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I think the blow of what's happened to BW has been inappropriately softened. We received months of foreshadowing by Milkis who I didn't want to believe because he refused to reveal sources. Even now it's not clear where Milkis got his information or if it was just a lucky guess.
What's happened this past season of proleague is treacherous. If the allegations in Coach Ju's interview are true, that BW players have been practicing StarCraft 2 in anticipation of a new league, this is a disgusting realisation. One of the reasons match-fixing in sports is so offensive is that it makes a mockery of competition and honesty with fans. How can they send players to go on stage while pretending that they have given their 100% to the game, when their attentions have really been split?
Just like the match-fixing scandal, before the truth was revealed fans made many excuses for the players. There was the stress of the past years events, the loss of several teams, the long break between leagues and the general 'uncertainty' of the scene (or maybe it was only uncertain to the fans).
Coach Ju's interview requires a bit of caution, admittedly. When he says other teams have been practicing SC2, it doesn't necessarily mean their A line ups have been. It could be B teamers or new players brought on just for SC2. What dissuades me from believing that is that he's gotten Jaedong to play SC2, and admits without remorse that he is having his team, which hardly has the manpower to be competitive in BW, to play SC2. Is it a gamble by Coach Ju? Is Coach Ju even a smart man? I'm starting to get the impression he is all image and no substance, but I still can't imagine him lying about this.
It's not really necessary to say much more about this. This time it's like everyone in the league was 'Savior'[1]. Everyone is guilty of desecrating the image of honest competition in youth sports. And yeah, they're doing it for money, so how is it any better? If we found out about this all at once, it would be much more devastating. But at the tail end of a series of misadventures and betrayals, with months of hints and advance warning, it gets tucked under the rug as if it were nothing.
It's not nothing, is it?
[1] to use the name most commonly associated with match-fixing, even if he didn't throw his games himself.. let's not argue about this 
 
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United States8476 Posts
I don't see what's wrong with this.
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So the only honest way to transition from 1 game to another is to completely stop playing BW, and then play SC2 for 100% of the time instead? Seems like a very stupid way to go about it and the clan would suffer for it. Of course they need to practice SC2 if that's the direction the clan is heading.
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They seem just as confused as you are. Everyone will learn to move on and figure it out. Don't get your panties in a bunch.
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:<
it just makes me really sad that this is how it's going to end. it's like slowly waking up from a good dream.
I think people need to look at this from the fans perspective: it's just very disappointing to hear that your favorite players aren't giving their all for the game the fans enjoy watching them play.
This also explains the shitty quality of games this proleague season >
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Forgiving that real sports don't have sequels which necessitate a transition phase, yes it's still dishonest. They were not upfront about it because less people would have watched if they knew the players were only playing in their spare time and the league was being phased out. They kept it a secret because they didn't want to lose viewers who would see the league as a farce.
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On April 08 2012 00:57 Chef wrote:
Forgiving that real sports don't have sequels which necessitate a transition phase, yes it's still dishonest. They were not upfront about it because less people would have watched if they knew the players were only playing in their spare time and the league was being phased out. They kept it a secret because they didn't want to lose viewers who would see the league as a farce.
so they made a smart business decision, welcome to the real world
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Comparing not playing 100% to match fixing... If you seriously treat these two things as the same then I question your sanity. Cheating, and being pragmatic is what this can be boiled down to; putting them on the same level is ludicrous.
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On April 08 2012 00:59 Coramoor wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 00:57 Chef wrote:
Forgiving that real sports don't have sequels which necessitate a transition phase, yes it's still dishonest. They were not upfront about it because less people would have watched if they knew the players were only playing in their spare time and the league was being phased out. They kept it a secret because they didn't want to lose viewers who would see the league as a farce. so they made a smart business decision, welcome to the real world
how would you feel if your favorite SCII players were going to cut their practice and jump ship for the LoL scene? sure you would still (hopefully) support your players but it would still feel pretty shitty.
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No, they're not exactly the same, but they both cheated the fans out of honest competition. That's not acceptable imo.
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I'm not sure where you get this sense of entitlement. We've been given free BW action for years, if players see the need to practice SC2 to help the transition then so be it. It's sad to see the end so near, but I don't feel like the players owe us anything.
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On April 08 2012 01:03 DKR wrote:
Comparing not playing 100% to match fixing... If you seriously treat these two things as the same then I question your sanity. Cheating, and being pragmatic is what this can be boiled down to; putting them on the same level is ludicrous.
Chef didn't say it was "as bad as match fixing". He's explaining that the leagues are being shifty and covering it up for as long as possible. Plus it really hurts the image of the young passionate gamers who give their honest effort in every game.
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I guess in your world Stork (rocking dat WoW) is the big bad Savior.
You know what I think should be the biggest and last BW scandal:
Idra mentioned on ITG recently that Kespa was aware for years that progamers are taking mentally-enhancing drugs and was covering it. He didn't cite names and I doubt he would testify it in court, but to me as a fan that's a huge blow on the integrity of this sport.
http://soundcloud.com/hashbaz/inside-the-game-37
@1:55:50
- Has Kespa ever done any drug testing at all?
- Kespa was the teams and the Korean players did use them so...
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Yeah, playing part time BW and part time SC2 does not equal match fixing. Sorry big guy.
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On April 08 2012 01:07 figq wrote:
I guess in your world Stork (rocking dat WoW) is the big bad Savior.
No. Stork playing WoW is like an NHL player playing basketball once in awhile. What happened is more like an NHL play's practice time being cut in half the whole season because he's practicing for when there's no more hockey and it's just basketball, even tho the fans are coming to see him be good at hockey. No, it's not as bad as deliberately throwing your games, but when the whole league does it, the whole league becomes a sham. This is something that was taken very seriously for a decade, with players grinding out 10 hrs/day because they were professionals. That's what proleague has come to mean, so if you suddenly stop doing that but don't tell the fans, you are deceiving them. I don't care about 'law' or 'smart business' decisions, most of us were taught dishonesty is bad / we shouldn't like people who tell lies to us Long term, it destroys credibility, even in business.
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On April 08 2012 01:05 drag_ wrote:
I'm not sure where you get this sense of entitlement.
Not liking something is not the same as entitlement.
Is disliking savior for what he did 'entitlement', because we shouldn't get to expect professionals to be professional? fuck no.
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On April 08 2012 00:52 Sablar wrote:
So the only honest way to transition from 1 game to another is to completely stop playing BW, and then play SC2 for 100% of the time instead? Seems like a very stupid way to go about it and the clan would suffer for it. Of course they need to practice SC2 if that's the direction the clan is heading.
Agreed.
Allowing the BW pros to play SC2 in their spare time is not a scandal. It's certainly not Savior-level. I think we need to relax on the accusations lol.
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Explains the season long poor play from players. If that's where the money is then that's what people will play, kinda sucks.
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I don't like it, and I agree it's shifty. That being said, as long as the players are trying their best ingame I think it's still a legitimate competition. Just not that prestigious. Kind of like seeing Steven Hendry play snooker. It's still beautiful and I'm sure he still puts in a ton of practice but it's not quite the same it used to be.
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On April 08 2012 01:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 00:52 Sablar wrote:
So the only honest way to transition from 1 game to another is to completely stop playing BW, and then play SC2 for 100% of the time instead? Seems like a very stupid way to go about it and the clan would suffer for it. Of course they need to practice SC2 if that's the direction the clan is heading. Agreed. Allowing the BW pros to play SC2 in their spare time is not a scandal. It's certainly not Savior-level. I think we need to relax on the accusations lol.
It's not about their spare time. I'm sure it's coming out of their practice time. I mean, Jaedong used to practice BW 10 hours a day 7 days a week. I'm sure the last thing he'd want to do in his spare time is learn a new game at a high level.
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On April 08 2012 01:14 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 01:05 drag_ wrote:
I'm not sure where you get this sense of entitlement. Not liking something is not the same as entitlement.
I'm aware of the difference. He argues players owe it to us, the fans, to play only BW. This limits their chances of a successful switch to SC2, which will have to come sooner or later. I do not think we, the fans, are entitled to make such a demand.
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On April 08 2012 01:21 drag_ wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 01:14 Dfgj wrote:On April 08 2012 01:05 drag_ wrote:
I'm not sure where you get this sense of entitlement. Not liking something is not the same as entitlement. I'm aware of the difference. He argues players owe it to us, the fans, to play only BW. This limits their chances of a successful switch to SC2, which will have to come sooner or later. I do not think we, the fans, are entitled to make such a demand.
It is perfectly normal for fans to expect the best from their players in any sport. He wanted them to play their best in BW, and, with the pros practicing for SC2 instead, didn't get their best. In other words, he felt cheated.
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On April 08 2012 01:20 hypercube wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 01:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 08 2012 00:52 Sablar wrote:
So the only honest way to transition from 1 game to another is to completely stop playing BW, and then play SC2 for 100% of the time instead? Seems like a very stupid way to go about it and the clan would suffer for it. Of course they need to practice SC2 if that's the direction the clan is heading. Agreed. Allowing the BW pros to play SC2 in their spare time is not a scandal. It's certainly not Savior-level. I think we need to relax on the accusations lol. It's not about their spare time. I'm sure it's coming out of their practice time. I mean, Jaedong used to practice BW 10 hours a day 7 days a week. I'm sure the last thing he'd want to do in his spare time is learn a new game at a high level.
I'm sure if Jaedong wasn't happy with his contract conditions, he could do something about it. He's Jaedong. I doubt he's being forced to be a worse BW player >.>
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He argues players owe it to us, the fans, to play only BW.
I argued that we're entitled to know if they're giving it their all. If they are practicing BW 5 hours and SC2 5 hours, we should be told so that we can decide if we want to watch 3 months of mediocre play, hoping for them to get back on their feet and get over the last year of bad news.
Airforce ACE (from its creation) is a good example of a team who is upfront about its limitations. Also, T8 in a lot of respects. They don't lie to the fans.
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On April 08 2012 01:24 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 01:20 hypercube wrote:On April 08 2012 01:14 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On April 08 2012 00:52 Sablar wrote:
So the only honest way to transition from 1 game to another is to completely stop playing BW, and then play SC2 for 100% of the time instead? Seems like a very stupid way to go about it and the clan would suffer for it. Of course they need to practice SC2 if that's the direction the clan is heading. Agreed. Allowing the BW pros to play SC2 in their spare time is not a scandal. It's certainly not Savior-level. I think we need to relax on the accusations lol. It's not about their spare time. I'm sure it's coming out of their practice time. I mean, Jaedong used to practice BW 10 hours a day 7 days a week. I'm sure the last thing he'd want to do in his spare time is learn a new game at a high level. I'm sure if Jaedong wasn't happy with his contract conditions, he could do something about it. He's Jaedong. I doubt he's being forced to be a worse BW player >.>
Please read the interview. Coach Ju claims that T8 did not have the resources to play SC2 during the league. He is only making JD play it after the fact (because he must, since T8 has so few players and a bo7 SC2/BW league will require him to play SC2). T8 played poorly because of their actual conditions, we are talking about the claims against the rest of the teams.
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Lets be realistic here,
1) It makes sense what they're doing.
2) The actions isn't wrong of itself.
3) What is wrong here is that they're selling honesty (which is what caused the sAviOr situation to blow up as much as it did and what they are doing here isn't honest.
4) Considering point 3, it should be frowned upon because the fans believed the players were putting on as much of a show as possible, but they weren't (not because of the switch in game itself).
Basically, if you didn't read, they're selling honesty and for them to cover up hours and hours of practice time being thrown out the window is not legitimate.
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I completely understand where you're coming from but I'm not so sure that this season's mediocre play was a consequence of split practice time. I think it's probably the bo5 format where getting a quick win via cheese/all-in brings you a giant step towards victory. Of course they should be up front about splitting the practice along the games, no question.
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Good Lord, that Op. Entitlement all over the place. Not worth a comment.
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I thought people knew the bw teams were practicing sc2? didn't they replace their monitors and didnt multiple sources say they are praciticing sc2?
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On April 08 2012 00:52 Sablar wrote:
So the only honest way to transition from 1 game to another is to completely stop playing BW, and then play SC2 for 100% of the time instead? Seems like a very stupid way to go about it and the clan would suffer for it. Of course they need to practice SC2 if that's the direction the clan is heading.
No, the point is they shouldn't be transitions at ALL period.
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Sure, Jaedong has been chained to a chair and forced to play SC2 ...
Wake up, BW players play SC2 because they like playing RTS, if they don't want to play SC2 they can opt not to play like others have done.
On April 08 2012 02:13 goldendwarf wrote:
I thought people knew the bw teams were practicing sc2? didn't they replace their monitors and didnt multiple sources say they are praciticing sc2?
Yeah, people can make up a lot of explanations to prove otherwise when they don't like the implications.
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On April 08 2012 02:46 Saechiis wrote:Sure, Jaedong has been chained to a chair and forced to play SC2 ... Wake up, BW players play SC2 because they like playing RTS, if they don't want to play SC2 they can opt not to play like others have done. Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 02:13 goldendwarf wrote:
I thought people knew the bw teams were practicing sc2? didn't they replace their monitors and didnt multiple sources say they are praciticing sc2? Yeah, people can make up a lot of explanations to prove otherwise when they don't like the implications.
I'm not sure who needs to wake up, when you're being paid full time to play a game, you don't count as one of those players who just plays other RTS... It's your full time job. To cut into that job time with still full time salary is a major scandal for the fans, it's just more abstract so people don't see it, but it's money that's going to people who are working on designing a pie while they should be configuring a program.
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On April 08 2012 03:08 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 02:46 Saechiis wrote:Sure, Jaedong has been chained to a chair and forced to play SC2 ... Wake up, BW players play SC2 because they like playing RTS, if they don't want to play SC2 they can opt not to play like others have done. On April 08 2012 02:13 goldendwarf wrote:
I thought people knew the bw teams were practicing sc2? didn't they replace their monitors and didnt multiple sources say they are praciticing sc2? Yeah, people can make up a lot of explanations to prove otherwise when they don't like the implications. I'm not sure who needs to wake up, when you're being paid full time to play a game, you don't count as one of those players who just plays other RTS... It's your full time job. To cut into that job time with still full time salary is a major scandal for the fans, it's just more abstract so people don't see it, but it's money that's going to people who are working on designing a pie while they should be configuring a program.
What's your point? Playing SC2 next to BW atm is their job.
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On April 08 2012 03:35 Saechiis wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:08 Eywa- wrote:On April 08 2012 02:46 Saechiis wrote:Sure, Jaedong has been chained to a chair and forced to play SC2 ... Wake up, BW players play SC2 because they like playing RTS, if they don't want to play SC2 they can opt not to play like others have done. On April 08 2012 02:13 goldendwarf wrote:
I thought people knew the bw teams were practicing sc2? didn't they replace their monitors and didnt multiple sources say they are praciticing sc2? Yeah, people can make up a lot of explanations to prove otherwise when they don't like the implications. I'm not sure who needs to wake up, when you're being paid full time to play a game, you don't count as one of those players who just plays other RTS... It's your full time job. To cut into that job time with still full time salary is a major scandal for the fans, it's just more abstract so people don't see it, but it's money that's going to people who are working on designing a pie while they should be configuring a program. What's your point? Playing SC2 next to BW atm is their job.
It's what their job is as described by their employer, though their employer making it seem like they're playing BW full time is dishonest to the people who are supporting them. Thus, the people who are maintaining their salaries (since they're entertainers) are being deceived, thus, it's dishonest (which is supposedly everything these people have preached they are against).
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On April 08 2012 04:16 Eywa- wrote:Show nested quote +On April 08 2012 03:35 Saechiis wrote:On April 08 2012 03:08 Eywa- wrote:On April 08 2012 02:46 Saechiis wrote:Sure, Jaedong has been chained to a chair and forced to play SC2 ... Wake up, BW players play SC2 because they like playing RTS, if they don't want to play SC2 they can opt not to play like others have done. On April 08 2012 02:13 goldendwarf wrote:
I thought people knew the bw teams were practicing sc2? didn't they replace their monitors and didnt multiple sources say they are praciticing sc2? Yeah, people can make up a lot of explanations to prove otherwise when they don't like the implications. I'm not sure who needs to wake up, when you're being paid full time to play a game, you don't count as one of those players who just plays other RTS... It's your full time job. To cut into that job time with still full time salary is a major scandal for the fans, it's just more abstract so people don't see it, but it's money that's going to people who are working on designing a pie while they should be configuring a program. What's your point? Playing SC2 next to BW atm is their job. It's what their job is as described by their employer, though their employer making it seem like they're playing BW full time is dishonest to the people who are supporting them. Thus, the people who are maintaining their salaries (since they're entertainers) are being deceived, thus, it's dishonest (which is supposedly everything these people have preached they are against).
Everyone besides the people who chose not to believe knew they were practicing SC2 next to BW. Not making offical statements until now because there were probably still negotiations hardly construes "dishonesty". Non-one has ever denied that BW players were practicing SC2 and there were plenty of breadcrumbs leading to that conclusion.
Besides, it's not like anyone here is paying for BW Proleague.
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Don't worry I doubt the BW stars will be playing SC2 for long before KeSPA realizes that no-one in Korea seems to care about the game and foreigner fans are tired of seeing the foreigner players getting smashed in every tourney ever. Also cool entitlement to something you have probably contributed nothing to in a financial sense (unless you bought some team jersey I suppose)
Everyone's just going to end up playing LoL or DoTA2, competitive RTS could be dead within 2 years.
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Agreed. They are MONSTERS for daring to play SC2 and BW at the same time! They should totally get banned from all the leagues and be forced to stream to put food in their mouths! Yeah... no.
It's not a big deal and it's certainly not comparable to Savior's wrongdoings. Sure, the part about players transitioning to SC2 is big, but playing both games at once while delivering the standard talk about "giving 100%" is not and comparing that to the match-fixing scandal is, quite frankly, silly.
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United Kingdom1716 Posts
If people don't stop saying "let's be honest" and "wake up", and "frankly" and "sorry, but it's the truth" in all these threads in an attempt to instantly validate their point, I'm going to lose my mind.
Not to mention the sheer incredible amount of reductio ad absurdum that takes place, again, by people trying to be all sarcastic and invalidate those with whom they don't agree, simply to validate their point. There's no such thing as a proper sensible debate on the internet, with these droves of faceless people, all of them instantly big and clever, speaking down to anybody who thinks something other than they do. Please, stop talking down to those who voice their opinion, even when it's one which wishes no ill upon you.
I agree that this whole thing has been conducted in an underhand, dishonest and clandestine way. Just amazing how little the fans have been thought about in the whole equation.
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I think the shit will really hit the fan for BW fans when ACE announces they will be disbanding. That's why none of their players are in the OSL! Did you read the bullshit official excuse? Please! They're getting out of dodge because they're not going to waste time learning SC2 when the are recreational BW players during military service! My heart is gonna break
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I'm with you Chef, it's dishonest to the fans and, imo, disrespectful to the players. I wouldn't want to compete knowing that my opponent (or myself) just somewhat half ass-ed preparation.
Reading the responses in this thread really make me wish you could see what game people play in their profiles. Like over half the people in this thread are post-"TL is giving out free sc2 beta keys" join date. -.-;;
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EPT
