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On June 21 2012 15:09 boomudead1 wrote:
i love the fact that this is only a blog so people can simply type whatever they want. even so i learnt so much by reading from all these detailed arguments. i feel sad because there are people who doesnt stand in our shoe and yet still telling us what to do. i feel like commenting on this blog because im a terran i feel all yall out there and for those who dont feel me why dont u try and experience it to see how us terrans feel. those who feels like this is a whine blog, ur not feeling it bro. however anybody has the right to feel anything and we can alway not give a crap about how someone feels. untill then terran and zerg cant come to an agreement otherwise there wouldnt be TvZ. both Z and T has their own feels to the matchup so who gives a crap about how other race feels. untill then keeps up with yo games terran chaos borns from order and order borns from chaos. change will come. luckyfool i feel u bro.
Blizzard and the community care. TvZ simply hasn't been as entertaining as it was pre-patch. It's really boring seeing DRG just roll over every single terran.
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On June 21 2012 14:03 KonohaFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 12:49 beetlelisk wrote:On June 21 2012 11:58 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 06:34 beetlelisk wrote: I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast.
It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost. Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it. Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before. There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional. Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though. I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more. Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight.
You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled.
This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality.
The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this. I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers. I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death. Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers? I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it. Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races. No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races? We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please. Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted.
I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit
I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore. There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army. Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably. Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors. Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen.
My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race" Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach. Why would you not cloak your ghosts? I don't even know what to say. Still saying my reading comprehension is low, yet not once have I jumped to conclusions in this topic. All i have done is refute your claims why you continue to provide your anecdotal evidence, if you can even call it that.
You said that I by talking about eras of races being overpowered, meant that it is ok, which I said not and did not mean.
This the proof number 1 of your reading comprehension not being ok.
The proof number 2 is you jumping to conclusions again and thinking I'm against cloaking ghosts which I also didn't say.
I said we aren't talking about ghosts being cloaked yet. The problem about cloaking is it requires waiting for the ghost to have more energy so it has enough energy to 1) become cloaked which takes 25e 2) to reach it's targets while being cloaked which takes 0,9 energy / second and 3) cast an EMP. Terran wants to be aggressive which means units made are being instantly sent to the front lines so not always ghost may have enough energy to do steps 1), 2) and 3).
Cloaking is of course desired by terran to use but further complicates already complicated matter of using ghosts.
In an actual desire of mine to show respect to terran players you accuse me of having not I try to take the problem step by step instead of jumping right away to advanced micro solutions that aren't seen to be used and thus would require anyone trying to address my point to at very least be careful and skeptical.
And while I'm talking about using cloaked ghost I think Taeja showed a great way to EMP before engaging against StarTale_AcE, today. IMO terrans should take the example of using ghosts from the way they play TvP.
In the engagement I'm talking about Taeja didn't send ghosts alone but by just a few squares ahead of the rest of the forces, cast EMPs and immediately engaged with the rest of his forces while pulling ghosts back. This allowed him to be able to immediately aid ghosts in case they are revealed and attacked.
I am guessing terran attempting to EMP infestors in TvZ has an advantage because EMP has 10 range while fungal has 9 and EMP disables several spellcasters at once so especially coupling this with cloak gives terran upper hand and element of surprise which can be used to cast more EMPs than zerg casts fungals.
You not knowing storm reveals cloaked units, once again shows your limited knowledge in the game, and the fact you need to cite liquipedia shows how little you know about the overall game, and really shouldn't comment and tell Terran's what they should try to expand on to better play in TvZ.
The fact is you pulled that knowledge right out of your ass as I tested this and confirmed that storm doesn't reveal shit.
Fail at reading comprehension proof number 3: confirming something by going to number 1 source for StarCraft knowledge doesn't mean showing lack of knowledge. You disregarding Liquipedia does show ignorance on your part though.
I don't feel flamebaited, all I see is your pathetic attempts at flamebaiting others, which you did succeed in doing. Why would I care about what someone like you has to say about balance?
You reply to me so you do care. You twist the meaning of my words 3 times, show ignorance and pull non existing facts out of your ass to try to discredit me so who is flamebaiting who here? Me 5:0 you, right here, right now.
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On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote:
GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES??
MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post.
I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors?
And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion....
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On June 22 2012 05:24 vitaum88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote:
GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES??
MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post. I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors? And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion....
Prolly was banned for abusing bold text and caps lock.
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On June 22 2012 05:54 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:24 vitaum88 wrote:On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote:
GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES??
MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post. I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors? And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion.... Prolly was banned for abusing bold text and caps lock.
wouldnt taht be worth only a warning or such?
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hey there is TSL4 Korean qualifier #2 going on right now and TvZ is being played, NSH Sting (terran) won the first game.
On June 22 2012 06:02 vitaum88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:54 beetlelisk wrote:On June 22 2012 05:24 vitaum88 wrote:On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote:
GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES??
MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post. I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors? And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion.... Prolly was banned for abusing bold text and caps lock. wouldnt taht be worth only a warning or such?
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=32696¤tpage=1290#25789
looks like it wasn't and he was banned once already
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On June 22 2012 06:02 vitaum88 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 05:54 beetlelisk wrote:On June 22 2012 05:24 vitaum88 wrote:On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote:
GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES??
MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post. I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors? And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion.... Prolly was banned for abusing bold text and caps lock. wouldnt taht be worth only a warning or such?
Only if your post count is greater than or equal to 1000. 
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On June 22 2012 06:19 EsX_Raptor wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 06:02 vitaum88 wrote:On June 22 2012 05:54 beetlelisk wrote:On June 22 2012 05:24 vitaum88 wrote:On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote:
GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES??
MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post. I liked the idea a LOT... For instance PDD and seeker missile the PDD? It doesnt get insta owned by corruptors? And i don't get it why the poster was banned.. It at least adds new meat to the discussion.... Prolly was banned for abusing bold text and caps lock. wouldnt taht be worth only a warning or such? Only if your post count is greater than or equal to 1000.
yeah you have to be a high post count user and/or a veteran to have chance at being treated more kindly
BUT HEY let's talk about this in the ABL Discussion thread in TL Community and remain on topic here.
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On June 22 2012 00:42 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2012 14:03 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 12:49 beetlelisk wrote:On June 21 2012 11:58 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 06:34 beetlelisk wrote: I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast.
It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost. Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it. Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before. There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional. Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though. I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more. Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight.
You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled.
This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality.
The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this. I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers. I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death. Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers? I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it. Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races. No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races? We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please. Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted.
I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit
I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore. There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army. Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably. Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors. Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen.
My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race" Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach. Why would you not cloak your ghosts? I don't even know what to say. Still saying my reading comprehension is low, yet not once have I jumped to conclusions in this topic. All i have done is refute your claims why you continue to provide your anecdotal evidence, if you can even call it that. You said that I by talking about eras of races being overpowered, meant that it is ok, which I said not and did not mean. This the proof number 1 of your reading comprehension not being ok. The proof number 2 is you jumping to conclusions again and thinking I'm against cloaking ghosts which I also didn't say. I said we aren't talking about ghosts being cloaked yet. The problem about cloaking is it requires waiting for the ghost to have more energy so it has enough energy to 1) become cloaked which takes 25e 2) to reach it's targets while being cloaked which takes 0,9 energy / second and 3) cast an EMP. Terran wants to be aggressive which means units made are being instantly sent to the front lines so not always ghost may have enough energy to do steps 1), 2) and 3). Cloaking is of course desired by terran to use but further complicates already complicated matter of using ghosts. In an actual desire of mine to show respect to terran players you accuse me of having not I try to take the problem step by step instead of jumping right away to advanced micro solutions that aren't seen to be used and thus would require anyone trying to address my point to at very least be careful and skeptical. And while I'm talking about using cloaked ghost I think Taeja showed a great way to EMP before engaging against StarTale_AcE, today. IMO terrans should take the example of using ghosts from the way they play TvP. In the engagement I'm talking about Taeja didn't send ghosts alone but by just a few squares ahead of the rest of the forces, cast EMPs and immediately engaged with the rest of his forces while pulling ghosts back. This allowed him to be able to immediately aid ghosts in case they are revealed and attacked. I am guessing terran attempting to EMP infestors in TvZ has an advantage because EMP has 10 range while fungal has 9 and EMP disables several spellcasters at once so especially coupling this with cloak gives terran upper hand and element of surprise which can be used to cast more EMPs than zerg casts fungals. Show nested quote +You not knowing storm reveals cloaked units, once again shows your limited knowledge in the game, and the fact you need to cite liquipedia shows how little you know about the overall game, and really shouldn't comment and tell Terran's what they should try to expand on to better play in TvZ. The fact is you pulled that knowledge right out of your ass as I tested this and confirmed that storm doesn't reveal shit. Fail at reading comprehension proof number 3: confirming something by going to number 1 source for StarCraft knowledge doesn't mean showing lack of knowledge. You disregarding Liquipedia does show ignorance on your part though. Show nested quote +I don't feel flamebaited, all I see is your pathetic attempts at flamebaiting others, which you did succeed in doing. Why would I care about what someone like you has to say about balance? You reply to me so you do care. You twist the meaning of my words 3 times, show ignorance and pull non existing facts out of your ass to try to discredit me so who is flamebaiting who here? Me 5:0 you, right here, right now.
This is too funny. The fact you still think storm and fungal doesn't reveal units just goes to show you really don't play this game at a high level. You used a unit testeer? Oh you mean the tester that allows you to see both sides units regardless of cloak and burrow?
This is seriously too funny. That is why I said there is no reason for me to care about what you have to say.
All you do is establish a viewpoint from watching VoDs, not knowing the actual mechanics of each respective race, and you still think you can talk about balance.
5:0 what? You're trying to say you're beating me in a debate, when your reading comprehension is a joke?
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Storm
http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fungal_Growth
The best part about this, is the very fact you flat out stated fungal and storm don't affect cloaked and burrowed units, then cited liquipedia as well. You have zero credibility or knowledge of the game outside of your "VoDs"
Leave the balance talk to the people in high master and beyond.
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On June 22 2012 14:40 KonohaFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 00:42 beetlelisk wrote:On June 21 2012 14:03 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 12:49 beetlelisk wrote:On June 21 2012 11:58 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 06:34 beetlelisk wrote: I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast.
It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost. Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it. Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before. There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional. Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though. I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more. Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight.
You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled.
This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality.
The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this. I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers. I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death. Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers? I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it. Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races. No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races? We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please. Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted.
I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit
I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore. There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army. Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably. Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors. Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen.
My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race" Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach. Why would you not cloak your ghosts? I don't even know what to say. Still saying my reading comprehension is low, yet not once have I jumped to conclusions in this topic. All i have done is refute your claims why you continue to provide your anecdotal evidence, if you can even call it that. You said that I by talking about eras of races being overpowered, meant that it is ok, which I said not and did not mean. This the proof number 1 of your reading comprehension not being ok. The proof number 2 is you jumping to conclusions again and thinking I'm against cloaking ghosts which I also didn't say. I said we aren't talking about ghosts being cloaked yet. The problem about cloaking is it requires waiting for the ghost to have more energy so it has enough energy to 1) become cloaked which takes 25e 2) to reach it's targets while being cloaked which takes 0,9 energy / second and 3) cast an EMP. Terran wants to be aggressive which means units made are being instantly sent to the front lines so not always ghost may have enough energy to do steps 1), 2) and 3). Cloaking is of course desired by terran to use but further complicates already complicated matter of using ghosts. In an actual desire of mine to show respect to terran players you accuse me of having not I try to take the problem step by step instead of jumping right away to advanced micro solutions that aren't seen to be used and thus would require anyone trying to address my point to at very least be careful and skeptical. And while I'm talking about using cloaked ghost I think Taeja showed a great way to EMP before engaging against StarTale_AcE, today. IMO terrans should take the example of using ghosts from the way they play TvP. In the engagement I'm talking about Taeja didn't send ghosts alone but by just a few squares ahead of the rest of the forces, cast EMPs and immediately engaged with the rest of his forces while pulling ghosts back. This allowed him to be able to immediately aid ghosts in case they are revealed and attacked. I am guessing terran attempting to EMP infestors in TvZ has an advantage because EMP has 10 range while fungal has 9 and EMP disables several spellcasters at once so especially coupling this with cloak gives terran upper hand and element of surprise which can be used to cast more EMPs than zerg casts fungals. You not knowing storm reveals cloaked units, once again shows your limited knowledge in the game, and the fact you need to cite liquipedia shows how little you know about the overall game, and really shouldn't comment and tell Terran's what they should try to expand on to better play in TvZ. The fact is you pulled that knowledge right out of your ass as I tested this and confirmed that storm doesn't reveal shit. Fail at reading comprehension proof number 3: confirming something by going to number 1 source for StarCraft knowledge doesn't mean showing lack of knowledge. You disregarding Liquipedia does show ignorance on your part though. I don't feel flamebaited, all I see is your pathetic attempts at flamebaiting others, which you did succeed in doing. Why would I care about what someone like you has to say about balance? You reply to me so you do care. You twist the meaning of my words 3 times, show ignorance and pull non existing facts out of your ass to try to discredit me so who is flamebaiting who here? Me 5:0 you, right here, right now. This is too funny. The fact you still think storm and fungal doesn't reveal units just goes to show you really don't play this game at a high level. You used a unit testeer? Oh you mean the tester that allows you to see both sides units regardless of cloak and burrow?
And there goes the proof of ignorance number 2: unit testers allow to pick and change the vision given by units.
Also proof of a fail at reading comprehension number 4: I never said fungal doesn't reveal cloaked units.
Why would someone have to play at a high level to check basic stuff like that?
This is seriously too funny. That is why I said there is no reason for me to care about what you have to say.
What is really funny is you thinking you it's funny when you are completely, utterly wrong in everything you say. Your ignorance is astounding.
All you do is establish a viewpoint from watching VoDs, not knowing the actual mechanics of each respective race, and you still think you can talk about balance.
Proof of a fail at reading comprehension number 5: using ghosts is only a part of playing TvZ, as such it can't be enough to fix any imbalance if it exists. As such I could never imply I am talking about balance. At most I was talking about fighting the odds and that only blizzard patching proofs imbalance at the end, everything before that is a talk.
I repeat: we aren't talking about general TvZ mechanics here, if you imply that, we are talking about using ghosts, only.
It's 8:0 now, don't go psychological projection on me when you have no idea what you are talking about in any part of your post. Proof of ignorance number 3: you link me to the storm article without reading it. It says that storm affects cloaked and burrowed units, it doesn't say anywhere that it reveals them. So it's 9:0 now.
The best part about this, is the very fact you flat out stated fungal and storm don't affect cloaked and burrowed units, then cited liquipedia as well. You have zero credibility or knowledge of the game outside of your "VoDs"
Leave the balance talk to the people in high master and beyond.
LOL hahahahah you are a joke. Should I count stating the same thing twice (storm reveals cloaked units) and accusing me of something I didn't as 11:0? Maybe not.
Try harder, you are bad at trying.
edit: oh and you edited in this:
Leave the balance talk to the people in high master and beyond.
Very quick example of a person most definitely knowledgeable enough about the game who is not in HM is Chill:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=95875¤tpage=1200#23989
On June 22 2012 15:03 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 14:52 Jisall wrote:
Xinflames was just temp banned for 1 week by Chill.
That account was created on 2011-08-04 11:44:22 and had 15 posts.
Reason: Don't be a dick on bnet.
I'm having flashbacks When he found out about it: http://i.imgur.com/nVysP.jpgDon't laugh at my platinum  I haven't played since Season 3! Have to level back up
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/nVysP.jpg)
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Sweden33719 Posts
On June 20 2012 05:16 galtdunn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:50 imMUTAble787 wrote:On June 20 2012 04:44 galtdunn wrote:On June 20 2012 02:54 Psychobabas wrote:On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote:On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:Quote DRG
ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so! Quote MVP
"Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race). "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all. "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything.
" So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease? Quote Supernova
"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken. Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it. Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard. You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong. Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please.
When both zergs and terrans are pretty much in agreement that TvZ is, at best, incredibly hard right now, yes, you are being a bit unreasonable with the extent to which you are downplaying their statements lol
The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9
You are insane, unless you burrow stack 9 infestors you can't even physically fit them inside the radius of 1 emp lol
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On June 23 2012 00:06 Liquid`Jinro wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 05:16 galtdunn wrote:On June 20 2012 04:50 imMUTAble787 wrote:On June 20 2012 04:44 galtdunn wrote:On June 20 2012 02:54 Psychobabas wrote:On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote:On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:Quote DRG
ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so! Quote MVP
"Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race). "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all. "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything.
" So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease? Quote Supernova
"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken. Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it. Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard. You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong. Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please. When both zergs and terrans are pretty much in agreement that TvZ is, at best, incredibly hard right now, yes, you are being a bit unreasonable with the extent to which you are downplaying their statements lol You are insane, unless you burrow stack 9 infestors you can't even physically fit them inside the radius of 1 emp lol
I will check this again now, this a result I got once.
OH BTW infestors don't have to fit in the EMP area, they get hit even if the area just touches them. That explains how so many infestors that take area larger than that of an EMP get hit. It's true for all spells.
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Sweden33719 Posts
If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded.
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On June 23 2012 01:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded.
I had to shoot a PM so I haven't started the testing yet. The thing is units naturally clump actually THAT tightly, game reduces separate spaces between them to zero as long as at least one unit steps out of magic box when the group is ordered to move.
That's why I don't think it's that impossible to get such perfect hits, especially when infestors are moving and because of that, won't spread out after being hit by the first EMP. That's why I think EMPing in the TvP manner, i.e. right before engagement is the best way in TvZ too.
edit: while I'm at it I will test the minimal amount of infestors breaking the magic box too.
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Yep just checked, I can definitely hit 9 infestors with a single EMP. Checking number of infestors breaking the magic box now.
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On June 23 2012 01:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded.
Jinro,
Wait ratio does the ghost need to hit to make the EMP worth it, do you think? The ghost is a pricey unit and what ratio of ghosts to infestors would be effective?
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OK here are the screenshots.
Magic box for ground units is definitely smaller than for air units and is about this big:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/ERvxj.png)
11 Infestors fit in it without breaking it:
![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/wi8uL.png)
Someone has to do a detailed magic box article on Liquipedia.
On June 23 2012 01:58 Plansix wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 01:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded. Jinro, Wait ratio does the ghost need to hit to make the EMP worth it, do you think? The ghost is a pricey unit and what ratio of ghosts to infestors would be effective?
Infestor costs about as much as a Ghost (100/150 250 resources vs 200/100 300 resources) and you can hit 4-6 Infestors on average with each EMP so 4 to 6 times less ghosts than zerg has infestors, in my honest opinion.
Sorry for chiming in.
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On June 23 2012 02:42 beetlelisk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +OK here are the screenshots. Magic box for ground units is definitely smaller than for air units and is about this big: 11 Infestors fit in it without breaking it: Someone has to do a detailed magic box article on Liquipedia. Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 01:58 Plansix wrote:On June 23 2012 01:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded. Jinro, Wait ratio does the ghost need to hit to make the EMP worth it, do you think? The ghost is a pricey unit and what ratio of ghosts to infestors would be effective? Infestor costs about as much as a Ghost (100/150 250 resources vs 200/100 300 resources) and you can hit 4-6 Infestors on average with each EMP so 4 to 6 times less ghosts than zerg has infestors, in my honest opinion. Sorry for chiming in.
I like the fact that this discussion uses facts, the unit tester and screenshots, yet I think there is some miscommunication that I cannot quite place.
I can accept the calculation and findings above, and yet believe that ghosts are not cost efficient. Here are a few things that are crucial to the conclusions but which have not yet been explicated.
a) The Ghost has a 40 second build time and requires a tech lab. As the number of simultaneous ghosts being made is limited by the number of tech-lab rax, the production of ghosts has a larger opportunity cost than the infestor that can be mass-produced.
b) 1 EMP is insufficient. To get rid of fungal, a ghost must land 2 EMP's, halving all the calculations above.
c) Regular movement. Unlike air units, infestors do not clump up. Most of the time when a Z moves his army around, the infestors form a line. Thus, the only time we are talking about clumped up infestors (4-6 as you said), is when the Z has move-commanded all his infestors to one location, and they have arrived to re-clump. This also needs fewer units to be around, so that they do not interfere with clumping. It would be interesting to watch some random replays just to observe general infestor behaviour in this regard.
d) The ghost is not a useful fighting unit. So the cost effectiveness of the ghost should be measured in terms of its limited utility. I won't say anything about it myself, it's not obvious, but what if the ghost does what it's supposed to do, and zero infestors remain to the Zerg. Wouldn't the supply and costs reduce the effectiveness of the Z army, just like vikings do when air units are no longer on the field? This observation ought to figure in the cost effectiveness calculations.
The last point is unfortunate to Beetlelisk, but Jinro plays the game for a living, and probably has a ton of personal experience of the interaction between the ghost and the infestor. I would love to hear more from him (and other pros) to learn myself, but I would advocate taking a pro's experience as valuable data until they themselves or other pros point out deficiencies in the experience.
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On June 23 2012 03:19 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 02:42 beetlelisk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +OK here are the screenshots. Magic box for ground units is definitely smaller than for air units and is about this big: 11 Infestors fit in it without breaking it: Someone has to do a detailed magic box article on Liquipedia. On June 23 2012 01:58 Plansix wrote:On June 23 2012 01:01 Liquid`Jinro wrote:
If you stack the infestors as tight as humanly possible, and get an absolute perfect hit you will get 9, but if zerg stacks them that tightly he's retarded. Jinro, Wait ratio does the ghost need to hit to make the EMP worth it, do you think? The ghost is a pricey unit and what ratio of ghosts to infestors would be effective? Infestor costs about as much as a Ghost (100/150 250 resources vs 200/100 300 resources) and you can hit 4-6 Infestors on average with each EMP so 4 to 6 times less ghosts than zerg has infestors, in my honest opinion. Sorry for chiming in. I like the fact that this discussion uses facts, the unit tester and screenshots, yet I think there is some miscommunication that I cannot quite place. I can accept the calculation and findings above, and yet believe that ghosts are not cost efficient. Here are a few things that are crucial to the conclusions but which have not yet been explicated. a) The Ghost has a 40 second build time and requires a tech lab. As the number of simultaneous ghosts being made is limited by the number of tech-lab rax, the production of ghosts has a larger opportunity cost than the infestor that can be mass-produced.
1 Ghost also costs as much as 4 marines in minerals alone but takes less then a half of production cycle time needed for marines. Marines are being made in 25 seconds, 2 marines is 50 seconds so more than production of a ghost takes.
How many ghosts would a barracks produce throughout entire game? Divide the tech lab cost by that amount for each ghost - 4 ghosts would mean their actual cost is 212,5 minerals instead of 200. Now subtract the cost of barracks saved thanks to production of ghosts taking less time than production of marines for the same cost.
I may be wrong though  , and production of ghosts would require more rax and tech labs than standard TvZ bio production because is my example of marines true and they are the unit being cut to make ghosts?
Question is what gas unit has to be cut to allow for production of a ghost. 1 Medivac (and 2 marines)? Nearly 1 Siege Tank (and 1 marine, 125gas for a tank, that's why "nearly")?
This shows the problem of the ghost doesn't lie in micro only but also touches the problem of managing resources.
But it all comes down to the Ghost being worthy enough.
b) 1 EMP is insufficient. To get rid of fungal, a ghost must land 2 EMP's, halving all the calculations above.
This is true for infestors with more than 100 energy but is this what you meant? If yes then by that time ghosts also have more energy for EMP. What is left is clicking fast enough :/
c) Regular movement. Unlike air units, infestors do not clump up. Most of the time when a Z moves his army around, the infestors form a line. Thus, the only time we are talking about clumped up infestors (4-6 as you said), is when the Z has move-commanded all his infestors to one location, and they have arrived to re-clump. This also needs fewer units to be around, so that they do not interfere with clumping. It would be interesting to watch some random replays just to observe general infestor behaviour in this regard.
This is very true and something I've missed. I think it comes down to if infestor line is at least 2 infestors wide and different positioning of ghosts... yeah I will definitely observe their movement in games I am going to watch.
d) The ghost is not a useful fighting unit. So the cost effectiveness of the ghost should be measured in terms of its limited utility. I won't say anything about it myself, it's not obvious, but what if the ghost does what it's supposed to do, and zero infestors remain to the Zerg. Wouldn't the supply and costs reduce the effectiveness of the Z army, just like vikings do when air units are no longer on the field? This observation ought to figure in the cost effectiveness calculations.
I guess as long as they do their job they are fine because it takes less ghosts for terran to produce to nullify infestors zerg produces, thanks to EMP being AoE. I mean, imagine number of marines saved with no fungals around.
Too bad that snipe was nerfed to oblivion, blizzard should listen to Qxc :/
The last point is unfortunate to Beetlelisk, but Jinro plays the game for a living, and probably has a ton of personal experience of the interaction between the ghost and the infestor. I would love to hear more from him (and other pros) to learn myself, but I would advocate taking a pro's experience as valuable data until they themselves or other pros point out deficiencies in the experience.
So far I was addressing whines or regular posters, I think only KawaiiRice posted about ghosts not being worthy of being made, so far. Maybe I should tone down and starting more of an asking than stating that ghost should be used more, there is a reason it's not being used. But what is the reason?
I would also love to hear more from Jinro, too bad that LuckyFool won't take his stance even after I PMed him.
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I'm just wondering Beetlelisk, what rank are you? Please respond. And also, how long have you been playing and do you have any achievements placed in this game? Just want to see if you dodge with a "rank does not matter" statement.
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EPT
