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DPS in SC2 and its effect on the game - Page 3

Blogs > Masayume
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Darkomicron
Profile Joined November 2010
Netherlands216 Posts
July 11 2012 00:59 GMT
#41
Great read and excellent race-specific observations. Well written!
"Night will fall, and so will you"
Bwenjarin Raffrack
Profile Joined November 2008
United States322 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-11 01:22:06
July 11 2012 01:21 GMT
#42
Just to clarify for everyone, the cooldowns for BW units on Liquipedia are listed in frames. Normal game speed is 15 frames per second, and fastest is 24 frames per second. Thus, sieged tanks fire every 5 seconds on normal game speed. Extrapolate accordingly.

Also, the duration of psionic storm in BW isn't 8 seconds, but the damage is delivered in 8 steps of 14 damage every 8 frames. Thus, after the 8 frame casting animation, the total duration of damage for psionic storm is 64 frames. That's 42 damage per second on fastest game speed.
I'm not as thunk as dreople pink I am.
pique
Profile Joined August 2011
143 Posts
July 11 2012 04:42 GMT
#43
I'm still not convinced that the raw DPS of SC2 units is the problem. More and more it seems to me the pathing and delimited control group size is the reason for death balls/snowballing advantages/lack of defenders advantage. When it's an effortless job to have all your units attacking simultaneously it seems likely that these undesirable game states will arise.
ShadeR
Profile Blog Joined December 2009
Australia7535 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-11 07:18:28
July 11 2012 07:18 GMT
#44
Maybe DPS isn't the issue but rather that in SC2 is too "easy" to extract the maximum possible DPS.
DPS is a complete non-issue in BW, I've never heard of it coming up ever.
Edit: Pique is spot on.
Masayume
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Netherlands208 Posts
July 11 2012 10:48 GMT
#45
I agree that the higher density of DPS plays a big role right now. I did some calculations with the frame info from BW and for most units the DPS in SC2 is still between 10 and 20% higher it seems. That might not sound like much but in combination with said higher density and cost and supply efficiency/distribution seems to limit the bounds of where good players can take the game.
Balance. Enjoy the process instead of focusing on musts.
bourne117
Profile Joined May 2010
United States837 Posts
July 12 2012 05:27 GMT
#46
On July 11 2012 03:53 Blazinghand wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 11 2012 01:26 Masayume wrote:
Here is where the comparison to BW Psi storm comes in.

In BW, a Psi Storm deals 112 damage over ~8 seconds in ticks of 14 damage. It deals this damage over a larger radius as well but deals its damage a lot slower than a Psi Storm from SC2. Because of the lower DPS, there is more time to move out of the affected area before critical damage is reached. For the player using the Psi Storm, it controls a larger area of the playing field for a longer time than a SC2 Psi Storm would.

Battles that involve Psi Storm last longer now and allow for more control for both the casting and receiving player. There is more time for production waves of units to finish and for reinforcements to arrive, further increasing the duration of fights and their aftermaths. Comebacks are also slightly easier to be made when more production waves can finish before the enemy stands at your doorstep.


I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm.

Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units.

No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do.

The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend.

I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game.

BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use.

I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW.

And that's okay.

They're different games.

If anyone wants to know the main problem with SC2 it is this right here. I use to not fully realize just how hard BW is but after playing it with a friend of mine I fully understand. Playing as zerg it can be a challenge just to attack with your army together and becomes harder the longer the game goes. Everything in the game was more difficult especially unit control.This creates a situation where the level you can play at and maximize your units is almost limitless. (Day9 did a video about game design where he discusses this a little bit worth checking out)
After playing more BW and watching it more I understand the gripes about SC2 and really hope that Blizzard can figure out some way to bring back this feeling of almost limitless potential in units again.
QO Feasting
Masayume
Profile Blog Joined March 2011
Netherlands208 Posts
Last Edited: 2012-07-12 12:00:33
July 12 2012 12:00 GMT
#47
After receiving good feedback from posters in this blog, I altered examples, recalculated values, added examples and streamlined the content into a thread in the SC2 general forum. You can find it in the link below.

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352100

Thank you for all the good feedback! <3

Also updated the original post to refer people to the thread!
Balance. Enjoy the process instead of focusing on musts.
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