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On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote:
GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES??
MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
Interesting but it doesnt really solve the BL deathball though. Since this idea revolves around HSM on a fast unit like hellion but the BL has a sick range and will destroy everything before it even get the chance to get close. It might work with a flying unit though but it can still be risky but interesting
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On June 20 2012 02:54 Psychobabas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote:On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:Quote DRG
ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so! Quote MVP
"Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race). "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all. "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything.
" So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease? Quote Supernova
"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken. Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail
Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it.
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On June 20 2012 04:44 galtdunn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:54 Psychobabas wrote:On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote:On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:Quote DRG
ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so! Quote MVP
"Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race). "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all. "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything.
" So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease? Quote Supernova
"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken. Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it.
Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard.
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On June 20 2012 04:12 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 03:51 xTrim wrote:
GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES??
MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
Interesting but it doesnt really solve the BL deathball though. Since this idea revolves around HSM on a fast unit like hellion but the BL has a sick range and will destroy everything before it even get the chance to get close. It might work with a flying unit though but it can still be risky but interesting
brood lords cannot outrun seeker missiles; so no worries.
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On June 20 2012 04:50 imMUTAble787 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:44 galtdunn wrote:On June 20 2012 02:54 Psychobabas wrote:On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote:On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:Quote DRG
ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so! Quote MVP
"Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race). "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all. "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything.
" So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease? Quote Supernova
"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken. Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it. Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard.
You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong.
Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please.
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On June 20 2012 05:16 galtdunn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:50 imMUTAble787 wrote:On June 20 2012 04:44 galtdunn wrote:On June 20 2012 02:54 Psychobabas wrote:On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote:On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:Quote DRG
ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so! Quote MVP
"Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race). "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all. "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything.
" So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease? Quote Supernova
"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken. Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it. Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard. You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong. Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please.
Low masters is total scrub league compared to the calibur of play thats being discussed. When did I ever say that I am better than you ? Nowhere. The only thing I pointed out was that you have no idea what you are talking about, and it is laughable that you would even comment on what code S players have to say about the matchup. Especially when you do so in such a manner that implies you have some insight into it that they themselves have not considered/tried before.
I'm not going to go through and highlight your idiocy piece by piece just so that you can form some circular arguement that goes nowhere. You kind of proved my point when you cited being low masters as some sort of validation to your ramblings.
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ah the balance QQ in this is amazing. TvZ as i see it today
1. zerg favored when zerg gets ahead in economy (thats the way its supposed to be)
2. zerg has map control early to mid game (thats how it always used to be before helions become popular)
3. zerg is ultilizing its entire tech tree (ok minus hydras cause lets be honest current hydras are a joke)
4. zerg is opting to force late game where it is the strongest with infestor play
5. Terran is not utilizing their tech tree to their fullest
6. terran is not exploiting the weakness of infestors
7. Terran havnt evolved the meta game to change with the patch at all levels.
8. ghost are needed to deal with late game zerg how do expect to win agaisnt an army with spell casters without anything designed to handle them
9 terran need to take map control mid-late game hive tech is super slow from zerg
10. terrans win out 99% of low econ games
thats my thoughts i dont know how "balanced" the match up is atm its impossible to say terrans arent adapting to zergs play we have seen many zergs lose to terrans at recent mlg's and gsl its definatly not unwinnable
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On June 20 2012 05:16 galtdunn wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 04:50 imMUTAble787 wrote:On June 20 2012 04:44 galtdunn wrote:On June 20 2012 02:54 Psychobabas wrote:On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote:On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:Quote DRG
ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so! Quote MVP
"Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race). "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all. "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything.
" So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease? Quote Supernova
"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken. Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail Downtalk? As in pretend I know more then they do? I don't and I will never say I do. Nothing I said is unreasonable. People such as every Terran in this thread, protosses, zergs, INCLUDING koreans much of the time think their race is the weakest. And some of those statements are just silly. I commented how I saw it. Just aboud everything you said was unreasonable at best. You clearly lack any sort of thorough understanding on the topic. TL should really open up a subforum that you have to link your bnet account to so that scrubleague theorycraft allstars can only read and not be heard. You aren't explaining what parts are unreasonable. Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong. Also, I'm low masters, no I'm not a complete idiot. Get of your TL "I'm anonymously better than you" high-horse please.
This is a professional SC2 site. I don't believe it's unreasonable to invest credibility in the opinions of professional SC2 players here. If your position is really "Just because you don't agree does not make what I said wrong" then you shouldn't so easily disregard the opinions of several professionals (including arguably one of the top Zergs in the world right now), or imply they are wrong (particularly on a professional SC2 site). I hope you see why this is hypocritical and unreasonable now that (to quote you) the shoe is on the other foot.
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On June 20 2012 05:31 psychotics wrote:
ah the balance QQ in this is amazing. TvZ as i see it today
1. zerg favored when zerg gets ahead in economy (thats the way its supposed to be)
2. zerg has map control early to mid game (thats how it always used to be before helions become popular)
3. zerg is ultilizing its entire tech tree (ok minus hydras cause lets be honest current hydras are a joke)
4. zerg is opting to force late game where it is the strongest with infestor play
5. Terran is not utilizing their tech tree to their fullest
6. terran is not exploiting the weakness of infestors
7. Terran havnt evolved the meta game to change with the patch at all levels.
8. ghost are needed to deal with late game zerg how do expect to win agaisnt an army with spell casters without anything designed to handle them
9 terran need to take map control mid-late game hive tech is super slow from zerg
10. terrans win out 99% of low econ games
thats my thoughts i dont know how "balanced" the match up is atm its impossible to say terrans arent adapting to zergs play we have seen many zergs lose to terrans at recent mlg's and gsl its definatly not unwinnable
1. The matchup is zerg favoured when both players have the same economy. This is because infestor ling is much more cost efficiënt then muta ling bling.
2. Yes, true, and I don't see the point you are trying to make.
3. Zergs use their entire tech tree indeed. Every unit besides the hydra is viable. Good for zergs.
4. Zergs are not only aiming for the lategame. You should watch tournaments. Zergs are roach ling bling busting their opponents hard, and with success. They are also 2 base ling bling busting, also with success. Then there are midgame timings which zergs exploit too. My point: zergs have early, mid and late game strenghts atm.
5. Terrans are damn hard utilizing their tech tree to their fullest. The sad thing is that a lot of tech is just not viable.
- battlecruisers are a joke (the combination of corruptor infestor is amazing against it)
- ravens need 125 energy for 1 hsm. You need 2 hsm's to kill 1 broodlord (unless they clump up = zerg mistake). You lose your raven if it casts hsm.
- ghosts are only good at emping / sniping infestors, and every terran knows how impossible it is to emp / snipe even half of the infestors
6. Terrans do exploit the weakness of the infestor. They use marauders to target fire them. They spread out. What else are they supposed to do?
7. There is no evolving possible. Terrans are limited by their buildorders, because of possible zerg allins. Terrans are limited by unit compositions, because very few compositions are okay against zerg (see how I wrote okay: you still need a ton of micro, and even then it's hard to trade cost efficiënt). There is not much to explore. Do you really think terran progamers need so long to figure out the sollutions?
8. Ghosts are indeed needed against infestors, but they are not game winning. You will have opportunities to snipe / emp some infestors, but at the end some fungals will go off, and you die.
9. That's the whole problem: terran try to take mapcontrol, but infestors are so damn good at defending, that by the time the terran killed 1 hatchery, hive is done. The terran will be forced to retreat. The zerg will take more bases. And then what? Imagine the zerg went broodlord infestor. I never saw a terran unit composition that trades cost efficiently with this (expect clumped up broodlords vs mass raven with hsm).
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+ Show Spoiler +On June 20 2012 06:02 Snowbear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 05:31 psychotics wrote:
ah the balance QQ in this is amazing. TvZ as i see it today
1. zerg favored when zerg gets ahead in economy (thats the way its supposed to be)
2. zerg has map control early to mid game (thats how it always used to be before helions become popular)
3. zerg is ultilizing its entire tech tree (ok minus hydras cause lets be honest current hydras are a joke)
4. zerg is opting to force late game where it is the strongest with infestor play
5. Terran is not utilizing their tech tree to their fullest
6. terran is not exploiting the weakness of infestors
7. Terran havnt evolved the meta game to change with the patch at all levels.
8. ghost are needed to deal with late game zerg how do expect to win agaisnt an army with spell casters without anything designed to handle them
9 terran need to take map control mid-late game hive tech is super slow from zerg
10. terrans win out 99% of low econ games
thats my thoughts i dont know how "balanced" the match up is atm its impossible to say terrans arent adapting to zergs play we have seen many zergs lose to terrans at recent mlg's and gsl its definatly not unwinnable 1. The matchup is zerg favoured when both players have the same economy. This is because infestor ling is much more cost efficiënt then muta ling bling. 2. Yes, true, and I don't see the point you are trying to make. 3. Zergs use their entire tech tree indeed. Every unit besides the hydra is viable. Good for zergs. 4. Zergs are not only aiming for the lategame. You should watch tournaments. Zergs are roach ling bling busting their opponents hard, and with success. They are also 2 base ling bling busting, also with success. Then there are midgame timings which zergs exploit too. My point: zergs have early, mid and late game strenghts atm. 5. Terrans are damn hard utilizing their tech tree to their fullest. The sad thing is that a lot of tech is just not viable. - battlecruisers are a joke (the combination of corruptor infestor is amazing against it) - ravens need 125 energy for 1 hsm. You need 2 hsm's to kill 1 broodlord (unless they clump up = zerg mistake). You lose your raven if it casts hsm. - ghosts are only good at emping / sniping infestors, and every terran knows how impossible it is to emp / snipe even half of the infestors 6. Terrans do exploit the weakness of the infestor. They use marauders to target fire them. They spread out. What else are they supposed to do? 7. There is no evolving possible. Terrans are limited by their buildorders, because of possible zerg allins. Terrans are limited by unit compositions, because very few compositions are okay against zerg (see how I wrote okay: you still need a ton of micro, and even then it's hard to trade cost efficiënt). There is not much to explore. Do you really think terran progamers need so long to figure out the sollutions? 8. Ghosts are indeed needed against infestors, but they are not game winning. You will have opportunities to snipe / emp some infestors, but at the end some fungals will go off, and you die. 9. That's the whole problem: terran try to take mapcontrol, but infestors are so damn good at defending, that by the time the terran killed 1 hatchery, hive is done. The terran will be forced to retreat. The zerg will take more bases. And then what? Imagine the zerg went broodlord infestor. I never saw a terran unit composition that trades cost efficiently with this (expect clumped up broodlords vs mass raven with hsm).
My point is terran has options ghost deal with infestors Ravens help with the air v air battle (PDD not HSM although sure if u get one off great but PDD is better all around) i have watched probally more tournaments then u have haha been watching almost every major tournament since opens season 1 of GSL. terran has an advantage mid game against infestor play. ive seen many tournaments where 1 medvac drop just wins the terran the game vs zerg. ghost should be used to snipe the infestors not mauraders is my point. sure early in the game use small groups of units to try and snag a infestor but once u get past 3 bases u really should add ghost if u are facing infestor play.
Terrans are limited by their build orders true but not because of possible allins any more then all the other races. terrans are in my opinion to set in their ways and until they start adapting to the changes they will have trouble. look at the evolution of zergs play from open season 1 till now its not much different then how terrans are now. they need to change their ways to deal with things or they need to wait for a patch/HotS lol just my thoughts. terran play is too stagnant at the moment and needs someone to come along and re-inspire them
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But Terrans arent using their full tech tree!
Transition to air!
Make ravens!
Micro better!
.....lol..... :/
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On June 19 2012 09:48 EienShinwa wrote:
Holy Fucking shi- now you're just giving out fucking excuses in the form of asking for empirical evidence. You're LITERALLY grabbing at straws at this point. You've been theorycrafting this entire time and yet when someone tries to prove you wrong, you simply cry "show me a vod". There were many things in your response that made me scoff in disbelief at how ignorant or unknowing you are in TvZ, but I'll focus on the major ones that irked me.
If the current state of zerg being favoured over terran is so prevalent then it should not be a problem to illustrate a point of view with evidence. Especially when I'm asking KawaiiRice that plays each day and thus has dozens of replays to give.
Show nested quote +That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away. Think about it. WHAT fucking zerg will let a terran let a raven let alone ravens near enough their army to release flying bombs that move at 0.5 speed with a shitty range? Are you that desperate to defend your claim that ravens have potential, that you actually believe a zerg will let ravens near their masses of lings, ultras, infestors, etc?
Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM.
BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves.
Show nested quote +
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
I don't know if you actually tried EMPing fucking anything, but in SCII, units move, believe it or not. And Zerg moves the fucking fastest. It's hard enough to try and emp Protoss while they are moving around and not lose ghosts uselessly, but Zerg? The major problem here is the amount of DPS that SCII units do. As a result of this, trying to emp infestors behind enemy lines is not worth the risk the rewards may bring. Even if you EMP the infestors, it doesn't mean you can kill all the cracklings + ultras + banelings, or kill all the cracklings+banelings+broodlords. To say that you can EMP or snipe any amount of infestors while zerglings move at the speed of light and fungal will instantly catch ghosts is easier said than done. It's fucking near impossible. Ever try EMPing the Protoss army before engagement? Because units move so fucking fast, the skill to accurately EMP units on target due to the fact that EMP is a projectile is incredibly difficult. This is an excuse, yes, but I hope you know how hard it is to EMP on constantly moving units when your ghosts are fucking slow as shit. You don't even know half of it if you haven't played Terran before.
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that.
What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
Show nested quote +I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier. Do you know why people use tanks at all? Tanks believe it or not, still are effective in TvZ until broodlords. And they can actually, you know, kill shit while the only use for ghosts is to EMP infestors. Now think about this, commit a large amount of resources for the CHANCE, a fucking CHANCE, to not even kill but EMP infestors or have tanks that GUARANTEE some kills, whether this be target firing infestors, killing masses of lings, or barraging utralisks.
There is no need to commit large amount of resources to take care of infestors. If tanks would as good as you are saying then there wouldn't be people here whining about fungal being op.
Show nested quote +Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too. I hope you're trolling or your ability to make any sort of claims go right out the fucking window.
You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word?
Show nested quote +I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP. I don't think you understand this from a Terran perspective. Making ghosts in TvZ is not a credible option, it's a fucking risk. You aren't guaranteed to EMP ANY infestors let alone kill them with ghosts. And to get all the upgrades necessary is a HUGE risk you are taking just to take care of infestors. Getting those ghosts leaves you in a do-or-die situation. You can get those magical EMPs that get EVERY SINGLE infestor, or you miss one or two and get steamrolled, because you spent your resources on those ghosts that could have gone to extra marines, marauders, medivacs, tanks, etc. And even if you EMP every infestor, that doesn't guarantee jack shit - he can still have more units than you because you stupidly spent all that money on ghosts.
You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part.
On June 20 2012 00:37 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 08:45 beetlelisk wrote:On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:On June 19 2012 07:05 beetlelisk wrote:On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws. Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not? Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily. I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that. Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. I haven't ever said to snipe and I don't see how it's ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors. All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, You haven't proven anything. [the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding. Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane. Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane. It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game? I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win. There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct. Why would I build such an expensive, slow unit that I have to upgrade the HSM and wait till it has 125 energy just to shot a HSM missle at the fastest unit in the game (lings) and banelings and mutas? There is no way that the HSM will hit lings, mutas, or bane before they die. There is also a delay on the animation before it starts accelerating and during this animation, the raven is unable to move and this is usually when they die. Dont forget that by firing your HSM close, it will also have the potetntial to kill the raven and without a high raven count....raven are not that good. It to much of a risk....it like saying, you should take your infestor and go infront of a marine bio army and then fungal them so they cant run away from you (a bit over exaggerated though) The AOE on fungal is like 4-5 EMP. It is also instant.....pretty damn hard to split your ghost and from what i remember, fungal has a bigger range then emp too.
During the HSM animation of accelerating raven is unable to move? What are you talking about?
HSM can't kill a raven because raven has 140 hit points and HSM deals up to 100 damage and raven by standing at the edge of explosion would definitely take way less damage.
The radius of fungal is 2 and EMP's is 1,5. This means aoe of fungal is less than 2 EMPs.
I don't know what is hard about splitting 3 to 5 ghosts.
EMP's range is 10, Fungal's is 9.
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On June 20 2012 08:29 beetlelisk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2012 09:48 EienShinwa wrote:
Holy Fucking shi- now you're just giving out fucking excuses in the form of asking for empirical evidence. You're LITERALLY grabbing at straws at this point. You've been theorycrafting this entire time and yet when someone tries to prove you wrong, you simply cry "show me a vod". There were many things in your response that made me scoff in disbelief at how ignorant or unknowing you are in TvZ, but I'll focus on the major ones that irked me. If the current state of zerg being favoured over terran is so prevalent then it should not be a problem to illustrate a point of view with evidence. Especially when I'm asking KawaiiRice that plays each day and thus has dozens of replays to give. Show nested quote +That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away. Think about it. WHAT fucking zerg will let a terran let a raven let alone ravens near enough their army to release flying bombs that move at 0.5 speed with a shitty range? Are you that desperate to defend your claim that ravens have potential, that you actually believe a zerg will let ravens near their masses of lings, ultras, infestors, etc? Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM. BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves. Show nested quote +
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
I don't know if you actually tried EMPing fucking anything, but in SCII, units move, believe it or not. And Zerg moves the fucking fastest. It's hard enough to try and emp Protoss while they are moving around and not lose ghosts uselessly, but Zerg? The major problem here is the amount of DPS that SCII units do. As a result of this, trying to emp infestors behind enemy lines is not worth the risk the rewards may bring. Even if you EMP the infestors, it doesn't mean you can kill all the cracklings + ultras + banelings, or kill all the cracklings+banelings+broodlords. To say that you can EMP or snipe any amount of infestors while zerglings move at the speed of light and fungal will instantly catch ghosts is easier said than done. It's fucking near impossible. Ever try EMPing the Protoss army before engagement? Because units move so fucking fast, the skill to accurately EMP units on target due to the fact that EMP is a projectile is incredibly difficult. This is an excuse, yes, but I hope you know how hard it is to EMP on constantly moving units when your ghosts are fucking slow as shit. You don't even know half of it if you haven't played Terran before. I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period. Show nested quote +I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier. Do you know why people use tanks at all? Tanks believe it or not, still are effective in TvZ until broodlords. And they can actually, you know, kill shit while the only use for ghosts is to EMP infestors. Now think about this, commit a large amount of resources for the CHANCE, a fucking CHANCE, to not even kill but EMP infestors or have tanks that GUARANTEE some kills, whether this be target firing infestors, killing masses of lings, or barraging utralisks. There is no need to commit large amount of resources to take care of infestors. If tanks would as good as you are saying then there wouldn't be people here whining about fungal being op. Show nested quote +Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too. I hope you're trolling or your ability to make any sort of claims go right out the fucking window. You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word? Show nested quote +I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP. I don't think you understand this from a Terran perspective. Making ghosts in TvZ is not a credible option, it's a fucking risk. You aren't guaranteed to EMP ANY infestors let alone kill them with ghosts. And to get all the upgrades necessary is a HUGE risk you are taking just to take care of infestors. Getting those ghosts leaves you in a do-or-die situation. You can get those magical EMPs that get EVERY SINGLE infestor, or you miss one or two and get steamrolled, because you spent your resources on those ghosts that could have gone to extra marines, marauders, medivacs, tanks, etc. And even if you EMP every infestor, that doesn't guarantee jack shit - he can still have more units than you because you stupidly spent all that money on ghosts. You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part. On June 20 2012 00:37 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 08:45 beetlelisk wrote:On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:On June 19 2012 07:05 beetlelisk wrote:On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws. Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not? Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily. I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that. Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. I haven't ever said to snipe and I don't see how it's ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors. All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, You haven't proven anything. [the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding. Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane. Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane. It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game? I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win. There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct. Why would I build such an expensive, slow unit that I have to upgrade the HSM and wait till it has 125 energy just to shot a HSM missle at the fastest unit in the game (lings) and banelings and mutas? There is no way that the HSM will hit lings, mutas, or bane before they die. There is also a delay on the animation before it starts accelerating and during this animation, the raven is unable to move and this is usually when they die. Dont forget that by firing your HSM close, it will also have the potetntial to kill the raven and without a high raven count....raven are not that good. It to much of a risk....it like saying, you should take your infestor and go infront of a marine bio army and then fungal them so they cant run away from you (a bit over exaggerated though) The AOE on fungal is like 4-5 EMP. It is also instant.....pretty damn hard to split your ghost and from what i remember, fungal has a bigger range then emp too. During the HSM animation of accelerating raven is unable to move? What are you talking about? HSM can't kill a raven because raven has 140 hit points and HSM deals up to 100 damage and raven by standing at the edge of explosion would definitely take way less damage. The radius of fungal is 2 and EMP's is 1,5. This means aoe of fungal is less than 2 EMPs. I don't know what is hard about splitting 3 to 5 ghosts. EMP's range is 10, Fungal's is 9.
I'll bite on a few of those points.
I like working off empirical evidence, it's generally the best way to go. There are exceptions though, such as when one is unable to analyze said data. In this case, one needs to trust the people that are able to do so. If you analyze a replay of a pro and a pro analyzes the replay, I trust the pro. What you want to do is have pro players provide the replays they analyze for you to scrutinize. But people do not accept your ability to analyze them, and thus it does not make sense to ask that. In fact, it's somewhat insulting to question the analysis of a pro from your perspective. And this made people upset.
Yet, here's something. Ravens were used in the games between Symbol and MKP, you could analyze those for us and see whether that creates discussion.
On another other point:
Ravens dying because they are immobile while they cast HSM - they do not die to the HSM itself, but get killed because they cannot run away from the Z forces about to kill them.
I'll leave the actual gameplay analysis to the many pros/better players than I.
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On June 20 2012 08:43 Ghanburighan wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 08:29 beetlelisk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2012 09:48 EienShinwa wrote:
Holy Fucking shi- now you're just giving out fucking excuses in the form of asking for empirical evidence. You're LITERALLY grabbing at straws at this point. You've been theorycrafting this entire time and yet when someone tries to prove you wrong, you simply cry "show me a vod". There were many things in your response that made me scoff in disbelief at how ignorant or unknowing you are in TvZ, but I'll focus on the major ones that irked me. If the current state of zerg being favoured over terran is so prevalent then it should not be a problem to illustrate a point of view with evidence. Especially when I'm asking KawaiiRice that plays each day and thus has dozens of replays to give. Show nested quote +That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away. Think about it. WHAT fucking zerg will let a terran let a raven let alone ravens near enough their army to release flying bombs that move at 0.5 speed with a shitty range? Are you that desperate to defend your claim that ravens have potential, that you actually believe a zerg will let ravens near their masses of lings, ultras, infestors, etc? Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM. BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves. Show nested quote +
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
I don't know if you actually tried EMPing fucking anything, but in SCII, units move, believe it or not. And Zerg moves the fucking fastest. It's hard enough to try and emp Protoss while they are moving around and not lose ghosts uselessly, but Zerg? The major problem here is the amount of DPS that SCII units do. As a result of this, trying to emp infestors behind enemy lines is not worth the risk the rewards may bring. Even if you EMP the infestors, it doesn't mean you can kill all the cracklings + ultras + banelings, or kill all the cracklings+banelings+broodlords. To say that you can EMP or snipe any amount of infestors while zerglings move at the speed of light and fungal will instantly catch ghosts is easier said than done. It's fucking near impossible. Ever try EMPing the Protoss army before engagement? Because units move so fucking fast, the skill to accurately EMP units on target due to the fact that EMP is a projectile is incredibly difficult. This is an excuse, yes, but I hope you know how hard it is to EMP on constantly moving units when your ghosts are fucking slow as shit. You don't even know half of it if you haven't played Terran before. I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period. Show nested quote +I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier. Do you know why people use tanks at all? Tanks believe it or not, still are effective in TvZ until broodlords. And they can actually, you know, kill shit while the only use for ghosts is to EMP infestors. Now think about this, commit a large amount of resources for the CHANCE, a fucking CHANCE, to not even kill but EMP infestors or have tanks that GUARANTEE some kills, whether this be target firing infestors, killing masses of lings, or barraging utralisks. There is no need to commit large amount of resources to take care of infestors. If tanks would as good as you are saying then there wouldn't be people here whining about fungal being op. Show nested quote +Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too. I hope you're trolling or your ability to make any sort of claims go right out the fucking window. You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word? Show nested quote +I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP. I don't think you understand this from a Terran perspective. Making ghosts in TvZ is not a credible option, it's a fucking risk. You aren't guaranteed to EMP ANY infestors let alone kill them with ghosts. And to get all the upgrades necessary is a HUGE risk you are taking just to take care of infestors. Getting those ghosts leaves you in a do-or-die situation. You can get those magical EMPs that get EVERY SINGLE infestor, or you miss one or two and get steamrolled, because you spent your resources on those ghosts that could have gone to extra marines, marauders, medivacs, tanks, etc. And even if you EMP every infestor, that doesn't guarantee jack shit - he can still have more units than you because you stupidly spent all that money on ghosts. You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part. On June 20 2012 00:37 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 08:45 beetlelisk wrote:On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:On June 19 2012 07:05 beetlelisk wrote:On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws. Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not? Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily. I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that. Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. I haven't ever said to snipe and I don't see how it's ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors. All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, You haven't proven anything. [the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding. Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane. Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane. It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game? I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win. There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct. Why would I build such an expensive, slow unit that I have to upgrade the HSM and wait till it has 125 energy just to shot a HSM missle at the fastest unit in the game (lings) and banelings and mutas? There is no way that the HSM will hit lings, mutas, or bane before they die. There is also a delay on the animation before it starts accelerating and during this animation, the raven is unable to move and this is usually when they die. Dont forget that by firing your HSM close, it will also have the potetntial to kill the raven and without a high raven count....raven are not that good. It to much of a risk....it like saying, you should take your infestor and go infront of a marine bio army and then fungal them so they cant run away from you (a bit over exaggerated though) The AOE on fungal is like 4-5 EMP. It is also instant.....pretty damn hard to split your ghost and from what i remember, fungal has a bigger range then emp too. During the HSM animation of accelerating raven is unable to move? What are you talking about? HSM can't kill a raven because raven has 140 hit points and HSM deals up to 100 damage and raven by standing at the edge of explosion would definitely take way less damage. The radius of fungal is 2 and EMP's is 1,5. This means aoe of fungal is less than 2 EMPs. I don't know what is hard about splitting 3 to 5 ghosts. EMP's range is 10, Fungal's is 9. I'll bite on a few of those points. I like working off empirical evidence, it's generally the best way to go. There are exceptions though, such as when one is unable to analyze said data. In this case, one needs to trust the people that are able to do so. If you analyze a replay of a pro and a pro analyzes the replay, I trust the pro. What you want to do is have pro players provide the replays they analyze for you to scrutinize. But people do not accept your ability to analyze them, and thus it does not make sense to ask that. In fact, it's somewhat insulting to question the analysis of a pro from your perspective. And this made people upset.
All I did was ask for replays, since that hasn't happened I wasn't able to disagree with a pro's or anybody's analysis.
Yet, here's something. Ravens were used in the games between Symbol and MKP, you could analyze those for us and see whether that creates discussion.
On another other point:
Ravens dying because they are immobile while they cast HSM - they do not die to the HSM itself, but get killed because they cannot run away from the Z forces about to kill them.
I'll leave the actual gameplay analysis to the many pros/better players than I.
If you could give me a link to the game I would be very grateful. The only thing used that can kill a raven in a tvz is corruptors and this means terran didn't have enough vikings to protect ravens.
edit: it's 2AM so I'm going to sleep, see you guys tomorrow.
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On June 20 2012 09:01 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 08:43 Ghanburighan wrote:On June 20 2012 08:29 beetlelisk wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2012 09:48 EienShinwa wrote:
Holy Fucking shi- now you're just giving out fucking excuses in the form of asking for empirical evidence. You're LITERALLY grabbing at straws at this point. You've been theorycrafting this entire time and yet when someone tries to prove you wrong, you simply cry "show me a vod". There were many things in your response that made me scoff in disbelief at how ignorant or unknowing you are in TvZ, but I'll focus on the major ones that irked me. If the current state of zerg being favoured over terran is so prevalent then it should not be a problem to illustrate a point of view with evidence. Especially when I'm asking KawaiiRice that plays each day and thus has dozens of replays to give. Show nested quote +That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away. Think about it. WHAT fucking zerg will let a terran let a raven let alone ravens near enough their army to release flying bombs that move at 0.5 speed with a shitty range? Are you that desperate to defend your claim that ravens have potential, that you actually believe a zerg will let ravens near their masses of lings, ultras, infestors, etc? Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM. BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves. Show nested quote +
Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane.
I don't know if you actually tried EMPing fucking anything, but in SCII, units move, believe it or not. And Zerg moves the fucking fastest. It's hard enough to try and emp Protoss while they are moving around and not lose ghosts uselessly, but Zerg? The major problem here is the amount of DPS that SCII units do. As a result of this, trying to emp infestors behind enemy lines is not worth the risk the rewards may bring. Even if you EMP the infestors, it doesn't mean you can kill all the cracklings + ultras + banelings, or kill all the cracklings+banelings+broodlords. To say that you can EMP or snipe any amount of infestors while zerglings move at the speed of light and fungal will instantly catch ghosts is easier said than done. It's fucking near impossible. Ever try EMPing the Protoss army before engagement? Because units move so fucking fast, the skill to accurately EMP units on target due to the fact that EMP is a projectile is incredibly difficult. This is an excuse, yes, but I hope you know how hard it is to EMP on constantly moving units when your ghosts are fucking slow as shit. You don't even know half of it if you haven't played Terran before. I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period. Show nested quote +I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier. Do you know why people use tanks at all? Tanks believe it or not, still are effective in TvZ until broodlords. And they can actually, you know, kill shit while the only use for ghosts is to EMP infestors. Now think about this, commit a large amount of resources for the CHANCE, a fucking CHANCE, to not even kill but EMP infestors or have tanks that GUARANTEE some kills, whether this be target firing infestors, killing masses of lings, or barraging utralisks. There is no need to commit large amount of resources to take care of infestors. If tanks would as good as you are saying then there wouldn't be people here whining about fungal being op. Show nested quote +Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too. I hope you're trolling or your ability to make any sort of claims go right out the fucking window. You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word? Show nested quote +I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP. I don't think you understand this from a Terran perspective. Making ghosts in TvZ is not a credible option, it's a fucking risk. You aren't guaranteed to EMP ANY infestors let alone kill them with ghosts. And to get all the upgrades necessary is a HUGE risk you are taking just to take care of infestors. Getting those ghosts leaves you in a do-or-die situation. You can get those magical EMPs that get EVERY SINGLE infestor, or you miss one or two and get steamrolled, because you spent your resources on those ghosts that could have gone to extra marines, marauders, medivacs, tanks, etc. And even if you EMP every infestor, that doesn't guarantee jack shit - he can still have more units than you because you stupidly spent all that money on ghosts. You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part. On June 20 2012 00:37 SheaR619 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 08:45 beetlelisk wrote:On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:On June 19 2012 07:05 beetlelisk wrote:On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws. Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not? Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily. I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that. Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. I haven't ever said to snipe and I don't see how it's ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors. All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, You haven't proven anything. [the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding. Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane. Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane. It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game? I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier.
Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win. There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct. Why would I build such an expensive, slow unit that I have to upgrade the HSM and wait till it has 125 energy just to shot a HSM missle at the fastest unit in the game (lings) and banelings and mutas? There is no way that the HSM will hit lings, mutas, or bane before they die. There is also a delay on the animation before it starts accelerating and during this animation, the raven is unable to move and this is usually when they die. Dont forget that by firing your HSM close, it will also have the potetntial to kill the raven and without a high raven count....raven are not that good. It to much of a risk....it like saying, you should take your infestor and go infront of a marine bio army and then fungal them so they cant run away from you (a bit over exaggerated though) The AOE on fungal is like 4-5 EMP. It is also instant.....pretty damn hard to split your ghost and from what i remember, fungal has a bigger range then emp too. During the HSM animation of accelerating raven is unable to move? What are you talking about? HSM can't kill a raven because raven has 140 hit points and HSM deals up to 100 damage and raven by standing at the edge of explosion would definitely take way less damage. The radius of fungal is 2 and EMP's is 1,5. This means aoe of fungal is less than 2 EMPs. I don't know what is hard about splitting 3 to 5 ghosts. EMP's range is 10, Fungal's is 9. I'll bite on a few of those points. I like working off empirical evidence, it's generally the best way to go. There are exceptions though, such as when one is unable to analyze said data. In this case, one needs to trust the people that are able to do so. If you analyze a replay of a pro and a pro analyzes the replay, I trust the pro. What you want to do is have pro players provide the replays they analyze for you to scrutinize. But people do not accept your ability to analyze them, and thus it does not make sense to ask that. In fact, it's somewhat insulting to question the analysis of a pro from your perspective. And this made people upset. All I did was ask for replays, since that hasn't happened I wasn't able to disagree with a pro's or anybody's analysis. Show nested quote +Yet, here's something. Ravens were used in the games between Symbol and MKP, you could analyze those for us and see whether that creates discussion.
On another other point:
Ravens dying because they are immobile while they cast HSM - they do not die to the HSM itself, but get killed because they cannot run away from the Z forces about to kill them.
I'll leave the actual gameplay analysis to the many pros/better players than I. If you could give me a link to the game I would be very grateful. The only thing used that can kill a raven in a tvz is corruptors and this means terran didn't have enough vikings to protect ravens. edit: it's 2AM so I'm going to sleep, see you guys tomorrow.
There a small delay when the HSM come out of the Raven, the raven cant move. No zerg going to watch you fly your raven on top of his army with such a slow unit and let you do such thing. He can just magic box mutas and your raven useless. Going raven isnt a good idea in general because if they have infestor or mutas and you miss control them, then you just lost your raven count and then your pretty much screwed. Raven can be powerful if the number get high but any zerg with a brain will shut it down with ease. Watch MKP vs Symbol like someone said, it show how raven are kinda bad
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I think zerg macro is really scary. I think the queen range buff is fine since winning tvz with some all in can be boring and just stupid. But Zerg could have some nerfs.. :D
1. Infestor fungal could use a nerf tbh. It's an all purpose spell that basically kills everything. If it immobilizes and damages the unit until 1 hp (but does not actually kill the unit), it would make more sense...
2. As mentioned in Genius' interview, spawning 3 larva with queen inject would be nice, but with an upgrade from evo chamber for the queen to spawn 5 larva (the default one now).
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On June 20 2012 11:08 stalife wrote:
I think zerg macro is really scary. I think the queen range buff is fine since winning tvz with some all in can be boring and just stupid. But Zerg could have some nerfs.. :D
1. Infestor fungal could use a nerf tbh. It's an all purpose spell that basically kills everything. If it immobilizes and damages the unit until 1 hp (but does not actually kill the unit), it would make more sense...
I think Terrans would be fine it it kills units and does the same damage, but just slows units down by the same magnitude as conc shells instead of immobilizing (50%). That way, players with good reaction times and micro can still spread their units and mitigate the followup fungals.
Edit: Or, keep the same damage and immobilization, but speed boosting abilities such as blink, stim, and charge can break the root (fungal still does the same DOT after being broken, of course). Btw, seems like it would be natural for a concept like this to appear in a post-WoW Blizzard game, since WoW was full of this kind of shit.
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Zerg can't run away from Ravens forever, in fact it would silly to see whole zerg army running away after seeing like one incoming raven. You just agreed ravens have the power necessary to make them cost efficient, even taking into account the need to wait until 125 energy and 2 upgrades - energy and HSM.
BTW who said it's the ravens that have to try to fly close enough? Zerg can also be the attacker and in that case units get close enough by themselves.
Did you really just say that? Did you really say that Zerg will eventually force a fight when it's known that Terran MUST be on the aggression to be equal to Zerg? How can you even say that if you play ZvT? I think you're ridiculous for thinking that a Zerg WOULDN'T run his army from HSM. But the thing is, they will You know why? From a competent Zerg standpoint, you will just get more bases and eventually just steamroll him. There's no need for a Zerg to attack. If you think a Zerg will attack with a "Fuck it" attitude into a terran army with a group of ravens over it, you are either playing at Bronze level or fucking retarded. When the hell did I agree ravens have the potential to be cost efficient? Are you twisting my words?
I don't have to play terran to see how fast the EMP is. And it hits instantaneously, most definitely fast enough to not make it a problem against other races' casters that are also slow. I have already written about it to someone else so I have to repeat myself - approach the Infestors from the place where there is not as many other zerg units between ghosts and infestors to make the EMPing safer. There is always a spare medivac or 2 to help with that. What's the point in saying ghost can't kill units it wasn't designed to kill? It's an anti caster unit, period.
The point I was trying to make might be hard for a Zerg player to understand how hard it is to actually get perfect EMPs, but I'll try. When you are trying to EMP units, your ghosts and his energy units are constantly moving around. As you select a spot to EMP, your enemy units are still moving. What you have to do is guess where his moving units will go and EMP that location, because the EMP is a fucking projectile.Because EMP is a projectile, you have a delay from the time you select the area to be EMP'd and the EMP itself. It's hard to explain to a Zerg who gets EZPZ instant fungal hits. I recommend you try EMPing something on the unit tester and you'll understand what I mean. Oh, and your advice is absolute dog shit. It doesn't even make sense. It's like me telling you to use overlords to place infestors in strategic locations where the Terran army is not at so you can get fungals. No, fuck you. It shouldn't be that much more harder for us just to have a CHANCE at EMPing your infestors while you just drag your infestors along behind your army. I'm just astonished at how stupidly you're trying to make ghosts look effective in TvZ. Ghosts aren't anti-spellcaster units. They ARE spellcaster units, holy shit. How fucking stupid would it be if the only use for ghosts is a counter. They should have an offensive capability, because they are FUCKING SPELLCASTERS LIKE YOUR INFESTORS. Jesus.
You are definitely not making any sense here. Do you know what word instantaneously means? Maybe you meant something different but used a wrong word?
I was hoping you wouldn't take it literally, but to many Terrans, Zerg and Protoss macro seems pretty instantaneous compared to our macro. I also guess you don't know what a hyperbole is. For Protoss, you can warp in x amount of units for x amount of warp gates almost instantly. ANYWHERE you have a pylon. Fucking anywhere. For Zerg, you can click sz on your hatcheries and hold it down for 3 seconds. Then u get x amount of larva used times 2 amount of zerglings instantly once they hatch. For us, they pop out one at a time from the barracks, factory, starport, or command center. One. at a fucking time.
You aren't talking from a perspective of a competent terran player, you are talking from a perspective a whiner and your claim is a blown out of proportion whine. I strongly believe you simply gave up on using ghosts after few fails when using them which were a result of mistakes or wrong conclusions on your part.
Do you see how your confirmation bias already makes all my points invalid to you? You think I'm just whining when I'm explaining to you the flaws in your opinions and suggestions. Why do you not even consider to take in what I say and just regurgitate your shit that every single person in this thread is saying "shut the fuck up" to? Why can't you even consider to see this from the Terran perspective instead of the Zerg's? I know you don't want to get nerfed or Terran to get buffed, but the things you say just make you sound fucking ignorant. And also, even though you ask for vods while ignoring the opinions of all pros who SAY that TvZ is imbalanced, why do you try to pin an anecdotal accusation in my face? Why do you care about my experiences in failure when you ignore the anecdotal opinions of so many more qualified progamers? Why are you such a fucking hypocrite? And fyi, you aren't even Terran. Please don't talk to me about taking it from a "competent terran's perspective" when you aren't even trying to see it from our perspective. I'd think you'd say the same thing if I did it to you about Zerg.
All that being said, Terran players have a right to bitch,moan, and complain about until this shit gets fixed. Protoss did it, Zerg certainly did it, and we sure as fucking hell should be able to as well without getting a backlash from the other races saying that the game is balanced and there should be no buffs or nerfs. Fuck that mentality. Change is progress and inevitable like you said. Terran players have been trying much harder than Zerg or Protoss to find new ingenious ways to play because of everything that happened. And yet you still have the balls to bitch about us bitching. This game is still a balance in progress. Like you said, change is inevitable.
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and dont forget the other shit use of OP infestors, ''terran having siege tanks ? NP im just gona burrow my infestors and drop shit loads of infested terrans around em and then im gona A=move my maggot army in and fap while i see terran's army melting'' (im terran btw  )
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EPT
