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On June 18 2012 22:42 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote:I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is. Edit: (DH Spoiler) + Show Spoiler +Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke. I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts. If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
you know you can scan with terran right? the only way zerg can scout is with overlords. you can still shoot an overlord. you can not shoot a scan. Are you really suggesting that zerg shouldn't be allowed to scout?
terran doesn't HAVE TO make hellions to see an all in coming. terran probably has the easiest time scouting of any race. I think you dont get why people open hellions in the first place. Hint : scouting info is only a bonus. The reason people make hellions was in your post. You keep the zerg in his base, while you have map control. hellions beat lings therefore zerg can't have lings on the map.
you make it sound like medivac tech is so high up in the tech tree and takes forever to get. It isn't.
also dont compare apples with pears. what does having creep spread or ling speed as a zerg player have to do with anything terran or anything you said for that matter?
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On June 18 2012 22:42 Sadistx wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote:I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is. Edit: (DH Spoiler) + Show Spoiler +Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke. I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts. If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience.
Wait, you are going hellions and speedlings lock you in the base?
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 18 2012 22:47 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 22:42 Sadistx wrote:On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote:I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is. Edit: (DH Spoiler) + Show Spoiler +Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke. I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts. If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience. Aren't 3cc and 15cc supposed to lose to busts? It's a greedy build versus an allin before the extra economy makes you safe. One thing I've noticed is that terrans who lose to busts tend to lose to busts when they don't have tanks or good simcity. This has only been in the streams I've watched (Idra has been up on these types of busts recently.) Confirm/deny?
If you make tanks blindly you are *unreal* far behind vs a zerg who takes a 3rd and drones. He'll have 70 drones, a 3rd, 4 lings, and you still can't take your 3rd because you don't know how many lings he actually has.
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On June 18 2012 22:49 Heh_ wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 22:37 yeint wrote:On June 18 2012 22:28 Heh_ wrote:On June 18 2012 22:19 Narw wrote:On June 18 2012 22:03 Dodgin wrote:On June 18 2012 21:31 Narw wrote:
TvZ is fine, OP is a joke. wow you sure won me over I made a post that is appropriate to the "content" that is presented here. This is nothing more then bunch of whinning, it can't be treated seriously and it dosn't deserve any serious answers. Agreed. I'm still wondering why this blog is featured. It's just a balance whine at its finest. They feature authors, not their individual posts. Any post that a featured blogger makes is put in the sidebar, ordered chronologically by last post made in it. Why is this so hard to understand? Yes I do. They certainly featured the wrong person. If you wanna post a lengthy balance whine, you can be a featured poster (whiner) on the bnet forums.
Do you not realize what a blog is? Even if this particular post is of substandard quality, that doesn't mean the rest of his posts are not worthy of being featured.
Blogs are personal posts, and people are allowed to speak their mind about their subjective opinions about matchups.
You, on the other hand, are being insulting and adding nothing of value to the conversation. Why is "balance whine" so bad, but all the ridiculous "make ravens and BCs your tier 1 a mover" non-comments aren't?
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On June 18 2012 23:38 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 22:42 Sadistx wrote:On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote:I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is. Edit: (DH Spoiler) + Show Spoiler +Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke. I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts. If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience. Wait, you are going hellions and speedlings lock you in the base?
So Im not crazy.
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On June 18 2012 23:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 22:47 Vega62a wrote:On June 18 2012 22:42 Sadistx wrote:On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote:I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is. Edit: (DH Spoiler) + Show Spoiler +Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke. I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts. If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience. Aren't 3cc and 15cc supposed to lose to busts? It's a greedy build versus an allin before the extra economy makes you safe. One thing I've noticed is that terrans who lose to busts tend to lose to busts when they don't have tanks or good simcity. This has only been in the streams I've watched (Idra has been up on these types of busts recently.) Confirm/deny? If you make tanks blindly you are *unreal* far behind vs a zerg who takes a 3rd and drones. He'll have 70 drones, a 3rd, 4 lings, and you still can't take your 3rd because you don't know how many lings he actually has.
Pretty much what jinro said. Tanks are a good unit, but when you make tanks in response to a zerg going super fast 3 hatch 70 drones then you're doing the Wrong Thing. Sadly a zerg who makes a 3rd hatchery and shows you a few extra queens can actually still be a zerg who wants to roach/bane you out of existence (see: a lot of unhappy terrans in GSL/GSTL) so it's sort of a case of get tanks and survive annoying timings, or get tanks and lose because of zerg economy.
Which has given me a bit of fuel for thought in my own play as far as openings go, but it's still a rather frustrating situation.
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Try Hellion fe into bancheeze with stealth then get a raven while building and armory and 2nd factory for thors and transition into mech. Check Lyyna thread for mech tips and late game winning scenarios.
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As a Zerg player I think it's pretty tough for Terran, honestly. For the first time I think Zerg really is favoured in this matchup. All I can say is that we have to wait a reasonnable amount of time before we can say it's really imbalanced. Obviously when you get nerfed there's a moment when players haven't adapted and lose, we see this everytime.
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And die straight up to a roach/bling bust?no thx
and by the time your mech army is strong enough,he stomps you with hivetech.
You have to do dmg no matter what,and tell me,when was the last time you saw a cloakshee do dmg to a zerg?
(2 port banshee is a cheese in my opinion,and the last time i saw it was Cloud,a year ago)
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Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games?
Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote:
Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore?
A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question.
I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it.
Your argument essentially defeats itself in this:
On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote:
Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win)
This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend.
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On June 18 2012 23:45 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 22:47 Vega62a wrote:On June 18 2012 22:42 Sadistx wrote:On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote:I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is. Edit: (DH Spoiler) + Show Spoiler +Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke. I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts. If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience. Aren't 3cc and 15cc supposed to lose to busts? It's a greedy build versus an allin before the extra economy makes you safe. One thing I've noticed is that terrans who lose to busts tend to lose to busts when they don't have tanks or good simcity. This has only been in the streams I've watched (Idra has been up on these types of busts recently.) Confirm/deny? If you make tanks blindly you are *unreal* far behind vs a zerg who takes a 3rd and drones. He'll have 70 drones, a 3rd, 4 lings, and you still can't take your 3rd because you don't know how many lings he actually has.
I see - thank you for the knowledge bomb! Kinda seems like the solution to this problem is more information, knowing when zerg is doing what. How that information is acquired, I've not a clue since Terran can't scout with hellion aggression as easily.
Overall it sounds like the core problem is that terrans are having a hard time being safe from this particular roach/baneling bust without a blind counter, since hellion aggression is not as effective as it used to be (resulting in a diminished ability to scout with aggression) causing them to turn to more eco-oriented solutions, causing zerg to refine the roach/ling/baneling bust. It reminds me a bit of when protoss was having a hard time vs the threat of 1/1/1. It seems like more of a metagame issue than anything, to be honest - or are terrans also thinking that the mid/late game are difficult to win without massively outplaying your opponent?
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TvZ was the best matchup to spectate, the matchup that made me hope in sc2.
Since the patch, no non mirror matchup is watchable anymore. At the exact moment blizzard is hoping to capt the broodwar audience, they make their game horrible to watch. Dat decision making.
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On June 18 2012 23:34 eu.exodus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 22:42 Sadistx wrote:On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote:I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is. Edit: (DH Spoiler) + Show Spoiler +Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke. I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts. If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience. you know you can scan with terran right? the only way zerg can scout is with overlords. you can still shoot an overlord. you can not shoot a scan. Are you really suggesting that zerg shouldn't be allowed to scout? terran doesn't HAVE TO make hellions to see an all in coming. terran probably has the easiest time scouting of any race. I think you dont get why people open hellions in the first place. Hint : scouting info is only a bonus. The reason people make hellions was in your post. You keep the zerg in his base, while you have map control. hellions beat lings therefore zerg can't have lings on the map. you make it sound like medivac tech is so high up in the tech tree and takes forever to get. It isn't. also dont compare apples with pears. what does having creep spread or ling speed as a zerg player have to do with anything terran or anything you said for that matter?
The scan argument is getting old. No Terran is going to give up his early game MULEs to have a % chance at scouting an obscure metagame all-in that occurs 5% of ZvT's when in actuality they're losing 95% of their games due to the Zerg's explosive economy and production.
Insinuating that he's saying Zerg should be forbidden from scouting is overreacting a bit and taking his words out of context to stir drama, don't do that, it serves no purpose in a discussion besides making it impossible.
Your talk about the hellion is a bit out of place, hellion openers have become largely ineffective because of the Queen range icnrease, which is what the op presents as a problem in the current state of the TvZ matchup. Saying that hellion scouting is a "nice bonus" only proves that you're the one who has no idea of the hellions purpose in TvZ. You can't contain a Zerg who's building queens anymore because the units have the same range, Zerg doesn't have to build zerglings, only drones, that's the point. Queens with spinecrawlers just gives Zerg such a disproportionate amount of safety versus agressive Terran play despite the fact that they're only producing drones. And it's not like the extra Queens are dead weight since they can deal damage, spread creep faster than hellions can kill it and transfuse for clutch defense.
Medivacs are relatively high on the Terran tech tree, what's your point?
He's saying creep spread combined with speedlings gives you complete map vision and the highest speed force in the game. You've probably not experienced what it's like to move out with a Terran army, but there's no escape once you leave your base vs mass speedling infestor. You can't move out see you have an inferior army and back up to your base. Once you leave you've committed your entire army, making it hard to do any pressure besides all-ins, hellion (now mostly ineffective) and medivac harass (which all rely on Zerg failing to a certain extent).
Watch some high level replays from the Terran perspective to get an idea of how little vision they have in comparision to Zerg.
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On June 18 2012 08:46 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 08:45 TERRANLOL wrote:
You guys aren't excited for the impending patch? lol
Terran hasn't been patched in forever. What will we get? a thor buff? THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES Salvage nerf revert.
omg
on topic: TvZ used to be the best matchup to play and to watch. Now it sukcs
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On June 19 2012 01:21 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 23:34 eu.exodus wrote:On June 18 2012 22:42 Sadistx wrote:On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote:I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is. Edit: (DH Spoiler) + Show Spoiler +Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke. I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts. If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience. you know you can scan with terran right? the only way zerg can scout is with overlords. you can still shoot an overlord. you can not shoot a scan. Are you really suggesting that zerg shouldn't be allowed to scout? terran doesn't HAVE TO make hellions to see an all in coming. terran probably has the easiest time scouting of any race. I think you dont get why people open hellions in the first place. Hint : scouting info is only a bonus. The reason people make hellions was in your post. You keep the zerg in his base, while you have map control. hellions beat lings therefore zerg can't have lings on the map. you make it sound like medivac tech is so high up in the tech tree and takes forever to get. It isn't. also dont compare apples with pears. what does having creep spread or ling speed as a zerg player have to do with anything terran or anything you said for that matter? The scan argument is getting old. No Terran is going to give up his early game MULEs to have a % chance at scouting an obscure metagame all-in that occurs 5% of ZvT's when in actuality they're losing 95% of their games due to the Zerg's explosive economy and production. Insinuating that he's saying Zerg should be forbidden from scouting is overreacting a bit and taking his words out of context to stir drama, don't do that, it serves no purpose in a discussion besides making it impossible. Your talk about the hellion is a bit out of place, hellion openers have become largely ineffective because of the Queen range icnrease, which is what the op presents as a problem in the current state of the TvZ matchup. Saying that hellion scouting is a "nice bonus" only proves that you're the one who has no idea of the hellions purpose in TvZ. You can't contain a Zerg who's building queens anymore because the units have the same range, Zerg doesn't have to build zerglings, only drones, that's the point. Queens with spinecrawlers just gives Zerg such a disproportionate amount of safety versus agressive Terran play despite the fact that they're only producing drones. And it's not like the extra Queens are dead weight since they can deal damage, spread creep faster than hellions can kill it and transfuse for clutch defense. Medivacs are relatively high on the Terran tech tree, what's your point? He's saying creep spread combined with speedlings gives you complete map vision and the highest speed force in the game. You've probably not experienced what it's like to move out with a Terran army, but there's no escape once you leave your base vs mass speedling infestor. You can't move out see you have an inferior army and back up to your base. Once you leave you've committed your entire army, making it hard to do any pressure besides all-ins, hellion (now mostly ineffective) and medivac harass (which all rely on Zerg failing to a certain extent). Watch some high level replays from the Terran perspective to get an idea of how little vision they have in comparision to Zerg.
Maybe this is silly, but if terrans have a difficult time using hellions to get information, have any of you ever considered proxying a rax and floating it to get information? It takes an absurdly long time to kill with only queens, and you should easily be able to count drones / tech / timings to figure out if you need to play greedy or safe. Plus it's actually cheaper than making 4 hellions and a reactor, and you don't have to waste a mule.
May well be silly, but I feel like it's not entirely absurd.
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The fatalism is high in this one.
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The inability to bunker rush early game due to the queen range is just silly now! like seriously, I could build 3 bunkers with marine support, the zerg just a-moves his ling while then focusing down the scvs with his sniper queens.
Pisses me off so much that zerg can drone for 7 minutes straight and then go for a 12 minute hive 
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On June 19 2012 02:03 Vega62a wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 01:21 Saechiis wrote:On June 18 2012 23:34 eu.exodus wrote:On June 18 2012 22:42 Sadistx wrote:On June 18 2012 21:53 Vega62a wrote:I understand terran frustrations with TvZ - I play zerg, and sometimes I'm ashamed of how little it takes me to clean up an army if they screw up, and how much +range queens help me deal with my own mistakes in the early game. But here's the deal - I'd bet ten to one that for almost all of the Terrans posting in this thread (deference to Jinro and LuckyFool, the pro players) if you sit down and stare at a frustrating loss that makes you say "FDSDDSALJKGL ZERG OP", you'll find that your army was out of position when you lost it, you could have split your marines better, set up your tanks sooner, cleared the creep more aggressively, handled your drops better. Terrans usually lose when they mishandle their army for a few seconds. That's incredibly frustrating, I get that - but the MU isn't a joke. As I type this I'm watching Keen vs Stephano, and I wonder how anybody could say it is. Edit: (DH Spoiler) + Show Spoiler +Nerchio vs BratOK game 3 - A really great example of how Terran can come back from a defecit and from zerg being on the scary infestor/bl combo by constantly dropping and saccing small groups of marines to whittle down zerg's economy. It's not a certain way to win, and I'm pretty sure Nerchio's going to win, but I don't know how someone could call this game a joke. I wish it was just the army control. But it's the builds also. Zerg now has near perfect scouting with just 1 overlord sac. Terran has to make hellions to see an all in coming and is basically forced a certain tech path and is locked inside their base after ling speed is done, until medivac tech. Also, 3 cc and 15cc autolose to a LOT of busts. If you think this is fair and the queen/ovie buff were needed...well. Try not getting ling speed or playing entirely without creep spread 1 game, and you'll see the frustration terrans experience. you know you can scan with terran right? the only way zerg can scout is with overlords. you can still shoot an overlord. you can not shoot a scan. Are you really suggesting that zerg shouldn't be allowed to scout? terran doesn't HAVE TO make hellions to see an all in coming. terran probably has the easiest time scouting of any race. I think you dont get why people open hellions in the first place. Hint : scouting info is only a bonus. The reason people make hellions was in your post. You keep the zerg in his base, while you have map control. hellions beat lings therefore zerg can't have lings on the map. you make it sound like medivac tech is so high up in the tech tree and takes forever to get. It isn't. also dont compare apples with pears. what does having creep spread or ling speed as a zerg player have to do with anything terran or anything you said for that matter? The scan argument is getting old. No Terran is going to give up his early game MULEs to have a % chance at scouting an obscure metagame all-in that occurs 5% of ZvT's when in actuality they're losing 95% of their games due to the Zerg's explosive economy and production. Insinuating that he's saying Zerg should be forbidden from scouting is overreacting a bit and taking his words out of context to stir drama, don't do that, it serves no purpose in a discussion besides making it impossible. Your talk about the hellion is a bit out of place, hellion openers have become largely ineffective because of the Queen range icnrease, which is what the op presents as a problem in the current state of the TvZ matchup. Saying that hellion scouting is a "nice bonus" only proves that you're the one who has no idea of the hellions purpose in TvZ. You can't contain a Zerg who's building queens anymore because the units have the same range, Zerg doesn't have to build zerglings, only drones, that's the point. Queens with spinecrawlers just gives Zerg such a disproportionate amount of safety versus agressive Terran play despite the fact that they're only producing drones. And it's not like the extra Queens are dead weight since they can deal damage, spread creep faster than hellions can kill it and transfuse for clutch defense. Medivacs are relatively high on the Terran tech tree, what's your point? He's saying creep spread combined with speedlings gives you complete map vision and the highest speed force in the game. You've probably not experienced what it's like to move out with a Terran army, but there's no escape once you leave your base vs mass speedling infestor. You can't move out see you have an inferior army and back up to your base. Once you leave you've committed your entire army, making it hard to do any pressure besides all-ins, hellion (now mostly ineffective) and medivac harass (which all rely on Zerg failing to a certain extent). Watch some high level replays from the Terran perspective to get an idea of how little vision they have in comparision to Zerg. Maybe this is silly, but if terrans have a difficult time using hellions to get information, have any of you ever considered proxying a rax and floating it to get information? It takes an absurdly long time to kill with only queens, and you should easily be able to count drones / tech / timings to figure out if you need to play greedy or safe. Plus it's actually cheaper than making 4 hellions and a reactor, and you don't have to waste a mule. May well be silly, but I feel like it's not entirely absurd.
I feel like it'd be pretty easy for zerg to hide their drone count from a floating rax. But it is probably the cheapest reliable scout that terran has.
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On June 18 2012 23:34 eu.exodus wrote:
terran doesn't HAVE TO make hellions to see an all in coming. terran probably has the easiest time scouting of any race.
That made me laugh. Unfortunately, my friend, terran is not zerg and we don't have 60 workers by the 7-th minute mark, so when we are scanning, we are actually sacrificing economy because being 20 workers behind AND scanning is not fun at all
You aren't sacrificing anything by having creep spread all over the map, or by having overlords at the angles of the map. And I wish to see a terran that will consistently make vikings to clean up overlords vs a zerg that has muta, or actually, since infestors counter everything, one fungal and three infested terran, and no viking. Consider that you deny scouting with BOTH your tech paths (both muta and infestor provide crazy map control and are direct counters to what terran has to do to deny you scouting - raven, small groups of marines, viking) So you just deny scouting for free and get scouting for free (overlords are flying scout and supply depots, creep spread costs only energy and you make queens anyway for production). That is it. You get scouting for free and deny scouting for free. Yet terran has the easiest time scouting of any race. I am still laughing. Zerg lunacy has no ends.
Also, just as an experiment. Pick any random pro game in TvZ. Fast forward to minute 12. Check terran vision and check zerg vision. I bet you zerg is going to have about twice the vision that terran has. How is it terran having easy time scouting?
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EPT
