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Nothing is OP.
You are all crazy.
Look... if you're having under 50% win ratio in your matchups, it's not balance, it's because you suck and you fell behind the curve of top competition.
Foreignor terrans wouldn't beat someone like DRG or Nestea very often in ZvT anyway. It's not because of balance, it's because they aren't as good as the other player.
TLPD graphs show that most matchups are DAMN close to 50%. And think about it this way.. a sample size is only so big. I
Imagine a bo5 series, where 3/5 games MVP decides to do a greedy macro style build, and is metagamed by his zerg opponent, and loses 0-3 for Terran.
On the contrary, MMA is playing a simultaneous bo5 in professional play, where he tries an all in strategy three/5 games and wins 3-0 for Terran.
Also, we have someone foreign terran player playing against a korean zerg in an online tournament. The terran tries his best but loses 1-2 in some very macro oriented games.
^^ Do you see where "win rates" don't mean shit? One terran tried macro play and got metagamed. Those count as losses. One terran all inned and won. Those are wins. One terran won and also lost, playing macro games. Im sure another terran lost 0-2 doing all ins. Add in every player's personal style, and skill gaps that happen in tournaments from easy/hard brackets... and your "TLPD winrates" don't mean jack shit.
You can take this further when certain progamers play other progamers. Everyone has their own strengths and weaknesses; some players study their opponent better than others; some are better or worse at exploiting weaknesses in certain situations, and some are slightly better or worse at exploiting advantages, etc....Wanna go further? Add "fate" into the equation....
As far as all of your personal ladder matches--> there's no golden rule that says you ever have to be 50% in any of your matchups. If you're 30% at TvZ, it's because you suck at it.
I personally lose constantly vs terran, despite your claims of "imbalance". I am high masters/ relatively high master on kor as well.
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On June 18 2012 10:01 kerpal wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 08:13 FinestHour wrote:
[...] the sad fact is that 5-6 queens and 2 spines beat every single kind of attack before ten minutes. No competent zerg loses to any kind of timing attack these days and if you don't succeed in killing a fair amount of drones you might as well just leave. 5-6 queens and 2 spines? are you suggesting that the zerg investing 1100 minerals into purely defensive units should be insufficient to hold an all-in? if you made 7 bunkers and took a fast 3rd, would you be upset to lose to an all-in? probably. ghost nerf was absolutely necessary. The idea that you could mass just ghosts and completely counter every zerg unit was horrible. I can't find it now but someone else said that terran 'can't afford to be building ghosts because all they do is counter infestors' which is insane, because if you get rid of the infestors, you can kill any zerg composition with marine tank, including broods. not that you ever as terran need to actually engage broods. for all you complaining about how the big maps favour zerg, think about trying to get your infestor brood force across one of them. NIGHTMARE. terran can drop 2 of your bases, while just walking his army around yours and countering. if i were giving advice i would say + Show Spoiler +fast 3rd base strats are the way to go. maybe it's just me, but i feel like every zvt i play i think at some point 'wow, i really hope he hasn't taken a 3rd yet because i'd have no way to pressure it with these lings, i'm just starting infestors and i can't really be aggressive until i have ultras' but i hear that that is stupid, so i won't say that. personally, i win most of my zvt, but i won most of the macro zvts i played before, i just died to hellion runbys more back then. I suck at zvp, so i think my MMR is dropped by my zvp to the point where i'm facing weaker terrans than i should. I find that zvp feels to me the OP says tvz feels to him. No chance to pressure, no all-in for them to be scared of, forced to just try to be greedy and hope that i can predict and counter any all-in without sacrificing my chance to get to broods, which are just as clumsy and slow in zvp as they are in zvt.
Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
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In the next patch, all Terran weapons are replaced with whoopi cushions and silly string.
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lol -_- really? This reminds me of BW-era luckyfool QQ......what shame.
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On June 18 2012 10:13 FinestHour wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 10:01 kerpal wrote:On June 18 2012 08:13 FinestHour wrote:
[...] the sad fact is that 5-6 queens and 2 spines beat every single kind of attack before ten minutes. No competent zerg loses to any kind of timing attack these days and if you don't succeed in killing a fair amount of drones you might as well just leave. 5-6 queens and 2 spines? are you suggesting that the zerg investing 1100 minerals into purely defensive units should be insufficient to hold an all-in? if you made 7 bunkers and took a fast 3rd, would you be upset to lose to an all-in? probably. ghost nerf was absolutely necessary. The idea that you could mass just ghosts and completely counter every zerg unit was horrible. I can't find it now but someone else said that terran 'can't afford to be building ghosts because all they do is counter infestors' which is insane, because if you get rid of the infestors, you can kill any zerg composition with marine tank, including broods. not that you ever as terran need to actually engage broods. for all you complaining about how the big maps favour zerg, think about trying to get your infestor brood force across one of them. NIGHTMARE. terran can drop 2 of your bases, while just walking his army around yours and countering. if i were giving advice i would say + Show Spoiler +fast 3rd base strats are the way to go. maybe it's just me, but i feel like every zvt i play i think at some point 'wow, i really hope he hasn't taken a 3rd yet because i'd have no way to pressure it with these lings, i'm just starting infestors and i can't really be aggressive until i have ultras' but i hear that that is stupid, so i won't say that. personally, i win most of my zvt, but i won most of the macro zvts i played before, i just died to hellion runbys more back then. I suck at zvp, so i think my MMR is dropped by my zvp to the point where i'm facing weaker terrans than i should. I find that zvp feels to me the OP says tvz feels to him. No chance to pressure, no all-in for them to be scared of, forced to just try to be greedy and hope that i can predict and counter any all-in without sacrificing my chance to get to broods, which are just as clumsy and slow in zvp as they are in zvt. Making a ton of bunkers as terran and playing absolutely defensive with no map presence and making a bunch of queens that hold off everything and contribute to insanely fast creep spread are completely different. Also the OP also wants to find a way to open with a macro style the doesn't straight up to die to a allin, which zerg is now totally safe from if he is competent at all. You seem to be missing the main points of the blog, I suggest you re-read it again.
really? you read this as a strategy request blog?
there are two differences between queens and bunkers in this context, creep spread and salvage. throwing down bunkers is not exactly dooming terran to turtle, zerg just finally has a useful DEFENSIVE unit, but when i make 6-8 queens, i'm not getting my gas until 40ish supply in order to be able to afford the queens, each of which costs a ton of minerals. When i make queens 3 and 4, I could instead be building 6 drones for those minerals. Or a fast macro hatch/third. But i need those queens to not die to terran pressure.
so going for that many queens delays my tech, upgrades and macro, but keeps me safe and allows me to spread creep..
honestly it seems to me that terran just wants a better way to deal with creep spread and none of this would be a problem.
queens, slow lings, slow banes and even infestors are all essentially defensive units, do you really think that there is no way for terran to take a fast 3rd against that? If it's a PF - or even an orbital defended by a few tanks and bunkers - zerg can't engage it before ultras.
can you not open with a fast 3rd cc, use it to stay close in workers while muling, then if you see the zerg going for lots of queens (as opposed to the 'dreaded' roach bane attack) just float it straight to your 3rd and put down a bunker or two?
EDIT: also
On June 18 2012 08:39 LuckyFool wrote:In TvP you can at least do things to exploit a greedy protoss, and can hide builds with good turret positioning/scanning to snipe obs. plus there are lots of good timings for terran in that matchup in general. On a side note, Dreamhack has just 3 terrans in the top 16, 2 of which have to play tvz right away tomorrow. I feel sorry for Keen and Brat_Ok. 
seriously? On another sidenote there are only 4 terrans in the current OSL.
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zergs op nuff said terran never stood a chance in the beta even and they just keep nerfing terran like its unplayable now
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On June 18 2012 10:33 sOAvoid wrote:
zergs op nuff said terran never stood a chance in the beta even and they just keep nerfing terran like its unplayable now
LOL
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it seems simple enough. snipe the infestors just like you snipe high templars.
lol@ terran dominance no longer being the status quo and people not being able to handle it.
your early and midgame points do seem valid however, i would give top terrans a bit more time to figure how to best deal with the 6queen.
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When I read things like this, I get taken back to the days of AP Euro analyzing documents for bias.
I pioneered the STD bias analysis actually.
Social Position
Type of Document
Dependability
So, lets begin.
S: Terran player who follows pro scene and actively tries to improve, collaborating and asking for advice from other players.
T: Blog, meaning balance whine is allowed and both sides may not be presented equally.
D: It doesn't matter if he didn't write the blog.
Therefore, I'd take what you say with a grain of salt. Actually, a few grains of salt. But it brings up valid concerns, although things like "if terran figures out new things to do, it will just get nerfed" are simple minded. I like the queen change because before zerg was a bit like riding a unicycle on a railing that leads to a downhill slope. Yeah, if you don't fall off the rail, you get to be on a downhill slope. But it was so easy to fall.
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On June 18 2012 10:26 AhhBoxxah wrote:
lol -_- really? This reminds me of BW-era luckyfool QQ......what shame.
o.o 'xactly.
I just can't wait for a Zerg player to write a guide on how to harvest Terran tears, because it's going in that direction. I don't, however, see why not being able to go ALL-IN is bad. All-ins should be very limited and very risky. This rewards players who have good mechanics and think strategically.
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Sweden33719 Posts
I think the 5 range queen buff is so crazy that I'm starting to wonder if it isn't a preparation for HotS and the healing reapers + transforming hellions...
so going for that many queens delays my tech, upgrades and macro, but keeps me safe and allows me to spread creep..
honestly it seems to me that terran just wants a better way to deal with creep spread and none of this would be a problem.
Creep lasts way way way too long indeed. Even if you clear it all, unless you can control that area until the creep dissipates (and you cant, because lings and queens will still have the speed boost so you cant actually stay there), they will send one queen out and re-creep it at the very edge again.
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while it seems pretty broken right now at the highest level of play (65% win rate is never something to be thrilled about), i still eek out wins in mid masters by the usual -- strong timings, constant aggression, and drop play.
only problem i have with it is it takes dynamics away from what was clearly the most balanced matchup, and the most entertaining matchup to watch. tvz had a lot more action, the queen change forces players in to a macro / PvZ style, which generally sucks for watching.
the dynamics of how tvz functions was/is the most interesting part of sc2.
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My terran game has never been my best. I always would do crazy builds with nukes and ravens but my Terran is only Plat level. So I can't say what should be done to help terrans other than maybe another patch. I understand people are still figuring things out but the points made about the queen and overlord changes are a much bigger deal than people thought when they first saw patch notes.
Maybe Terran players need to figure something new out but looking at the results from GESL and Dreamhack right now are pretty clear that Zergs are dominating. I'm going to focus on the round of 16 and round of 8 for GESL and group stage 3 for Dreamhack.
GESL stats... http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/GIGABYTE_ESPORTS_LAN_Invitational
+ Show Spoiler +SlayerSClide loses 0-2 to xSixSleep, EGDemuslim loses 0-2 to MVPMonster, KawaiiLighT loses 0-2 to EmpireViOLet.
MVPDream loses 1-2 to GoldenLighT, SlayersRyung loses 0-2 to MVPMonser. Out of the 5 TvZ that took place in the round of 16 and round of 8 only 1 terran players took a game off a zerg.
Ok on to Dreamhack stats http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/2012_DreamHack_Open/Summer...
+ Show Spoiler + Puma loses 1-2 to Cytoplasm, BratOK(the champion of TvZ right now) wins 2-0 over Mini and 2-0 over Snute. But also loses 0-2 to Dimaga. Keen also did well taking out LiveZerg 2-0. Morrow lost 0-2 to Stephano and 0-2 to sLivko. Thorzain wins 2-1 over Ziktomini, Thorzain loses 0-2 to Protosser and 0-2 to Nerchio. So out of 10 TvZs Terran won 8 games better thanks to BratOK actually doing work this weekend.
Both BratOK and Keen have a TvZ first round tomorrow we'll see if they continue doing well or get crushed under the might of the Swarm...
So overall Terrans have a 45% win rate in TvZ in these two tournaments... Yes 45% isn't a big deal and with only 2 tournaments to judge this by but it does shed some light on the fact Terrans are struggling in TvZ right now. I'm curious to see how this will go up or down over the next couple tournaments... I'm sure most people have seen the ladder win rates recently... and how skewed that is toward Zerg. Also it'll be interesting to see if BratOk can kepe doing work at Dreamhack. Maybe he will be the Terran hope in TvZ right now!
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It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
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On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote:
It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
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I always did wonder why the last patch buffed Zerg so much. It wasn't like last summer when the 1-1-1 was killing Protosses left and right. Pre-patch, TvZ was looking like a pretty balanced and entertaining matchup, and it didn't seem to be fundamentally unbalanced.
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As a mediocre high masters terran I tend to agree.
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This has been an issue for me as well of late. The trend I've noticed is the difficulty of Terran in keeping up with Zerg's greediness and thus trying to cutting corners, opening them up to a variety of all-ins. As a result, basically 75+% of Zergs on ladder are metagaming and just doing a roach/bane attack early. I want to figure out a way to take a no-gas quick 3rd in response, but with queens' insane range and epic creep spread, it's very difficult to scout what the Zerg is doing in Early game. Even if they take a quick third, it can easily transition to a delayed all-in/hatch cancel/extra production.
In the end, I think it will just come down to understanding the Zerg's new timings (which I feel are significantly stronger than they were previously). Combined with the easy-punish units (Infestor/Baneling) to take advantage of lower-level players' imperfect mechanics, the match-up is heavily Zerg favored at the moment.
Looking forward to revolutionary new strategic insight from the pro scene to emulate so I can finally beat these terrible Zergs in my league. QQ
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I quit SC2 almost a year ago because of reasons like these. I still follow the scene, but I absolutely refuse to play ladder games anymore because Blizzard keeps fucking with the balance of the game just when the state of the game is settling down.
Terran has always been a historically squishy race, both in BW and SC2, relying on micro, timing, and/or massive numbers in order to win games.
Any form of micro terran has an easy counter in the form of a unit or a spell in the Zerg arsenal now. Micro only worked well in BW because it was more difficult to control a larger army when dealing with a small skirmish force (the reason why Boxer is reknown in the BW world) and the limit on larvae. With both of those constraints gone and the developing gameplay, there is no "real" micro that terrans have that can do or threaten severe damage to the zerg infrastructure. They will just simply rebuild quicker than you can sustain the harassment for, and there's no threat of an "invincible" force like the old marine/medic/firebat combo vs zerglings.
Any timing that terrans have do not work because of how well queen/spine turtling is, how inefficient the seige tank is in terms of time and investment, and how most masters can now multitask with the help of smart AI and infinite unit control. Not to mention that zerg can afford to throw away units to snipe the tanks and not worry about your supporting army at all. Or if you somehow get a lot of tanks, by the time you roll out with that army, you're going to be facing broodlords, ultras, and a way bigger army than you anticipated.
And you tell me if Terrans can max out before a zerg and how often a maxed terran army could beat a maxed zerg army with both races' best late game compositions.
Terrans have no more weapons against zerg except for extremely risky gameplay. Most of what luckyfool said is correct.
We don't have anymore early game weapons that work, no mid game weapons other than mild harassment, and really weak late game options.
Nerf the queen to 1 per hatch, nerf the larvae mechanic...nerf something. Terrans will not last long like this at all.
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On June 18 2012 07:47 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 07:43 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 07:31 Archas wrote:On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote:
Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness. I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move? All of the above. You also have the problem with zergs getting to hive tech in a better position nowadays because of the queen/ovie buff and just generally understanding timings/what they can get away with. I've said from day 1 that if you have a race that depends on timing attacks to win, once people figure out the timings u will never win again. Having to rely on timing attacks is a horrible idea for a game/race and can leave you SEVERELY crippled by metagame shifts. tvz was the same way though in bw for example. Terran always had that marine timing they would do and it would force zergs to make lings or creep colonies to make them into sunkens. Terran was always on the attack, if he wasn't zerg would be just the same as in sc2 with defiler/ultra/ling and a lot more of it then if terran sat back with bio and did nothing. Mech was a different story obviously, but same with sc2 if you go mech you don't push early like you do with bio. If you are going to go bio yes you have to put pressure or at least force units. I have found terrans doing a MM timing but not committing to be the most effective. Just forcing zerg to make units and then pulling back (unless you see you can kill him or something) is very effective.
I personally don't play mech, since I am a no skill player (really I suck at SC2 lol). I personally play protoss, but I have dabbled in some terran play. Have you seen many ravens recently? This feels like the time Terran players told Protoss to find a new way to win after they started 1/1/1-ing, so along with a healthy immortal buff to make them less useless, Protoss developed a lot of warp prism harrass, early naturals and thirds to get more units out and even started using phoenix a lot more, could this be the case with Terran in this instance? I feel like there are a lot of underused Terran upgrades and units and structures, such as reapers, ravens, vikings and battlecruisers, have a place in the TvZ meta, but are rarely used. for instance, one way to take advantage of Zergs greedy nature would be to take advantage of the same principals that zerg does, if you can't harrass early becaue of map size, then neither can zerg really. I guess what I am asking is, is this similar to what the races have had to do in the past when it comes to evolving or is this insurmountable?
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EPT
