EPThttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352100
Thank you for all the good feedback! <3
DPS in SC2 and its effect on the game
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352100 Thank you for all the good feedback! <3 | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On July 11 2012 01:26 Masayume wrote: It is time to check out the Siege Tank from BW. When it is in siege mode, it will deal 70 damage per shot, with a cooldown of 7,5 seconds. This means that the frontload damage of the BW Siege tank is extremely high, but it takes a while before consecutive shots are fired. There's actually no way this is correct. A siege tank fires much, much quicker than once per 7.5 seconds, even in siege mode. I'm not some amazing pro BW player but I'm 100% sure a sieged tank fires more often than this. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
It still does not change the nature of the argument though. Hopefully someone can verify your comment asap. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
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Serpest
United States603 Posts
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
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XCetron
5226 Posts
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
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Woj
United States133 Posts
Difficult to say if I agree or not but your point makes sense and held my attention :D | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
You have to consider the other affects as well, though. While most of what you said is true, it means that planning ahead/positioning for battles is more important, preventing harass/drops in the first place are even more important, scouting is more important, things like this. Because things can happen so fast, being proactive and having good map awareness become much more valuable and important. Whether this is "good game design" or not is up for debate, but you have to consider the abilities/skills that the dps increases rewards, besides just moving deathballs around. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318019 a stimmed marine in both brood war and sc2 has 10.5 dps, for example. the 75 cooldown in bw is 75 frames. Not exactly sure how that translates to second, exactly. Might figure out a little more from: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=12115 From what i see i think it's 20 frames per second, meaning a siege tank with 75 cooldown attacks 75/20 = every 3.75 seconds, which is pretty close to every 3 seconds of sc2. -edit- methinks the actual overall dps increase is from the improved ai and the bunching up of units. | ||
Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
EDIT: Never mind, the guy above me is probably right. SC2 has a lot higher dps per area due to unit clumping, though. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
I don't have the strength to calculate everything right now but I am pretty sure that this still speeds the game up enough to create all the situations outlined in my post. And it's true that higher dps can reward certain plays as well. But in most cases, it seems to limit options. Thank you for giving good feedback though. It is good to have proper discussions about the game close to the release of a Beta. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
Anyway, yes, the high dps of SC2 is IMO the main reason why the game isn't as interesting as BW was in its prime. When fights end in a few seconds, there's very little potential for micro and tactics and it just comes down to composition, position and reaction time. | ||
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Brandhor
482 Posts
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
On July 11 2012 01:26 Masayume wrote: Here is where the comparison to BW Psi storm comes in. In BW, a Psi Storm deals 112 damage over ~8 seconds in ticks of 14 damage. It deals this damage over a larger radius as well but deals its damage a lot slower than a Psi Storm from SC2. Because of the lower DPS, there is more time to move out of the affected area before critical damage is reached. For the player using the Psi Storm, it controls a larger area of the playing field for a longer time than a SC2 Psi Storm would. Battles that involve Psi Storm last longer now and allow for more control for both the casting and receiving player. There is more time for production waves of units to finish and for reinforcements to arrive, further increasing the duration of fights and their aftermaths. Comebacks are also slightly easier to be made when more production waves can finish before the enemy stands at your doorstep. I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm. Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units. No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do. The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend. I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game. BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use. I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW. And that's okay. They're different games. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25553 Posts
I'm gonna take a look at your example of muta harass. Regardless of whether or not they deal more damage (since it's unclear how the dps mechanism works), in BW, your muta stack capped out at 11 and it was hard as hell to use. You'd swing it around and do some harass, but eventually you'd be getting your lurkers and making more hatches or whatever. Fundamentally, you will not be building some massive death mutalisk force, and even if you did, it'd be enormously difficult to use in any real fashion. In Sc2, however, during their time of popularity people would make like 30 mutalisks and harass with them and shit on turrets and marines and mineral lines. Was this because mutalisks had more dps? No, of course not, it's because in BW you literally couldn't harass with more than a certain number of mutalisks unless... I guess if you were literally insane and had 9 hands you could control 2 stacks at once, but good luck trying to macro while doing it. The issue isn't DPS, it's not how long it takes for mutas to shit on a mineral line (they've always been good at that). The issue is the fundamental mechanics of the agme. | ||
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chambertin
United States1704 Posts
[QUOTE]On July 11 2012 01:26 Masayume wrote: No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms were legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do. [QUOTE] ahem, are. For just a tick longer... are. T_T | ||
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