa says here. We dont need this negative shit to overrun the forums. It stunts growth. Gets us nowhere. Helps noone.
But there ARE ALSO people who know that as far as some topics are concerned, different, more aggressive approaches ARE needed. Lan support, Ability to change names, shared replay support - to name a few. There is no point in being nice about something that blizzard has ignored for such a long time.
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Good points. I didn't realise all the negativity that was coming from the community (including myself) in the hope of helping the game was actually hurting it.
The game is still great, I just want it to improve in the long run rather then become easier and more noob friendly.
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Great blog. Thanks for posting.
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I think blizzard employees have, after so many terrible posts on their forums, grown to be extract concepts and points from poorly thought out and/or aggressively toned posts.
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The things I see people being most "passionate" about are things they were being passionate about when Wings of Liberty was in beta. There are some critical things Sc2 has been missing since day 1. Blizzard hasn't listened and people are getting mad. I think there's going to be a period of anger in the community before people finally give up on their hopes. This isn't like Sc1 where someone like R1CH can just create a fix for us so Blizzard doesn't have to. There's stuff the game needs, and has needed, and will continue to need badly.
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On October 22 2012 10:46 Sinensis wrote:
The things I see people being most "passionate" about are things they were being passionate about when Wings of Liberty was in beta. There are some critical things Sc2 has been missing since day 1. Blizzard hasn't listened and people are getting mad. I think there's going to be a period of anger in the community before people finally give up on their hopes. This isn't like Sc1 where someone like R1CH can just create a fix for us so Blizzard doesn't have to. There's stuff the game needs, and has needed, and will continue to need badly.
I don't really feel that's the point of this thread. It's only normal to get frustrated at times, but lashing out emotionally is probably the worst way to try and change the thing that's bothering you.
"You made a decent game but if you change this I think it could be even better!" is probably more likely to get a point across than "If you don't change this your shitty game will die horribly"
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On October 22 2012 10:57 Vorenius wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 10:46 Sinensis wrote:
The things I see people being most "passionate" about are things they were being passionate about when Wings of Liberty was in beta. There are some critical things Sc2 has been missing since day 1. Blizzard hasn't listened and people are getting mad. I think there's going to be a period of anger in the community before people finally give up on their hopes. This isn't like Sc1 where someone like R1CH can just create a fix for us so Blizzard doesn't have to. There's stuff the game needs, and has needed, and will continue to need badly. I don't really feel that's the point of this thread. It's only normal to get frustrated at times, but lashing out emotionally is probably the worst way to try and change the thing that's bothering you.
"You made a decent game but if you change this I think it could be even better!" is probably more likely to get a point across than "If you don't change this your shitty game will die horribly"
"You made a decent game but if you change this I think it could be even better!"
That was in 2009, when Blizzard was just trying out the new platform.
Now it's 2012 and
"If you don't change this your shitty game will die horribly"
is starting to sound more appropriate.
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I'm going to just keep playing the game I love, watching the players I love to watch. Whatever comes of it, I'm certain others love the game more than I do and Ill always have someone to play with.
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On October 22 2012 02:33 Greenhit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 01:57 Glurkenspurk wrote:
Being overly positive and nice only makes it easier for people to walk all over you. Sometimes you need to get angry and start yelling to get shit done.
We tried being nice and Blizz has not done anything to help fix obvious issues with their game. This is the angry overentitled style that hes referring to I would imagine. Why not people just stop pretending they have any idea how to develop a game with the complexity and scale of a game like Starcraft? The PROS should have input, yes, but other then that, I doubt any change good or bad has been made just because a random average joe had some sort of input.
Question marks are floating around my head right now.
There's a difference between developing a game to make it "complex" and making it just fun to start with. >.>
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On October 22 2012 08:11 heyoka wrote:
This is really insightful on a deep level not only about StarCraft but how to approach problems in general, great post DoA. I hope some can take it to heart, this isn't about "being nice to Blizzard" as much as it is simply having the right perspective in being the catalyst for change. I stayed on TL over other websites for years because it was the only place that had an atmosphere that revolved around how much they loved what they did, as opposed to simply hating everything else and I hope we can keep that positive attitude going into the future.
It really makes a difference.
This is really well said, as is DoA's original post. Playing Starcraft 2 is fun, and a lot of what's been happening lately has not been and for no reason. People love the game, even if it's frustrating sometimes or even if people disagree with some of the decisions made by its designers. DoA also makes the excellent point that Blizzard has been open, to an unprecedented level, during the development of HOTS, and is really doing what they can do try and make it an excellent release.
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All these people who are chanting "SC2 is a dead game", in support of LoL have yet to play the game out. By that I mean they have yet to experience the game, grind it out (like how you would play a MMO). They've only reached a certain league, and has already deemed the game unworthy of further time investment. Their approach is time = reward and after 2-3 seasons of promotion-less grinds of just 5-10 games a week, they lose faith. I am not saying that everyone should be hardcore to truly appreciate the game for what its worth, but I have been one of those people that gave up on playing SC2 (remember big difference between playing and watching) because I was stuck in Platinum for around 5 seasons. My point is, DoA is right; we should approach the HOTS with a positive attitude. Afterall HotS is only in its beta phase, nothing is permanent and all we have to do is wait and see if blizzard takes up the voice of the community.
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People need to look at WoL battle reports from beta, and remember how bad WoL was.
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i agree with this wholeheartedly. the groundwork for SC2 is laid - this is the gaming engine we've got and the balance we started out with is where we have to go from. if that sounds like a doomed adventure to you then it sounds like you just don't like SC2, period, and maybe you should stop following it (and stop making posts about it - who do you think you're earning points from?)
i mean put it this way - balance was shitty in WoL beta, right? it got changed a couple dozen times until we got the release build, which still had severe imbalances but no one could possibly argue it wasn't at least an improvement. i'm not even going to go through all the balance tweaks and metagame shifts that have happened since release. you could write a massive essay on that. it should be obvious to everyone that every development, whether due to a balance tweak or players adapting, occurred because the game was being played. that's all that matters. not living up to the BW reputation. not having your cynicism proved right. the point is that people play the game, have fun doing so, and for e-sports that it be fun to watch and competitively (if not perfectly) balanced. if you're going to try to tell everyone that WoL is not noticeably more of all of these things since release, and especially since the launch of beta, then i dunno why you haven't bailed on SC2 already.
so, if no one plays HotS, if no one switches over to it, if pros go on record saying 'this sucks' and get a bunch of self-appointed internet warriors to repeat that everywhere, then yeah, the balance is gonna suck, no one will find a use for the units, blizzard won't be able to find ways to change them. basically what this mentality says to blizzard is 'make a new game for us' and that's not gonna happen. this is SC2. if people keep playing it, blizzard will keep patching it, and it will keep getting better. if it's doomed to fail in the end because it's a fundamentally flawed game or whatever, there's absolutely nothing you can do about it. i don't think that's the case but if it's true then enjoy it while it lasts.
i mean blizzard has just shown it's willing to pull stuff the community says sucks like the warhound and entomb, it drastically changed the mcore, and people in those threads were all about the "faith in blizzard restored!", but nothing changed. blizzard is doing exactly what they've been doing since the day WoL beta launched: they're paying attention to their game.
EDIT: in case i didn't make my point very well, what i'm saying is that IF the game is precariously close to failing, then there's nothing you can do about it, not that you shouldn't point out imbalances.
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As always, DoA is the man
Love your attitude, and I think the most important part of this post is just to realize the sky isn't falling quite yet (That's in a couple months) ;p
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Wait.. what.. ?
I understand the point DoA is trying to make, but people who are commenting does not i think,
"I can only agree, if people stop whinig about balance and emphasize the amount of fun it is to play this game people will come" .
Now why should we promote a game as fun, if there are major issues with the game, what people need to understand is that DoA is saying that we should criticise the game if there are flaws, but in a more muture and friendly way. However, i do not agree.
Sure if you are friendly and cuddly when criticising someone, the person getting the criticism will be more happy to embrace it and learn from it. But here we are not talking about a child, team-mate or friend, we are talking about a huge company who is trying to take a skill-based RTS game and turn into a casual any1-can-do it game so that they can sell more copies and earn more money, since even then youngest kids and the most braindead teenagers should ofcourse want to buy it if they can win a game or two.
Also, it has time and time again been proven that harsh methods have a way higher success rate than nice methods, take pet-training for example. You can take a mouse and teach it in X days to run through a maze if you give it cheese at the end (or whenever it makes a correct turn), but you can also teach it 8 times faster to run the maze if you give it an electrical shock whenever it takes a wrong turn. Ofcourse these methods have huge moral issues since you would be harming another living being.
These methods can also be applied when it comes to criticism, telling someone that they did something wrong and that if they do it again they will be punished will be 8 times more effective than pointing out when he does something right. But once again, moral issues since you would probably be scaring / hurting the persons feelings.
However, blizzard is not a person, it is a company that makes a profit out of doing stuff right, and lose profit from making stuff wrong. If we say "Hey guys, Z is wrong... if blizzard doesnt change it then i will probably not buy the game because of X." then that is alot better than saying "Hey guys, Y is very good and i will buy this game for sure."
You are not doing the SC2 community, the tournaments or the teams any favors by being soft and cuddly with blizzard. The only ones who will be making a profit from a flaved game that alot of people bought... is blizzard.
Next time anyone of you go out on a rant about how mean people are to blizzard and that they are scaring away players... perhaps its for the best, since blizzard might learn that they did something wrong and hopefully fix it so people can actually buy the game when its good.
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not really, that's like management skills 101, you don't go around threatening your employees with punitive retribution all the time, you will not get results that way, you'll just have a bunch of people who are too worried about losing their paycheck to take any initiative or do anything without being told first. so basically a stupid scared useless work force. not that the analogy holds up in this situation anyway.
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