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Honestly, who's surprised? Blizzard's balance philosophy since WoW has been "taking turns" (So the OP and UP stuff gets swapped around so that everyone can experience overpoweredness at some point). I think that's how it's been in SC2 thus far, as well.
It's in my opinion clear that Terran is in a tough spot right now. Ravens, are they the solution? I really don't think so. Perhaps something like Viking harrass? Terran has numerous options, there should be something in there..
What would people think about changing Fungal into an AoE ability like storm, that dealt damage and slowed units by 50%? Maybe make it have a projectile as well instead of instant cast. Make it damage for more than currently, but it'd change so that it can be run out of and accidentally run into.
This would greatly improve the game in my opinion, at least worth a try. You could use it to zone areas, control escapes etc. instead of just clicking the center of the army every single time. Could also circle the army with it and allow banes to hit etc.
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On June 19 2012 22:33 Shikyo wrote:
Honestly, who's surprised? Blizzard's balance philosophy since WoW has been "taking turns" (So the OP and UP stuff gets swapped around so that everyone can experience overpoweredness at some point). I think that's how it's been in SC2 thus far, as well.
It's in my opinion clear that Terran is in a tough spot right now. Ravens, are they the solution? I really don't think so. Perhaps something like Viking harrass? Terran has numerous options, there should be something in there..
Last time I saw viking harrass must be back in beta. Terran has numerous options? Like viking harrass? I don't even...
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On June 19 2012 05:19 snexwang wrote:
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User was warned for this post I apologise for this, but I thought it was pretty funny. 
Also, I agree that the Queen range buff was a bit silly. Just don't take away my precious Turbolords.
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I think the problem is that Terrans don't really have a catch-all solution to the ways Zerg can tech. Unlike Protoss, who have to wait traditionally switching from high templar to colossi, (I believe TvP is pretty balanced even with some of the recent complaints that Protoss is favored), Zerg can tech switch instantly by spamming corruptors -> brood lords or spamming ultralisks. This switch used to be okay for the Terran to deal with because Zergs couldn't play too greedily early on or else they'd die/equalize to early pressure. Now that the queen buff has been introduced, Zerg can literally hold off most pressures with 6 queens and 4 lings, allowing them to safely get to the late-game with zero problems to their production.
And you might say "Oh, well it's fair that Terran doesn't have one solution to all Zerg attacks," but when you factor in the way production cycles work, (in which Terran has to wait after they 200/200 and trade armies, and Zerg insta-remaxes with spare larva), Terran really does need some way to always be cost efficient against Zerg in order for the late game to be fair.
The problem I see is that currently all the suggestions of "make ravens pl0x" or "make ghosts pl0x," are simply pushing the issue aside too easily. People have tried these strategies before, (and they failed, hence why people don't try these strategies any more unless they're at a much higher skill level than their opponent), and while Ravens work great against un-microed corruptors/broodlords/infestors, they do nothing against ultralisks, (mind you that's still unmicroed; with micro even ravens won't save you from broodlords). Ghosts work the same way: you might be able to be cost-efficient against infestors, but lings and ultralisks will kill you. Vikings are obviously useful against corruptors and broodlords, but are easily picked apart by infestors and are completely useless against utralisks. Marines typically fulfill the role of catch-all unit, but they instantly melt to fungals/banelings, (and later they just die to cracklings under fungals unless you have 12+ medivacs, in which case you're not going to have enough of your other tech to survive anything else. They're also pretty worthless against ultralisks if the Zerg is at all competent). Plus, you need a heavy tank/marauder count against the ultralisks, and that's simply too much production, (not even gas, since Zerg is typically more gas heavy; though anyone going raven/ghost/marauder/marine/tank/viking is out of their minds) to be reasonable for the Terran to produce.
tl;dr, let's put it this way: when Zerg gets their instant re-max of 100-120-ish supply off of five hatcheries, that's the equivalent of fifty-sixty barracks reproducing their units. While I don't think this mechanic is necessarily unfair, Terran needs to have an answer to the immediate tech-switch that Zerg can do. The infamous game between Nestea/Mvp at Blizzard Cup, in which Mvp created his ridiculous ghost/tank defense against everything would be the extreme version of what I'm saying. Terrans need a lite-version of that in order at least stay alive vs. Zerg's double/triple tech-switch.
That or you can simply give queens maybe 4 range instead of 5, so they don't insta-halt any and all pressure.
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I thought balance discussion wasnt allowed on teamliquid????? Can someone please close this trash of a thread.
User was warned for this post
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Haven't really been here in a while....last time I saw any discussion on SC2.....T was imba...things changed I guess.
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On June 20 2012 00:19 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
I thought balance discussion wasnt allowed on teamliquid????? Can someone please close this trash of a thread.
This is a blog started by a GM player, if you don't like the discussion don't open the blog. Now kindly GTFO.
The Viking harass thing caught my eye, until i realized 6 queens would just murder the fuck out of them in air or landed. Thought maybe a split Viking/Hellion in multiple locations could function like drop play, but then why not just drop marines?
Are Marauders the answer? Like 4 tech lab'd Rax Marauders with Medivacs and reactor Hellions? Could be a mean 10minute push, but GL against mutas.
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On June 19 2012 08:45 beetlelisk wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote:On June 19 2012 07:05 beetlelisk wrote:On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote:+ Show Spoiler +This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws. Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not? Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily. I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that. Show nested quote +Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs. Show nested quote +To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. I haven't ever said to snipe and I don't see how it's ridiculous. Show nested quote +Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors. Show nested quote +All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, You haven't proven anything. Show nested quote +[the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding. Show nested quote +Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away. Show nested quote +Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane. Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane. Show nested quote +It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game? I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier. Show nested quote +
Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously.
Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too. Show nested quote +Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP. Show nested quote +Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win. There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct.
Why would I build such an expensive, slow unit that I have to upgrade the HSM and wait till it has 125 energy just to shot a HSM missle at the fastest unit in the game (lings) and banelings and mutas? There is no way that the HSM will hit lings, mutas, or bane before they die. There is also a delay on the animation before it starts accelerating and during this animation, the raven is unable to move and this is usually when they die. Dont forget that by firing your HSM close, it will also have the potetntial to kill the raven and without a high raven count....raven are not that good. It to much of a risk....it like saying, you should take your infestor and go infront of a marine bio army and then fungal them so they cant run away from you (a bit over exaggerated though)
The AOE on fungal is like 4-5 EMP. It is also instant.....pretty damn hard to split your ghost and from what i remember, fungal has a bigger range then emp too.
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It's not imbalanced, just more razor's edge. T's options are limited now more than ever.
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Well..Zerg only has the queen as their AA unit for up to 10 minutes...lol spores. Don't get me started.
So the queen can deflect banshees, hellions, and tiny groups of marines. Zerg can only build one unit for one purpose, Terran can still make 3 for every one..
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no,you make 6 queens 4 the purpose to slaughter them all
Marines,hellions,banshees!
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On June 20 2012 01:51 DarKcS wrote:
Well..Zerg only has the queen as their AA unit for up to 10 minutes...lol spores. Don't get me started.
So the queen can deflect banshees, hellions, and tiny groups of marines. Zerg can only build one unit for one purpose, Terran can still make 3 for every one..
I don't even understand what you're trying to say... I'll take 1 unit as a response to 3 over 3 different options ALL day...
No matter which style of Terran you play, you have 1 solution to all of those styles [Queens]. Where is the benefit in being able to make 3 different units when 1 of your opponents units handles them easily.
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I actually would like to see either more options explored or more options made viable for Terran, though I do think the Overlord speed and Queen buffs were correct decisions. I'm not really sure what I could add to this thread that hasn't been covered already.
The one thing I have been considering I'm not nearly qualified enough to know if it'd be a good idea so I'll share it and maybe a map maker can test it if they think it's a good idea or something. So yeah, I was wondering what it would be like to have some mineral and gas patches on the thirds entombed similar to the new Protoss Oracle ability. Like 2-3 mineral patches available (or none if that turns out better) until you destroy the entombs which health tweaked according to balance requirements. It's kinda like a compromise on rocks where you can place the Hatch and you can begin mining, you can begin additional larva generation and you'll have creep to begin placing Spores and micro'ing Queens so you're not instantly shut down by cloaked units or flyers. Also means Lings can produce a difference faster and over time but maybe still take the ame time overall for optimal mining, rather than nibbling for an hour to even start taking the third.
I'm a Gold league Zerg so I tend to try to avoid giving any opinions on balance as I'm not good enough at even the basics of the game to have ever won or lost due to balance but I'd still be interested to see what impact that suggestion would have. I think it'd maybe provide a little delay that could balance things out but if anyone better than I wants to tell me I'm wrong then fair enough.
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On June 20 2012 02:36 Iyerbeth wrote:
I actually would like to see either more options explored or more options made viable for Terran, though I do think the Overlord speed and Queen buffs were correct decisions. I'm not really sure what I could add to this thread that hasn't been covered already.
The one thing I have been considering I'm not nearly qualified enough to know if it'd be a good idea so I'll share it and maybe a map maker can test it if they think it's a good idea or something. So yeah, I was wondering what it would be like to have some mineral and gas patches on the thirds entombed similar to the new Protoss Oracle ability. Like 2-3 mineral patches available (or none if that turns out better) until you destroy the entombs which health tweaked according to balance requirements. It's kinda like a compromise on rocks where you can place the Hatch and you can begin mining, you can begin additional larva generation and you'll have creep to begin placing Spores and micro'ing Queens so you're not instantly shut down by cloaked units or flyers. Also means Lings can produce a difference faster and over time but maybe still take the ame time overall for optimal mining, rather than nibbling for an hour to even start taking the third.
I'm a Gold league Zerg so I tend to try to avoid giving any opinions on balance as I'm not good enough at even the basics of the game to have ever won or lost due to balance but I'd still be interested to see what impact that suggestion would have. I think it'd maybe provide a little delay that could balance things out but if anyone better than I wants to tell me I'm wrong then fair enough.
That wouldn't really solve much, the Terran would face the same problems the zerg would. Mining wise, at least.
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On June 19 2012 17:00 galtdunn wrote:On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:Show nested quote +Quote DRG
ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Confidence from the best Zerg player in the world? Say it isn't so! Show nested quote +Quote MVP
"Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." I got nothing, except that he sounds like most koreans/everyone-fucking-else do (in thinking that they play the weakest race). Show nested quote +"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." There was also a period where MVP actually never lost to Nestea, the shoe is on the other foot, that's all. Show nested quote +"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything.
" So the best player in the world builds 6 blind queens against all-ins and somehow wins? When will the travesty cease? Show nested quote +Quote Supernova
"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " Speaks the the general Terran theme of being at a disadvantage (which is true). Doesn't mean the MU is broken.
Trying to downtalk top notch Korean pros = big fail
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On June 20 2012 02:41 GreEny K wrote:Show nested quote +On June 20 2012 02:36 Iyerbeth wrote:
I actually would like to see either more options explored or more options made viable for Terran, though I do think the Overlord speed and Queen buffs were correct decisions. I'm not really sure what I could add to this thread that hasn't been covered already.
The one thing I have been considering I'm not nearly qualified enough to know if it'd be a good idea so I'll share it and maybe a map maker can test it if they think it's a good idea or something. So yeah, I was wondering what it would be like to have some mineral and gas patches on the thirds entombed similar to the new Protoss Oracle ability. Like 2-3 mineral patches available (or none if that turns out better) until you destroy the entombs which health tweaked according to balance requirements. It's kinda like a compromise on rocks where you can place the Hatch and you can begin mining, you can begin additional larva generation and you'll have creep to begin placing Spores and micro'ing Queens so you're not instantly shut down by cloaked units or flyers. Also means Lings can produce a difference faster and over time but maybe still take the ame time overall for optimal mining, rather than nibbling for an hour to even start taking the third.
I'm a Gold league Zerg so I tend to try to avoid giving any opinions on balance as I'm not good enough at even the basics of the game to have ever won or lost due to balance but I'd still be interested to see what impact that suggestion would have. I think it'd maybe provide a little delay that could balance things out but if anyone better than I wants to tell me I'm wrong then fair enough. That wouldn't really solve much, the Terran would face the same problems the zerg would. Mining wise, at least.
Well Zerg typically hate rocks since it forces attack units. Terran have a much easier time clearing rocks. It's a very interesting idea. Thing like gas less/1gas 3rds haven't really been explored in sc2 either.
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Nice read. As a fellow Terran player I really hope something does change soon, TvZ feels like a giant up hill battle.
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Now that the Queen has a range of 5, I want to know if the PTR has ever tried the 'Reaper speed' without Factory required. It would slightly help the Terran with a heavy bio composition early game, transitioning into Seige Tank||Raven after the 3rd base is saturated. Does anyone recall if the D-8 charge could remove a Creep Tumor?
I was recently watching a game where a Terran expanded then did a 2 Medivac, 2 SCV, 14 Marine, 8 Hellion push. It did fairly well against 4 Queen, but I know 6 Queen would squash it.
The few TvZ I have won is when my opponent decides to do Stephano~like Roach, Zergling aggression. If I hold with just a bio composition, I can push and punish my opponent.
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On June 20 2012 00:19 Johnnyboy13 wrote:
I thought balance discussion wasnt allowed on teamliquid????? Can someone please close this trash of a thread.
User was warned for this post
There's actually a designated balance discussion thread. Needless whining and complaining isn't allowed, but discussion is.
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GUYS I JUST FIGURED SOMETHING OUT YESTERDAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!
IT COULD BE A A SOLUTION!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
DID YOU GUYS KNOW THAT SEEKER MISSILE WILL HIT WHERE AN UNIT DIES??
MAKE 5 RAVENS SEEKER MISSILE A FAST UNIT, AND SUICIDE THEM INTO ZERG'S ARMY! IT EVEN WORKS WITH CLOAKED UNITS (BANSHEES COMES TO MIND)....
Ok I'm not saying this unit cannot be fungalled, or such... BUT this provides a "infinite" range seeker missile! I tried in the unit tester, make a hellion run under the ravens, mass HSM the hellions and run into a blob of enemies.... Insta gib from a seeker missile casted like 20+ range away!!
User was temp banned for this post.
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EPT
