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On June 18 2012 12:40 Ktk wrote:If you're winning with Ravens I'm inclined to believe that it's because it's out of the norm. Yes. You might have greater success if your build is not standard, but it might not be because of the strategy it's simply the opponent's misread or poor execution or poor counter-strategy against it. Raven is slow, HSM has the range of a marauder, PDD is good but all air is ridiculously vulnerable to fungal growth anyways. ...Unless the new "Terran revolution" involves raven splitting (it's like splitting unstimmed marines vs a baneling with twice the radius!) It was funny when Ghost went from 150/150 to 200/100. I suspect it was a veiled nerf since though gas is more valuable than minerals, it's not the case for ghosts in the situations they are used for - or for Terran in general. Early game ghost in TvT isn't quite as good (understatement) after the snipe nerf (read: can't snipe a marine lololol) and Terran is always looking for minerals, not gas. So the lack of a gas dump outside of the raven is still a big problem and will still be a problem going into HotS. I wouldn't be surprised if the next balance patch is one involving ravens to "push" Terrans into using them in lategame matchups, much like how they "pushed" warp prism usage with a +60 shield buff or "pushed" fast protoss upgrades with a trivial (but in my biased view, extremely annoying and unnecessary) cost buff. ITS NOT LIKE THEIR GROUND UPGRADES DON'T WORK ON ROBO OR ANYTHING. HINT HINTtl;dr Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:07 intrigue wrote:
time for 60 hp scvs, quick-building bunkers, and the ability to make rax before depot! hehehe Science vessel plz
Ravens are one of the few lategame things T has, but even those require a mistake on your opponent's part in terms of not splitting their units (sorta like PvZ vs vortex) and/or if the Zerg hits 1 fungal they autowin the game because you lose all your ravens/vikings or what not to fungal/corruptors.
I have quite a bit of experience lategame TvZ with ravens and the game always comes down "keep away from the fungal growth." And also when ravens are fungalled, they cannot cast HSM on broods because they're too far away.
But that's just one issue in the big picture. The queen buff has made it so Zerg can do whatever they want and you cannot even all-in them/damage them nowadays because overlord speed + more queens = more creep = more defense. People really underestimate the ability to kite queens with hellions or force Zerg to actually have to make units instead of only queens/creep tumors.
Since hellions can't do jack shit now to deny creep/queens, the game just ends up always going late and spiralling out of control, it just snowballs. There's a legitimate problem with the match-up that blizzard created with the last patch that needs to be addressed very soon.
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It's funny how two range on a queen changed every fucken thing on a MU, but not for everyone. It's funny, because Blizzard just taken them ability to stay TOTALY unscouted, nothing else, and outcray happen. I'm high in masters. And until patch happend 80% of the terrans i played were ALWAYS abusing me at some point. 3cc off of 4 hellions and 3 marines in a bunker? check! Double engi before second barrack on two bases? check! banshee from two hellions and one bunker of marines? check! ... And then you always have to think about every stupid all in that terran can do to you on every point of the game. Now terrans can't abuse, and that is why the outcray comes from. That range buff SHULDN'T MADE MU UNPLAYABLE. But did... i think it's because hmm "every terran is/was till now a hack  "
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On June 18 2012 12:51 Sapp wrote:It's funny how two range on a queen changed every fucken thing on a MU, but not for everyone. It's funny, because Blizzard just taken them ability to stay TOTALY unscouted, nothing else, and outcray happen. I'm high in masters. And until patch happend 80% of the terrans i played were ALWAYS abusing me at some point. 3cc off of 4 hellions and 3 marines in a bunker? check! Double engi before second barrack on two bases? check! banshee from two hellions and one bunker of marines? check! ... And then you always have to think about every stupid all in that terran can do to you on every point of the game. Now terrans can't abuse, and that is why the outcray comes from. That range buff SHULDN'T MADE MU UNPLAYABLE. But did... i think it's because hmm "every terran is/was till now a hack "
Right, so the ideal state of the game is for terrans to be unable to attack you until lategame, where you 1a a massive hive tech army over and masturbate furiously over your ladder points?
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On June 18 2012 12:59 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:51 Sapp wrote:It's funny how two range on a queen changed every fucken thing on a MU, but not for everyone. It's funny, because Blizzard just taken them ability to stay TOTALY unscouted, nothing else, and outcray happen. I'm high in masters. And until patch happend 80% of the terrans i played were ALWAYS abusing me at some point. 3cc off of 4 hellions and 3 marines in a bunker? check! Double engi before second barrack on two bases? check! banshee from two hellions and one bunker of marines? check! ... And then you always have to think about every stupid all in that terran can do to you on every point of the game. Now terrans can't abuse, and that is why the outcray comes from. That range buff SHULDN'T MADE MU UNPLAYABLE. But did... i think it's because hmm "every terran is/was till now a hack " Right, so the ideal state of the game is for terrans to be unable to attack you until lategame, where you 1a a massive hive tech army over and masturbate furiously over your ladder points?
you fuc... DID I SAID SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
but okay... i'll play! so the ideal state of the game is for zerg to HAVE TO open something balanced in ETA and pray for terran to NOT do something that counters zergs build coompletly, while everything that terran wants to see is at the range of a scan?
IF! (AND I SAY "IF") the game is broken, it is broken in diffirent place. maybe space mariners are too weak? i don't know, but if STRATEGY game is about praying every game to god, for your strategy not to be completly countered, the game is bad!
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People who think that ravens are the cure to TvZ are the same class of completely fucking retarded as those who thought nydus worms were the cure to ZvT back when it was horrible for zergs. The actual cures were balance changes, better maps and refinement of basic shit. Ravens are good at killing broods if you can turtle and get a bunch out with enough energy. This is a good strategy on metropolis because that is a map where it's super easy to do nothing but secure 5 bases and drop occasionally so you don't feel bad about doing nothing for 50 minutes. That's it. They tickle ultralisks and don't do much else. They're very expensive and take a long time to produce and build up energy for. If you get a bunch in preparation for broodlords and he goes ultralisks instead then you look extremely fucking stupid. And seeing as you have to start ravens well in time for broods, there's none of this scouting that'll help you.
TvZ right now feels awful as a terran currently. This isn't helped that being Australian my local scene is already full of bloody zergs already. Good ones. Anyway, it feels pretty awful, and that's mostly because of queens. I didn't mind a lot of the terran nerfs in the past, pretty much all of them really. Yea ghosts were kinda dumb with snipe. Gold bases were retarded. Blue flames were stupid. All good changes, and terrans soldiered on just fine because we were good players who didn't need things that stupid. Overlord change, yea ok zergs always felt uncomfortable early game dealing with 1 base plays they couldn't really see coming. Ok fine.
But queens are fucking imbalanced as they are now. A Zerg who sees you going 13 gas can get 2 queens and have no problem setting down creep. A zerg who sees you going 1 rax fe/14 CC can get 6 queens, 3 bases and 70 drones. If they lose drones to harassment they can just make more while the queen cleans it up. With 3 hatcheries and good injects they have all the larvae they need and with 2 saturated bases they have the money. Queens are a very strong defensive unit with no exploitable weaknesses. The only weaknesses they have are slow off creep, fat so they concave bad en masse and are psionic so they take 50 damage from ghost snipe. They are also a bit tricky to mass produce unlike roaches but that's ok you only need 6.
Apart from that they have roughly the same damage as roaches except they have more hp, don't have vulnerability to marauders, can attack air, can spread creep, can do injects, can heal things, don't cost gas, don't require much tech and fulfil the similar function to roaches which is keeping hellions away for cheap. Cheaper even. And unlike roaches again if you don't get much value out of them it's ok! If you make like 6 roaches when saturating 3 bases then you're stuck with this shitty unit that doesn't do much. If you make 3 additional queens then you can spread a shitload of creep and have leftover queens for when you make more hatcheries. There's pretty much no downside other then a vulnerability to mass marine/scv all in which I feel zergs will figure out soon (hint, use overlords to scout our gases. If no gas, make a baneling nest and get ready to freewin the terran) and the rest is upside; 3 saturated bases quick as you like and tons of creep. If the terran is greedy then it's probably ok since you're being pretty much as greedy as you can.
There's a lot of other things I could go on about as /whingyterran but queens are pretty much the biggest qualm I have with the mu. Either we get balance change or we get a revolutionist. Either way I hope we get one very soon.
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On June 18 2012 10:59 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote:
It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play. You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
You're right, zerg still makes muta and sits on lair until 5 base, and protoss maxes on collosi/stalker.
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On June 18 2012 10:59 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote:
It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play. You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
Yeah, and they were buffed because they were too strong..
Buffs are not like candy in kindergarden you moron, if blizzard is buffing something, that means that someone thinks that IT IS TOO WEAK.
And you seem to think that if zerg get buffed that means that terran has to be buffedalso, just to be fair... this is bullshit, grow up.
User was warned for this post
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On June 18 2012 13:13 iaguz wrote:
People who think that ravens are the cure to TvZ are the same class of completely fucking retarded as those who thought nydus worms were the cure to ZvT back when it was horrible for zergs.
I dunno what people's fascination with "the thing" is. At least the Protoss' "thing" works like a charm >_<...
On the subject of Queens, I feel like nerfing them and Spawn Larvae is key to balancing Zerg, but I'm sure you know how much the race hinges on passive play. When Blizzard adds burrowed broodlords, I'm sure such a nerf could be compensated, but...this is Blizzard. We'll find out.
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I swear we need someone to do a study on SCII from ALL leagues, with grandmaster and proleagues having the biggest sample size in regards of the state of the game, wins based on TIMINGS. See if Terrans are winning any TvP or TvZ past 10-15 minutes, see if Protoss are winning any PvT or PvZ past 10-15 minutes, and same for Zerg. Maybe then we'll have less of this stupid as fuck theorycrafting and more actual action taking place.
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zerg lategame is Z favored... BL/Infestor max is too powerful. but the idea is to use timings to slow the zerg down and keep them from lots of bases... (4+)..
ideally if you can keep him off a'lot of bases while you expand your self.. you should be able to hit him before he amasses too many corruputers/broods.. just make sure you're scanning properly for tech switches/tech timings...
great thing about terrans is.. nothing can really handle our 2/2 marine/tank/medi pushes.. just set them up properly ; )
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It's unfortunate that so many zergs have had the victim syndrome throughout the history of sc2 (largely because of balance being so terrible when the game first came out -- seriously, wasn't the roach supply changed to 2 like 1 month before the game came out? Fundamental changes like that should be settled in alpha! but I digress). The point is is that zergs need to stop being like idra and start being more like stephano, in other words stop complaning constantly and start recognizing how fucking powerful your race is.
On June 18 2012 13:30 EienShinwa wrote:
I swear we need someone to do a study on SCII from ALL leagues, with grandmaster and proleagues having the biggest sample size in regards of the state of the game, wins based on TIMINGS. See if Terrans are winning any TvP or TvZ past 10-15 minutes, see if Protoss are winning any PvT or PvZ past 10-15 minutes, and same for Zerg. Maybe then we'll have less of this stupid as fuck theorycrafting and more actual action taking place.
Yes I agree. Unfortunately I don't know how much good that will do because blizzard has no problem with races being imbalanced at different times of the game.
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Not sure about unplayable, but they are certainly not that interesting to watch anymore.
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On June 18 2012 12:59 Fission wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:51 Sapp wrote:It's funny how two range on a queen changed every fucken thing on a MU, but not for everyone. It's funny, because Blizzard just taken them ability to stay TOTALY unscouted, nothing else, and outcray happen. I'm high in masters. And until patch happend 80% of the terrans i played were ALWAYS abusing me at some point. 3cc off of 4 hellions and 3 marines in a bunker? check! Double engi before second barrack on two bases? check! banshee from two hellions and one bunker of marines? check! ... And then you always have to think about every stupid all in that terran can do to you on every point of the game. Now terrans can't abuse, and that is why the outcray comes from. That range buff SHULDN'T MADE MU UNPLAYABLE. But did... i think it's because hmm "every terran is/was till now a hack " Right, so the ideal state of the game is for terrans to be unable to attack you until lategame, where you 1a a massive hive tech army over and masturbate furiously over your ladder points?
This made me lol.
I played a TvZ today on Entombed Valley. I scouted we had spawned cross-positions, and I immediately knew I had lost the game right there: I took a really fast 3rd CC and massed MMT off of 9 rax and 2 ports. He was taking his 4th base when I chose to push him with a really huge, 2/2 army. Then all the sudden I see he had creeped the map halfway through, and almost as fast as I realized that, I see a huge ball of lings/blings charging toward me. I split like fucking crazy and I die, he makes mutas, and I try a last attempt at killing his 4th. I manage to scare all his workers away, and die before my army even damages his hatchery to half its life. I gg when I see his mutas had obliterated my 3rd and were pissing in my main.
To me, playing TvZ feels like playing BW TvP and going bio.
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A few things... I feel like it isn't the fact that queen's extra range makes them so much more useful. It's that because Blizzard gave them a buff, Zerg players have started to experiment with them more. It's like back when the Warp Prism could die if someone blew too hard on it. Sure, the buff in survivability was nice, but then we saw many Protoss experiment with them more, even when the survivability wasn't the issue. Point being, it isn't the buff that's changing the game so much, it's that players experiment with using these relatively underused units more, or using them in ways that were previously uncommon. Zergs now focus a LOT more on getting good creep spread.
It reminds me of BW TvZ, with the Terran army having to wait for a Science Vessel before venturing out too far to deal with the map control lurkers gave. Now that Zergs in SC2 are getting much better at creep spread and map control, what does the Terran need to do? That should be the question that Terrans ask themselves instead of blaming imbalance because Queens have a longer ground attack range.
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Pre-Overlord/Queen Buffed Zergs: "Welcome to our world."
+ Show Spoiler +In all honesty though, I too feel ZvT is unbalanced right now. I play Zerg. Terran either has to be much better than the Zerg, or Zerg needs to make mistakes for the Terran to win. However, I do think Terran has many unexplored builds that can trump current Zerg play...
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I'm a random player who has always had the hardest time as Terran. However, I recognize from watching the pro level that terran has always had a huge upside when played extremely well. I still believe it does, even in TvZ.
Here's a few things that could use some testing from a player much better than me:
Pressure vZ 3-base: Try playing around with some marauder/ghost timings. Snipe queens with ghosts, 4 shots to kill, but it's almost instant so it'd be a very hard transfuse. If there's a huge clump of queens you could EMP, but snipe is generally preferred. Marauders do great against spines or roaches. Biggest worry would probably be lings, but ghosts 2-shot em so you just have to make sure that you get a good position and never get fully surrounded.
Gasless 3CC: Already safe except against major pressure, so the key is good scouting to check for those busts. What about building an extra barracks near the enemy and using it like zergs use a suicidal overlord? You'll need to learn the appropriate timing to check for that bust, but for 150 minerals you've got a suicide overlord with 1000 health (as opposed to 200) and 0.94 speed (as opposed to 0.59). Not too bad for 50 minerals more. Wouldn't scouting the occasional bust be a good investment of 150 minerals especially since you can save your scan for mules instead? After it does its scouting job you can send it back to base or to a repairing SCV for a later scout. You can also leave it just outside the creep spread as a spotter and it'll be safe until hydras/mutas/corruptors come out because it can run the same speed as a queen off creep. So find a good time to build a proxy rax (could be part of proxy rax pressure) and let it fly.
Just some very simple ideas from a middling player.
On June 18 2012 13:30 EienShinwa wrote:
I swear we need someone to do a study on SCII from ALL leagues, with grandmaster and proleagues having the biggest sample size in regards of the state of the game, wins based on TIMINGS. See if Terrans are winning any TvP or TvZ past 10-15 minutes, see if Protoss are winning any PvT or PvZ past 10-15 minutes, and same for Zerg. Maybe then we'll have less of this stupid as fuck theorycrafting and more actual action taking place.
Check the recent David Kim interview from 6 minutes till about 6:30. He was specifically talking about PvT in it, but it turns out that they actually do look at stats across all timings.
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On June 18 2012 14:31 EscPlan9 wrote:
A few things... I feel like it isn't the fact that queen's extra range makes them so much more useful. It's that because Blizzard gave them a buff, Zerg players have started to experiment with them more. It's like back when the Warp Prism could die if someone blew too hard on it. Sure, the buff in survivability was nice, but then we saw many Protoss experiment with them more, even when the survivability wasn't the issue. Point being, it isn't the buff that's changing the game so much, it's that players experiment with using these relatively underused units more, or using them in ways that were previously uncommon. Zergs now focus a LOT more on getting good creep spread.
It reminds me of BW TvZ, with the Terran army having to wait for a Science Vessel before venturing out too far to deal with the map control lurkers gave. Now that Zergs in SC2 are getting much better at creep spread and map control, what does the Terran need to do? That should be the question that Terrans ask themselves instead of blaming imbalance because Queens have a longer ground attack range.
I feel that's a poor argument. When warp prisms were buffed they didn't change in use or function, they just became better at something you already used them for. It increased the chances that certain strategies would work, but they didn't fundamentally change the unit nor how other races viewed it, at least not too substantially.
The queen buff did fundamentally change TvZ because queens > hellions whereas before hellions > queens. This is pretty huge because nowadays zergs are going for really fast 3 bases and massing queens to defend harassment whilst they drone a ton, then pumping tons of units (generally lings) so they don't have to die to something the queens cannot handle. Prepatch if a zerg wanted to do that he'd have to get roaches first or an awful lot of lings but now they are doing it off of 6 queens which is an awful lot cheaper. They also get tons of delicious creep too!
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TvZ has been pretty boring to watch. Zerg takes no damage and takes free 3rd as long as he has queens. I think they need to reintroduce maps like Taldarim altar where there are rocks at the third to really make this patch somewhat work out.
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No. Rocks at third maps are shitty for ZvP. That is a poor solution.
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On June 18 2012 15:03 iaguz wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:31 EscPlan9 wrote:
A few things... I feel like it isn't the fact that queen's extra range makes them so much more useful. It's that because Blizzard gave them a buff, Zerg players have started to experiment with them more. It's like back when the Warp Prism could die if someone blew too hard on it. Sure, the buff in survivability was nice, but then we saw many Protoss experiment with them more, even when the survivability wasn't the issue. Point being, it isn't the buff that's changing the game so much, it's that players experiment with using these relatively underused units more, or using them in ways that were previously uncommon. Zergs now focus a LOT more on getting good creep spread.
It reminds me of BW TvZ, with the Terran army having to wait for a Science Vessel before venturing out too far to deal with the map control lurkers gave. Now that Zergs in SC2 are getting much better at creep spread and map control, what does the Terran need to do? That should be the question that Terrans ask themselves instead of blaming imbalance because Queens have a longer ground attack range. I feel that's a poor argument. When warp prisms were buffed they didn't change in use or function, they just became better at something you already used them for. It increased the chances that certain strategies would work, but they didn't fundamentally change the unit nor how other races viewed it, at least not too substantially. The queen buff did fundamentally change TvZ because queens > hellions whereas before hellions > queens. This is pretty huge because nowadays zergs are going for really fast 3 bases and massing queens to defend harassment whilst they drone a ton, then pumping tons of units (generally lings) so they don't have to die to something the queens cannot handle. Prepatch if a zerg wanted to do that he'd have to get roaches first or an awful lot of lings but now they are doing it off of 6 queens which is an awful lot cheaper. They also get tons of delicious creep too!
Prepatch a zerg with 4-6 queens would have beaten hellions as well. Zergs just do it more often now because "oh hey, the unit got a buff, let me experiment with it more" and it has made the top Zerg players start to unravel the true potential of the Queen.
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EPT
