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13JackaL
United States577 Posts
On June 19 2012 05:22 Htw wrote: Look at the top 16 for MLG, an obviously much harder tournament than Dreamhack. Don't try to turn the happenings of one tournaments RO16 into an argument. all the players at dreamhack fought for their place in the bracket. MLG's players are majorly seeded. | ||
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Xyik
Canada728 Posts
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On June 19 2012 07:00 EienShinwa wrote: This beetlelisk guy is quite the character. Such theorycrafting is inane and simply trying to divert the attention that the actual problem that needs to be addressed. All of your questions have already been answered by progamers and higher league individuals, therefore I just don't understand your reason for continuing to grasp at straws. Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not? | ||
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ticklishmusic
United States15977 Posts
On June 19 2012 03:53 phiinix wrote: Wait WHAT? How would that possibly be balanced when 50 energy on 1 ht completely negates 1 ghost for the next minute while it makes snipe incapable of killing anything? why would you ever choose snipe over emp if they both deal shield damage and only 2 units have more than 200 shield? No offense but I haven't heard a balance idea so terrible since someone suggested that hellions should be able to attack while moving. No offense, but saying no offense makes me facepalm. I was referring to reversing the ghost nerf-- it was in the post right above mine though unfortunately I didn't make that clear. 25 dmg + 25 vs psionic makes it almost useless as I'm sure most people will agree. I would like to see ghosts do their regular old 40 damage again so they could be viable against Zerg, but the half shield damage would make it so they didn't just completely rape HT/zealot by spamming a single button. I think it would make T think a little bit about what spells they wanted to spam on P a little more. It's not much of a fix, but hopefully it would give T a unit which could do something against Z while not making it too good against P as it used to be. I also want to point out that EMPing a HT makes it completely useless for a minute as well, and that sniping it makes it useless forever. Plus, HT move slower than ghosts and are much more of an investment given they're T3 and Protoss being a more gas heavy race in general. If you want to complain about feedback'd ghosts, I'll complain about how EMP makes P deathballs ~70% less effective b/c no energy and no shields. If its really that terribad a suggestion, please, make a better one. | ||
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DTK920
Canada46 Posts
1. super super super weak early game. I've experimented with bunkers, banshees, seige timings for defense but nothing worked against any sort of ling bling, ling bling roach, or heavy roach ling aggression before 9minutes. because of the high gas cost of ravens and starports, ideally you want to get up to three bases before production. Unlike protoss which has forcefields to defend, terran simply cannot handle the zerg agression right now with their current arsenal. Bunkers need repairing which delays mining and puts scvs at a high risk. banshees and tanks both delay ravens too much and are produced too slowly if going for a raven composition. 2. Ravens seem only to work during mid game. They are never all that good against a direct engagement but rather flying around all the bases and dropping auto turrets seem to be the best use for them. At around mid game you should have about 5-10 of these flying around harassing as much as possible while building up towards the perfect sky terran army. ravens are good against mutas if zerg chooses to use them to defend and can avoid corruptors. Only major concern is mass spores to shut down your harass, but if that occurs just save energy for a pdd or 2 then fly in and drop mass turrets. 3. during late mid game to early late game ravens become rather useless. ravens need to get to within 2 range usually for a HSM to go off properly, but this is easily countered by fungals. The drop low range for auto turrets is also shut down the same way. Any competent zerg player should be able to shut down ravens at this point. 4. if somehow you made it to super late game through insane harass or major fail on the zerg's part then you've won. Nothing beats battlecruiser banshee viking raven composition. mutas don't hit bcs hard enough, and are shut down by ravens PDD. Corrupters are also shut down by PDD and correct viking counts. Hydras are shut down by PDD and HSMs. Fungals dont kill bcs fast enough and bcs can easily yamato infestors before they get close enough. Overall I don't think ravens will be viable until some terran out there figures a way to defend perfectly without spending too much resources to delay your first raven past the 15min mark....or if ravens were buffed to actually do their job better withou't being shut down so easily | ||
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optical630
United Kingdom768 Posts
drop harass can still turn games around. the early game got changed up because it at times was bullshit (bitbybit anyone?) | ||
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
On June 19 2012 07:05 beetlelisk wrote: Lol what questions and what answers? I believe to be the first to asking my questions so how can they already be answered? And how am I diverting the attention??? I am diving directly into specifics of the problem, am I not? Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily. Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane. It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game?Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win. | ||
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stew_
Canada239 Posts
On June 19 2012 07:13 DTK920 wrote: I see a lot of posts about ravens, so I'm just going to put my own insight into this. I've experimented with raven builds before on a masters level acc and here are my conclusions: 1. super super super weak early game. I've experimented with bunkers, banshees, seige timings for defense but nothing worked against any sort of ling bling, ling bling roach, or heavy roach ling aggression before 9minutes. because of the high gas cost of ravens and starports, ideally you want to get up to three bases before production. Unlike protoss which has forcefields to defend, terran simply cannot handle the zerg agression right now with their current arsenal. Bunkers need repairing which delays mining and puts scvs at a high risk. banshees and tanks both delay ravens too much and are produced too slowly if going for a raven composition. 2. Ravens seem only to work during mid game. They are never all that good against a direct engagement but rather flying around all the bases and dropping auto turrets seem to be the best use for them. At around mid game you should have about 5-10 of these flying around harassing as much as possible while building up towards the perfect sky terran army. ravens are good against mutas if zerg chooses to use them to defend and can avoid corruptors. Only major concern is mass spores to shut down your harass, but if that occurs just save energy for a pdd or 2 then fly in and drop mass turrets. 3. during late mid game to early late game ravens become rather useless. ravens need to get to within 2 range usually for a HSM to go off properly, but this is easily countered by fungals. The drop low range for auto turrets is also shut down the same way. Any competent zerg player should be able to shut down ravens at this point. 4. if somehow you made it to super late game through insane harass or major fail on the zerg's part then you've won. Nothing beats battlecruiser banshee viking raven composition. mutas don't hit bcs hard enough, and are shut down by ravens PDD. Corrupters are also shut down by PDD and correct viking counts. Hydras are shut down by PDD and HSMs. Fungals dont kill bcs fast enough and bcs can easily yamato infestors before they get close enough. Overall I don't think ravens will be viable until some terran out there figures a way to defend perfectly without spending too much resources to delay your first raven past the 15min mark....or if ravens were buffed to actually do their job better withou't being shut down so easily agree with you completely, but there aren't too many maps this is viable on, as well as the points that you listed | ||
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beetlelisk
Poland2276 Posts
On June 19 2012 07:22 EienShinwa wrote: Most of your questions like getting ghosts to emp infestors and potential to use ravens in the TvZ mu are nonsensical. It's already been proven that it's gimmicky, not standard, and most importantly not very feasible to effectively use those units to their supposed maximum potential when they can be abused so easily. I don't see using ghosts to be proven as impossible or "not feasible" in this thread, even though I asked for VODs or replays. I don't know how using Ravens against lings, banes and mutas is nonsensical as I don't believe they were ever used to do that, instead they were always used as anti brood lord weapon. We simply don't have the data to state that. Ghosts are incredibly slow and emp is very hard to use on infestors when there are lings, banelings, and ultralisks in front of them. Even if you cloak, the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3 and then all your ghosts will be insta-killed because he'll know and fungal. That's why I keep on saying to spread out ghosts. Also give me an example of "the most you'll kill or emp are 2 or 3" in the form of a VOD or a replay. And also by the time you have ghosts you sure do have medivacs so there is anything needed to bypass zerg fighting units and reach the infestors with EMPs, either by ground or air, in medivacs. To tell us that we should split ghosts and take our time sniping all of your 8-10 infestors is fucking ridiculous. I haven't ever said to snipe and I don't see how it's ridiculous. Additionally, you're just relying on luck that he will keep all his infestors clumped together if you think you'll get them all the first round. Why must we rely on luck? What luck are you talking about? It's only natural that they are clumped because units in SC2 naturally get clumped when being moved around. And Infestors are being clumped because good players keep them on a different hot key. Since so many people in this thread are completely missing the anti-caster role of the ghost I guess zergs don't really feel the need to spread out their infestors when there is not a single ghost on the field in most of their games, so they get used to it and never spread their Infestors. All this proves is that Terran must play exponentially better than the Zerg, You haven't proven anything. [the Zerg] who is a moving with his army and keeping all his infestors together to mass fungal the terran's army. Why are we required to outplay Zerg by trying to emp all your infestors with 1-2 ghosts at a time, while keeping up with macro cycles, not getting supply blocked, making more buildings, expanding, etc? This is ridiculous, it's like saying zerg doesn't have to do the same or even more in terms of expanding. Granted, you're also doing the same, but imagine trying to use 1-2 burrowed infestors at a time to get rid of tank siege line positions. Do you understand why it's so illogical? Ravens are in a similar situation, when that even if they launch heat seeker missiles into groups of infestors and zerglings, because of the insanely slow speed of the HSM and of the raven, you'll be incredibly lucky to hit more than 1 if not 1. That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away. Then they'll just get fungaled and killed. Unless you ask we should do the same thing you suggested with the ghost. I already explained that above.The thing that is most important to note is that both of these spell casters for terran only have projectile spells that are slower than the other races' spells and are not cost efficient due to the fact that the apm required to skillfully and efficiently use them is just insane. Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane. It's also completely bullshit that people are commenting that terran should rely on ghosts and ravens more, but that's fucking stupid. Why must we rely entirely on these two spellcasters to win us the game? I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier. Terran is fundamentally different from Zerg and Protoss in that we can't make units instantaneously. Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too. Getting ravens and ghosts early for us doesn't help us, it fucking hurts us. We need those extra marines, marauders, medivacs, and vikings to fucking attack early like the retarded ass game designers at Blizzard want. I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP. Take a moment to understand this sentence: The longer the game goes on, the fucking harder it is for us to win. There is nothing to understand, there is a lot to prove to be correct. | ||
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Meta
United States6225 Posts
Also: On June 18 2012 10:01 kerpal wrote: 5-6 queens and 2 spines? are you suggesting that the zerg investing 1100 minerals into purely defensive units should be insufficient to hold an all-in? if you made 7 bunkers and took a fast 3rd, would you be upset to lose to an all-in? probably. 7 full bunkers is 2100 minerals, and to cover two expansions it's only 3/4 each, one or either of which could still fail to stop an allin thanks to banelings' splash | ||
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Itsmedudeman
United States19229 Posts
In any case, any sort of adaptation has its limits. We'll find out soon enough. But we may as well buff marine range by 5 and tell everyone else to "adapt" and explore hydras. | ||
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Tortious_Tortoise
United States944 Posts
On June 19 2012 04:58 galtdunn wrote: + Show Spoiler + On June 19 2012 00:50 mbr2321 wrote: Your argument seems to be that TvZ isn't as fun to play or watch because it's harder and riskier for Terran to all in. That claim in and of itself is ridiculous and counter-intuitive. All-ins are supposed to be do-or-die, extremely risky plays. And in what twisted world is it more fun to watch successful all-ins over sick, edge-of-seat macro games? Next you talk a lot about greed. You talk about how much greed zergs can 'get away with' simply by making a few extra spines and queens. You assert that Terran can't get away without any greed because of the myriad of zerg all-ins that are so potent against Terran. You neglect to mention, however any kinds of Terran aggression that can hit a Zerg off of two bases. Look at Polt's bio/hellion aggression that killed so many zergs in Anaheim, which transitions perfectly easily into a standard marine/tank play. You assert that Terran's can't play greedily but Zergs can, but that's crap. In particular: A 15 hatch isn't as greedy as a 15 cc. Not by a longshot. Opening 15 CC against a 15 hatch, all else equal, puts the Terran way ahead. A 15 CC is closer to a 3-base before pool in terms of greed. That a Terran can punish a 3-hatch before pool play is without question. I don't understand why you think this matchup is broken. The only people hurt by these nerfs are people who play extremely gimmicky and abusively. These patches didn't hurt macro terrans in the slightest, nor did it hurt aggressive terrans who don't all-in. Just because Banshees don't automatically get 5+ drones regardless of how the Zerg prepares doesn't mean that Banshees lose all of their utility.Just because Zerg can be aggressive doesn't mean Terran can't take economic risks and get away with it. Your argument essentially defeats itself in this: This is the mentality of someone who's bad at a matchup and doesn't want to admit it. It's a feeling of helplessness that leads one to redirect one's own failures on a cosmic, beyond-one's-control source. I feel the exact same way about TvP. But asserting that zerg necessarily has to make massive mistakes in order to lose is such a defeatist notion. StarCraft II is getting to the point wherein the better player wins. Patches aren't changing which race is inherently better than the others, but rather they are eliminating the ways in which worse players can beat better players by abusing a certain mechanic that's way easier to execute than to defend. This is my favorite post from this whole thread. dawwwwwwww thanks. It's nice to be appreciated. The funny thing is I play terran too xD | ||
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Gako
Canada22 Posts
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JoeSchmoe
Canada2058 Posts
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GenesisX
Canada4267 Posts
On June 19 2012 09:35 JoeSchmoe wrote: funny how all the "advice" for terran players in this thread are coming from zerg players who have no understanding about the viability of anything they're saying. probably because that is the only advice being given in this thread. The rest of the posts are Terrans crying over how imbalanced this game is now. | ||
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EienShinwa
United States655 Posts
That's why I have already said to fly closer with Ravens to the HSM targets so missiles accelerate and hit their targets immediately after being launched, instead of wasting them by fireing from far away. Think about it. WHAT fucking zerg will let a terran let a raven let alone ravens near enough their army to release flying bombs that move at 0.5 speed with a shitty range? Are you that desperate to defend your claim that ravens have potential, that you actually believe a zerg will let ravens near their masses of lings, ultras, infestors, etc? Ghost's projectile EMP spell is actually quite fast, so fast is rather impossible to dodge it. I don't see huge APM requirements to split 3 to 5 Ghosts, move them close to Infestors, hold down the EMP hot key and left mouse click a few times on the Infestors. It's definitely not insane. I don't know if you actually tried EMPing fucking anything, but in SCII, units move, believe it or not. And Zerg moves the fucking fastest. It's hard enough to try and emp Protoss while they are moving around and not lose ghosts uselessly, but Zerg? The major problem here is the amount of DPS that SCII units do. As a result of this, trying to emp infestors behind enemy lines is not worth the risk the rewards may bring. Even if you EMP the infestors, it doesn't mean you can kill all the cracklings + ultras + banelings, or kill all the cracklings+banelings+broodlords. To say that you can EMP or snipe any amount of infestors while zerglings move at the speed of light and fungal will instantly catch ghosts is easier said than done. It's fucking near impossible. Ever try EMPing the Protoss army before engagement? Because units move so fucking fast, the skill to accurately EMP units on target due to the fact that EMP is a projectile is incredibly difficult. This is an excuse, yes, but I hope you know how hard it is to EMP on constantly moving units when your ghosts are fucking slow as shit. You don't even know half of it if you haven't played Terran before. I didn't say to rely on Raven, I said I believe it has a potential to explore. I don't see what else are you going to rely on in terms of countering Infestors and their Fungal. Well you don't have to rely on ghosts if you can split your marines like a pro, but relying on the ghosts still sounds easier. Do you know why people use tanks at all? Tanks believe it or not, still are effective in TvZ until broodlords. And they can actually, you know, kill shit while the only use for ghosts is to EMP infestors. Now think about this, commit a large amount of resources for the CHANCE, a fucking CHANCE, to not even kill but EMP infestors or have tanks that GUARANTEE some kills, whether this be target firing infestors, killing masses of lings, or barraging utralisks. Well zerg definitely can't make units instantaneously and Protoss can only make gateway units in like 5 seconds. Protoss still needs Robotics Facility's units like Colossi in all 3 MUs and if he chooses to, Stargate units too. I hope you're trolling or your ability to make any sort of claims go right out the fucking window. I think I also already explained what is the trade off of making a single ghost to prevent like 12 to 60 marines getting their hps getting dropped to red, in case of preventing Fungals with EMP. I don't think you understand this from a Terran perspective. Making ghosts in TvZ is not a credible option, it's a fucking risk. You aren't guaranteed to EMP ANY infestors let alone kill them with ghosts. And to get all the upgrades necessary is a HUGE risk you are taking just to take care of infestors. Getting those ghosts leaves you in a do-or-die situation. You can get those magical EMPs that get EVERY SINGLE infestor, or you miss one or two and get steamrolled, because you spent your resources on those ghosts that could have gone to extra marines, marauders, medivacs, tanks, etc. And even if you EMP every infestor, that doesn't guarantee jack shit - he can still have more units than you because you stupidly spent all that money on ghosts. | ||
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Probe1
United States17920 Posts
Ghosts are not useless. Ghosts are no longer end all OP units that stop ultras, brood lords and even banelings. Your spell casting unit can do all kinds of neat shit and still be of use in a fight. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On June 19 2012 09:26 Gako wrote: I thought crying about imbalance was banned on TL. Also, most of your whining seems to come down to (TLDR) "I don't scout vs Z but they do scout me and I lose. Why did I lose TL, Zerg is OP, DUH." Not unless there is a solid statement to be made. And trust me, people know damn well that Terran is having major problems. It's not a mistep from TL.net. They check every single post, nevermind thread. I'm with you OP. Terran has been nerfed to the ground. Look at Dreamhack Terran participation and results lol. | ||
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Psychobabas
2531 Posts
On June 19 2012 05:16 avilo wrote: What someone needs to do is make a very informed blog in the general SC2 section perfectly illustrating the problem before it takes another 2 months for them to revert the TvZ changes or buff Terran lategame. At this point it's unplayable, and I'm sure Terrans right now are all considering either race change, customs, or d3 until HOTS comes out or a patch. As a Master Terran, I have done 2 of the ones, suggested by avilo (customs and diablo 3)... Been playing Terran since the beginning. It fucking sucks.. | ||
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