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On July 13 2012 04:36 VPVanek wrote:Show nested quote +On July 11 2012 07:42 Integra wrote:On July 11 2012 07:26 Aelonius wrote:I find it hilarious that the Terrans are currently complaining while not too long ago they were on top of everyone. Protoss had this issue too, guess what happened aside a few smaller buffs? They figured out a way to deal with things. Maybe it's time for you to learn to adapt too  Terran doesn't seem to be able to win anything atm, regardless if they play against zerg or not, just take todays TSL qualifer, there were 8 Terrans left during the RO of 32 with 8 Zergs and the rest protoss. only two of those games were Terran vs Zerg and yet only 1 Terran made it through only to lose 2-0 against another protoss. Seriously, Terran players are fucking horrible atm, that's all there is to it. Honestly, I don't understand how its fair that a terran player has to micro like a mad man, multi drop etc etc just to MAYBE beat a zerg. Please tell me how that is fair? You zerg players literally fucking sit there all game, then push out whenever the fuck you want and win.
Dude.
You're so right I think I love you.
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Terrans QQ after every patch but then a few months later they are winning everything again.
Learn new strats or change race. Easy.
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On July 16 2012 00:27 IceBurg wrote:
Terrans QQ after every patch but then a few months later they are winning everything again.
Learn new strats or change race. Easy.
It's already "a few months later". We're not winning anything.
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No. Zerg players are just better and probably more handsome than the Terrans. The patch only exposed the Terrans who sick, which is every one of them
Zerg4lyfe
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On July 16 2012 19:09 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On July 16 2012 18:06 yeint wrote:On July 16 2012 00:27 IceBurg wrote:
Terrans QQ after every patch but then a few months later they are winning everything again.
Learn new strats or change race. Easy. It's already "a few months later". We're not winning anything. Just to give that statement some substance, and also a different perspective. I took a ton of recent tournaments, major and minor from liquipedia that had race distribution in latter rounds. I want you to look at it from my point of view as a casual terran that enjoys watching terrans play. Recently, I've had very little to spectate anywhere. + Show Spoiler +
Just to show that the statement isn't true at all.
Four of the last five TSL qualifiers were won by Terrans. That was from 2012/7/4 to 2012/7/12, including both of the last two Korean qualifiers (Korean = typically the highest level of play). These are open tournaments, not invites with potential skewed racial distributions based on past success or something like the NASL where all but one terran went out when terran was at its lowest point.
These results are about as current as it gets.
TSL Qualifier #8 (BeastyQT wins)
TSL Qualifier KR #4 (Taeja wins)
TSL Qualifier #10 (Major wins)
TSL Qualifier KR #5 (Keen wins)
I'm starting to believe in what I'll call the "Four Month Theory of Balance". The theory goes like this:
Month One post patch: The players of the buffed race learn how to really take advantage of the patch at the top levels and change the meta-game by the end of the first month.
Month Two post patch: The top level information filters down to lower levels (lower level pros and semi-pros). The top level players of the other races slowly learn how to deal with the new meta-game by the end of the month, but will struggle mightily in the meantime.
Month Three post patch: The top level players have it figured out pretty well and the information slowly filters down to the lower levels (lower level pros and semi-pros).
Month Four post patch: Everything has normalized and we can really tell balance by looking at stats for the 4th month.
The queen buff happened on May 10th. Imbalance crying really started to hit its peak a little after June 10th (this blog was started on June 18th by a semi-pro who was probably starting to play against the newly filtered down meta-game). It is currently July 16th. Based on the theory, the top level terrans should be figuring out TvZ again (note the TSL results above or Byun vs Nestea in the GSL). It won't be until early August when the lower level pros and semi-pro players have seen enough successful TvZ at the top levels to copy and then practice. If the theory holds, the data from early August until early September should show the true balance stats.
So what I'm saying is that it'd be really nice for Blizzard and the community to slow down and see what happens with balance. If you're looking at ladder data or a broad swathe of tournament data that includes semi-pros, then you'll need to be patient (wait till you have data for the 4th month) before you start analyzing data about balance.
Of course, the larger the change, the longer it will take for the meta-game to fully shift for the buffed race and also the longer it will take for the reactionary meta-game shift for the other races. The queen buff + overlord buff seems to be about one-month per shift and is the impetus for this theory. Honestly, I voiced my concern over the queen buff (while cheering the overlord buff) before it was made. As a random race player, I didn't see it as being necessary. I would have much rather seen how much the overlord buff would have changed the game on its own (a smaller buff that would require less time to accurately determine its effects). And if they were going to change something as dramatic as a unit's range (a hugely important stat), I'd prefer to see them try out 4 range first (and buff it up to 5 after four more months if the stats were still showing Z undepowered), rather than jump from 3 to 5.
However, I think there's reason to believe that the end result of a queen with range 5 will be a more balanced and more enjoyable game. The highest level Terrans are starting to explore and understand their late-game options better rather than relying purely on having an advantage going into the lategame. This new understanding is creating better late-game battles where Terran isn't just auto-losing in 200 vs 200 battles anymore. Early-mid game pressures and all-ins are still viable and being used, but now it's a variety of them rather than reactor-hellion all the time every time which is giving the early game more variety. And as for balance, we're starting to see Terrans make a comeback at the highest levels. I have a feeling that pretty soon those results will filter down to all levels.
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I have to agree - tvz right now is just beyond slightly imbalanced..at every stage of the game I feel like I am behind, at the moment I think proxy 2 rax is probably the best win % build, which is pretty sad, but its understandable why players like Select do it basically every game. Macro games are not actually a good idea even if you have far better mechanics than the zerg.
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Ghan those results are absolutely stupid to try and justify. You are going by regional WCS which isn't something I would go basing all my stats on.
Look at GSL recently, terrans are starting to win vs zerg again a lot more then they were a week or 2 ago (in both GSTL and GSL). Homestory cup had no top tier terrans in them, the only one was MVP who played awful that weekend which everyone agrees with. Happy is supposed to be good but don't believe he's ever had any good big tournament results. When the terrans for HSCV were only mid tier foreigners and MVP hard to try to use that to "justify Terran UP".
Also just a fun fact, even when terran was considered OP/OP foreign terrans were still on the low end. but at the top end (which is koreans) terrans were dominating everything. Just thought I would throw that out there.
In short think terrans are fine especially with terrans starting to win again (at top level obviously).
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By this "things are fine in GSL" logic, Zerg was not underpowered in 2010 because the first two GSL winners were Zerg.
The idea that the game is fine if 3-4 of the very best Terrans in the world remain competitive is horse manure.
There was nothing wrong with the matchup before the patch. It was balanced, and entertaining to watch.
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I'm not good enough to see real imbalance, im hovering somewhere between diamond and masters. Zergs where I am are still going ling bling muta so tanks work just fine.
The problem I have with the patch is that terran is the worst lategame because we can't remax instantly on any combination of units we want to unless we spend money on 20 factories and 20 starports, which we cannot do, and because terran has gotten nerfed every patch since release. By making the games go later, as blizzard did with the queen buff, they are hurting terran. They have said that terran has to do damage to stay even lategame. Now that that is impossible, we are forced into the lategame. Terran can manage lategame because we can theoretically have the largest army with lots of macro OCs, but getting to that stage is risky.
Also, the builds I have been using over the past year all became obsolete after the patch, which sucks.
Terrans have started to use ravens, but ravens are terrible units. Seeker missiles are essentially banelings, and if zerg splits their army, it takes 2 seeker missiles to kill 1 broodlord, or at least 1 seeker missile to kill one unit. All the amazing raven hits we have seen so far are when the zerg a moves a 200 army of broodlord corruptor all in the same square inch of space against a bunch of ravens, and as cool as that is, its not good play, its akin to moving a marine medivac ball into a ling bling army with no micro.
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TvZ is such a joke right now. I find myself losing to zergs I KNOW I would've destroyed pre-patch. They play insanely greedy and can get away with it because of how well early queens and creep spread cost-efficiently deny any harass and early timing attack. Then they're absolutely terrible at defending my multi-drop harass, but it only works a few times before they just mass spore everywhere, which they can cuz they have a 85+ drones. And then broodlord infestor gg.
Oh, and if I actually manage to crush them with a 10min timing attack? I get called an all-inning noob.
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On July 17 2012 14:19 blade55555 wrote:
Ghan those results are absolutely stupid to try and justify. You are going by regional WCS which isn't something I would go basing all my stats on.
Look at GSL recently, terrans are starting to win vs zerg again a lot more then they were a week or 2 ago (in both GSTL and GSL). Homestory cup had no top tier terrans in them, the only one was MVP who played awful that weekend which everyone agrees with. Happy is supposed to be good but don't believe he's ever had any good big tournament results. When the terrans for HSCV were only mid tier foreigners and MVP hard to try to use that to "justify Terran UP".
Also just a fun fact, even when terran was considered OP/OP foreign terrans were still on the low end. but at the top end (which is koreans) terrans were dominating everything. Just thought I would throw that out there.
In short think terrans are fine especially with terrans starting to win again (at top level obviously).
This. Basing your data on regional WCS is like basing your data on Iccup A- level. Regional WCG doesn't have the best players, unfortunately. You have to balance at the very top, because then, skill level dictates the balance. As long as you improve your skill, the more balanced the game becomes. This means we need to look at Korean GSL level play.
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On July 17 2012 22:12 GhostOwl wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 14:19 blade55555 wrote:
Ghan those results are absolutely stupid to try and justify. You are going by regional WCS which isn't something I would go basing all my stats on.
Look at GSL recently, terrans are starting to win vs zerg again a lot more then they were a week or 2 ago (in both GSTL and GSL). Homestory cup had no top tier terrans in them, the only one was MVP who played awful that weekend which everyone agrees with. Happy is supposed to be good but don't believe he's ever had any good big tournament results. When the terrans for HSCV were only mid tier foreigners and MVP hard to try to use that to "justify Terran UP".
Also just a fun fact, even when terran was considered OP/OP foreign terrans were still on the low end. but at the top end (which is koreans) terrans were dominating everything. Just thought I would throw that out there.
In short think terrans are fine especially with terrans starting to win again (at top level obviously). This. Basing your data on regional WCS is like basing your data on Iccup A- level. Regional WCG doesn't have the best players, unfortunately. You have to balance at the very top, because then, skill level dictates the balance. As long as you improve your skill, the more balanced the game becomes. This means we need to look at Korean GSL level play.
GSL is actually not that great of a representative of balance because it is so reliant on mindgames and build-order picking, so it doesn't really give us an objective view. The GSTL in that respect would be a better indicator of balance, and terrans if I remember correctly (I don't watch it) aren't doing well at all.
As an aside, it's been known for a while that Terran is the hardest race mechanically and that's why there are so few "up and coming" terran players in the foreign scene relative to zerg and protoss players (Cytoplasm, Harstem, Ziktomini, Jonnyrecco, roof, etc...). The results in foreign tournaments also reflect this fact (1 terran in European WCS, 0 terrans in top8 of several tournaments).
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On July 17 2012 23:45 eourcs wrote:Show nested quote +On July 17 2012 22:12 GhostOwl wrote:On July 17 2012 14:19 blade55555 wrote:
Ghan those results are absolutely stupid to try and justify. You are going by regional WCS which isn't something I would go basing all my stats on.
Look at GSL recently, terrans are starting to win vs zerg again a lot more then they were a week or 2 ago (in both GSTL and GSL). Homestory cup had no top tier terrans in them, the only one was MVP who played awful that weekend which everyone agrees with. Happy is supposed to be good but don't believe he's ever had any good big tournament results. When the terrans for HSCV were only mid tier foreigners and MVP hard to try to use that to "justify Terran UP".
Also just a fun fact, even when terran was considered OP/OP foreign terrans were still on the low end. but at the top end (which is koreans) terrans were dominating everything. Just thought I would throw that out there.
In short think terrans are fine especially with terrans starting to win again (at top level obviously). This. Basing your data on regional WCS is like basing your data on Iccup A- level. Regional WCG doesn't have the best players, unfortunately. You have to balance at the very top, because then, skill level dictates the balance. As long as you improve your skill, the more balanced the game becomes. This means we need to look at Korean GSL level play. GSL is actually not that great of a representative of balance because it is so reliant on mindgames and build-order picking, so it doesn't really give us an objective view. The GSTL in that respect would be a better indicator of balance, and terrans if I remember correctly (I don't watch it) aren't doing well at all. As an aside, it's been known for a while that Terran is the hardest race mechanically and that's why there are so few "up and coming" terran players in the foreign scene relative to zerg and protoss players (Cytoplasm, Harstem, Ziktomini, Jonnyrecco, roof, etc...). The results in foreign tournaments also reflect this fact (1 terran in European WCS, 0 terrans in top8 of several tournaments).
This. Terran can still win with good preparation (you know what your opponent's style is, what strategies he picks for maps, etc), but in tournament formats like MLG, IEM, or IPL, its much harder to predict what your opponent will do, even if you have a rapport with them.
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The only real problem I have with the current state of TvZ is the effort that I have to put in to secure a victory and that I CAN'T play to get an advantage and ride it out for a win.
If I multitask like a boss and wear my opponent down while macroing well, I win. If I do a strong timing that my opponent doesn't scout (or react properly to) I win. If I don't do one of these two things, I lose. There are no comebacks, the moment that Zergs start making army and I do not have one of at least equal size on hand, I lose.
I played some Zerg on the ladder last night against some of the same opponent's I've been facing (this is high diamond/low masters level) and with next to zero mental focus and minimal effort I DESTROYED them all by playing Zerg. I've been maining Terran since February, doing very little offracing...
I just wish effort was rewarded equally, but I know that I CAN win with Terran if I outplay my opponent, which gives me a strong incentive to be a much better player.
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On July 18 2012 02:33 CapnAmerica wrote:
The only real problem I have with the current state of TvZ is the effort that I have to put in to secure a victory and that I CAN'T play to get an advantage and ride it out for a win.
If I multitask like a boss and wear my opponent down while macroing well, I win. If I do a strong timing that my opponent doesn't scout (or react properly to) I win. If I don't do one of these two things, I lose. There are no comebacks, the moment that Zergs start making army and I do not have one of at least equal size on hand, I lose.
I played some Zerg on the ladder last night against some of the same opponent's I've been facing (this is high diamond/low masters level) and with next to zero mental focus and minimal effort I DESTROYED them all by playing Zerg. I've been maining Terran since February, doing very little offracing...
I just wish effort was rewarded equally, but I know that I CAN win with Terran if I outplay my opponent, which gives me a strong incentive to be a much better player.
oh please, even pro gamers have lost to easy to execute builds. why should you be rewarded because you think you're a better player yet you still can't beat them.. sounds like you're a worse player than they are to me.
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Seems like a fair percentage of the beta Terran cheesers are now rolling Zerg and doing ling/bane/roach all ins.
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On July 18 2012 05:33 Endymion wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On July 18 2012 02:33 CapnAmerica wrote:
The only real problem I have with the current state of TvZ is the effort that I have to put in to secure a victory and that I CAN'T play to get an advantage and ride it out for a win.
If I multitask like a boss and wear my opponent down while macroing well, I win. If I do a strong timing that my opponent doesn't scout (or react properly to) I win. If I don't do one of these two things, I lose. There are no comebacks, the moment that Zergs start making army and I do not have one of at least equal size on hand, I lose.
I played some Zerg on the ladder last night against some of the same opponent's I've been facing (this is high diamond/low masters level) and with next to zero mental focus and minimal effort I DESTROYED them all by playing Zerg. I've been maining Terran since February, doing very little offracing...
I just wish effort was rewarded equally, but I know that I CAN win with Terran if I outplay my opponent, which gives me a strong incentive to be a much better player. oh please, even pro gamers have lost to easy to execute builds. why should you be rewarded because you think you're a better player yet you still can't beat them.. sounds like you're a worse player than they are to me.
I'm well aware that not all builds require an equal amount of work to be successful, my issue is only that Zerg is way, way easier to play regardless of the strategy that I choose (unless I do something silly, like 6 pool). The micro and macro requirements for Zerg are much lower at my level of play. And, by the way, I don't want to be rewarded... I want to get better. I can feel the difference between the races, though.
I don't think that it's fair, per se, that Terran lacks an easy to execute, comparable strategy in the early game compared to Zerg. 1 Barracks FE doesn't hold up unless you're doing a timed out bunker rush on a potential third, macroing perfectly, and scouting for all baneling builds at a time when all scouting can be denied by queens. That's way harder than making 4 queens, getting ling speed and a 3rd, and then going whatever tech route you like while droning hard.
And all the aggression that I can perform outside of a single timing push which is scoutable and counterable with ease thanks to faster overlords and the building-restricted nature of Terran, can be nullified by a second of inattention, as opposed to Zerg harassment, which involves move clicking and a-moving. I love playing both races, but Zerg just FEELS way stronger for the required amount of effort. That's all. If you think I'm worse than the players that I'm beating with both races, then that's your right, but I honestly feel this difference. Back to getting easy wins as Z on ladder. 
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This game is kind of a joke right now, just wait till HOTS.
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My own experience is that right now any average zerg who was low GM or master league can be as good as a progamer. Because it doesn't take really any skill to build up drones and spread creep on all the map in 12 game minutes with mass queens. I really feel I have to be insanely better than my opponents to win and all this leaves is just a huge amount of frustration. Also I can't help but feel it's sad that horrible players like Jonnyrecco who were shit before patch suddenly became good and when I play any zerg on the ladder I know it's going to be super hard no matter who it is, be it Dimaga or any 50% win ratio zerg in master league. Things are REALLY fucked up at the moment.
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