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sam!zdat
United States5559 Posts
On February 28 2012 02:49 Cyro wrote: now when the economy is terrible, kids seem to keep leeching off their parents for longer and longer.... oh well ...ummm, maybe that's because the economy is terrible, so there aren't really all of these jobs you think there are? | ||
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Crawler
Estonia248 Posts
On February 28 2012 03:04 emythrel wrote: They did have all those options and for the most part, most people didn't have much lag. I don't know where you were watching it from, but it obviously wasn't the official stream. Switching screen rates was possible but still lagged like hell ( didn't try 240/360 but it should work on 480 too ). Last time I spent money on this mlg crap for sure. They have technical issues much more often than other tournaments. Don't know why I have kept watching their crap and it was well played to make our gold and silver memberships useless. "Whole year of MLG events" and then you have to spit out 20$. It's lag free only in US and some EU countries. | ||
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Inkarnate
Canada840 Posts
A. There is similar content free of charge. B. Ways for me to 'pirate' it. Being smart with money is a good thing in my opinion. Yes this is only $20, but only $20 multiple times adds up. | ||
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Paperplane
Netherlands1823 Posts
On February 28 2012 03:04 emythrel wrote: They did have all those options and for the most part, most people didn't have much lag. I don't know where you were watching it from, but it obviously wasn't the official stream. Not true, a lot of people were lagging. For the majority of the tournament there was a 5-10 second lag spike about every minute for me. | ||
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Jayjay54
Germany2296 Posts
E.G. I am at burger king at the cheeseburger suddenly costs 3,50 $, I probably won't get it, even though I am hungry and can spare the money. It used to cost a dollar, now it's a lot more and the product hasn't improved. If the pizza you talk about cost 30 instead of 15 bucks, would you buy it? Or would you choose another pizza place? Not paying 20$ bucks is actually not bad for Esports. It may be bad for MLG, but it just shows that PPV at that price is not a valid business strategy. Imagine ALL tournaments would suddenly be PPV, don't you see how this would rip Esports apart? IMO, advertisement + Premium Stream Extra money is the way to go. It's fair and more than enough people are willing to pay. I honestly don't think MLG made more money than they would have made with ad + prem. If they did, I guess it is valid and MLG will continue to go that way, which is sad IMO. Not because I don't want to pay for games, but I think it's the wrong way to grow Esports and I think it's the wrong way for MLG too. | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
Quite simply I may not always have money, but I always want to be able to watch ongoing events, thus I don't support people without free streams, its as simple as that. | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
On February 28 2012 03:04 bonifaceviii wrote: If you paid $20 simply to support esports, you are indeed part of a small and silly minority. Well this is why I refrain from doing blogs like this. You don't read the entire blog (I don't blame you there really are better things to read) and make a snarky comment. I'm just going to let you know that your comment doesn't contribute at all, you can take time to read my blog to see why, which is quite simple really. I want to remind people that I'm not trying to make you guys feel guilty about not purchasing about a pass. What I said was that my post was aimed towards people who just did not purchase a Pass, and still complained about the $20 price tag. I mean if you bought $20 and began screaming and throwing your cereal at the computer monitor and then drenched yourself in milk in your instance of insanity- due to the high cost of the Pass, COOL! No really I mean it's okay. We all have very valid reasons for not buying the pass. But some of us who choose to whine about it are the ones that upset me. AND ITS NOT A CHARITY! I'm not mindlessly telling you all to throw your money, just give it extra thought. I mentioned that in my OP as well... Since it's their first time they're doing this, $20 is not as unreasonable as $50- so why not? And I'm sure that there will be additional adjustments to change the pricing and the production because they have to in order to survive. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
On February 28 2012 02:53 DamageControL wrote: Look, I'm not going to shit on you for buying the pass. That's your choice as a consumer. I refuse to let you make me feel guilty for choosing to not buy the pass, however. Yeah, I could afford $20. It wouldn't kill my budget. Hell, I'd barely notice if I took it out of my paypal money. But still. I'd rather have: a bottle of booze, a few decent lunches, than pay for an MLG arena event that I wasn't even around to watch half of. Well said. I think all of this save esports stuff is absurd. MLG's model is simply not sustainable. Considering that they have poured through millions in the last few years, and the audience for this is still so small, I don't see any way they can possibly turn a profit and survive. If you want to pay for the arena because you really enjoy MLG and wanted to see the content--great, good for you. But don't criticize the rest of us for not wanting to throw out money into a sinking ship just for the sake of it. | ||
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sc2superfan101
3583 Posts
but i didn't want to. i don't think one weekend of SC2 is worth 20 bucks. i could get an entire year of GSL (which is waaay higher quality) for ~$100. the product was not worth the price, in my opinion. and while i may love sc2, i don't care one bit about "e-sports" other than sc2, and i don't care one bit about supporting a thing that can't support itself. i will only buy GSL because only GSL, in my humble opinion, gives me a product that is worth the price. if that means all these other tournaments go away... well, that sucks. if they can't support themselves without my buying the ticket, then in a purely economic sense, they shouldn't be there. of course i will watch it if it's free and i have time. because then they've given me a product that is worth the cost. no offense to MLG, but i don't think it's worth the cost. they "gave me" free content because they decided to. i didn't tell them to "give me" free content. i didn't have any power over that decision. and i am not going to pay for sub-par quality. i don't care if they can't up the quality if i don't give them money. business doesn't work like that. you up the quality and then i give you the money. if i recieve proof that the quality of MLG is equal to that of an entire year of GSL, than i'll shell out some money. until then... i'll stick with the best. (and if they asked me i would tell them that $20 is way too high for the product they were offering. not because i want to complain, but because it let's them know how the potential-customer feels about it, which is arguably as important as what the customer thinks about it.) | ||
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Spieltor
327 Posts
On February 28 2012 02:47 Snuggles wrote: Okay I really want to voice out my opinion on this one guys. One particular post on the MLG feedback forums made me a little upset with people's attitude towards paying for content that costs a TON to produce. It went along the lines of "You prioritize pizza over a weekend of MLG?" from Guy A to "What you seriously prioritize MLG over pizza are you kidding me?" from Guy B, and obviously they were referring to the cost of a pizza to the MLG pass (although you can make the useless comment that pizza is often around $15 rather than $20). I bought the pass, and I'm not a very generous guy when it comes to handing out money. But after reflecting on what SC2 meant to me, and how much I love the Esports scene, I wanted to give back. I want E-Sports to have a better future. Priorities Look I get that we all have different priorities when it comes to spending money. We don't all share the same income, and we don't all value everything in the same way. But from my point of view I like to label products based on what they are really worth. Let's take a look at the pizza. Requires some labor, some cooking materials, a pizza box to in case it inside- probably cost around more or less than $10 to make, I don't know, I'm no pizza guru but you get the point. Let's put the MLG Winter Arena in our problem. So we have a huge production staff, a well prepared and managed live stream, the building they played in, the players, the casters - and we get to soak it all in for $20. We got the chance to watch Nestea play, we got the chance to listen to Tastosis cast- LIVE. Under normal everyday circumstances, you can't do that. Of course before we've been practically gifted with these free streams showcasing their casting and their play- but really if they decided from the get go to not create free streams, which in my opinion they had every right to do so, we would be already accustomed to the paid model and have little or no qualms with it. Unless you don't work which means you shouldn't be complaining, stop with the entitlement whines. But hey I mean, if you really LOVE pizza and you revel in the fact some sleepy fat guy did a half-assed job making your pizza like he does everyday and think that is worth more than MLG- then good for you. In fact I wish plucking my nose hair made me feel like a God. Truth is people who make sub 15k a year with a family of four still purchase bullshit like iPads and iPhones with their crappy budget while their kids are running around in rags. It's just disgusting. But you could argue that the other extreme of being viciously frugal is more often than not, a good thing to be. So what we have here is the opportunity cost of $20. Depending on whether love or hate Starcraft, you may or may not find that $20 for a weekend of watching the best players in the world duke it out, is utter garbage. I happily paid $20 for the stream, because I love SC2, I play it, its one of the few things I look forward after a hard day at work or school- it makes me happier. My other friends on the other hand don't play, but just enjoy watching. They don't know all the strats, or any of the timings, they just like to watch competitive and intense action that these players produce- I get it, SC2 isn't a religion in which they would throw money at into a basket every weekend for them. My friends openly refused to purchase a pass and left it at that, I respect their decisions. However, if they started complaining about the fact that MLG was charging for the stream- I would've been pissed, like I am with some our dear members of TL. Your Income So you're a High School kid, a person with massive credit card debt, medical bills to pay, a bankrupt drug addict- w/e you have no way of shedding off some time and scrounging up $20 to watch SC2, make your point there and we'll say its okay. But wait you're actually a frugal college kid. You can afford $20 to watch a live content, but you choose to say you can't- why? Please reflect on yourself before you make that excuse. Do you have an apple laptop? Do you eat out every week? Got a smartphone? Do your jeans look nice? Depending on what your answer to those questions may be, you might not even have the right to say you're a frugal college student and not be able to buy a $20 pass. My friends would pool in their money to watch UFC games that go for much than $20, sure it's once every few months but we're dealing with the same model. Plus none of us actually did any MMA (el oh el) so we just wanted to be entertained by people beating on each other. UFC was low on our priority list and we still paid to watch so whats wrong with paying to watch Starcraft? What the quality isn't up there? You son of a bitch they've been giving us FREE content since the release of the game. How on earth are they going give us better quality with the limited resources they have? C'mon folks, I think we all know by now that things aren't going that well for MLG. My Point My post is aimed towards the people who are fans of SC2, those that watch free streams whenever they have the chance. Not to the people who graciously declined to buy a Pass, but to those who decided to rebel against it and demand a cheaper price. I'm not outright against lower pricing, since it will most definitely change the minds of many, but since this is their first time doing something like this I think that we're quite selfish to demand such things. Now you're going to be that angry customer that's always right. "I bought the pass, I don't feel like it was worth it, I demand it to be $10 cheaper!". Listen, and listen carefully. Do you really care about E-Sports? Do you really honestly love SC2 and its players? Do you want to watch White-Ra 3 years from now playing and being able to financially sustain himself or do you want to eat your popcorn and laugh as he and many other players, casters, organizations slowly fade away with their broken dreams? I think we need to revise that line we draw between caring about ourselves and how much we really care about E-Sports. Why not be above the typical dissatisfied consumer and consider the $20 MLG pass as an investment? Do you want a future for E-Sports? I did, and although I may not be as bright as Sundance when it came to growing E-Sports I did know of a way to help. That was by putting in my $20, my 4 - 6 cups of coffee, my night out in the city- I made an exchange and an investment to MLG with my $20. It's not a charity of course. But you know what when you look at things in the big picture, take into account that you're still getting content- $20 really isn't going to end the world for you. -------------------------- I usually don't voice my opinions like this anymore because people typically don't thoroughly read into my thoughts and consider both sides of the discussion. But after looking at the polls in the SC2 threads relating to MLG, I was just really really sad. I'm not mad or irritated, just sad that more people don't love SC2 as much as I did to purchase a pass to watch some incredible games. Hey sure, we can all agree that MLG could lower the price down a bit, but I think that only people who have purchased the pass are entitled to make that statement. "I would've purchased a pass if it was cheaper." How could you say that? There has never been a PPV model exactly like MLG's, this is the first time it has been done in this format. You bought a GSL ticket for $20 for an entire season? That and what MLG is doing is different, not entirely but still different enough for you to lose basis on making comparisons between the two. You simply don't know exactly what to expect, therefore you cannot make profound assumptions that you think should be laid down as the law. We all have different circumstances to justify our complaints like lag (which is must be on your end because I didn't have any issues on 1080p), poor casting, bad time zones- that's okay, no problem. But there were so many more people who outright just did not purchase a pass. Which I found upsetting because I honestly don't know if our scene can last much longer when the majority of our community is constantly demanding free content. I could go on for ages about this, and surely there are some points I have missed, but I still wanted to say something and I hope you guys give some good discussion. I'll edit later for typos since I always make them... fully agreed. p[eople are feeling entitled to free content or cheaper content. I'm not really sure why people go off the handle to bitch and moan about something they don't like. In fact, the WORST thing people can do in the situation of things they believe are WRONG or TOO EXPENSIVE is to bitch and moan like no other to the creators of the content, and then just buy it anyway. Like WoW or SC2 Hots or SC2 WoL into Hots if you find your money to have been wasted by one part of it, and you don't like the product, why buy a second part of it hoping it gets better? you cant gripe endlessly about a product and t hen shell out money for it anyway and expect the companies who make products to take you seriously ,because you just proved that you're a hypocrite and a slave to trends and brand names, and not an actual self driven consumer who can ABSTAIN from a product. Dollars are votes. Anyone who doesn't think that is a fool. There's no need to bitch and moan constantly about something. State your problem with a "business model" or product, DONT BUY IT, and then just keep quiet and let dollars do the talking after. Don't you guys notice that the desire to "keep up with the joneses" (or really everyone in pop culture buying the pop video games and pop electronics), is what allows companies to produce shittier and shittier products? If you're part o the problem you're not part of the solution. "Non-cooperation with evil is as much a duty as is cooperation with good." Gandhi, Mahatma he might also have said not buying bad businesses and products is as much a duty as buying good businesses and products, if he'd been a materialist consumer. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death | ||
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Kleinmuuhg
Vanuatu4091 Posts
- Didnt want to deal with the shenanigans for paying (dont have paypal or credit card ..) - More important: i dont have the internet connection for streaming :D | ||
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
On February 28 2012 03:21 TheToast wrote: Well said. I think all of this save esports stuff is absurd. MLG's model is simply not sustainable. Considering that they have poured through millions in the last few years, and the audience for this is still so small, I don't see any way they can possibly turn a profit and survive. If you want to pay for the arena because you really enjoy MLG and wanted to see the content--great, good for you. But don't criticize the rest of us for not wanting to throw out money into a sinking ship just for the sake of it. I don't want you to feel guilty. I respect people's decision to not buy a ticket, people have different priorities. I'm not attacking you. Here's a fictitious scenario to better help you guys understand what I'm trying to get at. I'm in line with 3 other guys to buy a burger from a new burger joint. The burger is $6. Guy A - Hmm $6 seems like a bit much, but I guess I'll try one. Me - $6 bucks huh, yeah it does seem kind of expensive. But I LOVE Burgers, I mean I usually get it for cheaper but who knows what this one might taste like. Plus they're just starting out, I'll consider my extra 2 bucks as tip. Guy B - Are you fucking kidding me? $6? Fuck this shit, why the fuck would you overcharge so much when I could get it cheaper? Everyone who buys this shit is a tool, I bet you'll be biting into a rat when you sink your teeth into that burger. I'm out. Guy C - Mmm $6 is a bit much for me, I'll pass. -------- After the meal Guy A - Wasn't too bad of a burger, there's definitely room for improvement. I'd most certainly buy it again at a slightly cheaper price. Me - Hmm not quite the $6 I thought it'd be. But hey I at least I had my favorite meal and did my part in their grand opening. Guy B - You guys are idiots, I'll just break into the restaurant later tonight and get some burgers for free. They should have just set up a stand on the street and handed them out. ---- 1 week later Guy C - Oh they brought it down to $4. Nice I think I'll get one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like Guy A and Guy C, but I'm upset with Guy B. I hope this clears things up. I'll reiterate until you guys understand. | ||
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ranshaked
United States870 Posts
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Xenocide_Knight
Korea (South)2625 Posts
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DamageControL
United States4222 Posts
On February 28 2012 03:38 Snuggles wrote: I don't want you to feel guilty. I respect people's decision to not buy a ticket, people have different priorities. I'm not attacking you. Here's a fictitious scenario to better help you guys understand what I'm trying to get at. I'm in line with 3 other guys to buy a burger from a new burger joint. The burger is $6. Guy A - Hmm $6 seems like a bit much, but I guess I'll try one. Me - $6 bucks huh, yeah it does seem kind of expensive. But I LOVE Burgers, I mean I usually get it for cheaper but who knows what this one might taste like. Plus they're just starting out, I'll consider my extra 2 bucks as tip. Guy B - Are you fucking kidding me? $6? Fuck this shit, why the fuck would you overcharge so much when I could get it cheaper? Everyone who buys this shit is a tool, I bet you'll be biting into a rat when you sink your teeth into that burger. I'm out. Guy C - Mmm $6 is a bit much for me, I'll pass. -------- After the meal Guy A - Wasn't too bad of a burger, there's definitely room for improvement. I'd most certainly buy it again at a slightly cheaper price. Me - Hmm not quite the $6 I thought it'd be. But hey I at least I had my favorite meal and did my part in their grand opening. Guy B - You guys are idiots, I'll just break into the restaurant later tonight and get some burgers for free. They should have just set up a stand on the street and handed them out. ---- 1 week later Guy C - Oh they brought it down to $4. Nice I think I'll get one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like Guy A and Guy C, but I'm upset with Guy B. I hope this clears things up. I'll reiterate until you guys understand. Thank you for graciously treating me like an idiot. Allow me to explain why I felt guilted: My post is aimed towards the people who are fans of SC2, those that watch free streams whenever they have the chance [...] to those who decided to rebel against it and demand a cheaper price. I'm not outright against lower pricing, since it will most definitely change the minds of many, but since this is their first time doing something like this I think that we're quite selfish to demand such things. [...] Listen, and listen carefully. Do you really care about E-Sports? Do you really honestly love SC2 and its players? Do you want to watch White-Ra 3 years from now playing and being able to financially sustain himself or do you want to eat your popcorn and laugh as he and many other players, casters, organizations slowly fade away with their broken dreams? edit: guy below me says it better. But your rhetoric in the last sections are a series of loaded rhetorical questions that seem designed to feel guilty that we didn't do our part. | ||
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TheToast
United States4808 Posts
My post is aimed towards the people who are fans of SC2, those that watch free streams whenever they have the chance. Not to the people who graciously declined to buy a Pass, but to those who decided to rebel against it and demand a cheaper price. I'm not outright against lower pricing, since it will most definitely change the minds of many, but since this is their first time doing something like this I think that we're quite selfish to demand such things. Sounds to me like you are upset with "Guy C". Now I do not support pirating/stealing/restreaming/or otherwise viewing MLG's content without paying for it. That is very detrimental to this industry and is also grossly immoral. I have no arguments there. But you make the point that MLG isn't a charity case; but you sure seem to be treating it like one. Why should people pay for something they don't feel is worth the money? That's the free market in action, people set prices by determining what something is worth to them. I'll say it again, MLG's model is completely unsustainable. NASL do basically the same thing MLG does with a fraction of the staff and overhead. While I loved watching the live MLG events over the past year (I think I only missed like one?) there's realistically no reason in this industry why we need massive sprawling conventions to watch people play Starcraft. Is it exciting? Hell yes. Is it sustainable? No way. MLG has a right to charge what they want, but the customers ultimaltely have the final say in what is and is not worth the money. Spending money "for teh esports" is crazy; what you have at that point isn't an industry. | ||
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Battleaxe
United States843 Posts
I had an analogy I was going to attempt to use comparing the PPV model to my views on piracy, but I'm just gonna say that until it's worth it, I'm not going to pay for it. If there's a way I can get it for free until it becomes worth the price point, then that's how I'll be watching. | ||
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Full.tilt
United Kingdom1709 Posts
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Snuggles
United States1865 Posts
Sorry my example may have rubbed you the wrong way, I just like typing hypothetical situations like that. You shouldn't be feeling guilty. you explained that you would prefer to buy booze than an MLG pass, you have different priorities. I stand by what I said in the OP, and I am willing to apologize if I made a mistake and misunderstood something. But I'm still against people who demanded a lower price before even trying out the product. Now obviously voicing your opinion is reasonable, but outright demanding it is where you're drawing the line, hence my extreme example. True there really is no difference in the reality of it all, but it strikes me as just wrong. If you're that adamant about watching Starcraft yet refuse to pay for it, then what is the purpose of going on an insane rant about $20 being too high. Maybe what I have briefly stated in my OP makes me sound like a hypocrite, but this is how I really feel. @ TheToast It's not a charity but at the same time how the hell are they going to keep providing content with consumers who have that kind of attitude? They're already struggling with the models they've been using the past year are they not? Yes $20 for 3 days online streams is unsustainable- I agree. But there certainly needs to be a change, and that change is going to come in the form of us paying for more. It's not easy to take the side of Pro PPV without being made out to be a charity promoter, because it's just that easy to do so. I'm just upset with Guy B guys, sure Guy B and C are doing the same thing essentially in the beginning, but their attitudes are different. | ||
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Golbat
United States499 Posts
I don't know about everybody else, but I eat pizza quite often, and if I skipped four pizzas a year (15*4=60 plus tax and tip, so probably around 80ish dollars) for 12 days of extremely high-quality SC2 action, not only am I increasing the value I get from those 80 dollars, but I'm also cutting a few calories in the process (>Implying I'm not going to be snacking like a mofo during the whole thing anyways  ). Seems like a good deal to me. I'm not "throwing" money to MLG, I'm just making a more economic decision. That's how I see it. On February 28 2012 03:54 TheToast wrote: This is what you wrote: Sounds to me like you are upset with "Guy C". Now I do not support pirating/stealing/restreaming/or otherwise viewing MLG's content without paying for it. That is very detrimental to this industry and is also grossly immoral. I have no arguments there. But you make the point that MLG isn't a charity case; but you sure seem to be treating it like one. Why should people pay for something they don't feel is worth the money? That's the free market in action, people set prices by determining what something is worth to them. I'll say it again, MLG's model is completely unsustainable. NASL do basically the same thing MLG does with a fraction of the staff and overhead. While I loved watching the live MLG events over the past year (I think I only missed like one?) there's realistically no reason in this industry why we need massive sprawling conventions to watch people play Starcraft. Is it exciting? Hell yes. Is it sustainable? No way. MLG has a right to charge what they want, but the customers ultimaltely have the final say in what is and is not worth the money. Spending money "for teh esports" is crazy; what you have at that point isn't an industry. He's definitely upset with "Guy B" the one who is loudly and aggressively demanding a lower price, and then finding a workaround so he can just get the burger for free. "Guy C" is the guy who simply said "6 is too much, but 4 is low enough that i'm now willing to pay" He wasn't belligerent about the price of the burger, nor did he steal a burger, he simply didn't buy a burger. | ||
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