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On June 18 2012 08:37 Denzil wrote:
Sounds like for the first time since Starcraft 2's inception Terrans aren't steamrolling everyone.
God forbid you need to change the way you play like Protoss had to and Zerg has had to.
Time to change.
I agree with the first sentence. Completely disagree with the second sentence. Shit has been back and forth just like every other damn race.
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On June 18 2012 08:45 TERRANLOL wrote:
You guys aren't excited for the impending patch? lol
Terran hasn't been patched in forever. What will we get? a thor buff? THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES
Salvage nerf revert.
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On June 18 2012 08:38 Bobo_XIII wrote:
I feel like Zerg is a little favored in the matchup largely because Terran is having issues doing any inhibiting damage early-mid game with the recent queen range buff. That said, I also feel like Terrans are kind of in the same situation that a lot of Protoss were in a few months ago when the 11:30 200/200 roach bomb came into play, in that they are so comfortable with an antiquated and figured out playstyle that they're all having issues transitioning out of it.
I'm a master Z player, and it's fucking retarded how Terrans will still get 6-8 hellions out and think they're going to do any damage to the surplus of creep-spreading queens and good wall-ins that Zergs have started using. Reactored hellions have been an opening since GSL season 2, and it's feel and timings have been fleshed out and widely documented. We're sort of in the same situation that Zergs were in when mutaling/bling was being figured out and completely dissected. Time to start doing things a bit different, IMO.
All this said though, the queen range does need to be looked at.
I don't know what kind of players you're playing, but nobody that's not god-awful opens reactor hellions anymore. The only opener that involves hellions that you will see these days is 1rax fe into reactor hellion banshee, or 1raxfe/15cc into fast third with 4 hellions so that you can hope to scout an incoming allin.
TvZ is a complete joke these days, and most top terrans are just coinflipping (15cc into 3rd off 1/2rax for example), or praying that zerg gets supply blocked for half an hour and floats 2k/1k. Ravens seem like they have potential, but it takes 10 minutes to get a useful amount of them.
It's funny that I don't seem to be the only one that has a 30% winrate TvP and TvZ, yet I almost never lose TvT. I'm not sure what that actually means, but it's rather interesting.
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As a top masters terran i just find it really hard with what i do if i try to play really greedy and it gets scouted (ols so fast zzzzz) they can counter me, do damage and drone up behind it to get ahead.
Currently TvZ as of late has become my worst matchup overnight i'm not complaining though i've been getting better with it because i've gone back to Marine Marauder Tank Ghost Viking mid-late game. Ghosts for the sole purpose of snipe for infestors (bonus damage to psyonic too good!) and nuke harass.
still with my tactics i mostly lose to high mobility flanks in my army (i have like mad slow stuff yo! >~>) or midgame all in attacks to stop my greediness or just a small mistake where i lose my army to like 30 banelings because i lag (my computer is really bad TT;)
Right now its not looking too good for Terran players because also TvP is extremely hard as well but hopfully we just keep fighting and figure out stuff.
As far as 2 base timings to throw off zerg players i kind of gave up on those builds now because they just don't really work. Queens are op and scouting is made way easier for zerg especially with the way the maps hard they easily tuck OLs away in every nook and cranny. TT;
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I like how this balance whine is in the "featured blogs"
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On June 18 2012 08:48 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 08:38 Bobo_XIII wrote:
I feel like Zerg is a little favored in the matchup largely because Terran is having issues doing any inhibiting damage early-mid game with the recent queen range buff. That said, I also feel like Terrans are kind of in the same situation that a lot of Protoss were in a few months ago when the 11:30 200/200 roach bomb came into play, in that they are so comfortable with an antiquated and figured out playstyle that they're all having issues transitioning out of it.
I'm a master Z player, and it's fucking retarded how Terrans will still get 6-8 hellions out and think they're going to do any damage to the surplus of creep-spreading queens and good wall-ins that Zergs have started using. Reactored hellions have been an opening since GSL season 2, and it's feel and timings have been fleshed out and widely documented. We're sort of in the same situation that Zergs were in when mutaling/bling was being figured out and completely dissected. Time to start doing things a bit different, IMO.
All this said though, the queen range does need to be looked at. I don't know what kind of players you're playing, but nobody that's not god-awful opens reactor hellions anymore. The only opener that involves hellions that you will see these days is 1rax fe into reactor hellion banshee, or 1raxfe/15cc into fast third with 4 hellions so that you can hope to scout an incoming allin. TvZ is a complete joke these days, and most top terrans are just coinflipping (15cc into 3rd off 1/2rax for example), or praying that zerg gets supply blocked for half an hour and floats 2k/1k. Ravens seem like they have potential, but it takes 10 minutes to get a useful amount of them. It's funny that I don't seem to be the only one that has a 30% winrate TvP and TvZ, yet I almost never lose TvT. I'm not sure what that actually means, but it's rather interesting.
Yeah, you're right; I worded that poorly. You guys open a variant of early CC these days, but people are still really inclined to dump all their shit into hellions in some form or fashion immediately after
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On June 18 2012 08:58 Bobo_XIII wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 08:48 eourcs wrote:On June 18 2012 08:38 Bobo_XIII wrote:
I feel like Zerg is a little favored in the matchup largely because Terran is having issues doing any inhibiting damage early-mid game with the recent queen range buff. That said, I also feel like Terrans are kind of in the same situation that a lot of Protoss were in a few months ago when the 11:30 200/200 roach bomb came into play, in that they are so comfortable with an antiquated and figured out playstyle that they're all having issues transitioning out of it.
I'm a master Z player, and it's fucking retarded how Terrans will still get 6-8 hellions out and think they're going to do any damage to the surplus of creep-spreading queens and good wall-ins that Zergs have started using. Reactored hellions have been an opening since GSL season 2, and it's feel and timings have been fleshed out and widely documented. We're sort of in the same situation that Zergs were in when mutaling/bling was being figured out and completely dissected. Time to start doing things a bit different, IMO.
All this said though, the queen range does need to be looked at. I don't know what kind of players you're playing, but nobody that's not god-awful opens reactor hellions anymore. The only opener that involves hellions that you will see these days is 1rax fe into reactor hellion banshee, or 1raxfe/15cc into fast third with 4 hellions so that you can hope to scout an incoming allin. TvZ is a complete joke these days, and most top terrans are just coinflipping (15cc into 3rd off 1/2rax for example), or praying that zerg gets supply blocked for half an hour and floats 2k/1k. Ravens seem like they have potential, but it takes 10 minutes to get a useful amount of them. It's funny that I don't seem to be the only one that has a 30% winrate TvP and TvZ, yet I almost never lose TvT. I'm not sure what that actually means, but it's rather interesting. Yeah, you're right; I worded that poorly. You guys open a variant of early CC these days, but people are still really inclined to dump all their shit into hellions in some form or fashion immediately after
Everything else does even less damage and does even less to barely control creep spread.
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On June 18 2012 08:37 Denzil wrote:
Sounds like for the first time since Starcraft 2's inception Terrans aren't steamrolling everyone.
God forbid you need to change the way you play like Protoss had to and Zerg has had to.
Time to change.
The first sentence isn't even correct on the foreigner scene.
You actually mean....the MVP and MMA's of the world aren't rolling Zergs anymore -- and keep in mind, this is talking about TvZ.
Other than Thorzain and maybe Kas or Select, there aren't many other foreign Terrans who have actually won playing management games against other notable Zerg players. Maps have changed drastically as well. Funny thing is, TvZ has been the worst matchup of almost every notable foreign Terran even with the shitty small maps of a year ago. I don't ever remember Thorzain, Kas, Lucifron, Sjow, Select, etc. having good, or at the very least, notable TvZ. The 'upsets' that those guys have scored over Koreans over the past two years have predominantly come against other Terrans and Protosses (bad Korean Protosses were a dime a dozen back then).
The asymmetrical balance that Blizzard so idiotically tries to enforce no longer really exists on maps like Daybreak.
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For around a year all terran had to ever make was marines and medivacs and the occasional tank if it got that far in TvZ, don't you enjoy the idea of exploring the tech options you have available in the starport? I have heard ravens and sky terran late game with ghosts is pretty effective... Just saying. If people can't beat zergs because they can't play well enough to beat zergs, that just means that this game might not be shit after all and higher levels of play might be required to actually be good. Wouldn't it feel good if you won games because you knew 100% that you outplayed your opponent?
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On June 18 2012 08:52 aike wrote:
I like how this balance whine is in the "featured blogs"
Yeah, the material in it is not fit for featured blogs, and even worse, it's a balance whine in featured blogs ;/
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On June 18 2012 08:37 Denzil wrote:
Sounds like for the first time since Starcraft 2's inception Terrans aren't steamrolling everyone.
God forbid you need to change the way you play like Protoss had to and Zerg has had to.
Time to change.
These types of comments I keep seeing are just idiotic comments. So just because of past imbalances, the game has to be balanced so that the other races now "OP"? The point of balance patches is to make every match-up balanced in the present regardless of the past.
And do you think Terrans never had to change up their style even when they were "OP"?
Also Protosses and Zergs had tons of help to the insane amount of Terran nerfs and map pool changes. Changing up their style would have never worked on a consistent basis when 1/1/1 and proxy 2 raxes into SCV rushes were the norm. Terrans would have found a different timing to abuse.
I don't even play Terran (Protoss for that matter) and mostly watch pro games. The fact of the matter is the queen change unnecessarily ruined a match-up which was for the most part fun to watch and balanced (overlord change was fine on its own, though). I don't really care if it would be balanced in say 2 months when Terrans have found a way to deal with it, I just think that it's a legitimate concern when Blizzard patches unnecessarily and the fix is counter-intuitive. It means as a viewer, I'll have to deal with 2 months of Terrans losing or really weird/bad TvZs (which were prior to this very good).
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On June 18 2012 09:29 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 08:52 aike wrote:
I like how this balance whine is in the "featured blogs" Yeah, the material in it is not fit for featured blogs, and even worse, it's a balance whine in featured blogs ;/
It's my opinion which is why I post as a blog and not in general. Everything I say is subjective and just my personal opinion. Anyone is free to agree or disagree with it. If people see this purely as balance whining I don't really know what to say, they are issues I think are serious problems for the competitiveness of the game if people aren't allowed to talk about it then I'm not sure where we're headed in the future of this game.
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Zerg needed help scouting. The OL patch, by itself, I think would have been a lot, if not too much. A speed buff that wasn't this fast may have been more optimal. Anyways...
...the queen range seems to be the real problem. You know something's broken when you are seeing 6,7 and 8 queens off of 3 bases sometimes. Why not? They are fast on creep, and when combined with lings can make a dangerous army. I started thinking it was broken when I started noticing it a lot in ZvZ. I don't know how many times now I've gone into my opponents natural with my roaches, ready for the roach war, and found their roaches backed up by 6 or 7 queens, with a gorgeous range and Xfusing the hell out of the roaches.
And why not? A zerg would be silly not to make a ton of these units now. You see huge packs of queens fighting off 4 gate pushes and marine pressure. It's too much. The unit has gone passed the balance point- it serves too many purposes and makes the game too hard to play. I am a Zerg, and I want to see Zergs like Idra and Ret and Stephano do better (yes even BETTER) but not like this... nothing maters when the race is just broken.
Something needs to be scaled back. And, I will restate once again, what I have said from the beginning in regards to Blizzard patching. FIX ONE THING. PER PATCH. ONE. That way it is easy to qantify what changed and what effects it had. With a buff to OL and to Queen, we get to debate endlessly about what the problem really is. Also, don't be affraid to revert changes. IMHO, keep OL speed and revert queen range immediately.
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Does anyone think that blizzard will actually take back the queen and overlord buff though? What can they do at this point?
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I think the results from Korean leagues speak for themselves. God of terran MVP:
Lately, there is talk of Zerg being OP.
There’s a reason I aimed only for third place. Lately, my win rate for TvZ and TvP are only at 30% or so. The only reason a Zerg or Protoss loses in a broadcasted match is because they don’t play their best. Unless those races make a mistake, it’s really hard for Terran to win. Until we come up with something new, it’ll continue to be hard for Terrans.
Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg.
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I agreed with you up to the TvP comment. Wasn't that historically the most balanced mu? I know it was hard to play at the lower levels but I certainly don't think it was anywhere near what TvZ is now
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On June 18 2012 08:13 FinestHour wrote:
[...] the sad fact is that 5-6 queens and 2 spines beat every single kind of attack before ten minutes. No competent zerg loses to any kind of timing attack these days and if you don't succeed in killing a fair amount of drones you might as well just leave.
5-6 queens and 2 spines? are you suggesting that the zerg investing 1100 minerals into purely defensive units should be insufficient to hold an all-in? if you made 7 bunkers and took a fast 3rd, would you be upset to lose to an all-in? probably.
ghost nerf was absolutely necessary. The idea that you could mass just ghosts and completely counter every zerg unit was horrible.
I can't find it now but someone else said that terran 'can't afford to be building ghosts because all they do is counter infestors' which is insane, because if you get rid of the infestors, you can kill any zerg composition with marine tank, including broods.
not that you ever as terran need to actually engage broods. for all you complaining about how the big maps favour zerg, think about trying to get your infestor brood force across one of them. NIGHTMARE. terran can drop 2 of your bases, while just walking his army around yours and countering.
if i were giving advice i would say
+ Show Spoiler +fast 3rd base strats are the way to go. maybe it's just me, but i feel like every zvt i play i think at some point 'wow, i really hope he hasn't taken a 3rd yet because i'd have no way to pressure it with these lings, i'm just starting infestors and i can't really be aggressive until i have ultras'
but i hear that that is stupid, so i won't say that.
personally, i win most of my zvt, but i won most of the macro zvts i played before, i just died to hellion runbys more back then. I suck at zvp, so i think my MMR is dropped by my zvp to the point where i'm facing weaker terrans than i should.
I find that zvp feels to me the OP says tvz feels to him. No chance to pressure, no all-in for them to be scared of, forced to just try to be greedy and hope that i can predict and counter any all-in without sacrificing my chance to get to broods, which are just as clumsy and slow in zvp as they are in zvt.
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I play terran aswell, but mvp also said that terran was the weakest race back when gsl was like 70-80% terrans. They do need to revert the zerg buffs pointless buffs that screwed the game up horribly
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A few random thoughts:
- Mid-game hellion harass, drops and runbys. This was popular for a short window then completely fell out of favor after a small nerf. They're still undeniably deadly. Imagine today's terrans' multi-tasking with marine drops applied to constant hellion pressure instead.
- Thors, in general. 3/3 thors are extremely effective against both ultralisks and brood lords, even now you see good terrans making them instead of tanks in the late-game, but with bad upgrades. Don't forget about repair.
- Viking harass on overlords. Mutalisk play isn't as popular anymore. It takes 4 vikings two shots to kill an overlord. Deny their scouting, screw with their rallies, force the queens to defend them while you clean up creep. Scout.
- Ravens. Auto-turret: why not use these like forcefields? They form a solid wall, with upgrades they can easily absorb the 'shock' of ling-ultra engaging a tank line (tried this in-game and it works amazingly well, if you get the engi bay upgrades. it's like a mobile wall of depots). Seeker Missile: this one is iffy, but it's gaining ground and more terrans are using it to counter corruptors. Detection: creep spread is arguably the #1 problem for terrans right now, save scans and use banshees or hellions to clean it up and the zerg has a hell of a time replacing it. This makes lings dramatically weaker.
- BCs. They die fast to corruptors, but combined with thor splash and seeker missiles, I don't know. How would a zerg respond to max-upgrades thor-raven-battlecruiser? Just something to try.
Marine-tank-medivac is obviously dying, so naturally terrans will want a patch to make it good again. They've put thousands of hours of practice into these units, and changing styles is basically like changing races. But I think that before Blizzard jumps into action and band-aids the metagame, they should leave a long enough period for us to determine if a patch is really necessary.
Imagine how different Starcraft would be if Blizzard had just patched PvZ before Bisu came along.
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It must be weird, knowing that zergs can actually scout now, instead of attempting to and getting a free 100 mins off your zerg opponent.
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EPT
