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On June 24 2012 06:02 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 04:48 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 24 2012 04:35 beetlelisk wrote:On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote:
The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide. There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army. You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage. What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units. Amount of people that whined about infestors earlier in this thread either doesn't make tanks or finds them to be not enough. I don't think terrans send out units to spot for siege tanks to fully utilize their range and good zergs don't send infestors alone, so most often other zerg units take siege tank shots at about 3/4 of siege tank range. How often siege tanks are manually ordered to shot infestors before they fungal? It also takes 2 siege tank shots to kill an infestor and terran also spends gas on medivacs while zerg can decide if to spend additional gas on banes to support ling infestor, which means there is more gas spent on infestors than tanks in a game, especially counting in bigger number of bases zerg usually has over terran. What would zerg need overseers for? There are no ghosts so what, late game cloaked banshees? Dropping changelings on tanks? There is also a possibility, maybe low but still, of sniping them with vikings that are needed any way to deal with brood lords. Casting fungal on cloaked ghosts requires really good awareness of surroundings of zerg army and that's not easy with so many other tasks to do. It's effect can also be minimized by spreading ghosts and choosing terrain that allows for that. Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 04:58 boomudead1 wrote:On June 23 2012 17:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote:
oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is. Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end. there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs. Do you know by any chance in which vod exactly is the game? There is almost 6 hours of content from June 22nd. Oh and his full nickname is LGIMMvp?
its on ohana where mvp is spawns topleft. vs zerg. im sure he saved it cuz i saw. yeah LGIMMvp. just check it out. the one that he went for the 3oc build and didnt get punish for. only 2 pack of lings atackign the third. no roaches at all i believe
if u cant find it might as well just check out other vZ games he played. the problem is still there. zerg eco is too strong even if he goes 3oc build. but the game above is when zerg lost 10 or so infester for no reason. still didnt matter
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On June 24 2012 08:31 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 08:09 DerBos wrote:
Why is there a detailed discussion at all if TvZ is broken atm? If e.g. DeMuslim can beat ForGG (Terran) as Zerg even though he played Zerg only a couple of times, it obviously is broken! This is a very conservative test for imbalance, right? You take top players, have them play off-race and see if they can win against other top-players on their race! And if that can happen at all, the game is so imbalanced it´s not even funny!
Another point I wanted to make is the following: If Blizzard decided today to revert, let´s say, the last 10 patches, would then all the Zergs and Toss who would obviously start complaining the shit out of the forums, would they also be considered balance whiners and QQers? What I want to tell you guys is that people whose only response to reasonable argumentation about balance is to blurt out "BALANCE WHINER! STOP THE QQ!!" are bullies! They´re in a superior position and, for the lack of character and moral, aim to put down good argumentation in order to stay on top!
Along these lines: just recently Avilo (Terran) was denied to participate in a "state of the game" where NO TERRAN WAS PRESENT! If not him, they could and should have invited some other Terran - how can you discuss about the state of the game when not all three races are represented? Avilo is known for whining even when terran was favoured in the MU, I guess that's why he wasn't invited. There should be a terran representative though in SotG.
I know. But consider the following: Part of the reason why he could not get in, might have been that if they heard him argue reasonably now, people watching may realize something like: "Wait, this is that infamous terran whiner? Actually, he´s making some good points!". That would have made the Toss-Zerg-gentlemen-club look a bit silly all of a sudden, right?
You know what happened instead? In control dared Avilo to get on the ladder and confront him!! What !? It´s like: "Shut up or I´ll beat you up!" Now that´s what I call bullying!
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That's hilarious that Avilo was denied to be a part of SotG. Why the fuck did they not invite Demuslim or Illusion or KawaiiRice
or some other distinguished pro?
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On June 24 2012 06:02 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 04:48 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 24 2012 04:35 beetlelisk wrote:On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote:
The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide. There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army. You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage. What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units. Amount of people that whined about infestors earlier in this thread either doesn't make tanks or finds them to be not enough. I don't think terrans send out units to spot for siege tanks to fully utilize their range and good zergs don't send infestors alone, so most often other zerg units take siege tank shots at about 3/4 of siege tank range. How often siege tanks are manually ordered to shot infestors before they fungal? It also takes 2 siege tank shots to kill an infestor and terran also spends gas on medivacs while zerg can decide if to spend additional gas on banes to support ling infestor, which means there is more gas spent on infestors than tanks in a game, especially counting in bigger number of bases zerg usually has over terran. What would zerg need overseers for? There are no ghosts so what, late game cloaked banshees? Dropping changelings on tanks? There is also a possibility, maybe low but still, of sniping them with vikings that are needed any way to deal with brood lords. Casting fungal on cloaked ghosts requires really good awareness of surroundings of zerg army and that's not easy with so many other tasks to do. It's effect can also be minimized by spreading ghosts and choosing terrain that allows for that. Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 04:58 boomudead1 wrote:On June 23 2012 17:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote:
oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is. Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end. there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs. Do you know by any chance in which vod exactly is the game? There is almost 6 hours of content from June 22nd. Oh and his full nickname is LGIMMvp?
A good zerg will always have at least 1 Overseer in their army. The costs are negligible to the Zerg bank and it's literally just in case anyone is investing in ghosts.
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On June 24 2012 13:37 BigFan wrote:From that thread: "Zerg players are just more talented. More talented people tend to play Zerg and it shows. If many of these players went into another profession they would likely be doctors or lawyers." LOL love how he links Zerg players to being doctors and lawyers, but what about scientists? T_T  The statistics are definitely interesting though 
Pretty sure that's sarcasm.
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TLADT24920 Posts
On June 24 2012 13:49 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 13:37 BigFan wrote:From that thread: "Zerg players are just more talented. More talented people tend to play Zerg and it shows. If many of these players went into another profession they would likely be doctors or lawyers." LOL love how he links Zerg players to being doctors and lawyers, but what about scientists? T_T The statistics are definitely interesting though Pretty sure that's sarcasm.
Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Either way, gave me a good laugh
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On June 24 2012 13:49 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 13:37 BigFan wrote:From that thread: "Zerg players are just more talented. More talented people tend to play Zerg and it shows. If many of these players went into another profession they would likely be doctors or lawyers." LOL love how he links Zerg players to being doctors and lawyers, but what about scientists? T_T The statistics are definitely interesting though Pretty sure that's sarcasm.
I think he's using a line that some terrans have thrown around since the beginning of SC2 (replace Zerg with Terran) when terran was winning almost all the major championships, but they still wanted to whine about how underpowered Terran was.
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The stats of approximately 30% TvZ in GSL (from the Bnet thread) aren't terribly surprising. For quite a few months, Terrans have been relying on a metagame that has been nerfed. It will take some time before Terran adapts to the new metagame and that transitional period will be painful. In truth, that almost abandoned metagame is not even completely gone, but it has become harder to pull off. If you check the BeastyQT vs Morrow series in NASL playoffs, you can still watch Terrans having success with Hellions vs Zerg in the early game.
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I actually enjoy Avilo's stream since he plays some different and powerful lategame styles (ravens/ghosts included), but he has a long history of being a whiner. He isn't right at all for SotG. I believe QXC was in Sweden at the time, but they've stated that they would have invited him on had he been available. He's been a very high level terran and also seems to be a very reasonable person who doesn't needlessly whine. More often than not, he's asking questions or providing solutions, not whining about how unfair everything is. You certainly can't say that about Avilo. Demuslim would be a decent choice, but there were already two EG players and one EG caster on that episode and the possibility that he simply wasn't available. I have no idea about the availability of Kawaii (who can be whiney too, just not as bad as Avilo) or Illusion. Potentially also Thorzain, but I think he was traveling the world at the time.
For whatever reason, there have been very few high level foreign terrans who also posess the ability to eloquently speak about issues and provide good insight. Even Inside the Game has relied upon PainUser, who is barely a pro player, as their Terran representative. It wouldn't suprise me if JP tries to get QXC to become a full-time member of the show since he can now dedicate more of his time to SC2.
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On June 24 2012 13:49 Chaggi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 13:37 BigFan wrote:From that thread: "Zerg players are just more talented. More talented people tend to play Zerg and it shows. If many of these players went into another profession they would likely be doctors or lawyers." LOL love how he links Zerg players to being doctors and lawyers, but what about scientists? T_T The statistics are definitely interesting though Pretty sure that's sarcasm.
Agreed. At least half the people contributing to that thread, however, certainly aren´t (becoming) doctors, lawyers or scientists by the the looks of the illogical bs they post.
At the risk of repeating myself, there is an objective way of detecting imbalance and it´s already been done! Top players can off-race and play top-players of their own race, like DeMuslim did vs. ForGG the other day (and won). The fact that DeMuslim won (even if it´s only once) the game is imbalanced by a solid amount because this CAN NOT HAPPEN in a balanced situation, full stop! It makes all arguments like "hellions are still super strong" or "terran still has the most awesome tier 1 units" totally futile! Agreed? If not, I would be psyched to hear arguments!
Practically all arguments in balance discussions so far are useless because they have no experimental bases, and often, they are ad-hoc hypotheses! E.g. "Zerg players are more talented and that is in fact the reason for them winning more often, now that the game is balanced".
Let´s look at this with an analogy:
Imagine a car race where car A is under the unproven suspicion of having 50% more engine power than car B (and let´s say that couldn´t be easily mechanically tested). Car A constantly wins more often. Driver of car B complains that car A is overpowered but driver of car A says "Oh, I´m just more talented than you are because I win more often even though YOUR car is actually overpowered. Stop the whining and l2d!". But arguing about that leads to nothing, of course, because there is no data available other than the current results which could arise from BOTH scenarios (driver A more talented vs. car A overpowered). But then drivers swap cars and now the win/loss statistic inverts. Oops! That would obviously kill driver A´s argument and SHOW that car A is in fact overpowered! No excuses possible! And I am saying that this, in similar form, HAS ALREADY HAPPENED with the game of DeMuslim vs. ForGG!
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On June 24 2012 15:25 DerBos wrote:
At the risk of repeating myself, there is an objective way of detecting imbalance and it´s already been done! Top players can off-race and play top-players of their own race, like DeMuslim did vs. ForGG the other day (and won). The fact that DeMuslim won (even if it´s only once) the game is imbalanced by a solid amount because this CAN NOT HAPPEN in a balanced situation, full stop! It makes all arguments like "hellions are still super strong" or "terran still has the most awesome tier 1 units" totally futile! Agreed? If not, I would be psyched to hear arguments!
I bolded the important part. Your entire argument thus far is based on a hilariously small sample size. Don't talk about experimental bases when you're basing everything you say on one game. It might be a fun experiment. This, instead, is called cognitive bias, and I'm sure you would have justified ("objectively") any outcome for the DeMuslim/ForGG game to defend your stance that TvZ is totally "broken atm".
On June 24 2012 15:25 DerBos wrote:
Imagine a car race where car A is under the unproven suspicion of having 50% more engine power than car B (and let´s say that couldn´t be easily mechanically tested). Car A constantly wins more often. Driver of car B complains that car A is overpowered but driver of car A says "Oh, I´m just more talented than you are because I win more often even though YOUR car is actually overpowered. Stop the whining and l2d!". But arguing about that leads to nothing, of course, because there is no data available other than the current results which could arise from BOTH scenarios (driver A more talented vs. car A overpowered). But then drivers swap cars and now the win/loss statistic inverts. Oops! That would obviously kill driver A´s argument and SHOW that car A is in fact overpowered! No excuses possible! And I am saying that this, in similar form, HAS ALREADY HAPPENED with the game of DeMuslim vs. ForGG!
This "Zerg players are just more talented" is a throwback to when ZvT (ZvX, even) was a silly joke, but some players (including at least one high profile player posting here) insisted that the Terrans were just that much better. Yes, it was actually argued just like this. Yes, tears flowed. Even the OP admits to thinking that Terran players were just playing better. Maybe that was the case. Or, maybe Terran was super broken. Or, maybe the better players were just playing the super broken race, which happened to be Terran, because they liked winning. Or it could have been anything to justify that level of dominance.
Going back to your silly & transparent analogy, imagine that Car A loses when the drivers swap. Driver of Car B complains that he did not have enough practice with Car A, but insists that Car A is definitely much more powerful.
No excuses possible, unless the data doesn't support the hypothesis. Right?
It seems that it's Zerg's turn to be overpowered. This, too, shall pass. Or it won't, and everyone ought to switch to Zerg, if they're really unbeatable in non-mirrors.
It just seems like an adapt, switch, or quit situation, to me. It's not like it hasn't happened before.
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TL;DR
I stopped after you said that because zerg can scout better terran can't win as much with 1-2 base all ins and that is somehow a bad thing.
I'll admit ZvT is currently my best MU, but it's not because of the buffs it's because I learned the double evo infestor style.
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On June 24 2012 15:25 DerBos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 13:49 Chaggi wrote:On June 24 2012 13:37 BigFan wrote:From that thread: "Zerg players are just more talented. More talented people tend to play Zerg and it shows. If many of these players went into another profession they would likely be doctors or lawyers." LOL love how he links Zerg players to being doctors and lawyers, but what about scientists? T_T The statistics are definitely interesting though Pretty sure that's sarcasm. Agreed. At least half the people contributing to that thread, however, certainly aren´t (becoming) doctors, lawyers or scientists by the the looks of the illogical bs they post. At the risk of repeating myself, there is an objective way of detecting imbalance and it´s already been done! Top players can off-race and play top-players of their own race, like DeMuslim did vs. ForGG the other day (and won). The fact that DeMuslim won (even if it´s only once) the game is imbalanced by a solid amount because this CAN NOT HAPPEN in a balanced situation, full stop! It makes all arguments like "hellions are still super strong" or "terran still has the most awesome tier 1 units" totally futile! Agreed? If not, I would be psyched to hear arguments! Practically all arguments in balance discussions so far are useless because they have no experimental bases, and often, they are ad-hoc hypotheses! E.g. "Zerg players are more talented and that is in fact the reason for them winning more often, now that the game is balanced". Let´s look at this with an analogy: Imagine a car race where car A is under the unproven suspicion of having 50% more engine power than car B (and let´s say that couldn´t be easily mechanically tested). Car A constantly wins more often. Driver of car B complains that car A is overpowered but driver of car A says "Oh, I´m just more talented than you are because I win more often even though YOUR car is actually overpowered. Stop the whining and l2d!". But arguing about that leads to nothing, of course, because there is no data available other than the current results which could arise from BOTH scenarios (driver A more talented vs. car A overpowered). But then drivers swap cars and now the win/loss statistic inverts. Oops! That would obviously kill driver A´s argument and SHOW that car A is in fact overpowered! No excuses possible! And I am saying that this, in similar form, HAS ALREADY HAPPENED with the game of DeMuslim vs. ForGG!
I'm a Terran player and this just sounds stupid to me. The analogy doesn't make sense, sample size is way too small, etc etc
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On June 24 2012 17:54 MinusPlus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 15:25 DerBos wrote:
At the risk of repeating myself, there is an objective way of detecting imbalance and it´s already been done! Top players can off-race and play top-players of their own race, like DeMuslim did vs. ForGG the other day (and won). The fact that DeMuslim won (even if it´s only once) the game is imbalanced by a solid amount because this CAN NOT HAPPEN in a balanced situation, full stop! It makes all arguments like "hellions are still super strong" or "terran still has the most awesome tier 1 units" totally futile! Agreed? If not, I would be psyched to hear arguments!
I bolded the important part. Your entire argument thus far is based on a hilariously small sample size. Don't talk about experimental bases when you're basing everything you say on one game. It might be a fun experiment. This, instead, is called cognitive bias, and I'm sure you would have justified ("objectively") any outcome for the DeMuslim/ForGG game to defend your stance that TvZ is totally "broken atm".
Sorry, but you´re plain wrong and you should know that cognitive bias has nothing to do with my reasoning.
If not, let me explain: Sample size in that case doesn´t matter. It´s sufficient to find one case in this "test" because this is such a ridiculous situation: Everybody knows how hard professional players have to work to get to their level and this is specific for their race. If they switched races it used to take them many weeks to months to get up to an equivalent level again! Now, since DeMuslim just played a few games on ladder as Zerg and managed to win against a Terran of similar skill level as his, it´s achingly clear that TvZ is currently broken! You don't need statistics for the obvious! (the same way you don´t need to hit your thumb with a hammer more than once to find that it hurts)
In an even pretty imbalanced game, this just can not happen! This can happen only if the game is absolutely broken! Mind you that the DeMuslim - ForGG game was standard, no lucky 6 pool or other bs - the game went on for more than 30 min!
Your other point: My "silly & transparent" analogy: The thing is that driver B in car A did not lose! This was my whole point! I wouldn´t have brought the story up, if DeMuslim had played a bunch of games as Zerg, lost them and complained about how easy Zerg is but he did not have enough practice!! He WON instead!!!
I was actually hoping that now, that such a thing happened, people would just agree and go like "hm, in fact, that looks like good evidence. That really should not be possible at all.". Instead you´re coming up with some ill-applied statistical terms in a poor and unsuccessful attempt to dismantle my argument.
On June 24 2012 17:54 MinusPlus wrote:
It just seems like an adapt, switch, or quit situation, to me. It's not like it hasn't happened before.
On June 24 2012 17:54 MinusPlus wrote:
It seems that it's Zerg's turn to be overpowered.
Sad and disappointing comments as well. And I hope and assume that Blizzard doesn´t think the same way. Because then it would be more than that - it would be irresponsible. There are professional players out there whose income depends on their success. So that would force them into switching race or find another job. I really don´t think Bilzzard aimed to induce imbalance, also not back when Terra was OP over Zerg.
On June 24 2012 23:40 Chaggi wrote:
I'm a Terran player and this just sounds stupid to me. The analogy doesn't make sense, sample size is way too small, etc etc
That´s the kind of "argument" I expected from certain people. "sounds stupid", "doesn´t make sense" and repeating sth. from the comment before yours, followed by "etc. etc.". Good job!
What exactly was your argument?
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im a terran and pretty much everytime vs zerg, so i was like 'ive never played zerg,i dont know any strategy,but ill put me against a bot on VERY HARD difficulty and ill play zerg and see how it goes (remember that was my 1st time playing zerg EVER) i fucking demolished the bot with zerg/bane infestor composition and i didnt break a sweat,it was just so fucking easy i dont even know how playing zerg is anywhere near hard,i ever played rly greedy in the beginning and u know bots make early pushes (bigger with every difficulty) and i didnt had almsot any units and when i saw the push and had larva inject, was like, NP BY THE TIME U COME ILL HAVE 80 ZERGLINGS
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On June 25 2012 03:41 SDQKRambo wrote:
im a terran and pretty much everytime vs zerg, so i was like 'ive never played zerg,i dont know any strategy,but ill put me against a bot on VERY HARD difficulty and ill play zerg and see how it goes (remember that was my 1st time playing zerg EVER) i fucking demolished the bot with zerg/bane infestor composition and i didnt break a sweat,it was just so fucking easy i dont even know how playing zerg is anywhere near hard,i ever played rly greedy in the beginning and u know bots make early pushes (bigger with every difficulty) and i didnt had almsot any units and when i saw the push and had larva inject, was like, NP BY THE TIME U COME ILL HAVE 80 ZERGLINGS
Hopefully this is sarcasm. Anyone who has any clue in this game whatsoever can beat a very hard bot as any race.
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Yeah, even insane bot is easy to beat as any race if you know what you are doing.
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On June 25 2012 03:41 SDQKRambo wrote:
im a terran and pretty much everytime vs zerg, so i was like 'ive never played zerg,i dont know any strategy,but ill put me against a bot on VERY HARD difficulty and ill play zerg and see how it goes (remember that was my 1st time playing zerg EVER) i fucking demolished the bot with zerg/bane infestor composition and i didnt break a sweat,it was just so fucking easy i dont even know how playing zerg is anywhere near hard,i ever played rly greedy in the beginning and u know bots make early pushes (bigger with every difficulty) and i didnt had almsot any units and when i saw the push and had larva inject, was like, NP BY THE TIME U COME ILL HAVE 80 ZERGLINGS
Ya, sorry bro, we have to look at balance at the top level (and for sure not vs. bot).
I am hovering between plat and diamond and have little problems with Zerg as Terran so I don´t argue for my case - I was talking about the game at the top level and I would really like to hear back from MinusPlus on my reply!
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yes i know,i wanted to point out how easy and safe i felt while playing it,and its rly hard to feel this way as terran especially vs zerg nowadays, so yeh i defo think zerg imba
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On June 25 2012 04:45 DerBos wrote:
... and I would really like to hear back from MinusPlus on my reply!
Fine. The way your post is really annoying, but I'll respond just this once.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote:
Sorry, but you´re plain wrong and you should know that cognitive bias has nothing to do with my reasoning.
If not, let me explain: Sample size in that case doesn´t matter. It´s sufficient to find one case in this "test" because this is such a ridiculous situation:
The ridiculous situation being that a high level player offraced and won a single game. Just so we're clear. And yes, cognitive bias has everything to do with your reasoning. It's not sufficient to find one case in this test.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote:
Now, since DeMuslim just played a few games on ladder as Zerg and managed to win against a Terran of similar skill level as his, it´s achingly clear that TvZ is currently broken! You don't need statistics for the obvious!
"Similar skill level" is arguable; no it isn't; and, yes you do, if you intend to "prove" anything.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote:
In an even pretty imbalanced game, this just can not happen! This can happen only if the game is absolutely broken! Mind you that the DeMuslim - ForGG game was standard, no lucky 6 pool or other bs - the game went on for more than 30 min!
Because SC2 is a perfectly balanced game, at all points during the game, which has literally no elements of luck, attentiveness, or player psychology.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote:
Your other point: My "silly & transparent" analogy: The thing is that driver B in car A did not lose! This was my whole point! I wouldn´t have brought the story up, if DeMuslim had played a bunch of games as Zerg, lost them and complained about how easy Zerg is but he did not have enough practice!! He WON instead!!!
So, you wouldn't have mentioned it -- "it" being a single game, apparently, -- if it didn't support your argument, and you would have dismissed it if it had been brought up as an argument against your thinking that Zerg is "obviously" overpowered against T, due to lack of practice, difference in skill, or some other such nonsense.
Ok.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote:
I was actually hoping that now, that such a thing happened, people would just agree and go like "hm, in fact, that looks like good evidence. That really should not be possible at all.". Instead you´re coming up with some ill-applied statistical terms in a poor and unsuccessful attempt to dismantle my argument.
Don't kid yourself. When Zerg (for instance) had severe problems in the reverse matchup, a lot of people put a lot of effort into dismissing all of their complaints as "insufficient evidence". You haven't even scratched the surface with your excited rambling about this single case.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote:
Sad and disappointing comments as well. And I hope and assume that Blizzard doesn´t think the same way. Because then it would be more than that - it would be irresponsible. There are professional players out there whose income depends on their success. So that would force them into switching race or find another job. I really don´t think Bilzzard aimed to induce imbalance, also not back when Terra was OP over Zerg.
So much that it hurts. A progamer's job is not to win in his or her favorite way; it's to win. They're professionals playing a game that's still being made, and that has its own implications (both good and bad). I have no idea what the last bit of your last sentence is supposed to mean.
On June 25 2012 03:31 DerBos wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 23:40 Chaggi wrote:
I'm a Terran player and this just sounds stupid to me. The analogy doesn't make sense, sample size is way too small, etc etc That´s the kind of "argument" I expected from certain people. "sounds stupid", "doesn´t make sense" and repeating sth. from the comment before yours, followed by "etc. etc.". Good job! What exactly was your argument?
Those "certain people" being anyone who doesn't agree that Terran is obviously crippled to the point of unplayability at this point, I assume.
And DerBos...even the people who sympathize with you would disown you for arguing that a single game -- or a single series, even, -- proves whatever it is you're trying to say objectively. You're really going to have to try harder. Maybe a lengthy blog about how your argument is right because of how many people agree with you would work.
Regardless, I don't care. I really only posted to call you out on arguing in the most idiotic way possible. Note that I'm not calling you an idiot here, just pointing out that you argue like one. A painfully uninformed one, at that...like that person who took a stab at SotG for not inviting avilo on to talk about balance.
Oh wait. That was also you, Der.
Edit: Oh, also, you're obviously free to PM if you'd like to discuss something further, DerBos. I may or may not continue to be dismissive, of course.
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