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Anyone thinking ravens work in TvZ need to watch Stephano vs Puma (g2? at DH) and realize if the zerg doesnt scratch their balls for 15 minutes like Dimaga/Idra do all the time they basically roll over the terran minutes after their 8gas/10gas economy.
Sacrificing tech or whatever to drone hard with queens defending isnt even a detriment anymore seeing as can really delay your infestor tech with the increased defensive capabilities you've already invested in. Also, Zergs are doing more 2 base shoves nowadays which banshee fast third double ebay (super greedy) isn't the best idea to be caught with.
At least in TvP you can just snipe the observers blanket emp their army and basically snowball yourself to a victory. In TvZ you're just "less behind" in terms of economical/supply after you win a huge fight against a zerg who basically droned to 80 off 7+ queens and then teched straight Hive and there's nothing really you can do about it.
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On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote:
It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
Yeah, first you had to discover your Z and E keys, then you had to discover your T keys. Next it was F, and now early game it's a check if your Q key works. That's a whole lot of innovation!!!!
Also, mass battlecruisers with Yamato cannon is the clear answer to the Zerg problem.
Obviously.
User was warned for this post
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great post
watching tvz is making me depressed at sc2 nowadays. i now enjoy tvt the most by far.
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On June 18 2012 10:59 Sadist wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote:
It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play. You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor.
Probably because they fucking needed them.
Look, I play Terran and Zerg and I'm master level. This is a pretty solid match up for both races and it's not particularly easy for either race, despite what some would suggest with their rants.
I feel that what's being said about Terran players needing to "learn new counters" is actually kind of true. TvZ has been stale as week-old shit for a long time now. It's one of the few match ups in the game that relies on essentially 3 units almost all of the time: marine, tank, medivac.
There are so many more options in our arsenal. I still see that ghosts are woefully underused vs. infestors, I feel that ravens are largely ignored by most players, and I think mech is hardly used at all - simply because the "old standard" is MMT.
I have bitched on this forum for ages about how shit I think tanks are. I think they're a fucking joke in SC2 and in HotS they'll be countered even more than they are now. For a long time I thought they were "required" in TvZ, as shitty as they are; but I now see, after a lot of practice, that they're not - and we do have options. I believe this issue with recent Zerg upgrades is the same sort of thing. We need to stop complaining and start thinking outside the box.
The best thing to do is just look for ways to deal with the changes while we wait for HotS. Then we can laugh at swarm hosts (they'll be shit) and curse at vipers (they'll be good) while we kick ass and chew bubblegum with our new toys.
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On June 18 2012 11:26 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 10:59 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote:
It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play. You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor. There are so many more options in our arsenal. I still see that ghosts are woefully underused vs. infestors, I feel that ravens are largely ignored by most players, and I think mech is hardly used at all - simply because the "old standard" is MMT. I have bitched on this forum for ages about how shit I think tanks are. I think they're a fucking joke in SC2 and in HotS they'll be countered even more than they are now. For a long time I thought they were "required" in TvZ, as shitty as they are; but I now see, after a lot of practice, that they're not - and we do have options. I believe this issue with recent Zerg upgrades is the same sort of thing. We need to stop complaining and start thinking outside the box.
Mech is and has been used quite often with varying degrees of success - to me, just qualitatively, I feel like it has been less successful overall than bio. The top Korean Terrans practice mech all the time -- MVP's said so in multiple interviews and has played mech a lot recently and in 2011 against Zerg, we see Happy using it a lot, Polt uses it quite a few times on his stream, MKP has done so many times in his games, etc. Bomber's been using Ravens recently, and got destroyed by Slivko, and beat an unsuspecting Stephano. I don't believe that it'll become standard once Zergs figure it out.
The only top TvZ player we've never seen use mech (at least not more than 2-3 times in televised matches) is MMA. And, guess what, for the longest time, he was the best TvZ player in the world.
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On June 18 2012 11:10 imBLIND wrote:+ Show Spoiler +I quit SC2 almost a year ago because of reasons like these. I still follow the scene, but I absolutely refuse to play ladder games anymore because Blizzard keeps fucking with the balance of the game just when the state of the game is settling down.
Terran has always been a historically squishy race, both in BW and SC2, relying on micro, timing, and/or massive numbers in order to win games.
Any form of micro terran has an easy counter in the form of a unit or a spell in the Zerg arsenal now. Micro only worked well in BW because it was more difficult to control a larger army when dealing with a small skirmish force (the reason why Boxer is reknown in the BW world) and the limit on larvae. With both of those constraints gone and the developing gameplay, there is no "real" micro that terrans have that can do or threaten severe damage to the zerg infrastructure. They will just simply rebuild quicker than you can sustain the harassment for, and there's no threat of an "invincible" force like the old marine/medic/firebat combo vs zerglings.
Any timing that terrans have do not work because of how well queen/spine turtling is, how inefficient the seige tank is in terms of time and investment, and how most masters can now multitask with the help of smart AI and infinite unit control. Not to mention that zerg can afford to throw away units to snipe the tanks and not worry about your supporting army at all. Or if you somehow get a lot of tanks, by the time you roll out with that army, you're going to be facing broodlords, ultras, and a way bigger army than you anticipated.
And you tell me if Terrans can max out before a zerg and how often a maxed terran army could beat a maxed zerg army with both races' best late game compositions.
Terrans have no more weapons against zerg except for extremely risky gameplay. Most of what luckyfool said is correct.
We don't have anymore early game weapons that work, no mid game weapons other than mild harassment, and really weak late game options.
Nerf the queen to 1 per hatch, nerf the larvae mechanic...nerf something. Terrans will not last long like this at all.
Or we could just buff Terran  . Bring back BBS
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My problem with this queen buff is that queens never ever lose functionality in any stage of the game as zerg. Ever. You will never, ever, ever hear a pro say "oh yeah do early pressure to force queens" because queens are never something the zerg doesn't want
While before, against hellions, you could sometimes force roaches or a heavier investment into zerglings to clear out hellions, now its just Queenx6. Past the X minute mark whenever the zerg decides he's made enough drones and doesn't need his queens to defend, they just get moved to expansions. Roaches (and to a smaller extent lings) lost functionality as the firepower scaled in the lategame, because the ever-increasing numbers of marine/tank or hellion/tank/thor or whatever would mean they would have shorter and shorter lifespans-but now, defensive units become macro mechanics that can just be distributed as you take additional bases and build more macro hatches.
An extremely tough early defense force should not translate so well into lategame usefulness.
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I agree. At this point it's fucking disgusting. It's gotten to a point where the bigger the map = the worse for terran, simply because of the fact that overlords can get anywhere (how the fuck do we stop all overlords from spreading out all over the map?) and mass queen(4-5) is now the norm off 2 base.The game design of making marines the be-all end-all unit for terran fucked this up so god damn bad to the point where early-mid game was the only time we had a chance. Now that's fucked up as well with the zerg buffs.
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On June 18 2012 11:26 Mjolnir wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 10:59 Sadist wrote:On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote:
It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play. You didn't come up with anything. Give me a break. Zerg has received a ton of buffs since beta. Specifically the infestor. Probably because they fucking needed them. Look, I play Terran and Zerg and I'm master level. This is a pretty solid match up for both races and it's not particularly easy for either race, despite what some would suggest with their rants.
Who cares about masters league when players like MVP and DRG say TvZ favours zerg? I mean pro gamers play at a higher level and know better than you.
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intrigue
Washington, D.C9933 Posts
time for 60 hp scvs, quick-building bunkers, and the ability to make rax before depot! hehehe
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The posts here remind me of the ones zergs made 1.5 years ago so so much.
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I agree 100% with lucky here. Zerg and Protoss are able to reporduce there armies much quicker than Terran. I really think the current state of TvZ, means the terran must be aggressive early to be even in the mid game. And while watching a few dreamhack matches, I saw some roach baneling agression that didn't kill the terran, but decimated the natural and in some cases hurt the main. The zerg only has to make workers because there is no way the terran is moving out. The terran has to produce army and workers and infrasture. Thats a ton of money. I actually don't have any idea why zergs don't do this type of push every TvZ. Right now its like the 1/1/1 use to be to protoss.
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Luckyfool amazing post, TvZ is a joke, only way to win is to get very fast 3cc up and go mass bio
but you die if hive tech kicks in, terran can win only between 10min-16min mark its impossible to win other then that 6min and its stupidly hard to win in dat 6 min too
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On June 18 2012 12:07 intrigue wrote:
time for 60 hp scvs, quick-building bunkers, and the ability to make rax before depot! hehehe
And 75 mineral units faster than zerglings that lay 3 mini nukes in the ground :3
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GRAND OLD AMERICA16375 Posts
On June 18 2012 12:29 Megaliskuu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 12:07 intrigue wrote:
time for 60 hp scvs, quick-building bunkers, and the ability to make rax before depot! hehehe And 75 mineral units faster than zerglings that lay 3 mini nukes in the ground :3
and some of that green ball of cloud that smells like skunk farts...
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If you're winning with Ravens I'm inclined to believe that it's because it's out of the norm.
Yes. You might have greater success if your build is not standard, but it might not be because of the strategy it's simply the opponent's misread or poor execution or poor counter-strategy against it. Raven is slow, HSM has the range of a marauder, PDD is good but all air is ridiculously vulnerable to fungal growth anyways.
...Unless the new "Terran revolution" involves raven splitting (it's like splitting unstimmed marines vs a baneling with twice the radius!)
It was funny when Ghost went from 150/150 to 200/100. I suspect it was a veiled nerf since though gas is more valuable than minerals, it's not the case for ghosts in the situations they are used for - or for Terran in general. Early game ghost in TvT isn't quite as good (understatement) after the snipe nerf (read: can't snipe a marine lololol) and Terran is always looking for minerals, not gas. So the lack of a gas dump outside of the raven is still a big problem and will still be a problem going into HotS.
I wouldn't be surprised if the next balance patch is one involving ravens to "push" Terrans into using them in lategame matchups, much like how they "pushed" warp prism usage with a +60 shield buff or "pushed" fast protoss upgrades with a trivial (but in my biased view, extremely annoying and unnecessary) cost buff.
ITS NOT LIKE THEIR GROUND UPGRADES DON'T WORK ON ROBO OR ANYTHING. HINT HINT
tl;dr
On June 18 2012 12:07 intrigue wrote:
time for 60 hp scvs, quick-building bunkers, and the ability to make rax before depot! hehehe
Science vessel plz
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On June 18 2012 10:56 Mutality wrote:
It is Terrans turn to re-learn the game, since the beginning Zergs had to always come up with new innovative ideas to tackle the other races now that our standard game beats t and p standard doesn't mean we are op, it just means that you must change and innovate your standard play.
No no. No more of that. We learned how to play this game multiple times. Each time our race was nerfed, and when the other races couldn't "figure it out" they were given upgrade buffs/immortal buff (protoss) and queen range + overlord speed (zerg) and more.
Stop telling us to figure it out. We already did many, many times over.
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I don't know why people even bother posting T concerns on teamliquid. The entire community would love nothing more than to see T disappear completely. If you're T and you're struggling, either quit, reroll, or just fight it out; don't bother posting here.
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On June 18 2012 12:41 Fission wrote:
I don't know why people even bother posting T concerns on teamliquid. The entire community would love nothing more than to see T disappear completely. If you're T and you're struggling, either quit, reroll, or just fight it out; don't bother posting here.
That's not true at all. Most zergs (before queen buff) enjoyed zvt because it was fun to play and entertaining. it still is but it's harder for terrans, I don't think most of the community wants terran gone. It might be some grudge from the past when terrans said the same things to zerg/toss when they were dominating for a long long time.
I would rather protoss disappear anyway .
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What I really want to see is the race distribution. For some reason we used to get those stats, but we don't anymore, and I'm really curious to see where T sits. I personally haven't played any T players in a couple days now, which is meaningless anecdotal evidence ofc, but w/e.
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EPT
