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On June 18 2012 14:53 RenSC2 wrote:
Pressure vZ 3-base: Try playing around with some marauder/ghost timings. Snipe queens with ghosts, 4 shots to kill, but it's almost instant so it'd be a very hard transfuse. If there's a huge clump of queens you could EMP, but snipe is generally preferred.
That's absolutely ridiculous. They can just spam lings against marauder ghost, and you are now crippled economically and have spent all your gas on tech that's useless until infestors come out.
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On June 18 2012 12:07 darkness wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 11:26 Mjolnir wrote:On June 18 2012 10:59 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote:
It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play. You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor. Probably because they fucking needed them. Look, I play Terran and Zerg and I'm master level. This is a pretty solid match up for both races and it's not particularly easy for either race, despite what some would suggest with their rants. Who cares about masters league when players like MVP and DRG say TvZ favours zerg? I mean pro gamers play at a higher level and know better than you.
I can find pro gamers that think ZvT favours Terran. Come on man, Terran has had it relatively easy for a long time in that MU - and I say this as a guy who spends equal amounts of time playing both races. I seriously think that Terran players just need to fucking adapt - and more than that, Blizzard needs to give them time to adapt rather than dish out some knee-jerk reaction to player complaint - like they have in the past.
For what it's worth, I didn't mention my league rank for any other reason than the fact that more often than not, on TL here, if you're below master and voice an opinion, people pop out of nowhere and shit all over you. Of course, the flip-side is that people here will shit all over you for mentioning too, so I guess there's that.
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On June 18 2012 15:32 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:07 darkness wrote:On June 18 2012 11:26 Mjolnir wrote:On June 18 2012 10:59 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote:
It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play. You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor. Probably because they fucking needed them. Look, I play Terran and Zerg and I'm master level. This is a pretty solid match up for both races and it's not particularly easy for either race, despite what some would suggest with their rants. Who cares about masters league when players like MVP and DRG say TvZ favours zerg? I mean pro gamers play at a higher level and know better than you. I can find pro gamers that think ZvT favours Terran. Come on man, Terran has had it relatively easy for a long time in that MU - and I say this as a guy who spends equal amounts of time playing both races. I seriously think that Terran players just need to fucking adapt - and more than that, Blizzard needs to give them time to adapt rather than dish out some knee-jerk reaction to player complaint - like they have in the past. For what it's worth, I didn't mention my league rank for any other reason than the fact that more often than not, on TL here, if you're below master and voice an opinion, people pop out of nowhere and shit all over you. Of course, the flip-side is that people here will shit all over you for mentioning too, so I guess there's that.
I challenge you to find me a single Terran pro-gamer that will say Terran has the advantage in TvZ.
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On June 18 2012 15:29 EscPlan9 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 15:03 iaguz wrote:On June 18 2012 14:31 EscPlan9 wrote:
A few things... I feel like it isn't the fact that queen's extra range makes them so much more useful. It's that because Blizzard gave them a buff, Zerg players have started to experiment with them more. It's like back when the Warp Prism could die if someone blew too hard on it. Sure, the buff in survivability was nice, but then we saw many Protoss experiment with them more, even when the survivability wasn't the issue. Point being, it isn't the buff that's changing the game so much, it's that players experiment with using these relatively underused units more, or using them in ways that were previously uncommon. Zergs now focus a LOT more on getting good creep spread.
It reminds me of BW TvZ, with the Terran army having to wait for a Science Vessel before venturing out too far to deal with the map control lurkers gave. Now that Zergs in SC2 are getting much better at creep spread and map control, what does the Terran need to do? That should be the question that Terrans ask themselves instead of blaming imbalance because Queens have a longer ground attack range. I feel that's a poor argument. When warp prisms were buffed they didn't change in use or function, they just became better at something you already used them for. It increased the chances that certain strategies would work, but they didn't fundamentally change the unit nor how other races viewed it, at least not too substantially. The queen buff did fundamentally change TvZ because queens > hellions whereas before hellions > queens. This is pretty huge because nowadays zergs are going for really fast 3 bases and massing queens to defend harassment whilst they drone a ton, then pumping tons of units (generally lings) so they don't have to die to something the queens cannot handle. Prepatch if a zerg wanted to do that he'd have to get roaches first or an awful lot of lings but now they are doing it off of 6 queens which is an awful lot cheaper. They also get tons of delicious creep too! Prepatch a zerg with 4-6 queens would have beaten hellions as well. Zergs just do it more often now because "oh hey, the unit got a buff, let me experiment with it more" and it has made the top Zerg players start to unravel the true potential of the Queen.
prepatch queens don't "beat" hellions at all wtf?
nowadays i even see 3 queens in a line off creep running at my hellions to laugh at me
they're a joke.
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On June 18 2012 15:18 iaguz wrote:
No. Rocks at third maps are shitty for ZvP. That is a poor solution.
What about a third with less mineral patches or something? They can be greedy but it wont yield as much
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try ravens, aside from that i would like a bc buff.
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my biggest problem in the matchup is the fact that zerg can generally hold all forms of harassment with queens and drone to 80. Even if faced with harassment they can clean it up with queens and continue to drone. Any kind of all in / commitment to a push that a zerg scouts then he can just crush it and come out severely ahead and continue to drone to 70-80 and win later on and make it hell for terran to take a 3rd.
Hellion openings aren't viable considering the major use of hellions is to deny 3rd/ stop creep spread but now they can't really do either considering they trade hits with queens now instead of kiting.
OL placement and scouting is a lot easier (good thing) so any confident zerg should be able to scout any 2 base timing and hold with relative ease due to zerg reinforcement and then continue to drone
because of creep spread being crazy now any small push or 2 base timing is discouraged now and can be seen from really far away also giving zerg units swarm advantage because of creep increasing speed.
Its just wasn't well thought out on blizzards part. I don't' think they realized how much the queen buff would affect things zzz
generally i open quick 3rd most my TvZ matches but the thing is zerg players are metagaming that and roach baneling all inning and then would drone to 80 or they will drone to 80 and go heavy muta ling baneling knowing i won't be ready to take it yet because i've been cutting corners. Its just hard man, and not fun haha
Trying to find ways to deal with it currently but its just really really hard TT;
TL;DR I can't play greedy because zerg can scout it and make it hell/deny me but i can't punish zerg from playing greedy unless its an all in/really committed push and if it fails its guaranteed lose from there because they can just freely drone from there and go into late game with a huge lead.
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On June 18 2012 15:32 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 14:53 RenSC2 wrote:
Pressure vZ 3-base: Try playing around with some marauder/ghost timings. Snipe queens with ghosts, 4 shots to kill, but it's almost instant so it'd be a very hard transfuse. If there's a huge clump of queens you could EMP, but snipe is generally preferred. Marauders do great against spines or roaches. Biggest worry would probably be lings, but ghosts 2-shot em so you just have to make sure that you get a good position and never get fully surrounded.
Gasless 3CC: Already safe except against major pressure, so the key is good scouting to check for those busts. What about building an extra barracks near the enemy and using it like zergs use a suicidal overlord? You'll need to learn the appropriate timing to check for that bust, but for 150 minerals you've got a suicide overlord with 1000 health (as opposed to 200) and 0.94 speed (as opposed to 0.59). Not too bad for 50 minerals more. Wouldn't scouting the occasional bust be a good investment of 150 minerals especially since you can save your scan for mules instead? After it does its scouting job you can send it back to base or to a repairing SCV for a later scout. You can also leave it just outside the creep spread as a spotter and it'll be safe until hydras/mutas/corruptors come out because it can run the same speed as a queen off creep. So find a good time to build a proxy rax (could be part of proxy rax pressure) and let it fly. That's absolutely ridiculous. They can just spam lings against marauder ghost, and you are now crippled economically and have spent all your gas on tech that's useless until infestors come out.
To be fair, I thought my second idea was the better one... largely because it's such a subtle change with far reaching consequences.
However, you're stating a scenario where your opponent is dumping all his larva into zerglings. He's essentially doing economic damage to himself. You will hopefully hit with some amount of suprise so that you can take out his 3rd and then retreat. If so, you already have the tech and some units ready for when your opponent goes infestor. If not, you can at least wedge yourself into the mineral fields and watch zerglings melt extremely inefficiently to ghost fire.
Meanwhile, you can save money on combat shield and stim for the time being so that gas can be dumped into ghosts or the other tech you want. You'll already have a significant number of tech labs to toss onto factories or starports as you move barracks to reactors. And as a terran in lategame, you're usually crunched for minerals, not gas anyways.
It needs testing by players better than me. It might not work at the highest levels, but it's definitely worth checking out. Maybe you'll have found the new meta-game, maybe not. It's not absolutely ridiculous. Getting stuck in the old meta-game and then crying about imbalance while Blizzard is forcing meta-game shifts is absolutely ridiculous.
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ZvP is the worst matchup in the game by far, because of how gameplay starts at 5 minutes. You know how it is kind of hard to explain to someone what starcraft is in the first few seconds because nothing is happening but mining? Imagine this being 5 minutes long....
+ Show Spoiler +I also think Zerg can not lose a series against Protoss under any circumstance. The ones who do, do not have a strong enough understanding of the game.
The biggest fear I have coming in to the Zerg queen patch is that Terran metagame will shift towards 3CC passivity in every game. This will be another situation where gameplay starts at 5 minutes and it is just boring as hell.
I bring you 2 streamers, one match to watch, and one tournament run to follow:
Empire.Kas, TSLPolt, and NSHSculp vs StartaleCurious GSTL 2012, Brat_OK Dreamhack Summer 2012.
Empire.Kas has been doing 1 rax expand, into hellions, into banshee, into biotank, and NOT LOSING. I saw him play versus a grandmaster ladder champion (Alastor) literally 9 games in a row, where 7 games were THE SAME BUILD WITHOUT EVEN TRYING TO HIDE IT, and Kas won them all but one to some cool allin.
TSLPolt does much the same thing, he spices it up more, and still gets a decent winrate against Zerg. It is not glorious like Kas, but you will get a broader scope of possibility in the matchup.
NSHSculp opens 1 rax expand, into hellions with a 3rd CC quickly, and no cloak banshee harass. He metagames the Zerg queens being so far forward to spread creep that he runs them in by twos, and forces many many stupid lings to be made. Believe it or not, Queens might 1 shot your hellions, but they still are in fact slower on creep.
I also reccommend a bunker rush to the zerg third base.
The most fascinating thing is once he gets 60 workers, the aggression is ON. He moves out with a handful of marines, a medivac, and two tanks and just micros his HEART out. He forces so many units, gets so many cost efficient battles and is constantly macroing at home. He starts to do multi-pronged frontal assaults, with drops in the background. He micros PERFECTLY against banelings, infestors are fundamentally weak early on to this strategy, and mutalisks are fundamentally weak later, it is such a catch-all to lair tech. If he goes hatch-tech, just consolidate your forces! If hive, he has nothing!
Brat_OK has been dropping his way to fame. I have not paid much attention to his actual openers, but he has just been out-multitasking the zergs so hard. He knows how to pull apart lair tech, how to engage, killing creep spread and everything. He lost to DIMAGA in an unfortunate series that I might analyse later when replays come out.
And on to what I am doing personally:
Day9 Daily on Quantic Illusion TvZ
The initial attack equalizes harvesters, while allowing you to get a third base up, 1-1 and infrastructure.
----- Also allows for much creep spread denial.
Followed by a 1-1 double drop to keep the drone count equalized, or deny a fourth base.
----- Use the other parts of your bio to deny ling scouts, creep spread, overlord spread.
Then a 2-2, 1-0 attack with marines and tanks, with medivac drops and taking a fourth behind yourself.
----- After this point, every 30 seconds send 4 marines on missions to a tower, to kill an overlord or a zergling, to kill creep tumours, SOMETHING for vision.
----- Also, once you have 2-2 you can really turn the heat on, you can CONSTANTLY attack until he has cracklings because your marines will suddenly get super efficient at this point.
The whole goal is to delay delay delay broodlord tech.
So what we have to micro 10x harder (subjective). so what our multitask is 10x harder (subjective). Our macro is harder (subjective). We have a hard time defending bases. We can't keep up with zerg macro.
THEN FUCKING PLAY BETTER AND BEAT THEM.
I dropped from high masters/gm to low masters, I'm not going to let this keep me away. Though for some reason Protoss just cheeses a LOT in this lower MMR.
Edit: Also worth mentioning, not all people might like the hyper aggression style that I just love.
Go 3 CC, make 4 hellions and then tanks. I don't remember what tourney, look for MMA vs Violet on Antiga. Go play defensive, and make Ravens. And don't complain when your air gets fungaled. Don't complain when you die to some bust before you get critical mass ravens. Split your ravens, to make them more effective. Tech slightly slower each time you get busted until you know what it takes to stay alive long enough to make enough ravens.
I want to mention that Raven Viking BC Thor SCV is actually unbeatable. Zerg CAN NOT defeat this composition and you will win the game. This composition is your gg button, if you like turtling, figure out how to make it. If you like attacking, do what I'm trying to do.
Edit 2: Avilo you're just the biggest whiner.
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I've given this some thought and the conclusion I came to was an early starport with a seige opening to hold off roach baneling busts. Been a little inspired by BW PvZ where they use corsairs to take out overlords.
Most zergs I've come across deal with two base banshee seige tech openings by making maybe two spore crawlers and an overseer. What I'm going to do is throw a viking or two in with my banshees solely for the purpose of munting that overseer and killing off any and all overlords around the map. If I'm lucky I can even get a few extra drone kills/a spore kill with the vikings. I'm going to try and force the zerg into spire tech to deal with my handful of vikings/banshees rather than just going straight into infestors.
This'll time with an armory and my third being taken (hopefully having denied his with banshess for a while) and by this point I should be prepared for any muta followup with plenty of marines. I still need to time this out, but I really feel that a lot of the control a zerg has over the game is due to the combination of overlord spread and creep spread.
It's just an idea, but is it one worth pursuing? Once a zerg loses control over the sky they basically can't stop drops. Yes I know once they make a few mutas I surrender control for a bit, but if they're making mutas and I'm making marines and they haven't been able to break my front, I'm probably going to be at an advantage.
I'm going to go and play for a bit.
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On June 18 2012 16:04 RenSC2 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 15:32 yeint wrote:On June 18 2012 14:53 RenSC2 wrote:
Pressure vZ 3-base: Try playing around with some marauder/ghost timings. Snipe queens with ghosts, 4 shots to kill, but it's almost instant so it'd be a very hard transfuse. If there's a huge clump of queens you could EMP, but snipe is generally preferred. Marauders do great against spines or roaches. Biggest worry would probably be lings, but ghosts 2-shot em so you just have to make sure that you get a good position and never get fully surrounded.
Gasless 3CC: Already safe except against major pressure, so the key is good scouting to check for those busts. What about building an extra barracks near the enemy and using it like zergs use a suicidal overlord? You'll need to learn the appropriate timing to check for that bust, but for 150 minerals you've got a suicide overlord with 1000 health (as opposed to 200) and 0.94 speed (as opposed to 0.59). Not too bad for 50 minerals more. Wouldn't scouting the occasional bust be a good investment of 150 minerals especially since you can save your scan for mules instead? After it does its scouting job you can send it back to base or to a repairing SCV for a later scout. You can also leave it just outside the creep spread as a spotter and it'll be safe until hydras/mutas/corruptors come out because it can run the same speed as a queen off creep. So find a good time to build a proxy rax (could be part of proxy rax pressure) and let it fly. That's absolutely ridiculous. They can just spam lings against marauder ghost, and you are now crippled economically and have spent all your gas on tech that's useless until infestors come out. To be fair, I thought my second idea was the better one... largely because it's such a subtle change with far reaching consequences.
I did like your second idea by the way.
However, you're stating a scenario where your opponent is dumping all his larva into zerglings. He's essentially doing economic damage to himself. You will hopefully hit with some amount of suprise so that you can take out his 3rd and then retreat. If so, you already have the tech and some units ready for when your opponent goes infestor. If not, you can at least wedge yourself into the mineral fields and watch zerglings melt extremely inefficiently to ghost fire.
Larva damage for a three hatch zerg is far too negligible to warrant teching to ghosts. Also, how do you deny scouting with a tiny marine count?
Meanwhile, you can save money on combat shield and stim for the time being so that gas can be dumped into ghosts or the other tech you want. You'll already have a significant number of tech labs to toss onto factories or starports as you move barracks to reactors. And as a terran in lategame, you're usually crunched for minerals, not gas anyways.
The problem is not the lategame, it's the mid-game. Grats, you killed his fast third, but you now have no tanks or medivacs.
It needs testing by players better than me. It might not work at the highest levels, but it's definitely worth checking out. Maybe you'll have found the new meta-game, maybe not. It's not absolutely ridiculous. Getting stuck in the old meta-game and then crying about imbalance while Blizzard is forcing meta-game shifts is absolutely ridiculous.
It's fundamentally flawed. You can't counter a fast third hatch with a ghost timing without crippling yourself in the midgame.
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Ok so pre-patch the Queen range was 3. Post patch it's 5. The obvious solution here is to just compromise and make it 4, then the matchup will once again be perfectly balanced :D
And I really am curious to start seeing new styles out of Terrans. All I see right now is Bio/Medivac or Marine/Tank/Medivac and it is beyond boring. And truthfully unless the Terran macros and/or drops their hearts out, it's easier for the zerg to win. So Bring on the new strategies creative Terrans, I can't wait for them!
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its pretty simple, the matchup is retardedly broken atm, I watch kr terrans lose to trash na zergs all the time. But that doesn't mean if you lose a tvz its not your fault(because most people on tl suck). It just so happens that the skill ceiling for zerg reaches a point where they have sufficient creep spread and macro to be able to 1 a their way to victory with very simple infestor control and as usual the terran cant make mistakes, has to play very clean
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On June 18 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote:
Ok so pre-patch the Queen range was 3. Post patch it's 5. The obvious solution here is to just compromise and make it 4, then the matchup will once again be perfectly balanced :D
And I really am curious to start seeing new styles out of Terrans. All I see right now is Bio/Medivac or Marine/Tank/Medivac and it is beyond boring. And truthfully unless the Terran macros and/or drops their hearts out, it's easier for the zerg to win. So Bring on the new strategies creative Terrans, I can't wait for them!
What, unlike the uber-creative Zerg compositions of Infestor+whatever?
I don't understand the complaint about marine/tank/medivac. Those are the backbone units of Terran. Mech is untenable because of how slow it is. Any other army composition is silly, gimmicky nonsense.
TvZ was by far the most liked matchup in competitive SC2 for the past year or so, once we regularly saw healthy midgames.
Marine/tank/medivac makes for micro-intensive, drop-intensive play. The more marine-heavy a style, the more tempo-based the games are. "Creative" sounds like gimmicky semi-all ins with risky tech, or passively building up to some late game miracle composition.
Mech is SO boring to watch it's not even funny.
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On June 18 2012 17:18 ArcticMuse wrote:
Why was this featured...
Because authors are featured, not the individual threads? It's like asking why is Destiny featured because one time you saw him stream 2 hours of building a computer on Newegg.
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On June 18 2012 17:26 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote:
Ok so pre-patch the Queen range was 3. Post patch it's 5. The obvious solution here is to just compromise and make it 4, then the matchup will once again be perfectly balanced :D
And I really am curious to start seeing new styles out of Terrans. All I see right now is Bio/Medivac or Marine/Tank/Medivac and it is beyond boring. And truthfully unless the Terran macros and/or drops their hearts out, it's easier for the zerg to win. So Bring on the new strategies creative Terrans, I can't wait for them! What, unlike the uber-creative Zerg compositions of Infestor+whatever? I don't understand the complaint about marine/tank/medivac. Those are the backbone units of Terran. Mech is untenable because of how slow it is. Any other army composition is silly, gimmicky nonsense. TvZ was by far the most liked matchup in competitive SC2 for the past year or so, once we regularly saw healthy midgames. Marine/tank/medivac makes for micro-intensive, drop-intensive play. The more marine-heavy a style, the more tempo-based the games are. "Creative" sounds like gimmicky semi-all ins with risky tech, or passively building up to some late game miracle composition. Mech is SO boring to watch it's not even funny.
I think you mean the current tvz pvz and tvp are SO boring to watch its not even funny.
The mirrors are the best matchup to spectate atm (which is quite sad considering they were hated so much at the start)
The non-mirror matchups are either blob vs blob or some stupid timing attack (zvp is almost always timing from p) and tvz will probably go in that direction as well. The patch essentially made tvz the same as pvz, where zerg gets completely free third and just chills on drones for the early game. Marine tank vs ling bane muta was the only point in sc2 where there was that "back and forth" element to the game(ignore mirror matchups). It is now completely non existant and the games come down to one big battle 90% of the time. Econ doesn't even play a large factor once the game reaches stalemate positions in lategame where both are maxed. Winner of battle wins the game, so exciting!
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Queen buff made it so you can't pressure for shit early game.
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I hope alot of progamers switch from T> protoss or zerg. Some are allready doing it. Should really send a signal to Blizzard abaut their balance policy.
TvZ went from the best matchup in the game to a zergfest.
But hey, "terran OP!" Right guys? Right?
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Thanks for the blog now i know i need to mass queens! haha
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EPT
