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While I am not a terran myself I do enjoy watching Fitzy play ZvT. His style is pretty unique end game, but it's starting to trend a bit more. And with the new buffs to queens and full time pro players picking up on it... I can see how there can be problems for terran. In my opinion a lot of the same issues that apply to how Terran plays early game apply to Protoss as well with the last patch.
The only "real" thing I've seen some Protoss players do to change the meta game a lot is not take 3/4th gases so it looks like an early rush, but just cannon expand a 3rd expo while walling your ramp to natural and just defend ur third. It's a completely different way to play the match up... but I think with how the adjustments to the game have come along people either need to start doing things like that.. or of course, it's going to be like running your head into a brick wall if they can just see what's coming and you do it anyway.
Though, I will add, I still find it incredibly tough as you noted that games vs Zerg, or well.. almost any race vs race in this game, can sometimes just instantly be over. Last night I was playing some practice games and finally realized why my mothership wasn't casting vortex when I told it to, even when casting inside the radius of the spell. If you are moving a mothership and tell it to vortex is takes like 2-3 in game seconds for it to slow down and then cast... This really really creates problems for double vortexing incredibly strong Z armies, and often just gets u neural parisited before the second one goes off if it's moving. And that's about your only hope vs 18 broods 16 infestors 10 corruptors 16 queens and 58472347394 spines. T_T
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Snipe un-nerf isn't even necessary, it's the Queen buff that needs to be removed.
If you watched high-level tournaments before the Queen buff, TvZ was a great matchup - generally 50/50 all the time, exciting back and forth games, etc. For some reason, David Kim didn't like an even matchup though. :/
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On June 18 2012 08:00 Torenhire wrote:
No shock a zerg player has no rebuttal but an old blog lol
I think the point was that I've read this somewhere before 
Yeah, who knows, who cares, every 2 months there's always something new to complain about in SC2, when they nerf zerg next there will be somehow a crazy new imba, or maybe every game will just be mmm again, who knows.
I don't expect much to be changed until HOTS is released. The tears will flow and the game will still be very boring in almost every lategame matchup. Archon toilets, inf/BL, colossi colossi colossi, choose your own misadventure.
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On June 18 2012 08:03 blade55555 wrote:
If snipe was un-nerfed then zvt would go back to how it was moving back then. Terran would go bio and sit back, get a ton of ghosts and snipe every high tier zerg unit thus making bl/ultra useless again. I don't know the best way to help terran out late game, but if snipe goes as strong as it was last game then it's going to go back to mass ghost and win.
I don't think that's a given since Z is stronger early game and the maps are far bigger now. I think it's fine for mass Ghosts to decimate Hive units because they're so terrible against midgame units, and if you balance via maps you can give Z a chance to come back with a big unit swell.
Since terran transitions take so long (no larva stockpiling, no warpin), I think it's absolutely necessary for them to have a single unit that can deal with both Hive units.
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On June 18 2012 08:08 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Well, can't say for sure yet as terrans always seems to manage a way to win, but this is probably gonna be the most difficult terran nerf/zerg buff to overcome in sc2 history. At least when something else was nerfed you'd get terrans making some new crazy early game builds, but now queens cover just about everything you can throw at them. Any sort of uncertainty and guessing game is gone from the zerg's POV and it's almost like playing with maphacks in that sense. So early game is gone, and mid game and late game was nerfed prior to this. I don't really see how raven helps here to stop the problems that came from all the prior nerfs/buffs. Stops creep a bit, but doesn't help the eco/late game.
Honestly I would rather have top terran players just keep losing and doing bad so the game designers can wake up. Every single terran unit has been utilized for some kind of aggressive opening to stop greedy droning, but the sad fact is that 5-6 queens and 2 spines beat every single kind of attack before ten minutes. No competent zerg loses to any kind of timing attack these days and if you don't succeed in killing a fair amount of drones you might as well just leave.
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On June 18 2012 08:09 t.Swift wrote:
Snipe un-nerf isn't even necessary, it's the Queen buff that needs to be removed.
If you watched high-level tournaments before the Queen buff, TvZ was a great matchup - generally 50/50 all the time, exciting back and forth games, etc. For some reason, David Kim didn't like an even matchup though. :/
I definitely agree because I find SC2 a lot better to watch if most games are decided in the midgame, with the occasional long game and the occasional quick game. Early game aggression is a lot more exciting than maxed army clashes.
But if their desire is to make the matchup balanced at all stages of the game, they need to fix lategame TvZ instead of making it harder for the game to get there.
Again, personally I think the game is far better to watch if getting to the lategame is the exception rather than the norm.
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On June 18 2012 07:14 LuckyFool wrote:
Why can zerg exploit the greediest terran mofo around but terran cant do the same to zerg anymore?
I don't know how I feel about the matchup but I really, really agree with this. As a terran I personally don't like how MKP plays because it's so greedy and exploitable, a lot of his builds don't seem to be able to hold a lot of zerg aggression. However on the flip side, after watching a certain someone open 3 hatch before the 5 minute mark with 9 queens, and 0 units other than drones and overlords, it's uncomfortable. The way I see it, the best builds are either sick timings, or some form of mech which aims to go super late game with max upgrades and a ton of ravens with hsm.
I would really like to see a raven speed buff. I mean, even faster acceleration. It's already a slow unit to begin with, which reminds me of the mother ship(bad); it should be a flying spell caster, not a mega game ender.
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Luckyfool I was going to make a SC2 general section post about TvZ, but you beat me to it here. I may still make one, because I feel no pro is going to come out and say how bullshit it's become after the queen change. * bro hi five * for having the balls to make a post about it
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On June 18 2012 07:31 Archas wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 07:29 yeint wrote:
Fungals make me want to stab kittens.
And that's all that really needs to be said about late game TvZ. Zerg spams ultras, if you make an anti ultra army it dies to brood switch. If zerg spams broods you make vikings and die to ultra switch. The only general purpose unit that could keep the terran alive through these transitions is the marine, and fungal just melts them. Every single late game TvZ I've watched lately ends with the terran looking away for a split second at a critical moment and then his army melts.
Terran found the solution to this late game in the ghost, but snipe was nerfed to uselessness. I'm unfamiliar with TvZ late-game, so please don't take this comment to be intentionally clueless or anything, but what is stopping the Terran player from simply making more Ghosts to make up for the decreased effectiveness of Snipe? Is it an issue with supply? Insufficient gas? Not enough time to pump out the Ghosts needed before the Zerg makes their move?
In the situation he described, ghosts work perfectly.
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The blizz devs stated very clearly at MLG that their internal statistics are showing tvz to be "balanced" right now. Even it there really is something wrong, it will be months before they take action. Might as well dig your heels in and keeping fighting.
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On June 18 2012 08:23 avilo wrote:
Luckyfool I was going to make a SC2 general section post about TvZ, but you beat me to it here. I may still make one, because I feel no pro is going to come out and say how bullshit it's become after the queen change. * bro hi five * for having the balls to make a post about it
To be honest you have thought zerg was broken for like 2 years now. Anyone who takes your opinion on tvz balance is silly, while it is actually zerg favored this time, we can just go look at the past to see how many times you have said terran should never beat zerg and did over half the time at those periods of time, especially when non ladder maps were being used.
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Oh yeah, I just thought I would add a tid bit here just to point out how bad it is right now. You guys remember how bad TvP lategame currently is still and how everyone was complaining so much (rightfully so) that it's too easy for Protoss?
Well, the reason you have not heard much TvP complaints in the past 1-2 weeks is not because those issues have gone away - the TvP lategame issues are still there nothing has been done to change them. It's because the TvZ match-up is in worse shape now than even TvP lategame, which really speaks for itself to be quite honest.
Just swallow that pill.
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On June 18 2012 08:28 blade55555 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 08:23 avilo wrote:
Luckyfool I was going to make a SC2 general section post about TvZ, but you beat me to it here. I may still make one, because I feel no pro is going to come out and say how bullshit it's become after the queen change. * bro hi five * for having the balls to make a post about it To be honest you have thought zerg was broken for like 2 years now. Anyone who takes your opinion on tvz balance is silly, while it is actually zerg favored this time, we can just go look at the past to see how many times you have said terran should never beat zerg and did over half the time at those periods of time, especially when non ladder maps were being used.
Stop talking
a) mis-quoting/out of context stuff from me. I gave feedback in the beta and when things were crazy such as 1 SUPPLY ROACHES. Get your facts straight. And please, don't throw out random out of context shit from 2+ years ago.
b) There is a legitimate problem right now, with Terran lategame in general, but the TvZ is taking the forefront right now because of just how bad it is compared to even TvP lategame.
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Sounds like for the first time since Starcraft 2's inception Terrans aren't steamrolling everyone.
God forbid you need to change the way you play like Protoss had to and Zerg has had to.
Time to change.
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On June 18 2012 08:37 Denzil wrote:
Sounds like for the first time since Starcraft 2's inception Terrans aren't steamrolling everyone.
God forbid you need to change the way you play like Protoss had to and Zerg has had to.
Time to change.
Suggestions?
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I feel like Zerg is a little favored in the matchup largely because Terran is having issues doing any inhibiting damage early-mid game with the recent queen range buff. That said, I also feel like Terrans are kind of in the same situation that a lot of Protoss were in a few months ago when the 11:30 200/200 roach bomb came into play, in that they are so comfortable with an antiquated and figured out playstyle that they're all having issues transitioning out of it.
I'm a master Z player, and it's fucking retarded how Terrans will still get 6-8 hellions out and think they're going to do any damage to the surplus of creep-spreading queens and good wall-ins that Zergs have started using. Reactored hellions have been an opening since GSL season 2, and it's feel and timings have been fleshed out and widely documented. We're sort of in the same situation that Zergs were in when mutaling/bling was being figured out and completely dissected. Time to start doing things a bit different, IMO.
All this said though, the queen range does need to be looked at.
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On June 18 2012 07:37 yeint wrote:Show nested quote +On June 18 2012 07:31 aRRoSC2 wrote:
yeint, first you complain about fungals. then you complain about snipe nerf. you realize infestors take 2 snipes to kill after the "nerf" instead of 3 right? That's not the problem, the problem is snipe not being effective against Hive tech units anymore. Unlike in TvP (or HTs in PvZ), ghosts are utterly useless against the main army.Terran builds too slowly and requires too much specialized infrastructure to afford a one trick pony unit.
You make a good point about the general utility of ghosts in TvZ, but I also feel that you're missing some nuances in this comparison; if your ghosts do great in PvT (EMP most Templars / Sentries and a big chunk of the army's shields), they'll give you a big advantage, but they won't destroy the Protoss because Protoss isn't crippled if he has no HTs with energy (they can always morph into Archons). On the other hand, Zerg usually invests a lot more supply and gas into Infestors than Protoss does on HTs vT, and Zerg relies on Infestor support much more heavily as well; if you manage to strip the Zerg army of all Infestor support in late game TvZ, Zerg is pretty horribly crippled, whether they are using Ultras that can never catch properly microed Terran units or slow Brood Lords that can't run away and have no hope of winning a straight up fight without Infestor support.
So yes, Ghosts are mostly only capable of countering Infestors in TvZ, but countering infestors can be just what T needs to win the game because infestors are so damn strong.
On a sidenote: After the Snipe nerf, are Ghosts still good vs. Mutas? I've never seen Ghost vs. Muta after the nerf.
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In TvP you can at least do things to exploit a greedy protoss, and can hide builds with good turret positioning/scanning to snipe obs. plus there are lots of good timings for terran in that matchup in general.
On a side note, Dreamhack has just 3 terrans in the top 16, 2 of which have to play tvz right away tomorrow. I feel sorry for Keen and Brat_Ok. 
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On June 18 2012 08:37 Denzil wrote:
Sounds like for the first time since Starcraft 2's inception Terrans aren't steamrolling everyone.
God forbid you need to change the way you play like Protoss had to and Zerg has had to.
Time to change.
Terrans have been changing the way they play after every nerf patch. Just because you, the mighty Denzil, don't acknowledge it, doesn't mean it hasn't been so in reality.
In fact, every time they did change their way, it got nerfed. So much so, that right now there are only 3 viable openings.
1 rax 3 cc and 15cc into whatever and cloak banshee, which is gimmicky as fuck.
And every one of those builds has an autoloss scenario if you didn't scout zerg perectly.
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You guys aren't excited for the impending patch? lol
Terran hasn't been patched in forever. What will we get? a thor buff? THINK OF THE POSSIBILITIES
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EPT
