EPT-Every competent Terran/Zerg player
TvZ is a joke currently - Page 16
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ROOTIllusion
United States1060 Posts
-Every competent Terran/Zerg player | ||
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galtdunn
United States977 Posts
Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so! Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race). "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all. "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. " So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease? Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken. | ||
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GhostOwl
766 Posts
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote: Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. If the infestors are clumped together, it only takes 1 or 2 EMP to get rid of all their energy. A cloaked ghost can do that easily. If the infestors are split apart, why is it unfair to split apart your ghosts as well? He took time to split apart his infestors, it's only fair you be required to split apart your ghosts so they don't get mass fungal'd. On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote: Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Why are you bitching about having to EMP the infestors when Zerg also has to fungal the Terran army? Ghosts and Infestors are both required spellcasters in modern day TvZ. You're the one being illogical here. On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote: Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane. Your post makes it obvious you've never tried to use HSM and ravens properly. Sure, ONE HSM is slow and depends on luck to get a good splash damage off, but when people use Ravens in TvZ, they use lots of them. Many Ravens = Many HSM. Many HSM = Much more chance of getting devastating splash damage off of Z army. You're like a Zerg player complaining about how hard it is to get a good baneling splash off of MMM when you only make 1-3 banelings. If you make that little, of course it's gonna be difficult to get a good splash off. On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote: It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win. Your post is so ignorant and biased that it shows how shallow your thinking level is. So you're peeved that T has to rely on ghosts and raven more but do you not see how Zerg has to rely on infestor? Have you ever faced Z who didn't use infestors? Isn't it much less threatening to fight him that way? Same point here, T without raven and ghosts is much less threatening to Zerg. Yes, both Raven and Ghosts are gas-heavy, but the blunt of Terran army is Marines which is purely minerals. Zerg has to spend gas on Broodlords (huge hunk of gas), Banelings, Mutas/Corruptor (If T goes raven which T should). Okay, we can cancel out Mutas/Corruptor if you count in Medivacs. But Broodlord + Baneling gas over Marines. See what you're bitching about makes no sense? | ||
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glaresc
31 Posts
On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so! I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race). There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all. So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease? Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken. why do you think your opinion about these great players matters at all , keep it to yourself buddy. i know you are zerg and you think that if blizzard sees those opinions your race will get hard again and yes it might be true but you don't need to cry when zerg is imbalanced  | ||
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Deleted User 137586
7859 Posts
On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote: On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote: + Show Spoiler + Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so! Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race). "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all. "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. " So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease? Quote Supernova "It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken. Reading your attempt to construe those comments in a way that they do not say exactly what they say felt like reading the comments of a drug user in denial. Warped reality at its finest. | ||
BigFan
TLADT24920 Posts
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galtdunn
United States977 Posts
On June 19 2012 17:11 Ghanburighan wrote: Reading your attempt to construe those comments in a way that they do not say exactly what they say felt like reading the comments of a drug user in denial. Warped reality at its finest. Or what I said actually made perfect sense, if not exactly the most professional tone... I said nothing that isn't true or accurate. | ||
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Monsen
Germany2548 Posts
If you defend the Queen buff, you're crazy. If you enjoy reading terran flavored balance whine for a change, you're just like me. | ||
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Tryagain4free
81 Posts
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guN-viCe
United States687 Posts
On June 19 2012 17:02 GhostOwl wrote: If the infestors are clumped together, it only takes 1 or 2 EMP to get rid of all their energy. A cloaked ghost can do that easily. If the infestors are split apart, why is it unfair to split apart your ghosts as well? He took time to split apart his infestors, it's only fair you be required to split apart your ghosts so they don't get mass fungal'd. EMP had it's radius nerfed. Infestors can get what, 200 energy? Infestors are pretty big too. That's way more than 1-2 EMP's. Zerg can counter ghosts cloaking with 1-2 overseers and keeping their Infestors near the rear. Also, it's not fair to compare splitting ghosts and infestors. Terran needs to micro every unit, otherwise he loses. Terran: -Stim marines -Split marines -Stutter marines/run marines -Siege the tanks -Cloak ghosts -EMP infestors(or SNIPE!?) -Split ghosts?? -Split ravens?? -HSM?? -PDD?? Zerg: -1A -Keep infestors in back -FUNGAL -Infested Terran -??? That's too much Terran micro, even for 300APM pro's. On June 19 2012 17:02 GhostOwl wrote: Why are you bitching about having to EMP the infestors when Zerg also has to fungal the Terran army? Ghosts and Infestors are both required spellcasters in modern day TvZ. You're the one being illogical here. Infestors are great in every matchup and against pretty much any unit. Ghosts are an anti-spellcaster. Snipe is agreed to be trash in TvZ. Ghosts are trash as a fighting unit. EMP is only good vs infestors. I personally love the infestor and think it's the best spellcaster in the game. So insanely powerful and easy to use. On June 19 2012 17:02 GhostOwl wrote: Your post makes it obvious you've never tried to use HSM and ravens properly. Sure, ONE HSM is slow and depends on luck to get a good splash damage off, but when people use Ravens in TvZ, they use lots of them. Many Ravens = Many HSM. Many HSM = Much more chance of getting devastating splash damage off of Z army. You're like a Zerg player complaining about how hard it is to get a good baneling splash off of MMM when you only make 1-3 banelings. If you make that little, of course it's gonna be difficult to get a good splash off. Your post is so ignorant and biased that it shows how shallow your thinking level is. So you're peeved that T has to rely on ghosts and raven more but do you not see how Zerg has to rely on infestor? Have you ever faced Z who didn't use infestors? Isn't it much less threatening to fight him that way? Same point here, T without raven and ghosts is much less threatening to Zerg. Yes, both Raven and Ghosts are gas-heavy, but the blunt of Terran army is Marines which is purely minerals. Zerg has to spend gas on Broodlords (huge hunk of gas), Banelings, Mutas/Corruptor (If T goes raven which T should). Okay, we can cancel out Mutas/Corruptor if you count in Medivacs. But Broodlord + Baneling gas over Marines. See what you're bitching about makes no sense? Ravens might be good. They are definitely a late-game unit though. They are a supply efficient unit but not a resource efficient one until all the upgrades are researched and at full energy. Getting them before lategame means Terran has a shitload of useless flying units and a very weak ground army. On top of that, T needs multiple starports with techlabs. | ||
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Kreb
4834 Posts
So that led to a situation where the only (?) way to play zerg was to play the macro style while making as few units as possible. And with that style largely being the main objective of zergs for the last year or more, Blizz kinda had to balance around the idea that this is how zerg "is meant" to be played. Had the situation been that all races had equal possibilities to bust opponents early/mid game, I think this situation might not have happened in the first place. Then zergs could make units more freely. Because every unit made wouldnt be a lost worker, it would be a possibility to cause damage. Thats not the case right now. Right now every unit is a lost worker until the fight happen. Maybe Im overanalyzing things, but thats how I've felt about it at least. | ||
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FFW_Rude
France10201 Posts
Chill ? Are you there again somewhere ? Or is this real ? | ||
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AltezZa
Canada6 Posts
players will come up with new strats and use of units in many complex ways. it's okay, its a thinking game. you love strategy, be apart of it and love it. | ||
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-orb-
United States5770 Posts
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On June 19 2012 17:02 GhostOwl wrote: If the infestors are clumped together, it only takes 1 or 2 EMP to get rid of all their energy. A cloaked ghost can do that easily. If the infestors are split apart, why is it unfair to split apart your ghosts as well? He took time to split apart his infestors, it's only fair you be required to split apart your ghosts so they don't get mass fungal'd. + Show Spoiler + On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote: Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Why are you bitching about having to EMP the infestors when Zerg also has to fungal the Terran army? Ghosts and Infestors are both required spellcasters in modern day TvZ. You're the one being illogical here. On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote: Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane. Your post makes it obvious you've never tried to use HSM and ravens properly. Sure, ONE HSM is slow and depends on luck to get a good splash damage off, but when people use Ravens in TvZ, they use lots of them. Many Ravens = Many HSM. Many HSM = Much more chance of getting devastating splash damage off of Z army. You're like a Zerg player complaining about how hard it is to get a good baneling splash off of MMM when you only make 1-3 banelings. If you make that little, of course it's gonna be difficult to get a good splash off. On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote: It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win. Your post is so ignorant and biased that it shows how shallow your thinking level is. So you're peeved that T has to rely on ghosts and raven more but do you not see how Zerg has to rely on infestor? Have you ever faced Z who didn't use infestors? Isn't it much less threatening to fight him that way? Same point here, T without raven and ghosts is much less threatening to Zerg. Yes, both Raven and Ghosts are gas-heavy, but the blunt of Terran army is Marines which is purely minerals. Zerg has to spend gas on Broodlords (huge hunk of gas), Banelings, Mutas/Corruptor (If T goes raven which T should). Okay, we can cancel out Mutas/Corruptor if you count in Medivacs. But Broodlord + Baneling gas over Marines. See what you're bitching about makes no sense? Look I play random on my second account and this is just bullshit. You can't EMP 6-10 infestors with one ghost. | ||
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dRaW
Canada5744 Posts
MKP vs Symbol from GSL Ro32... I dont know much about SC2 but its clearly a little lop sided when you have the 2nd winningest player in SC2 get completely owned in a TvZ when it looks like he's not even able to do anything in the game, kills the lair and apparently that doesn't do anything at all  I must agree with the OP the m.u looks broken | ||
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Cortza
South Africa328 Posts
On June 19 2012 20:31 Probe1 wrote: Look I play random on my second account and this is just bullshit. You can't EMP 6-10 infestors with one ghost. Not to mention the fact that when you do emp them, they instantly start running/spreading. | ||
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Sajiki
Germany522 Posts
On June 18 2012 20:12 yeint wrote: I honestly think fungal is far, far too strong. I don't for a minute think they will or even should make such a drastic change at this point, but definitely in HotS. I don't know what Blizzard is thinking with the ability. It's far too high damage to also be a full duration root. Either make it a front loaded, undodgeable storm, or a somewhat longer duration no-damage root (perhaps lower energy cost for this). It should be an ability that prevents micro, not the highest DPS source in a lategame Zerg army. Casters in general should be situational, not a swiss army knife unit that's pivotal from minute 10 to minute 60. i couldnt agree more with a statement. fungal is the most boring, silly to watch and overpowered spell in this game. it takes absolutely no effort to aim because the zerg player has just no influence on whether it will be a "good" or a "bad" fungal, the only factor is, "is the terran player watching his army?". for the same reason i actually dont like to go infestors when i sometimes offrace .. they are slow disgusting maggots and theres just no way you can determine to use them decently. it is in my humble opinion just random. this is by the way disregarding the fact that watching a whole army melt in 3 fungals is also the most boring thing an observer could imagine (at least if the observer is me). you can at least "dodge" storms. infestors are also the main reason why zvt is the most shitty matchup to play right now. as this seems the proper place for terran players in this forum to complain and rage i just had to add my little rant. dont consider it useful or thought over. thank you. edit: ah and besides it feels so incredibly funny to kill 30 drones early game and still be behind in lategame - or just lose to a random combination of mass t1 amove into your base because you (DARE YOU) built a third cc before the 15 minute mark. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
On June 19 2012 20:49 Cortza wrote: Not to mention the fact that when you do emp them, they instantly start running/spreading. Yeah pretty much. {edited out wrote it wrong don't give a fuck about expressing the viewpoint} | ||
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Knap4life
Slovenia333 Posts
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