EPTTvZ is a joke currently - Page 10
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jdsowa
405 Posts
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RageCommodore
Germany912 Posts
Edit: I'm also not sure what I'm doing wrong in ZvT as I still regulary get owned by Hellion elevators :/ ( <--- not a high level Zerg) | ||
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Dodgin
Canada39254 Posts
On June 18 2012 21:31 Narw wrote: TvZ is fine, OP is a joke. wow you sure won me over | ||
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Grumbels
Netherlands7028 Posts
If anyone's following Dream Hack, the final standings are 3/16 terrans and now two of those are already knocked out for the ro8. (and I would say Hero is favored against Taeja too, meaning it'd be 0/8 terrans left). And of course for the last Korean TSL qualifier, terran did spectacularly bad as well. I think Terran can only really win if they take advantage of timings and preparation. | ||
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Narw
Poland884 Posts
I made a post that is appropriate to the "content" that is presented here. This is nothing more than bunch of whinning, it can't be treated seriously and it dosn't deserve any serious answers. User was warned for this post | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
On June 18 2012 22:01 jdsowa wrote: Hi, terran player here. My friend was telling me about these units the other day. The banshee, raven, thor and battlecruiser. I mean, they sound cool and all. But I still think I should be able to defeat zerg's T3 with my T1 bio. I guess I'm just lazy. See, I'd basically been getting free wins for the last year and a half with my T1 units. And now I'm being asked to actually explore new ideas and leave my comfort zone? I'm not too keen that. Wow I'm laughing my ass off | ||
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Bazinga
Germany132 Posts
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro, because it's Jinro) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is. Edit: (DH Spoiler) + Show Spoiler + Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke. On the DH Spoiler: + Show Spoiler + That most likely worked because nerchio had almost no vision of the right side of the map. With proper scouting it would have been no problem to fend off those small attacks with groups of zerglings. The bottom line is that brat_ok was only able to put up a fight because he had superior multitasking and nerchio made a mistake. | ||
etofok
138 Posts
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On June 18 2012 22:19 Narw wrote: I made a post that is appropriate to the "content" that is presented here. This is nothing more then bunch of whinning, it can't be treated seriously and it dosn't deserve any serious answers. Agreed. I'm still wondering why this blog is featured. It's just a balance whine at its finest. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On June 18 2012 22:21 Bazinga wrote: On the DH Spoiler: + Show Spoiler + That most likely worked because nerchio had almost no vision of the right side of the map. With proper scouting it would have been no problem to fend off those small attacks with groups of zerglings. The bottom line is that brat_ok was only able to put up a fight because he had superior multitasking and nerchio made a mistake. + Show Spoiler + Why do you think it's okay to devalue the results of a match like that? BratOK played really well, and he almost came back from a serious disadvantage with some really good drops and multitask, but Nerchio's macro, early-game control, and late-game crisis management and decision making allowed him to win in the end. The zerg won, but the game was not a joke. It was a good game where the player who played better won. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. I completely and utterly agree with you. When I lose it's because I played like shit. I don't personally find TvZ to be frustrating at all. My complaint is as a spectator. Really really good terrans are playing really really good zergs and the games are horrible dreck. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On June 18 2012 22:28 Heh_ wrote: Agreed. I'm still wondering why this blog is featured. It's just a balance whine at its finest. They feature authors, not their individual posts. Any post that a featured blogger makes is put in the sidebar, ordered chronologically by last post made in it. Why is this so hard to understand? | ||
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Sadistx
Zimbabwe5568 Posts
On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote: I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is. Edit: (DH Spoiler) + Show Spoiler + Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke. I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts. If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience. | ||
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yeint
Estonia2329 Posts
On June 18 2012 22:01 jdsowa wrote: Hi, terran player here. My friend was telling me about these units the other day. The banshee, raven, thor and battlecruiser. I mean, they sound cool and all. But I still think I should be able to defeat zerg's T3 with my T1 bio. I guess I'm just lazy. See, I'd basically been getting free wins for the last year and a half with my T1 units. And now I'm being asked to actually explore new ideas and leave my comfort zone? I'm not too keen that. Because tanks and medivacs don't exist. Also Zerg never uses lings and roaches and banelings in the late game. Also, face it, any unit with the word "cruiser" in its name is BW fan service at this point and isn't viable in much of anything. Do you really think you added anything of value to this conversation with your nonsensical strawman? | ||
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Alpino
Brazil4390 Posts
On June 18 2012 13:13 iaguz wrote: People who think that ravens are the cure to TvZ are the same class of completely fucking retarded as those who thought nydus worms were the cure to ZvT back when it was horrible for zergs. The actual cures were balance changes, better maps and refinement of basic shit. Ravens are good at killing broods if you can turtle and get a bunch out with enough energy. This is a good strategy on metropolis because that is a map where it's super easy to do nothing but secure 5 bases and drop occasionally so you don't feel bad about doing nothing for 50 minutes. That's it. They tickle ultralisks and don't do much else. They're very expensive and take a long time to produce and build up energy for. If you get a bunch in preparation for broodlords and he goes ultralisks instead then you look extremely fucking stupid. And seeing as you have to start ravens well in time for broods, there's none of this scouting that'll help you. TvZ right now feels awful as a terran currently. This isn't helped that being Australian my local scene is already full of bloody zergs already. Good ones. Anyway, it feels pretty awful, and that's mostly because of queens. I didn't mind a lot of the terran nerfs in the past, pretty much all of them really. Yea ghosts were kinda dumb with snipe. Gold bases were retarded. Blue flames were stupid. All good changes, and terrans soldiered on just fine because we were good players who didn't need things that stupid. Overlord change, yea ok zergs always felt uncomfortable early game dealing with 1 base plays they couldn't really see coming. Ok fine. But queens are fucking imbalanced as they are now. A Zerg who sees you going 13 gas can get 2 queens and have no problem setting down creep. A zerg who sees you going 1 rax fe/14 CC can get 6 queens, 3 bases and 70 drones. If they lose drones to harassment they can just make more while the queen cleans it up. With 3 hatcheries and good injects they have all the larvae they need and with 2 saturated bases they have the money. Queens are a very strong defensive unit with no exploitable weaknesses. The only weaknesses they have are slow off creep, fat so they concave bad en masse and are psionic so they take 50 damage from ghost snipe. They are also a bit tricky to mass produce unlike roaches but that's ok you only need 6. Apart from that they have roughly the same damage as roaches except they have more hp, don't have vulnerability to marauders, can attack air, can spread creep, can do injects, can heal things, don't cost gas, don't require much tech and fulfil the similar function to roaches which is keeping hellions away for cheap. Cheaper even. And unlike roaches again if you don't get much value out of them it's ok! If you make like 6 roaches when saturating 3 bases then you're stuck with this shitty unit that doesn't do much. If you make 3 additional queens then you can spread a shitload of creep and have leftover queens for when you make more hatcheries. There's pretty much no downside other then a vulnerability to mass marine/scv all in which I feel zergs will figure out soon (hint, use overlords to scout our gases. If no gas, make a baneling nest and get ready to freewin the terran) and the rest is upside; 3 saturated bases quick as you like and tons of creep. If the terran is greedy then it's probably ok since you're being pretty much as greedy as you can. There's a lot of other things I could go on about as /whingyterran but queens are pretty much the biggest qualm I have with the mu. Either we get balance change or we get a revolutionist. Either way I hope we get one very soon. Oh my god thank you. If I hear "make ravens man" one more time I'll slit my throat. DH Spoiler+ Show Spoiler + : no more terrans, BRAT_OK played amazing.. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On June 18 2012 22:42 Sadistx wrote: I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts. If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience. Aren't 3cc and 15cc supposed to lose to busts? It's a greedy build versus an allin before the extra economy makes you safe. One thing I've noticed is that terrans who lose to busts tend to lose to busts when they don't have tanks or good simcity. This has only been in the streams I've watched (Idra has been up on these types of busts recently.) Confirm/deny? | ||
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Heh_
Singapore2712 Posts
On June 18 2012 22:37 yeint wrote: They feature authors, not their individual posts. Any post that a featured blogger makes is put in the sidebar, ordered chronologically by last post made in it. Why is this so hard to understand? Yes I do. They certainly featured the wrong person. If you wanna post a lengthy balance whine, you can be a featured poster (whiner) on the bnet forums. | ||
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Bazinga
Germany132 Posts
On June 18 2012 22:34 Vega62a wrote: + Show Spoiler + Why do you think it's okay to devalue the results of a match like that? BratOK played really well, and he almost came back from a serious disadvantage with some really good drops and multitask, but Nerchio's macro, early-game control, and late-game crisis management and decision making allowed him to win in the end. The zerg won, but the game was not a joke. It was a good game where the player who played better won. I think we should step back from discussing that game in this thread, so here is my last response on that topic  + Show Spoiler + I never said, that that game was a joke, and i don't believe it was, and I do not think i devalue the results of the match with pointing out why a certain tactic worked well and almost enabled brat_ok to make a comeback. Both Nerchio and Brat_ok are great players and both played well, the situation you have been pointing out and trying to make an example of just wasn't a good choice in my opinion. | ||
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Vega62a
946 Posts
On June 18 2012 22:53 Bazinga wrote: I think we should step back from discussing that game in this thread, so here is my last response on that topic + Show Spoiler + I never said, that that game was a joke, and i don't believe it was, and I do not think i devalue the results of the match with pointing out why a certain tactic worked well and almost enabled brat_ok to make a comeback. Both Nerchio and Brat_ok are great players and both played well, the situation you have been pointing out and trying to make an example of just wasn't a good choice in my opinion. Agree, here's my last post on the topic as well + Show Spoiler + The point I was trying to make is that TvZ is not an unwinnable MU or a MU where you have to outplay your opponent by an absurd amount to win, and that it's dynamic and tense, even when one side or the other wins. The tactic that BratOK used is not a particularly uncommon one, I see it all the time, and it's HOW you come back against a zerg with an eco advantage towards the lategame. You don't have to wait for your opponent to screw up for it to work, you can force it. That's all I'm saying - it's not a dead MU where one side steamrolls the other after a lose timer goes off or anything. | ||
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sluggaslamoo
Australia4494 Posts
On June 18 2012 21:32 beetlelisk wrote: What hole are you talking about? Terran's strength always was in early-mid game aggressive builds. That's the gaping hole. Its silly to think 1 and 2 base aggression can last forever. Eventually pros will figure out how to defend everything. Flash broke BW in the same way that Overlord Speed and Queen range catalysed the evolution of defensive gameplay. Eventually pros will combine the list of extremely subtle hints and work out the exact build you are doing. Flash can go CC first against Protoss knowing that he knows exactly what build you are doing and where to scout it, even if its a proxy robo. Luckily Protoss can stand toe-to-toe with Terran late-game by being extra-greedy themselves, this is not the same for TvZ in SC2. There is no such thing as Terran greed, really. Zerg was destined to be the strongest race simply due to spawn larva, I guess even Artosis thought this and that's why Idra picked Zerg, it was just a matter of how long. All races should be good at being greedy and have strong late game compositions. | ||
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