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On June 22 2012 14:40 KonohaFlash wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2012 00:42 beetlelisk wrote:On June 21 2012 14:03 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 12:49 beetlelisk wrote:On June 21 2012 11:58 KonohaFlash wrote:On June 21 2012 06:34 beetlelisk wrote: I think you missed our earlier "conversation" where I was advising to fly ravens close enough for HSM to instantly hit after being launched, even at the cost of raven being caught in the blast.
It's not the Raven I really want to focus on here though, it's the Ghost. Your focus on the ghost doesn't make sense to be honest. You call the ghost anti-spell caster, yet high templar have feedback, storm which can reveal cloaked/burrowed units, as well as infestors that can fungal that reveals both cloaked and burrowed units. Obviously they aren't on the same level as the Ghost, in that regard, but they still have the tools necessary to be "anti-spellcaster" as you like to call it. Terran players have been using ghosts for a very long time. We saw them being used plenty before the infestor buff. We still saw them in TvZ even after the Snipe nerf, yet they just weren't pulling their weight in late-game TvZ as they had before. There is a reason Terran players don't make them as much as they used to. If you can't understand that, and still think the top korean pros need to "explore the ghost" you are delusional. Storm revealing cloaked/burrowed units is a news to me, Liquipedia doesn't mention it. I don't know why are you mentioning other spellcasters, is it wrong if HT can also be called an anti - spellcaster unit because of feedback? I think I would rather call the HT just a spellcaster as storm is the primary ability and feedback secondary while 2 of 3 ghost's abilities aim spellcasters. I don't know where are we going with this semantics though. I would like to know the reason why ghosts aren't used as much in TvZ and I don't find it to be delusional that ghosts are underused and should be used more. Who's talking about fighting the zerg army while EMPing? EMP before the fight.
You are wrong, I just tested this in an unit tester. Medivac can load and unload units while being fungaled.
This means this is not the reason why terrans aren't doing this, I would blame the indivisible blob - army mentality.
The bigger problem I see though is creep tumors giving sight which makes zerg that has army on the creep may know when there are medivacs or ghosts trying to approach infestors. Zerg may move his other units in between approaching medivacs or ghosts and infestors. Solution to this may be diverting zerg's attention to somewhere else but I'm by no means teaching no terran by saying this. I misspoke. You can't load units once they are fungalled is correct. Diverting the Zerg(drop) isn't going to make him remove his infestors from the rest of his main army. Not to mention if you even EMP 2-3 infestors with your first emp, you will learn from this mistake and create overseers. I forget what GSL season it was, but there was a game between Byun and Leenock where he went with the ghost play you're talking about. Byun did some amazing ghost play, and got lots of emps off, but it just didn't cut it. Leenock just made overseers and fungalled his ghosts to death. Even if you divert zerg's attention you still approach infestors from the side that has less units around infestors. The average number of infestors hit by an EMP is 4-6 and goes up to 9. Test it yourself. We aren't talking about cloaking ghosts yet so what's the point in making overseers? I'd like to see that game, I have access to pirated GSL games so maybe I will find it. Which still doesn't mean anything, the same is true for all races. No? Zerg can stockpile larvae in the late-game and create as many units as they have larvae and resources, Protoss can warp units pertaining to their gateway count, and Terran can only make 1 unit at a time per barracks. What exactly are you talking about when you say it is true for all the races? We are delving into semantics again. Only protoss warping in units is the closest to making unit instantaneously. We can say that zerg late game past being maxed out point has unit production advantage (but still can't make units instantaneously) and it's not that high as zerg units are weaker and zerg still has to make more hatcheries to really abuse the amount of larvae. Both protoss and terran can make only 1 unit per production building at the same time so don't try to word it like terran is harmed by design please. Wait, are we on the same page? I keep on talking about using ghosts and not talking about the queen buff or some general TvZ mechanics. I am not responsible for you people trying to visualize me as a ignorant noob being against everything said by pros in this thread. I already explained that in my post you quoted.
I am not adamant at proving anyone wrong about ravens, I just said I think there is a potential to explore about them (which is my personal opinion and is not thrown out here to spite anyone) and noticed that if someone says zerg has to be wary of HSM and run from it then he basically agrees that ravens are worth making, because they do constitute a threat big enough. edit: Also one terran semi-pro who uses ravens is avilo but I don't know if he advocated the usage of them in this thread. He thinks they are underpowered too though. /edit
I repeat, I am not talking about queen buff at all and I don't know how did you conclude that I was. This is a matter I am not going to touch much, all I can say is I believe that every early game attack used by terrans so far isn't working against multiple queens with maybe some spine crawler support. Which doesn't necessarily have to mean there is no such attack to explore. There is a very limited potential with the raven, other than clearing creep in the mid-game, or using slow HSM to hope your opponent doesn't spread out their BL/Infestor/Corrupter army. Avilo already said Ravens are bad, as with every other pro. I don't care if you aren't talking about the queen buff. It is the exact reason the match-up has changed considerably. This is simply because of the design philosophy of the game. Blizzard has said multiple times, Terran needs to use their early-midgame advantage to damage their opponent's economy, so they can proceed into the late-game comfortably. Avilo said in his HotS blog he wishes for raven buff to happen so he still sees a potential in this unit. I also remember his guide that focuses on using ravens so I guess there is more to it than just hoping zerg doesn't spread his corruptors. Yes terran has to be aggressive in early - midgame so we will see how things develope, whether it's someone revolutionizing the TvZ metagame or a new patch. That's everything I'm going to say about the queen buff and it doesn't show in any way that TvZ lategame has nothing to improve. People whined about infestors so I jumped on the topic of using ghost and I'm going to remain solely on that topic.
LOL maybe instead of me educating myself you should improve your reading comprehension. How saying that terran players had no chance to try as hard as players of other races, because of the short amount of time, means that it is ok for anyone to be overpowered?
It not being ok doesn't in any way influence the fact that some races are going to be stronger than other during periods of time, especially with new expansions coming. It is not ok but it will happen.
My approach is to seek solutions until a patch officially states that something was overpowered. It's ok to be frustrated but giving up shows you are a weak player. I think Blizzard also values and is influenced by opinion of someone who tries different things way more than someone who gives up, cries imba and doesn't try to change anything about his play - I'm keeping focus on ghosts here.
My reading comprehension is perfectly fine. I like how you use the argument that Terran hasn't had enough time to explore their units, even though they literally have to play with their entire army tiers for each match-up. I would much rather trust the pros who have been playing for years, and take comments from MVP(GM Zerg and Terran on Korea),Supernova, MMA, MKP over someone such as yourself, who consistently tries to flamebait and essentialy can't support any of his statements without having to say "explore your race" Your reading comprehension is not ok if you jump to conclusions that have no relation to reality for the sole reason of attempting to gain a moral high ground. I don't know how can you say it's "perfectly fine" when I proved you wrong about you trying to guess my approach. We are talking about eras of races being overpowered, it's only true that terran didn't have to try as hard when it was the overpowered race for the longest period of time. If consider yourself flamebaited then feel free to do it, I don't care. I haven't had a chance to prove missplay in pro games yet, so far I was attacking commoners for their approach. Why would you not cloak your ghosts? I don't even know what to say. Still saying my reading comprehension is low, yet not once have I jumped to conclusions in this topic. All i have done is refute your claims why you continue to provide your anecdotal evidence, if you can even call it that. You said that I by talking about eras of races being overpowered, meant that it is ok, which I said not and did not mean. This the proof number 1 of your reading comprehension not being ok. The proof number 2 is you jumping to conclusions again and thinking I'm against cloaking ghosts which I also didn't say. I said we aren't talking about ghosts being cloaked yet. The problem about cloaking is it requires waiting for the ghost to have more energy so it has enough energy to 1) become cloaked which takes 25e 2) to reach it's targets while being cloaked which takes 0,9 energy / second and 3) cast an EMP. Terran wants to be aggressive which means units made are being instantly sent to the front lines so not always ghost may have enough energy to do steps 1), 2) and 3). Cloaking is of course desired by terran to use but further complicates already complicated matter of using ghosts. In an actual desire of mine to show respect to terran players you accuse me of having not I try to take the problem step by step instead of jumping right away to advanced micro solutions that aren't seen to be used and thus would require anyone trying to address my point to at very least be careful and skeptical. And while I'm talking about using cloaked ghost I think Taeja showed a great way to EMP before engaging against StarTale_AcE, today. IMO terrans should take the example of using ghosts from the way they play TvP. In the engagement I'm talking about Taeja didn't send ghosts alone but by just a few squares ahead of the rest of the forces, cast EMPs and immediately engaged with the rest of his forces while pulling ghosts back. This allowed him to be able to immediately aid ghosts in case they are revealed and attacked. I am guessing terran attempting to EMP infestors in TvZ has an advantage because EMP has 10 range while fungal has 9 and EMP disables several spellcasters at once so especially coupling this with cloak gives terran upper hand and element of surprise which can be used to cast more EMPs than zerg casts fungals. You not knowing storm reveals cloaked units, once again shows your limited knowledge in the game, and the fact you need to cite liquipedia shows how little you know about the overall game, and really shouldn't comment and tell Terran's what they should try to expand on to better play in TvZ. The fact is you pulled that knowledge right out of your ass as I tested this and confirmed that storm doesn't reveal shit. Fail at reading comprehension proof number 3: confirming something by going to number 1 source for StarCraft knowledge doesn't mean showing lack of knowledge. You disregarding Liquipedia does show ignorance on your part though. I don't feel flamebaited, all I see is your pathetic attempts at flamebaiting others, which you did succeed in doing. Why would I care about what someone like you has to say about balance? You reply to me so you do care. You twist the meaning of my words 3 times, show ignorance and pull non existing facts out of your ass to try to discredit me so who is flamebaiting who here? Me 5:0 you, right here, right now. This is too funny. The fact you still think storm and fungal doesn't reveal units just goes to show you really don't play this game at a high level. You used a unit testeer? Oh you mean the tester that allows you to see both sides units regardless of cloak and burrow? This is seriously too funny. That is why I said there is no reason for me to care about what you have to say. All you do is establish a viewpoint from watching VoDs, not knowing the actual mechanics of each respective race, and you still think you can talk about balance. 5:0 what? You're trying to say you're beating me in a debate, when your reading comprehension is a joke? http://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Psionic_Stormhttp://wiki.teamliquid.net/starcraft2/Fungal_GrowthThe best part about this, is the very fact you flat out stated fungal and storm don't affect cloaked and burrowed units, then cited liquipedia as well. You have zero credibility or knowledge of the game outside of your "VoDs" Leave the balance talk to the people in high master and beyond.
Please test things before making fun of others for their lack of knowledge. Psionic storm does not reveal cloak, but can damage cloaked units. Beetlelisk was right on that one. For anyone confused who wants confirmation, fungal growth does reveal cloak.
You then go on to say to leave the balance talk to "high master and beyond". What a terribly stupid statement. Should the drone-rush or 6pool to GM guy have more say on balance than some random gold player? How about Impa the infamous GM maphacker who proxy 2-gated his way to GM? Some "high master" people don't even know that psionic storm doesn't reveal cloak, and we're supposed to trust their opinions on balance? Hell, I've heard fully fledged pros say some mistaken things about the simple mechanics of the game. Executing one build very well can get you into GM, but it doesn't make you any smarter about balance.
You should trust what is said based on the merit of what is being said, not on the league of the person saying it.
As for pro player comments. Do you remember what Nestea said about the Zerg race in GSL 2012 Season 1 during the Ro16 group selections? He said something along the lines that Zerg has no way to beat Protoss, so his best hope was to pick another Zerg and he picked DRG. He lost to DRG and then DRG went on to win the tournament by going through Parting and Genius (two protosses).
Pro players whine about balance and say things are impossible all the time. Even really smart ones. All we've seen here is a bunch of Terrans saying that vsZ is too hard after about one month of a new patch. Think they might be a bit biased? DRG's comments amount to: "If I play perfectly, I feel like I will win." That's just a healthy attitude to have, not a comment on balance, no matter what race you play.
As for ghost vs Infestor, I too think it has been very underexplored. Terrans used to use mass ghosts well in TvZ in a certain way (mass snipe), but I've never really seen ghosts used in small amounts to supplement an army vsZ. You don't need to eliminate infestors and all fungals in order for ghosts to be effective. Even if you can just emp two infestors with one ghost, you've really helped your chances out greatly. Wouldn't you gladly trade two marines worth of supply for two less fungal growths and a chance of removing 5+ fungals? What about 4 marines for 4-10 fungals gone? There's an upper limit to your ghost numbers and mass ghosts would be pretty stupid, but a small handful of ghosts can really knock out one of Zerg's biggest threats and allow decently spread vikings to destroy the corrupters and BLs. All it takes is one 150/50 tech building and a 1+ barracks with tech labs. That is not exactly a huge infrastructure to toss 3-5 ghosts into your army.
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Not sure why people would argue against pros about whether or not its easy to emp infestors .. unless you do it consistently yourself who are you to say it is viable? People need to analyze the complete picture before making statements, for example even though a ghost and infestor have a similar resource cost, which unit is easier to replace? To make ghosts, terran has to sacrifice reactors, and the cost of a barracks just to make one unit is half the cost of a hatchery which can produce 3+ units at a time.
People are also underestimating how much time terran has to accomplish this maneuver. With only 1 range up on the infestor, its not easy to get hits before fungals land. Keep in mind the terran is sieging / unsieging tanks, stimming marines, spreading vs banelings, etc, while zerg mainly just a-moves lings, while microing banes and infestors. Zerg also generally has more map control which makes it hard to do tricky things like flank with ghosts or have superior positioning.
Not to say terrans shouldn't be using ghosts more.
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Thank you RenSC2 for taking your time to alone think about Ghosts in TvZ.
On June 23 2012 04:20 EienShinwa wrote:
I'm just wondering Beetlelisk, what rank are you? Please respond. And also, how long have you been playing and do you have any achievements placed in this game? Just want to see if you dodge with a "rank does not matter" statement.
I have to say I hoped this question would never come. I am platinum 99% zerg, was diamond in seasons 1, and 4.
I am playing basically since the release, with a few months break between end 2010 and mid 2011.
If by achievements you mean won tournaments then I have none, zero.
As I said in my previous post, on this point onward I will be asking terrans to get interested in using Ghosts in TvZ instead of stating this as something lacking in the gameplay and metagame.
I would very much like to dodge this question. At least LuckyFool told me in a PM I made a lot of good points.
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On June 23 2012 05:06 Xyik wrote:
Not sure why people would argue against pros about whether or not its easy to emp infestors .. unless you do it consistently yourself who are you to say it is viable? People need to analyze the complete picture before making statements, for example even though a ghost and infestor have a similar resource cost, which unit is easier to replace? To make ghosts, terran has to sacrifice reactors, and the cost of a barracks just to make one unit is half the cost of a hatchery which can produce 3+ units at a time.
People are also underestimating how much time terran has to accomplish this maneuver. With only 1 range up on the infestor, its not easy to get hits before fungals land. Keep in mind the terran is sieging / unsieging tanks, stimming marines, spreading vs banelings, etc, while zerg mainly just a-moves lings, while microing banes and infestors. Zerg also generally has more map control which makes it hard to do tricky things like flank with ghosts or have superior positioning.
Not to say terrans shouldn't be using ghosts more.
Not to mention, think about what Zerg units a Ghost is actually effective against. One. The infestor (in theory). OK fine, two, but seriously, queen?
Now think about what Terran units an Infestor is effective against. All of them?
The infestor is seriously a stupid (yet unfortunately necessary) unit in the current state of the game. I literally can't think of a point in a game where a zerg would regret investing in infestors. No matter what Terran composition shows up in your game, having infestors is going to be great.
Edit:
My point being that investing in infestors is always a good choice, whereas investing in ghosts can be a gamble; and this investment is a hidden cost that's hard to measure (unlike mineral/gas/production).
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This ghost or raven talk is pointless anyway, it has nothing to do with the problem.
The problem is, that before the patch, TvZ had reached a point of a very fragile stability. The game was basically so close that skill was all that mattered. It was basically a broodwar matchup, like some fairy blessed the matchup and made all components fit perfectly and give a perfect matchup.
Terran had to do damage early, damage that could be done with just 4 hellions threatening, NOT ATTACKING, just threatening, and delaying the creep by a few minutes, or delaying the 3rd by a few minutes. The zerg could make some roaches to scare or kill those hellions, or lings to try and surround the hellions, the point being that the zerg had to spend larva, minerals, sometime gas, and that was enough for both races to enter the midgame on equal footings.
This is just miraculous that both races found builds that were perfectly balanced in term of setting up the game with safety and efficiency. The stars have to align for such a number of factors be able to produce such a perfect result.
Sometime the terran would allin, sometime the zerg would allin, but this didn't worked often enough to deviate from standard openings, while still allowing mind games.
Using ghosts or ravens won't solve the problem of entering midgame with creep in your natural and 3 bases vs 5 or 6. This patch has destroyed the one beautiful thing that sc2 managed to produce, which was TvZ games.
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On June 23 2012 05:06 Xyik wrote:
Not sure why people would argue against pros about whether or not its easy to emp infestors .. unless you do it consistently yourself who are you to say it is viable? People need to analyze the complete picture before making statements, for example even though a ghost and infestor have a similar resource cost, which unit is easier to replace? To make ghosts, terran has to sacrifice reactors, and the cost of a barracks just to make one unit is half the cost of a hatchery which can produce 3+ units at a time.
If I'm not mistaken so far only KawaiiRice is officially against ghosts.
At the same time we can say that zerg units are weaker so it all comes down to who has the better economy and by how much.
People are also underestimating how much time terran has to accomplish this maneuver. With only 1 range up on the infestor, its not easy to get hits before fungals land. Keep in mind the terran is sieging / unsieging tanks, stimming marines, spreading vs banelings, etc, while zerg mainly just a-moves lings, while microing banes and infestors. Zerg also generally has more map control which makes it hard to do tricky things like flank with ghosts or have superior positioning.
Not to say terrans shouldn't be using ghosts more.
Yeah but there is less ghosts needed than there is infestors so even if 1 or 2 are being fungaled the rest is casting EMPs, assuming they are spread out. it's not hard to spread out up to 4-5 ghosts.
Maybe micro is easier for zerg (by how much? 1 click every 15+ seconds?) but macro for sure isn't - just compare injecting larvae to every hatchery available every 25 energy and spamming mules on one mineral line every 50 energy. And there is also the creep spread.
Maybe tricky flanking with ghosts isn't necessary, maybe EMPing can be done right before engaging in most cases?
On June 23 2012 05:20 spbelky wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 05:06 Xyik wrote:
Not sure why people would argue against pros about whether or not its easy to emp infestors .. unless you do it consistently yourself who are you to say it is viable? People need to analyze the complete picture before making statements, for example even though a ghost and infestor have a similar resource cost, which unit is easier to replace? To make ghosts, terran has to sacrifice reactors, and the cost of a barracks just to make one unit is half the cost of a hatchery which can produce 3+ units at a time.
People are also underestimating how much time terran has to accomplish this maneuver. With only 1 range up on the infestor, its not easy to get hits before fungals land. Keep in mind the terran is sieging / unsieging tanks, stimming marines, spreading vs banelings, etc, while zerg mainly just a-moves lings, while microing banes and infestors. Zerg also generally has more map control which makes it hard to do tricky things like flank with ghosts or have superior positioning.
Not to say terrans shouldn't be using ghosts more. Not to mention, think about what Zerg units a Ghost is actually effective against. One. The infestor (in theory). OK fine, two, but seriously, queen? Now think about what Terran units an Infestor is effective against. All of them? The infestor is seriously a stupid (yet unfortunately necessary) unit in the current state of the game. I literally can't think of a point in a game where a zerg would regret investing in infestors. No matter what Terran composition shows up in your game, having infestors is going to be great. Edit: My point being that investing in infestors is always a good choice, whereas investing in ghosts can be a gamble; and this investment is a hidden cost that's hard to measure (unlike mineral/gas/production).
OK but perhaps with ghost you can render those good against everything infestors useless?
We have to see ghosts in actual gameplay to say how big of gamble is using them and why.
On June 23 2012 05:32 MrCon wrote:
This ghost or raven talk is pointless anyway, it has nothing to do with the problem.
The problem is, that before the patch, TvZ had reached a point of a very fragile stability. The game was basically so close that skill was all that mattered. It was basically a broodwar matchup, like some fairy blessed the matchup and made all components fit perfectly and give a perfect matchup.
Terran had to do damage early, damage that could be done with just 4 hellions threatening, NOT ATTACKING, just threatening, and delaying the creep by a few minutes, or delaying the 3rd by a few minutes. The zerg could make some roaches to scare or kill those hellions, or lings to try and surround the hellions, the point being that the zerg had to spend larva, minerals, sometime gas, and that was enough for both races to enter the midgame on equal footings.
This is just miraculous that both races found builds that were perfectly balanced in term of setting up the game with safety and efficiency. The stars have to align for such a number of factors be able to produce such a perfect result.
Sometime the terran would allin, sometime the zerg would allin, but this didn't worked often enough to deviate from standard openings, while still allowing mind games.
Using ghosts or ravens won't solve the problem of entering midgame with creep in your natural and 3 bases vs 5 or 6. This patch has destroyed the one beautiful thing that sc2 managed to produce, which was TvZ games.
OK, I accept that with no problem, except the OP says about general TvZ problem and not just the queen buff.
People started whining about infestors so ghost was brought up as designed countermeasure. And no pro said so far WHY it's not being used exactly.
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On June 23 2012 05:17 beetlelisk wrote:
Thank you RenSC2 for taking your time to alone think about Ghosts in TvZ.
I'm sorry but this is a thoroughly ridiculous thing to say. So someone who affirms your perspective has taken the time to think about ghosts in TvZ (as you believe you have), but the Terrans you're talking to (including Jinro himself ffs) haven't taken the time to think about ghosts in TvZ? Ridiculous and arrogant.
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oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is.
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On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote:
oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is.
Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end.
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On June 23 2012 08:43 sevencck wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 05:17 beetlelisk wrote:
Thank you RenSC2 for taking your time to alone think about Ghosts in TvZ. I'm sorry but this is a thoroughly ridiculous thing to say. So someone who affirms your perspective has taken the time to think about ghosts in TvZ (as you believe you have), but the Terrans you're talking to (including Jinro himself ffs) haven't taken the time to think about ghosts in TvZ? Ridiculous and arrogant.
Like half of the people I've been discussing with here were disregarding ghosts completely, pros didn't bother posting about ghosts and the only who did - KawaiiRice - also disregarded them without much detail put into his posts.
All Jinro posted about was how possible it is to hit up to 9 infestors with a single EMP.
I still haven't read pros reasoning against the ghosts and saying what is the reason exactly for not using them.
Everything else said between me and other posters here is a speculation.
On June 23 2012 17:01 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote:
oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is. Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end.
Does MVP record his games?
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I don't think ghosts are that viable against infestors unless you catch them alone or wandering the map without detection. And that doesn't seem very likely against a decent opponent. There's too much theorycrafting in this topic IMO
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The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide.
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On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote:
The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide.
There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army.
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On June 24 2012 04:35 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote:
The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide. There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army.
You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage.
What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units.
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On June 23 2012 17:01 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote:
oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is. Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end.
there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs.
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On June 24 2012 04:48 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 04:35 beetlelisk wrote:On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote:
The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide. There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army. You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage. What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units.
Amount of people that whined about infestors earlier in this thread either doesn't make tanks or finds them to be not enough.
I don't think terrans send out units to spot for siege tanks to fully utilize their range and good zergs don't send infestors alone, so most often other zerg units take siege tank shots at about 3/4 of siege tank range. How often siege tanks are manually ordered to shot infestors before they fungal? It also takes 2 siege tank shots to kill an infestor and terran also spends gas on medivacs while zerg can decide if to spend additional gas on banes to support ling infestor, which means there is more gas spent on infestors than tanks in a game, especially counting in bigger number of bases zerg usually has over terran.
What would zerg need overseers for? There are no ghosts so what, late game cloaked banshees? Dropping changelings on tanks? There is also a possibility, maybe low but still, of sniping them with vikings that are needed any way to deal with brood lords.
Casting fungal on cloaked ghosts requires really good awareness of surroundings of zerg army and that's not easy with so many other tasks to do. It's effect can also be minimized by spreading ghosts and choosing terrain that allows for that.
On June 24 2012 04:58 boomudead1 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 23 2012 17:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote:
oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is. Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end. there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs.
Do you know by any chance in which vod exactly is the game? There is almost 6 hours of content from June 22nd.
Oh and his full nickname is LGIMMvp?
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On June 24 2012 06:02 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 04:48 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 24 2012 04:35 beetlelisk wrote:On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote:
The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide. There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army. You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage. What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units. Amount of people that whined about infestors earlier in this thread either doesn't make tanks or finds them to be not enough. I don't think terrans send out units to spot for siege tanks to fully utilize their range and good zergs don't send infestors alone, so most often other zerg units take siege tank shots at about 3/4 of siege tank range. How often siege tanks are manually ordered to shot infestors before they fungal? It also takes 2 siege tank shots to kill an infestor and terran also spends gas on medivacs while zerg can decide if to spend additional gas on banes to support ling infestor, which means there is more gas spent on infestors than tanks in a game, especially counting in bigger number of bases zerg usually has over terran. What would zerg need overseers for? There are no ghosts so what, late game cloaked banshees? Dropping changelings on tanks? There is also a possibility, maybe low but still, of sniping them with vikings that are needed any way to deal with brood lords. Casting fungal on cloaked ghosts requires really good awareness of surroundings of zerg army and that's not easy with so many other tasks to do. It's effect can also be minimized by spreading ghosts and choosing terrain that allows for that. Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 04:58 boomudead1 wrote:On June 23 2012 17:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote:
oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is. Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end. there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs. Do you know by any chance in which vod exactly is the game? There is almost 6 hours of content from June 22nd. Oh and his full nickname is LGIMMvp?
Tanks are the most positioning dependent unit in the game. Well spread, well positioned tanks are unbelievably hard to break through before broodlords or ultras. The problem is people don't target fire the infestors and they don't have detection with their army so burrowed infestors throwing IT everywhere really screws up tank AI. An infestor based army cannot approach a properly positioned tank line unless the zerg army is way bigger or they have ultras or BL. By properly positioned tank line I mean a well spread tank line that isn't susceptible to a massive flank.
Relying on cloaked ghosts to EMP all the infestors won't work for long. Zergs may not make overseers now, but after they lose to cloaked ghosts a few times they will start to make overseers every game.
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Why is there a detailed discussion at all if TvZ is broken atm? If e.g. DeMuslim can beat ForGG (Terran) as Zerg even though he played Zerg only a couple of times, it obviously is broken! This is a very conservative test for imbalance, right? You take top players, have them play off-race and see if they can win against other top-players on their race! And if that can happen at all, the game is so imbalanced it´s not even funny!
Another point I wanted to make is the following: If Blizzard decided today to revert, let´s say, the last 10 patches, would then all the Zergs and Toss who would obviously start complaining the shit out of the forums, would they also be considered balance whiners and QQers? What I want to tell you guys is that people whose only response to reasonable argumentation about balance is to blurt out "BALANCE WHINER! STOP THE QQ!!" are bullies! They´re in a superior position and, for the lack of character and moral, aim to put down good argumentation in order to stay on top!
Along these lines: just recently Avilo (Terran) was denied to participate in a "state of the game" where NO TERRAN WAS PRESENT! If not him, they could and should have invited some other Terran - how can you discuss about the state of the game when not all three races are represented?
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On June 24 2012 08:00 SnipedSoul wrote:Show nested quote +On June 24 2012 06:02 beetlelisk wrote:On June 24 2012 04:48 SnipedSoul wrote:On June 24 2012 04:35 beetlelisk wrote:On June 24 2012 03:51 SnipedSoul wrote:
The problem isn't with ghosts it's how the BL/infestor army works. Ghosts can't get in range of the infestors without being vulnerable to BL attacks. Infestors don't have to worry about siege tanks because once there are more than a handful of BL out having tanks in siege mode is suicide. There a whole mid game before brood lords come in to play though. And ghosts can always be cloaked to safely approach infestor/BL army. You don't need ghosts to deal with infestors before BL are out. Siege tanks are just fine against infestors if they are in siege mode. The problem is that once BL are out you can't have tanks in siege mode or you'll just blow yourself up with splash damage. What zerg doesn't have overseers with their endgame deathball? Overseer detection range is 11 so if one is in or slightly behind your army then cloak is useless. Fungal also reveals cloaked units. Amount of people that whined about infestors earlier in this thread either doesn't make tanks or finds them to be not enough. I don't think terrans send out units to spot for siege tanks to fully utilize their range and good zergs don't send infestors alone, so most often other zerg units take siege tank shots at about 3/4 of siege tank range. How often siege tanks are manually ordered to shot infestors before they fungal? It also takes 2 siege tank shots to kill an infestor and terran also spends gas on medivacs while zerg can decide if to spend additional gas on banes to support ling infestor, which means there is more gas spent on infestors than tanks in a game, especially counting in bigger number of bases zerg usually has over terran. What would zerg need overseers for? There are no ghosts so what, late game cloaked banshees? Dropping changelings on tanks? There is also a possibility, maybe low but still, of sniping them with vikings that are needed any way to deal with brood lords. Casting fungal on cloaked ghosts requires really good awareness of surroundings of zerg army and that's not easy with so many other tasks to do. It's effect can also be minimized by spreading ghosts and choosing terrain that allows for that. On June 24 2012 04:58 boomudead1 wrote:On June 23 2012 17:01 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 23 2012 16:55 boomudead1 wrote:
oh god. just watch mvp streaming rite now. he play god damn well but still lose to zerg. i dont even know how he cud emp infester like how people been saying. too much u gotta do at once already just to stay alive. i cant even think of ways for him to cut resources to invest in some ghost and risking medivacs to snipe infesters. wellmaybe but. a pack of lings can simply overun the army. there just wasnt any infester running around for free emp. he even managed traded well throughout the game and securing the 4th. but BL+Utlsk just rolls him out. u people out there telling terrans to use ghost. might work but really just try to play terran for yourself and see how it is. Saw that game. The Zerg played godawful. He did not snipe infestors because the Zerg sent his first 10 to their death by move-commanding burrowed infestors into a scan+bio ball clearing creep... after that Mvp killed 3 bases, was up 3 base to 2, but still got rolled in the end. there wasnt much use of infester in that mid game because first 10 or so were killed. he managed to drop zerg's 4th but had to pull back cause of all these counters. then wabam 8 or so ultralisk pops out. and that was when mvp lost all his siege and medivacs got fung by 2 or so new infesters forced to just run his rines. zerg eco is too strong even if terran went for fast 3oc build. drops bought him time till late game but not enough. and yeah mvp recorded his game on his stream. but he cud simply get out run by zerg's eco. if he were to cut resources for ghost. didnt even have enough medivacs. Do you know by any chance in which vod exactly is the game? There is almost 6 hours of content from June 22nd. Oh and his full nickname is LGIMMvp? Tanks are the most positioning dependent unit in the game. Well spread, well positioned tanks are unbelievably hard to break through before broodlords or ultras. The problem is people don't target fire the infestors and they don't have detection with their army so burrowed infestors throwing IT everywhere really screws up tank AI. An infestor based army cannot approach a properly positioned tank line unless the zerg army is way bigger or they have ultras or BL. By properly positioned tank line I mean a well spread tank line that isn't susceptible to a massive flank.
I'm not going to argue with that. 
Relying on cloaked ghosts to EMP all the infestors won't work for long. Zergs may not make overseers now, but after they lose to cloaked ghosts a few times they will start to make overseers every game.
I'd like to see those few games first, to see if ghosts are worth the money. And once zergs start to make seers then all that is needed is superior viking count and I guess, EMPing while engaging.
On June 24 2012 08:09 DerBos wrote:
Why is there a detailed discussion at all if TvZ is broken atm? If e.g. DeMuslim can beat ForGG (Terran) as Zerg even though he played Zerg only a couple of times, it obviously is broken! This is a very conservative test for imbalance, right? You take top players, have them play off-race and see if they can win against other top-players on their race! And if that can happen at all, the game is so imbalanced it´s not even funny!
Another point I wanted to make is the following: If Blizzard decided today to revert, let´s say, the last 10 patches, would then all the Zergs and Toss who would obviously start complaining the shit out of the forums, would they also be considered balance whiners and QQers? What I want to tell you guys is that people whose only response to reasonable argumentation about balance is to blurt out "BALANCE WHINER! STOP THE QQ!!" are bullies! They´re in a superior position and, for the lack of character and moral, aim to put down good argumentation in order to stay on top!
Along these lines: just recently Avilo (Terran) was denied to participate in a "state of the game" where NO TERRAN WAS PRESENT! If not him, they could and should have invited some other Terran - how can you discuss about the state of the game when not all three races are represented?
Avilo is known for whining even when terran was favoured in the MU, I guess that's why he wasn't invited. There should be a terran representative though in SotG.
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Kinda hard to get a Terran representative when everyone still behaves like its the beta.
I still see people going "herd derp terran a move" when there isn't a single match up where Terran can actually a move and trade efficiently :p
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EPT
