|
+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2012 00:50 mbr2321 wrote:Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games? Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular: On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote:
Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore? A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question. I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it. Your argument essentially defeats itself in this: On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote:
Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win) This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend.
Quote DRG
ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge."
Quote MVP
"Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg."
"I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist."
"I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything.
"
Quote Supernova
"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. "
so MVP and supernova are defeatists now.
There are 4 options right now.
Terran figures something out and it gets patched because its too strong (happens every few months)
Terrans figure something out and it doesn't get patched (hasnt happened yet)
Blizzard patches the game and fixes the problem (happens occasionally)
Blizzard makes bunkers build faster (hasn't happened yet)
I think the first option is the most likely 
|
On June 19 2012 10:03 Probe1 wrote:
You're completely over reacting and dismissing nukes. Everyone said Ultras and Nydus were shit; now it's being incorporated and no one is saying "Wow, what dodgy gimmicky play to use ultras!"
Ghosts are not useless. Ghosts are no longer end all OP units that stop ultras, brood lords and even banelings. Your spell casting unit can do all kinds of neat shit and still be of use in a fight.
Ultras are still shit, it's just that they can be gotten in a safer manner thanks to terrans getting shit on, so you end up with a.advantage and if o really don't want to micro brood lord investor then you can just ultra ling investor and a move with de cent success unless you are playing someone who is a lot better than you.
|
Thanks 13_Doomblaze_37,
I find it kind of odd how strongly people say this is a pointless balance whine when basically every pro player and top korean interviewed and noteable player that's posted in this thread has said they feel there is currently an issue. (notable players who've posted in here agreeing are Jinro, KawaiiRice, QuanticHawk(ZERG PLAYER) to name a few)
Sure maybe I went a little far and exaggerated a few points a bit much but I really feel strongly about the issue. I want this game to be the best it can be. 
|
I think it's too soon to come to any reasonable conclusions about TvZ. From my limited/lower skill perspective it seems like there is room for terran to re-think their strategies and update their late game (more raven? more nuke? something else) before OMG ZERG IMBA is a conclusion.
|
just look at recent tourneys/dreamhack, no single terrans in last 16 players this is so broken actually
|
On June 19 2012 12:01 Bigtony wrote:
I think it's too soon to come to any reasonable conclusions about TvZ. From my limited/lower skill perspective it seems like there is room for terran to re-think their strategies and update their late game (more raven? more nuke? something else) before OMG ZERG IMBA is a conclusion.
Well, from my higher skill (unless you are a solid GM player/pro) perspective I'll disagree :<
|
I'm still curious as to which units zerg can build instantaneously as was stated previously. As far as I know protoss has the quickest unit build out of gateway and it's still not instant.
|
so this is how terrans and toss felt when zerg bitched about balance for like the first 6 seasons
|
Even though I haven't played much lately so I don't totally know if Z is actually overpowered in this matchup now, but I have to say, I find it very hard to have sympathy for the terrans considering how horribly broken ZvT was in favor of the terrans for the first year and a half or so that the game was out
|
|
|
On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2012 00:50 mbr2321 wrote:Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games? Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular: On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote:
Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore? A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question. I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it. Your argument essentially defeats itself in this: On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote:
Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win) This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend. Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. " Quote Supernova"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " so MVP and supernova are defeatists now. There are 4 options right now. Terran figures something out and it gets patched because its too strong (happens every few months) Terrans figure something out and it doesn't get patched (hasnt happened yet) Blizzard patches the game and fixes the problem (happens occasionally) Blizzard makes bunkers build faster (hasn't happened yet) I think the first option is the most likely
Do you have a source for those quotes?
Link?
|
On June 19 2012 13:59 Josealtron wrote:Even though I haven't played much lately so I don't totally know if Z is actually overpowered in this matchup now, but I have to say, I find it very hard to have sympathy for the terrans considering how horribly broken ZvT was in favor of the terrans for the first year and a half or so that the game was out
The problem is, terran players never asked to be overpowered. Since shit keeps getting nerfed from their perspective, its really demotivating.
|
On June 19 2012 14:00 Steglich wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2012 00:50 mbr2321 wrote:Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games? Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular: On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote:
Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore? A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question. I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it. Your argument essentially defeats itself in this: On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote:
Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win) This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend. Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. " Quote Supernova"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " so MVP and supernova are defeatists now. There are 4 options right now. Terran figures something out and it gets patched because its too strong (happens every few months) Terrans figure something out and it doesn't get patched (hasnt happened yet) Blizzard patches the game and fixes the problem (happens occasionally) Blizzard makes bunkers build faster (hasn't happened yet) I think the first option is the most likely Do you have a source for those quotes? Link?
It's all from their GSL interviews
|
Their GSL interviews where they um...
Beat zergs ><
Except DRG who said that in his post MLG win interview.
You can look them up yourself but I can ensure you 100% those are accurate.
|
Shouldve picked zerg instead of terran rofl such a joke
|
Just ebay block the zerg natural and no 6 queen build. Pretty much every tournament map nowadays is 2 player, so on all of these ebay block will solve all your problems!
|
I play random. I think nerfing the queen range 1 unit would help. The overlord speed seems fine. On the big maps, it was very difficult to know what was going on, especially protoss timings can be scary more than anything for me. For my overall mmr, my TvZ has always been complete and utter crap and my ZvT is probably my easiest matchup. Playing ZvT was VERY frustrating to get 2 rax+bunker rushed, or cloak banshee BS, even the blue flame hellion runbys, all very very annoying, but it kind of had to have a way for the terran to get some free drone kills or you'd never be able to take a 3rd because the zerg would have such an economic advantage that they could saturate 3 bases and still have enough units to deny your 3rd and you have to hope you can kill them on 2 base before they get any good units. That was my high diamond 1v1 random experience anyway. As far as the highest level, it seems foreign terrans are getting absolutely mauled (see Summer Dreamhack). A few top korean terrans can hang with the top zergs but it's definitely very simple ZvT at lower skill levels.
|
I switched from Master Zerg to Terran around season 5. Zerg always gave me problems which was strange because you would think I know the race so well.
Recently, Zerg have been kicking my ass. I watch people like ForGG and MVP to see what they are doing and try to emulate it on ladder. Unfortunately, ForGG seems to open with the same cheesy build every game that only works if Zerg has taken a fast third and has no evo chambers or lair tech on the way - counting on massing hellions and popping out a few cloakshees to hold the Z down while you transition to mass bio medivac and take your own third. It works about 1/3 of the time, wins me a few easy ones, but usually just gets me steamrolled with ling roach into gg.
I thought it was just me, but it turns out a lot of terran are struggling with Zerg? Anyone know blizzard's reasoning behind the queen buff?
|
On June 19 2012 03:05 ticklishmusic wrote:
overlord: 1 larva, 100 minerals.
Scan: 240 minerals or 8 supply
idunno, overlords seem better for scouting to me. but I play protoss so what would i know?
Can't shoot down a scan before it reaches what it wants to see.
You also don't have to pre-prepare a scan by putting it in position beforehand.
On June 19 2012 16:14 dGHaiL wrote:
I thought it was just me, but it turns out a lot of terran are struggling with Zerg? Anyone know blizzard's reasoning behind the queen buff?
I think unfortunately it's because massing hellions and winning was way easier than defending mass hellions at the lower levels.
|
On June 19 2012 14:00 Steglich wrote:Show nested quote +On June 19 2012 10:39 13_Doomblaze_37 wrote:+ Show Spoiler +On June 19 2012 00:50 mbr2321 wrote:Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games? Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular: On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote:
Some of the best terran players are playing 15cc builds quite often these days, Taeja and MKP come to mind, but these builds automatically lose to some zerg builds if they choose to coin flip, MKP lost to back to back 6pools the other day in TSL4 KR qualifier. When I was complaining about this one of my friends on skype said "well everyone knows MKP is one of the greediest mofos around." Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore? A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question. I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it. Your argument essentially defeats itself in this: On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote:
Honestly Terran cant make a single mistake at any point in a TvZ or they're basically going to autolose all the while hoping their zerg opponent makes massive mistakes (sometimes takes 3-4 huge mistakes in 1 game for T to win) This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend. Quote DRG ZvT became... as long as I don't make a mistake – regardless of whether my opponent plays well or not – as long as I don't make a mistake, I play thinking that I am going to win. The queen range buff was just so huge." Quote MVP "Back when Toss was the OP race, Terran could at least deal with it. But now, there is nothing we can do against Zerg. If you have two players of equal skill, the Terran cannot beat the Zerg." "I haven’t won a single game against Nestea lately. Unless I come up with a new strategy or build, it’ll stay like that. The Terran race needs a revolutionist." "I tried playing Zerg on the ladder and met a lot of barcode Terrans. All those Terrans opted for an all-in build. I defended all of those all-ins with the six queen build. Unless, it’s a super early marine/scv cheese rush, six queens can hold anything. " Quote Supernova"It’s so hard. I tend not to speak about balance but TvZ is really a nightmare. I never even said a thing about TvP back when it was considered lopsided. At the time, I felt I had a solution. But not TvZ. I was able to win today only because the stars aligned for me. I can’t think of what to do for TvZ and even in practice, I get a win rate of around 20-30%. " so MVP and supernova are defeatists now. There are 4 options right now. Terran figures something out and it gets patched because its too strong (happens every few months) Terrans figure something out and it doesn't get patched (hasnt happened yet) Blizzard patches the game and fixes the problem (happens occasionally) Blizzard makes bunkers build faster (hasn't happened yet) I think the first option is the most likely Do you have a source for those quotes? Link?
Supernova
Mvp
Dongraegu
MMA
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
