EPThttp://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352100
Thank you for all the good feedback! <3
DPS in SC2 and its effect on the game
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352100 Thank you for all the good feedback! <3 | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 11 2012 01:26 Masayume wrote: It is time to check out the Siege Tank from BW. When it is in siege mode, it will deal 70 damage per shot, with a cooldown of 7,5 seconds. This means that the frontload damage of the BW Siege tank is extremely high, but it takes a while before consecutive shots are fired. There's actually no way this is correct. A siege tank fires much, much quicker than once per 7.5 seconds, even in siege mode. I'm not some amazing pro BW player but I'm 100% sure a sieged tank fires more often than this. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
It still does not change the nature of the argument though. Hopefully someone can verify your comment asap. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
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Serpest
United States603 Posts
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
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XCetron
5225 Posts
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
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Woj
United States133 Posts
Difficult to say if I agree or not but your point makes sense and held my attention :D | ||
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HardlyNever
United States1258 Posts
You have to consider the other affects as well, though. While most of what you said is true, it means that planning ahead/positioning for battles is more important, preventing harass/drops in the first place are even more important, scouting is more important, things like this. Because things can happen so fast, being proactive and having good map awareness become much more valuable and important. Whether this is "good game design" or not is up for debate, but you have to consider the abilities/skills that the dps increases rewards, besides just moving deathballs around. | ||
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Fishgle
United States2174 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=318019 a stimmed marine in both brood war and sc2 has 10.5 dps, for example. the 75 cooldown in bw is 75 frames. Not exactly sure how that translates to second, exactly. Might figure out a little more from: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=12115 From what i see i think it's 20 frames per second, meaning a siege tank with 75 cooldown attacks 75/20 = every 3.75 seconds, which is pretty close to every 3 seconds of sc2. -edit- methinks the actual overall dps increase is from the improved ai and the bunching up of units. | ||
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Demonhunter04
1530 Posts
EDIT: Never mind, the guy above me is probably right. SC2 has a lot higher dps per area due to unit clumping, though. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
I don't have the strength to calculate everything right now but I am pretty sure that this still speeds the game up enough to create all the situations outlined in my post. And it's true that higher dps can reward certain plays as well. But in most cases, it seems to limit options. Thank you for giving good feedback though. It is good to have proper discussions about the game close to the release of a Beta. | ||
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Tobberoth
Sweden6375 Posts
Anyway, yes, the high dps of SC2 is IMO the main reason why the game isn't as interesting as BW was in its prime. When fights end in a few seconds, there's very little potential for micro and tactics and it just comes down to composition, position and reaction time. | ||
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Brandhor
482 Posts
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 11 2012 01:26 Masayume wrote: Here is where the comparison to BW Psi storm comes in. In BW, a Psi Storm deals 112 damage over ~8 seconds in ticks of 14 damage. It deals this damage over a larger radius as well but deals its damage a lot slower than a Psi Storm from SC2. Because of the lower DPS, there is more time to move out of the affected area before critical damage is reached. For the player using the Psi Storm, it controls a larger area of the playing field for a longer time than a SC2 Psi Storm would. Battles that involve Psi Storm last longer now and allow for more control for both the casting and receiving player. There is more time for production waves of units to finish and for reinforcements to arrive, further increasing the duration of fights and their aftermaths. Comebacks are also slightly easier to be made when more production waves can finish before the enemy stands at your doorstep. I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm. Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units. No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do. The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend. I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game. BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use. I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW. And that's okay. They're different games. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I'm gonna take a look at your example of muta harass. Regardless of whether or not they deal more damage (since it's unclear how the dps mechanism works), in BW, your muta stack capped out at 11 and it was hard as hell to use. You'd swing it around and do some harass, but eventually you'd be getting your lurkers and making more hatches or whatever. Fundamentally, you will not be building some massive death mutalisk force, and even if you did, it'd be enormously difficult to use in any real fashion. In Sc2, however, during their time of popularity people would make like 30 mutalisks and harass with them and shit on turrets and marines and mineral lines. Was this because mutalisks had more dps? No, of course not, it's because in BW you literally couldn't harass with more than a certain number of mutalisks unless... I guess if you were literally insane and had 9 hands you could control 2 stacks at once, but good luck trying to macro while doing it. The issue isn't DPS, it's not how long it takes for mutas to shit on a mineral line (they've always been good at that). The issue is the fundamental mechanics of the agme. | ||
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chambertin
United States1704 Posts
[QUOTE]On July 11 2012 01:26 Masayume wrote: No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms were legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do. [QUOTE] ahem, are. For just a tick longer... are. T_T | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 11 2012 04:11 chambertin wrote: ahem, are. For just a tick longer... are. T_T Ah yes, my apologies. I'll go fix that. The point still stands though: storms are good, but hard to use. like most things in bw. | ||
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ScythedBlade
308 Posts
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archonOOid
1983 Posts
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Arcane86
United States68 Posts
In a recent interview, Dustin Browder made it a point to note that simply porting over Psi-Storm into SC2 was broken as hell because the AI is better at clumping units together. They spent a ton of time tinkering with it to make it balanceable, and still wound up having to remove Khaydarin Amulet. It may be worth considering how these changes that made the game "smarter" plays into not only "skirmish" v. "deathball" but also game design to begin with. | ||
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Asday
United Kingdom388 Posts
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
What I do want is for StarCraft 2 to grow in depth and options. The only reason I reference to BW most of the time is because it is always easier to use an existing example of something to try to explain something. I think Starcraft 2 is at a good place right now, but as HotS is drawing closer I wanted to take the time to write about things that I personally think held WoL back from being even more enjoyable. The new units are a step in the right direction, but I simply wanted to share my thoughts in order to help figure out what the underlying causes of the sometimes limited gameplay options are in the matchups. And if you want to reread my posts, you will see that I simply drew comparisons, and didn't actually advocate we go back to the BW mechanics or anything of that nature. That is not the intention and point of discussion for this blog either. | ||
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larse
1611 Posts
1, reduce the Faster Game Speed by 10%. This gives players the reaction time you mention, and thus the incentive to micro. 2, add a button to allow modified movement. That is, units will move in their original formation with different speed. See here for more details: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=349968 Because when HOTS comes out, they will have to rebalance the game. So why not just add these two changes--they are going to rebalance the game anyway. | ||
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jeeneeus
1168 Posts
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Roe
Canada6002 Posts
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
Real reason splash is more effective in SC2 is due to clumping not any dps difference which is tiny. | ||
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Qwyn
United States2779 Posts
On July 11 2012 05:30 Asday wrote: I don't like you. Everything I've seen you post, (which isn't much), just comes off as you wishing SC2 was BW, when it really really shouldn't me. Last I checked, SC2BW was pretty good. Try that out, instead, if you want an HD remake. I don't like you either. Last time I checked SC2 was a mediocre game that could be SO much better. Game quality is objective. BW is better than SCII as both a spectator sport and competition wise. SCII just has more funding b/c it is rendered on a modern engine and has Blizzard's backing. But as a game it's inferior. SCII should take things from its predecessor, if it's so busy killing it off. | ||
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WolfintheSheep
Canada14127 Posts
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
AzureD, the DPS as a pure value expressed in game time is close to the same yes, but the DPS in Real-time is delivered faster in SC2. This is what makes deathballs more favourable in SC2 combined with the high density of DPS (read clumped and more DPS uptime). | ||
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AzureD
United States320 Posts
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Narcind
Sweden2489 Posts
On July 11 2012 06:56 Masayume wrote: Roe, that's a great point. You are completely right, the old BW tank did not have smart fire. Players would often send a few units ahead to tank volleys and take spider mine damage. For the rest you still really wanted to spread your units out properly over the side that wouldn't be hit by stasis. AzureD, the DPS as a pure value expressed in game time is close to the same yes, but the DPS in Real-time is delivered faster in SC2. This is what makes deathballs more favourable in SC2 combined with the high density of DPS (read clumped and more DPS uptime). People do this in sc2 too, throwing out a couple of well spaced out infested terran eggs to draw fire from tanks while lings run in, for example? And people simply have deep tank lines so they get completely raped by every tank firing at 1 ling. | ||
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L3gendary
Canada1470 Posts
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
However the cooldown on BW siege tank is faster than 7.5 seconds. | ||
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On July 11 2012 09:03 sluggaslamoo wrote: Siege Tank fire is much faster in SC2 than BW. However the cooldown on BW siege tank is faster than 7.5 seconds. Yeah after some research I can confirm both of these. Also, the kinds of damage units deal works a bit differently in BW in terms of bonus damage-- tanks deal less damage against small units, but always deal full damage to shields, making them modestly more effective against zealots and intensely more effective against archons than their Sc2 counterparts. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
Yes dps is higher in sc2 BUT hitpoints are also quite a bit higher. Marauders, thors, ultralisks, roaches, immortals, colossus, queens, broodlords, even the Archon is a lot tankier due to being a purely massive/psionic unit. So it kind of balances out in generally. But looking into specific matchups you see questionable stuff like the tank being appalling versus protoss units, hence the battle hellion and warhound. | ||
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MNdakota
United States512 Posts
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Darkomicron
Netherlands216 Posts
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Bwenjarin Raffrack
United States322 Posts
Also, the duration of psionic storm in BW isn't 8 seconds, but the damage is delivered in 8 steps of 14 damage every 8 frames. Thus, after the 8 frame casting animation, the total duration of damage for psionic storm is 64 frames. That's 42 damage per second on fastest game speed. | ||
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pique
143 Posts
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ShadeR
Australia7535 Posts
DPS is a complete non-issue in BW, I've never heard of it coming up ever. Edit: Pique is spot on. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
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bourne117
United States837 Posts
On July 11 2012 03:53 Blazinghand wrote: I'd like to say I think your basic point, which is that "armies in sc2 destroy each other too quickly and easily", is correct, but again I think that psi storm in BW was devestatingly strong, like amazingly strong, with a massive AoE and huge burst damage, the likes of which perhaps you have never experienced. The Sc2 psistorm is but a pale shadow of the BW psistorm. Anyone who's played BW extensively HAS seen fights turn very quickly when certain units were brought into play, such as vessels, tanks, storms, reavers, lurkers, etc. The reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW wasn't that there was somehow less dps or spells and units were slower at dealing damage-- in fact, most units, such as the tank, reaver, storm, etc, dealt massive, massive burst damage to many units. No, the reason armies destroyed each other more slowly in BW has to do with the way they are controlled, the lack of smartcast, the pathing, and the low unit selection delimiter. You want to know why Jangbi's storms are legendary? Because properly used, storms rip though everything, and BW is a damn hard game to play. Go play BW against your friend, and try doing ANYTHING the pros do. The reason Sc2 seems boring and flat to some has to do with the fundamental mechanics of the game. Does the colossus or marine have too much dps? sure, maybe. But that's definitely not the problem. The problem of overpowered units haunts BW as well. That just makes things hilarious. The problem is that Sc2 is a game where you can control 255 units at once, and you can command your army to attack as easily as your opponent can defend. I used to accuse my cousin, a protoss player, of 1a2a3aing me. You know why? Because even with 70 food of army, 1a2a3a is the FASTEST he can get his whole army to move. Even 1aing was harder in that game. BW is a monumental struggle to have enough apm to get everything done. Every race has ridiculous overpowered units and spells of all varieties, and it's all impossible to use. I may not be explaining things well, and who knows, maybe I'm wrong, I was a shitty BW player and still am. But the idea that making all the units kill each other slower will get rid of deathballing is preposterous. As long as its' as easy to control 255 units as it is to control 12, and as long as the game doesn't get exponentially more difficult as you add more units and bases and try to keep everything running, Sc2 will never be BW. And that's okay. They're different games. If anyone wants to know the main problem with SC2 it is this right here. I use to not fully realize just how hard BW is but after playing it with a friend of mine I fully understand. Playing as zerg it can be a challenge just to attack with your army together and becomes harder the longer the game goes. Everything in the game was more difficult especially unit control.This creates a situation where the level you can play at and maximize your units is almost limitless. (Day9 did a video about game design where he discusses this a little bit worth checking out) After playing more BW and watching it more I understand the gripes about SC2 and really hope that Blizzard can figure out some way to bring back this feeling of almost limitless potential in units again. | ||
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Masayume
Netherlands208 Posts
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=352100 Thank you for all the good feedback! <3 Also updated the original post to refer people to the thread! | ||
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