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On October 24 2012 04:36 Irre wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On October 24 2012 02:07 Plansix wrote: If you take any cable network and look at the nightly viewership for a single show, it topped out at around 2-5 thousand nightly for their most popular shows. Day9 pulls in about 8-9K per daily every night. This is why people who don't play games care about Esports, because their numbers are compelling and the demographic is one that normally does not watch ads. No. you clearly did not understand the chart and you are incredibly naive to believe a TV show even the most random TV show would get <80,000 viewers. That chart is by the thousand..so its like 1.9-4 million a night...not 4000 lol. How could you possibly believe that Day9 is more watched than a primetime news show???
No, I just looked at the graphs quickly and did not notice the scale. I feel a bit stilly now. I did notice the shows the specific shows they were referencing at all. I blame the fact that I was at work and had been reading pleadings for 5 hours straight. Had I looked at it longer, I would have noticed the scale of the graphs. Sadly, that did not happen.
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It's hard to stay excited for a game that is both fundamentally and in execution suboptimal to when Blizzard rules with an iron hand and doesn't seem to give a fuck about the community and shows no plans or voices and desire to change any of these three thing.
Okey actually untrue. The community wanted a better interface, chats and clansupport that wasn't worse then what they did ten-fifteen years ago. They said it wasn't ready but promised to get that working in six months. Two years ago. They might as well be flipping the community the finger. What are their plans now? Chat support for hots, we can pray that will include clan support but realistically they will probably withhold that for LoV. Blackmailing.
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I know that we can be a better community, we are in time guys.
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On October 24 2012 06:14 risk.nuke wrote:
It's hard to stay excited for a game that is both fundamentally and in execution suboptimal to when Blizzard rules with an iron hand and doesn't seem to give a fuck about the community and shows no plans or voices and desire to change any of these three thing.
Okey actually untrue. The community wanted a better interface, chats and clansupport that wasn't worse then what they did ten-fifteen years ago. They said it wasn't ready but promised to get that working in six months. Two years ago. They might as well be flipping the community the finger. What are their plans now? Chat support for hots, we can pray that will include clan support but realistically they will probably withhold that for LoV. Blackmailing.
Can you back up any of those claims? When did they say they were work on clan support in 6 months? They have said they are adding in clan support for HotS along with other features. Have you been following they responses on the B.net forums? That they tested out the adjusted movment and found that it didn't do anything about the clumping issue? Or are you just here to complain and make claims that are only half true.
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On October 24 2012 06:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:14 risk.nuke wrote:
It's hard to stay excited for a game that is both fundamentally and in execution suboptimal to when Blizzard rules with an iron hand and doesn't seem to give a fuck about the community and shows no plans or voices and desire to change any of these three thing.
Okey actually untrue. The community wanted a better interface, chats and clansupport that wasn't worse then what they did ten-fifteen years ago. They said it wasn't ready but promised to get that working in six months. Two years ago. They might as well be flipping the community the finger. What are their plans now? Chat support for hots, we can pray that will include clan support but realistically they will probably withhold that for LoV. Blackmailing. Can you back up any of those claims? When did they say they were work on clan support in 6 months? They have said they are adding in clan support for HotS along with other features. Have you been following they responses on the B.net forums? That they tested out the adjusted movment and found that it didn't do anything about the clumping issue? Or are you just here to complain and make claims that are only half true.
It's from a video interview from two years ago. If I dedicated a couple of hours to tracking it down I could likely find it if it's still up somewhere but I don't care enough to do that. Believe me or don't believe me, it's your choice. I remember it well because I had plenty of great times with wc3 clans and I remember being excited for promised clan support.
And look what happened. It got pushed back and now we might need to pay money for it. Wouldn't surprise me the least if Blizzard decided to only implement it for the expansions.
As for the other claim. It is based on my opinion that WoL was fundamentally flawed. And if you agree with that then yes I can back up exacly why they are doing it again in HoTS and will probably do it for LotV aswell. We have ofcourse no idea what is going on behind the curtains for the end product but an educated guess is they won't turn around but follow how they did WoL and HoTS.
I don't wish sc2 to die but the truth is sc2 as it's currently looking won't last ten years as a great E-sports game. It's already had it's glorydays. It will get a boost when HotS is released and then another activity jump for LoV. After that it will decline and be a shadow after 2-3 years.
Sc2's only hope of lasting would be a complete or major revamp. Blizzard isn't likely to do that so the hope lies in the community's hands. But there is another problem, the community isn't and won't be motivated do attempt such a thing until Blizzard stops being an all controlling jerk (which they will remain until LotV stops earning them money). And then it will likely be to late.
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I am sick of all the threads about all the drama around SC 2 and how it is dying. At the end of the day SC 2 is a video game. We play for fun, we watch it for fun. Sure the pros play for money, but if they didn't enjoy playing it they wouldn't do it. IF SC 2 is dying then why are we not seeing a mass exodus of pros leaving SC 2. Why do we not see incontrol, idra, machine, Demuslim, and Puma playing LoL?
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On October 24 2012 06:28 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On October 24 2012 06:14 risk.nuke wrote:
It's hard to stay excited for a game that is both fundamentally and in execution suboptimal to when Blizzard rules with an iron hand and doesn't seem to give a fuck about the community and shows no plans or voices and desire to change any of these three thing.
Okey actually untrue. The community wanted a better interface, chats and clansupport that wasn't worse then what they did ten-fifteen years ago. They said it wasn't ready but promised to get that working in six months. Two years ago. They might as well be flipping the community the finger. What are their plans now? Chat support for hots, we can pray that will include clan support but realistically they will probably withhold that for LoV. Blackmailing. Can you back up any of those claims? When did they say they were work on clan support in 6 months? They have said they are adding in clan support for HotS along with other features. Have you been following they responses on the B.net forums? That they tested out the adjusted movment and found that it didn't do anything about the clumping issue? Or are you just here to complain and make claims that are only half true.
Modified movement was a silly idea that illustrated how the community will jump at solutions to perceived problems. The actual problem with the engine is different, more along the lines of units being too slippery and movement being too smooth, not to mention unit and interface design. There are quite a number of differences compared to Brood War and modified movement tried to fix all of it with one simple change, which made for a cool youtube video, but was never demonstrated to work for the real game. Nevertheless, Blizzard could have done something about the pathfinding and they didn't need a community video to set them on this path to begin with.
You see the same thing with Nony's carrier video. With a bit of knowledge about Brood War (which is accessible to them as surely they are in contact with progamers) they could have easily been aware of any issues with the carrier. The fact they removed the carrier without experimenting with changes like this is really quite incompetent. Blizzard actually admitted that after watching Nony's video they had maybe thought about implementing something along those lines, but it would have to be in the future, which to me is just silly. It wouldn't take that long to change and test, the only real concern would have been balance. It makes me think they're either understaffed and don't have time for more experimental changes (the multiplayer team consisted of three people, as far as I heard...) or perhaps changes to increase a unit's micro potential don't fit Blizzard's design philosophy, as the mechanics of it would be too tricky and casual unfriendly in many cases - even if the same thing was fine in Brood War.
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Anyone suggesting we should warm Blizzard to change their mind has not been following events since the release of WoL. Disappointments have been widespread with regards to features, units and balance from the start. TO THIS DAY some of these issues still haven't been addressed. Blizzard was fine with us giving them money for their product but didn't want to hear from the community on ANYTHING. It was top-down management and it's crashing and burning. People have invested their entire lives in BW and SC2. Training all day since school years. How are they rewarded? Not with a grand ol' tourney but by the introduction of the biggest joke in history - The Warhound. BW had momentum and SC2 had potential but Blizzard dropped the ball. I've been playing LoL for a week and I'm trying to figure out ways to give them money because their game is MILES AHEAD of SC2. To this day I've only played 4v4s and custom games in SC2 because I knew what BW was and how far they strayed with SC2. Haven't had the interest either way to learn about the game, play the game or follow the pro-scene. I've been watching the Korean scene because they have inherent enthusiasm that transcends bad games.
Perhaps the problem can be traced back to SPLITTING THE GAME IN 3 FROM THE START! Adding units throughout and mucking around with balance - what were you thinking would happen to the pro-scene? Players need to hone their skill but when you reset the board every 2 months and hard-reset the game every 3 years - HOW IS A VIEWER SUPPOSED TO FOLLOW? Abilities, damage, range, speed - nothing is sacred and can be changed by any whim from the programmers. They say they've been working on this game since 2004 / 5 - How is it that they still can't balance the multiplayer? Seriously - WTF Blizzard? You've had 8 years to test this out. Once you had a good thing you we're supposed to stop. BW didn't change. Lurkers under dark swarm we're broken but you found your way around it. Not patched it to infinity and back. And how did the OSL end? With a Protoss on top!! Over Terran and Zerg. The race that was considered inferior - in the right hands - became triumphant. An equal credit to map-makers, programmers and progamers.
Where does that leave us with HotS? What is going to happen with LotV? TL has already begun covering Dota2 which indicates that they know what's going on. LoL / Dota2 is a worthy successor. LoL is so much more fun to play than grinding 1v1s on ladder or watching MLG tournaments. I'm gonna miss following the progamers - foreign and korean. Unless they scrap LotV and focus on a FUN MULTIPLAYER, I don't see a future for the game. And no amount of sugar coating will change the fact that they are incompetent.
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On October 24 2012 08:34 HeeroFX wrote:
I am sick of all the threads about all the drama around SC 2 and how it is dying. At the end of the day SC 2 is a video game. We play for fun, we watch it for fun. Sure the pros play for money, but if they didn't enjoy playing it they wouldn't do it. IF SC 2 is dying then why are we not seeing a mass exodus of pros leaving SC 2. Why do we not see incontrol, idra, machine, Demuslim, and Puma playing LoL?
Gotta realize that when pros play sc2, they play sc2 for multiple reasons that probably are overwhelming that "viewership" that destiny gladly points out, here are some of them:
Skill - Pro players like Idra, Incontrol, Machine, Demuslim probably do NOT have the skill to play LoL... (yes I said skill, LoL is a baby to hardcore game skillwise depending on who you play with/against)
- Idra was the top THE TOP foreign player of scbw now obviously he isn't for sc2, each game has a set of skills to master, thus LoL and Sc2 and ScBw are different from each other. Players dont have skills to play games they have skills to play specific games or genres or if they do practice and try hard then yes they can be at the top level of "LoL" -> where everyone watches their stream (maybe balancing would fix this but I doubt it)
Genres - Pro players of sc2, probably love macro/micro over control of 1 hero. In Mobas or ARTS there is a set of heros withs their spells, ultimates, item build which incredibly do have a huge learning curve not to the extent of sc2 but a huge learning curve... pro players probably dont want to learn a knew stuff.
PS:
Think about players, I'm good I get money doing this, its a hobby yatatata, why would i switch to LoL... BUT LOOK AT THE SLayers team, teammates moving into LoL, yes its true. Players do switch games based on viewership (
Think about gamers retiring, once a player has his/hers spotlight then loses or goes into a big slump. we always see them not trying anymore... huk idra slumping they are. The major casters, probably make more then the average pro player.
TLDR: Pro players dont want to change, or dont give a fuck. they play cause they are good and look at the slayers disbanded members they switched to LoL
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On October 22 2012 02:45 Fyodor wrote:
Blizzard don't have great programmers. It's been true for a LONG time. Takes them forever to implement simple stuff and it always ends up being subpar. (WoW looked kinda crap next to the first Guild Wars, technology wise even though they released roughly in the same period. Starcraft II's technology isn't anything that eclipses CoH's or SupCom2 which is really sad. Diablo 3 is so inefficient it's not even funny.)
You're right, it's a big unwieldy company.
Big unwieldy companies often are rotten on the inside. (speaking from personal exp.)
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DOA has many good points in there.
The truth is its a matter of focus. look at chess. I compare sc2 to chess a hell of a lot. No body questions chess as a game anymore . You could always add more squares or some new pieces, but chess is chess. Everyone accepts it for what it is. Back off fools, and lets see what blizzard offers the world with hots on release.
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Also, I understand the uncomfortable situation SC2 lovers are in at the moment. Blizzard is experimenting with HOTS and splitting up the players. We have no firm ground to stand on right now. Therefore I understand the frustration that comes with being in limbo and can understand people like destiny(even though I could probably never be friends with him, I still respect him as a human with obvious weaknesses).
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No, the disappointing thing is the people in the community with the most to loose if sc2 flops should be the ones on the front lines fighting for a better game. They if anyone have the power to change things. But instead of standing up to blizzard and demand a better product they beg of the community to accept a bad product.
It's unbelievably selfish.
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It is depressing seeing how many people think that rational, logical, unbiased, critical thinking is just 'being nice' and that screaming and shouting and hurling abuse is the real way to get things done.
Unbiased critical thinking is a skill, one that happens to be useful for playing starcraft, I guarantee it is a skill that successful professional players have.
Also I would highly recomend looking up Aesops fables.
Here are some conclusions from them:
Be wary of advice prompted by selfishness
The loudest quarrels are often the most petty
Actions speak louder than words
Those who cry the loudest are not always the ones who are hurt the most
familiarity breeds contempt
I could go on.
The community is basically a PR machine for Starcraft, although it all comes from wanting hots to be the best it can be, parts of it currently seem to have launched a negative add campaign which will serve little other than to allienate existing and future fans and sponsors.
If you play strarcraft what is more useful, hurl abuse at your opponent and at blizzard to change things so you have an easier time. Or do you work out the reasons for why things went badly and ways to improve them?
Hots is currently in beta, that is the process by which it is worked on untill it gets to a stage where everyone is happy and it is ready for release. I can not remember half of the changes since wol beta, and am still watching/playing today
Here are a few more sayings:
Whoever is dissatisfied in one place will seldom be happy in another
By asking for too much, we may lose the little that we once had
I enjoy playing and watching starcraft, if it becomes no longer enjoyable I will simply stop. These forums at their best can be a place for a constructive sharing of ideas in a common interest. If it turns into angry posts of everying is terrible we want more/better now now now then I may stop useing them. It hurts everyone involved.
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On October 24 2012 04:15 Fandango wrote:
Yay a post that bottles the 'it's not a real opinion if you use colourful language' mantra
Yeah he didn't actually say that at all. In fact, he freely admits some of the negative postings make valid points. You might want to read the blog again if you are going to comment on it.
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Great post DoA. It's refreshing to hear well thought out, valid points that aren't filled with personal digs and sarcasm that just distract from the overall message and make all the work you put into making yourself sound intelligent wasted. I respect that.
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Yes! Let cooler heads prevail.
May this game not be a casualty to the vitriol of Internet fans (and those that love to hate the game). Diablo 3 paid the price to poor design. Other game studio releases have bombed. We've got a chance here to resist the urge of full criticism until its perfect. If some strange things make it through the beta, continued discussion of what needs changing and why will help. Don't make new customers go aghast at reading how C sucks, games broken, B sucks more, don't even try in XvY. Choose caution and the middle path. Starcraft 2 isn't what it was day 1, day 60 of the beta or day 1 day 60 of game release. Grow it together.
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gj doa, say it like it is. If only people could see it this way, then we could actually see some improvement in the number of players...all this negativity in the forums and community definitely makes it look like sc is losing popularity...I honestly think it's overrated. Sc can only dominate for so long, but that doesn't mean it's lost its edge!
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All of these "calm down" posts lately keep focusing on the competitive aspect of SC2 and how that's still doing quite fine and whatever. It is, but that's not the biggest concern, and it's why just about everyone who's important in the "scene" is overlooking/dismissing Destiny's thoughts outright. The casual fan base that was a huge part of BW because of the custom maps and chat interface for social interaction largely feels left out in SC2. Even this new leveling thing coming out with the next HotS beta patch is still focused on ladder/competitive play.
There's still very little incentive for custom map makers to make new and exciting games for people to play, mostly because of how limited the Arcade makes everything. It's in this way that SC2 is getting dominated by other games recently, and losing it's casual fan base, which is what keeps games alive and thriving for so long.
I would also like to point out that one of the reasons BW was on top for so long is because it had no real competitors going on at the same time. This is very much not the case for SC2.
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On October 22 2012 02:33 Greenhit wrote:Show nested quote +On October 22 2012 01:57 Glurkenspurk wrote:
Being overly positive and nice only makes it easier for people to walk all over you. Sometimes you need to get angry and start yelling to get shit done.
We tried being nice and Blizz has not done anything to help fix obvious issues with their game. This is the angry overentitled style that hes referring to I would imagine. Why not people just stop pretending they have any idea how to develop a game with the complexity and scale of a game like Starcraft? The PROS should have input, yes, but other then that, I doubt any change good or bad has been made just because a random average joe had some sort of input.
So you're saying a multi-billion dollar company can't develop a game that has simple features the community wants?
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EPT
