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Okay I really want to voice out my opinion on this one guys. One particular post on the MLG feedback forums made me a little upset with people's attitude towards paying for content that costs a TON to produce. It went along the lines of "You prioritize pizza over a weekend of MLG?" from Guy A to "What you seriously prioritize MLG over pizza are you kidding me?" from Guy B, and obviously they were referring to the cost of a pizza to the MLG pass (although you can make the useless comment that pizza is often around $15 rather than $20).
I bought the pass, and I'm not a very generous guy when it comes to handing out money. But after reflecting on what SC2 meant to me, and how much I love the Esports scene, I wanted to give back. I want E-Sports to have a better future.
Priorities
Look I get that we all have different priorities when it comes to spending money. We don't all share the same income, and we don't all value everything in the same way. But from my point of view I like to label products based on what they are really worth.
Let's take a look at the pizza. Requires some labor, some cooking materials, a pizza box to in case it inside- probably cost around more or less than $10 to make, I don't know, I'm no pizza guru but you get the point. Let's put the MLG Winter Arena in our problem. So we have a huge production staff, a well prepared and managed live stream, the building they played in, the players, the casters - and we get to soak it all in for $20. We got the chance to watch Nestea play, we got the chance to listen to Tastosis cast- LIVE. Under normal everyday circumstances, you can't do that. Of course before we've been practically gifted with these free streams showcasing their casting and their play- but really if they decided from the get go to not create free streams, which in my opinion they had every right to do so, we would be already accustomed to the paid model and have little or no qualms with it. Unless you don't work which means you shouldn't be complaining, stop with the entitlement whines.
But hey I mean, if you really LOVE pizza and you revel in the fact some sleepy fat guy did a half-assed job making your pizza like he does everyday and think that is worth more than MLG- then good for you. In fact I wish plucking my nose hair made me feel like a God.
Truth is people who make sub 15k a year with a family of four still purchase bullshit like iPads and iPhones with their crappy budget while their kids are running around in rags. It's just disgusting. But you could argue that the other extreme of being viciously frugal is more often than not, a good thing to be.
So what we have here is the opportunity cost of $20. Depending on whether love or hate Starcraft, you may or may not find that $20 for a weekend of watching the best players in the world duke it out, is utter garbage. I happily paid $20 for the stream, because I love SC2, I play it, its one of the few things I look forward after a hard day at work or school- it makes me happier. My other friends on the other hand don't play, but just enjoy watching. They don't know all the strats, or any of the timings, they just like to watch competitive and intense action that these players produce- I get it, SC2 isn't a religion in which they would throw money at into a basket every weekend for them. My friends openly refused to purchase a pass and left it at that, I respect their decisions.
However, if they started complaining about the fact that MLG was charging for the stream- I would've been pissed, like I am with some our dear members of TL.
Your Income
So you're a High School kid, a person with massive credit card debt, medical bills to pay, a bankrupt drug addict- w/e you have no way of shedding off some time and scrounging up $20 to watch SC2, make your point there and we'll say its okay. But wait you're actually a frugal college kid. You can afford $20 to watch a live content, but you choose to say you can't- why? Please reflect on yourself before you make that excuse. Do you have an apple laptop? Do you eat out every week? Got a smartphone? Do your jeans look nice? Depending on what your answer to those questions may be, you might not even have the right to say you're a frugal college student and not be able to buy a $20 pass.
My friends would pool in their money to watch UFC games that go for much than $20, sure it's once every few months but we're dealing with the same model. Plus none of us actually did any MMA (el oh el) so we just wanted to be entertained by people beating on each other. UFC was low on our priority list and we still paid to watch so whats wrong with paying to watch Starcraft? What the quality isn't up there? You son of a bitch they've been giving us FREE content since the release of the game. How on earth are they going give us better quality with the limited resources they have? C'mon folks, I think we all know by now that things aren't going that well for MLG.
My Point
My post is aimed towards the people who are fans of SC2, those that watch free streams whenever they have the chance. Not to the people who graciously declined to buy a Pass, but to those who decided to rebel against it and demand a cheaper price. I'm not outright against lower pricing, since it will most definitely change the minds of many, but since this is their first time doing something like this I think that we're quite selfish to demand such things.
Now you're going to be that angry customer that's always right. "I bought the pass, I don't feel like it was worth it, I demand it to be $10 cheaper!".
Listen, and listen carefully.
Do you really care about E-Sports? Do you really honestly love SC2 and its players? Do you want to watch White-Ra 3 years from now playing and being able to financially sustain himself or do you want to eat your popcorn and laugh as he and many other players, casters, organizations slowly fade away with their broken dreams?
I think we need to revise that line we draw between caring about ourselves and how much we really care about E-Sports. Why not be above the typical dissatisfied consumer and consider the $20 MLG pass as an investment? Do you want a future for E-Sports?
I did, and although I may not be as bright as Sundance when it came to growing E-Sports I did know of a way to help. That was by putting in my $20, my 4 - 6 cups of coffee, my night out in the city- I made an exchange and an investment to MLG with my $20. It's not a charity of course. But you know what when you look at things in the big picture, take into account that you're still getting content- $20 really isn't going to end the world for you.
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I usually don't voice my opinions like this anymore because people typically don't thoroughly read into my thoughts and consider both sides of the discussion. But after looking at the polls in the SC2 threads relating to MLG, I was just really really sad. I'm not mad or irritated, just sad that more people don't love SC2 as much as I did to purchase a pass to watch some incredible games. Hey sure, we can all agree that MLG could lower the price down a bit, but I think that only people who have purchased the pass are entitled to make that statement. "I would've purchased a pass if it was cheaper." How could you say that? There has never been a PPV model exactly like MLG's, this is the first time it has been done in this format. You bought a GSL ticket for $20 for an entire season? That and what MLG is doing is different, not entirely but still different enough for you to lose basis on making comparisons between the two. You simply don't know exactly what to expect, therefore you cannot make profound assumptions that you think should be laid down as the law.
We all have different circumstances to justify our complaints like lag (which is must be on your end because I didn't have any issues on 1080p), poor casting, bad time zones- that's okay, no problem. But there were so many more people who outright just did not purchase a pass. Which I found upsetting because I honestly don't know if our scene can last much longer when the majority of our community is constantly demanding free content.
I could go on for ages about this, and surely there are some points I have missed, but I still wanted to say something and I hope you guys give some good discussion. I'll edit later for typos since I always make them...
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United Kingdom20168 Posts
Still in school, no job opportunities for years to come, in the end there are things simply worth more to me than blowing $80-120 a year for MLG arenas. What if i want to use that money to hit a 3 year upgrade cycle on motherboard/cpu/RAM so i am not left in the dark ages?
I think a lot of people are in the same place.
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I couldn't care less about the future of e-sports, I'm just here to play starcraft. I don't pay to download movies, tv, music, why live sc2? Especially when it lags to hell, and there are a million other places to watch live sc2 lag-free.
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Amen 5/5
On February 28 2012 02:51 mynameisgreat11 wrote: I couldn't care less about the future of e-sports, I'm just here to play starcraft. I don't pay to download movies, tv, music, why live sc2? Especially when it lags to hell, and there are a million other places to watch live sc2 lag-free.
Because those things aren't niche content in the crucial first years of their existence.
I agree that our entire economic model for artistic production is broken; while we're fixing that, why don't we all support esports so we can grow it and make it awesome?
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If it was like other MLGs then it wouldn't have been worth it for me to pay $20. About the future of SC2: you can be sure that it will still be around in 3-4 years when LoV comes out. Its longevity after that will depend on whether Blizzard takes their heads out of their asses, not whether we pour money into it.
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Look, I'm not going to shit on you for buying the pass. That's your choice as a consumer. I refuse to let you make me feel guilty for choosing to not buy the pass, however. Yeah, I could afford $20. It wouldn't kill my budget. Hell, I'd barely notice if I took it out of my paypal money. But still. I'd rather have: a bottle of booze, a few decent lunches, than pay for an MLG arena event that I wasn't even around to watch half of.
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Good points, snuggles I honestly can say I couldn't find the $20.00 this time, I donated a lot to GOM last year and I bought an MLG pass last season as well, but this time I couldn't do it. I'll try and get my act together so I can watch in the future though.
"But hey I mean, if you really LOVE pizza and you revel in the fact some sleepy fat guy did a half-assed job making your pizza like he does everyday and think that is worth more than MLG- then good for you. In fact I wish plucking my nose hair made me feel like a God."
Good paragraph, lol, that was awesome.
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If they fixed the streamlag and set it for 240/360/480/720/1080p rates instead of 1 horribly laggy stream that my 15mb/s bandwith speed cant even handle apparently? Then I'd rebuy but it was awful to watch, I had to watch vods.
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I'm a college student and I had ~$110 to last from last friday until March 9th. I couldn't afford it TT
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On February 28 2012 02:51 sam!zdat wrote:Amen 5/5 Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 02:51 mynameisgreat11 wrote: I couldn't care less about the future of e-sports, I'm just here to play starcraft. I don't pay to download movies, tv, music, why live sc2? Especially when it lags to hell, and there are a million other places to watch live sc2 lag-free. Because those things aren't niche content in the crucial first years of their existence. I agree that our entire economic model for artistic production is broken; while we're fixing that, why don't we all support esports so we can grow it and make it awesome?
I think what it comes down to is whether or not you want to invest in the future of video games/e-sports. Personally, like I said, I couldn't care less. I'm sure I will grow sick of sc2 long before the ladder shuts down to inactivity.
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I wonder how many people bought MLG pass to "prove" they love Starcraft more than everyone else.
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I want E-Sports to have a better future.
I too want that. I want E-Sports to be as popular as basketball. And for $20 I can get more than one month of NBA + Euroleague + my local league + tones of other programmes, movies and so on. I am talking cable TV ofcourse. I do not want E-Sports to be only for hardcore StarCrafters who would handle so much money just for one weekend. Thats why I did not pay nor watched. And yes, I'd rather go our for pizza with my gf or friends, if you brought that up. Or watch a movie in a cinema. Or buy a book. Or spend it on 1564163546 other things I like at least as much as I like StarCraft.
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On February 28 2012 02:49 Cyro wrote: Still in school, no job opportunities for years to come, in the end there are things simply worth more to me than blowing $80-120 a year for MLG arenas. What if i want to use that money to hit a 3 year upgrade cycle on motherboard/cpu/RAM so i am not left in the dark ages?
I think a lot of people are in the same place. you can't work and go to school in UK?
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The point for not paying 20$ is its not sustainable over a long term. 20$ is far too expensive for the amount of content you get. People for the first couple will be like hey, its expensive for what it is, but hey SUPPORT ESPORTZ. But after people realize that they only end up watching maybe half the matches over a 2.5 day span (finals is a half day) for 20$ they start to question its value.
Then if people are so willing to support it other tournaments start doing it too. Then you have a tournament every odd weekend for 10-20$, and you pick and chose which to watch and then they all end up getting like way less viewers than before when they were free. This is turn pisses off all the sponsors. For example promoter says , "Hey we got 50k unique viewers this weekend, thats more than last time!", Sponsor is like awesome I'll support you again next time. But when people have to spread across different tournaments because of PPV, its more like, "Hey, we only got 20k viewers now that we starting PPV, but at least were bringing ourselves profit?", sponsor is like, "Bitch please im losing interest FAST".
There is a difference between MLGs business plan and GSL's. First GSL offers it all for free live, in low quality. Also GSL is a month and a half affair not 3 days, and its still cheaper than 20$ MLG PPV. In conclusion, don't support it for any other reason than you want to because you feel its a fair price for the amount of enjoyment you get out it. Supporting it even half for supporting e-sports will just hurt the longevity of e-sports as eventually the support will end if the value isn't their for the customer.
EDIT* Also the end of your post you ask how they can give us better content if there not charging, well they could learn from the other free streams. Dreamhack ipl etc etc. Which happen to have amazing quality all for the price of nothing.
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On February 28 2012 02:55 NeMeSiS3 wrote: If they fixed the streamlag and set it for 240/360/480/720/1080p rates instead of 1 horribly laggy stream that my 15mb/s bandwith speed cant even handle apparently? Then I'd rebuy but it was awful to watch, I had to watch vods.
They did have all those options and for the most part, most people didn't have much lag. I don't know where you were watching it from, but it obviously wasn't the official stream.
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If you paid $20 simply to support esports, you are indeed part of a small and silly minority.
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The main differences between pizza and MLG is that pizza is delicious and covered in pepperonis, whereas MLG is not. I would recommend that the producers of MLG cover their SC2 games in delicious pepperonis. This will undoubtedly sell more tickets and save ESPORTS.
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On February 28 2012 03:01 Piste wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 02:49 Cyro wrote: Still in school, no job opportunities for years to come, in the end there are things simply worth more to me than blowing $80-120 a year for MLG arenas. What if i want to use that money to hit a 3 year upgrade cycle on motherboard/cpu/RAM so i am not left in the dark ages?
I think a lot of people are in the same place. you can't work and go to school in UK?
There are plenty of jobs for 14-16 year olds in the UK, McDonalds are always hiring and take anyone over 15 and you can get a paper round at the age of 12 that will give you about £15 per week and there are plenty more opportunities out there. kids these days however don't seem to get jobs as early as they did when i was that age. Strange when you think about it, I grew up through one of the most prosperous eras in history and even though my parents could afford to give me money, I was still encouraged to work... now when the economy is terrible, kids seem to keep leeching off their parents for longer and longer.... oh well
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On February 28 2012 03:04 bonifaceviii wrote: If you paid $20 simply to support esports, you are indeed part of a small and silly minority.
ty for calling me silly.
it wasnt obviously the only reason, but a reason as well.
im happy i payed those 20$ (guys, think about what u pay 20$ for every month...), the only thing that bothers me is that i couldve watched it for free as well very easily, that makes me sad ./
still, ill play the next arena as well, if the price doesnt get raised.
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How I feel about it is very simple. If you want to watch the games and content for the weekend pay $20. If you don't then that's fine too. I never want to look at MLG or other huge organizations as something I should just throw money at because I like Starcraft. It's not a charity.
I didn't pay because I have never felt the need to pay for Starcraft content because there is so much to keep me occupied. I buy things that I feel I really want and donate to things that really need. MLG fits neither category.
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On February 28 2012 02:49 Cyro wrote: now when the economy is terrible, kids seem to keep leeching off their parents for longer and longer.... oh well
...ummm, maybe that's because the economy is terrible, so there aren't really all of these jobs you think there are?
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On February 28 2012 03:04 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 02:55 NeMeSiS3 wrote: If they fixed the streamlag and set it for 240/360/480/720/1080p rates instead of 1 horribly laggy stream that my 15mb/s bandwith speed cant even handle apparently? Then I'd rebuy but it was awful to watch, I had to watch vods. They did have all those options and for the most part, most people didn't have much lag. I don't know where you were watching it from, but it obviously wasn't the official stream.
Switching screen rates was possible but still lagged like hell ( didn't try 240/360 but it should work on 480 too ). Last time I spent money on this mlg crap for sure. They have technical issues much more often than other tournaments. Don't know why I have kept watching their crap and it was well played to make our gold and silver memberships useless. "Whole year of MLG events" and then you have to spit out 20$. It's lag free only in US and some EU countries.
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I'm going to be completely honest, I could afford to pay for it. I just won't when:
A. There is similar content free of charge. B. Ways for me to 'pirate' it.
Being smart with money is a good thing in my opinion. Yes this is only $20, but only $20 multiple times adds up.
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On February 28 2012 03:04 emythrel wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 02:55 NeMeSiS3 wrote: If they fixed the streamlag and set it for 240/360/480/720/1080p rates instead of 1 horribly laggy stream that my 15mb/s bandwith speed cant even handle apparently? Then I'd rebuy but it was awful to watch, I had to watch vods. They did have all those options and for the most part, most people didn't have much lag. I don't know where you were watching it from, but it obviously wasn't the official stream.
Not true, a lot of people were lagging. For the majority of the tournament there was a 5-10 second lag spike about every minute for me.
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for a lot of people it's not actually about if they CAN spare 20 bucks, but if they WANT to.
E.G. I am at burger king at the cheeseburger suddenly costs 3,50 $, I probably won't get it, even though I am hungry and can spare the money. It used to cost a dollar, now it's a lot more and the product hasn't improved. If the pizza you talk about cost 30 instead of 15 bucks, would you buy it? Or would you choose another pizza place?
Not paying 20$ bucks is actually not bad for Esports. It may be bad for MLG, but it just shows that PPV at that price is not a valid business strategy. Imagine ALL tournaments would suddenly be PPV, don't you see how this would rip Esports apart?
IMO, advertisement + Premium Stream Extra money is the way to go. It's fair and more than enough people are willing to pay. I honestly don't think MLG made more money than they would have made with ad + prem. If they did, I guess it is valid and MLG will continue to go that way, which is sad IMO. Not because I don't want to pay for games, but I think it's the wrong way to grow Esports and I think it's the wrong way for MLG too.
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United States22154 Posts
For me this is the reason.
Quite simply I may not always have money, but I always want to be able to watch ongoing events, thus I don't support people without free streams, its as simple as that.
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On February 28 2012 03:04 bonifaceviii wrote: If you paid $20 simply to support esports, you are indeed part of a small and silly minority.
Well this is why I refrain from doing blogs like this. You don't read the entire blog (I don't blame you there really are better things to read) and make a snarky comment.
I'm just going to let you know that your comment doesn't contribute at all, you can take time to read my blog to see why, which is quite simple really.
I want to remind people that I'm not trying to make you guys feel guilty about not purchasing about a pass. What I said was that my post was aimed towards people who just did not purchase a Pass, and still complained about the $20 price tag. I mean if you bought $20 and began screaming and throwing your cereal at the computer monitor and then drenched yourself in milk in your instance of insanity- due to the high cost of the Pass, COOL! No really I mean it's okay.
We all have very valid reasons for not buying the pass. But some of us who choose to whine about it are the ones that upset me.
AND ITS NOT A CHARITY! I'm not mindlessly telling you all to throw your money, just give it extra thought. I mentioned that in my OP as well...
Since it's their first time they're doing this, $20 is not as unreasonable as $50- so why not? And I'm sure that there will be additional adjustments to change the pricing and the production because they have to in order to survive.
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On February 28 2012 02:53 DamageControL wrote: Look, I'm not going to shit on you for buying the pass. That's your choice as a consumer. I refuse to let you make me feel guilty for choosing to not buy the pass, however. Yeah, I could afford $20. It wouldn't kill my budget. Hell, I'd barely notice if I took it out of my paypal money. But still. I'd rather have: a bottle of booze, a few decent lunches, than pay for an MLG arena event that I wasn't even around to watch half of.
Well said.
I think all of this save esports stuff is absurd. MLG's model is simply not sustainable. Considering that they have poured through millions in the last few years, and the audience for this is still so small, I don't see any way they can possibly turn a profit and survive. If you want to pay for the arena because you really enjoy MLG and wanted to see the content--great, good for you. But don't criticize the rest of us for not wanting to throw out money into a sinking ship just for the sake of it.
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i could have probably budgeted my money better, and then i would have been able to pay for MLG. i could have not bought smokes, could've refrained from getting some lunch at Jack in the Box, could've done a hundred different things, and then i would've had plenty of money to pay for MLG.
but i didn't want to. i don't think one weekend of SC2 is worth 20 bucks. i could get an entire year of GSL (which is waaay higher quality) for ~$100. the product was not worth the price, in my opinion. and while i may love sc2, i don't care one bit about "e-sports" other than sc2, and i don't care one bit about supporting a thing that can't support itself. i will only buy GSL because only GSL, in my humble opinion, gives me a product that is worth the price. if that means all these other tournaments go away... well, that sucks. if they can't support themselves without my buying the ticket, then in a purely economic sense, they shouldn't be there. of course i will watch it if it's free and i have time. because then they've given me a product that is worth the cost. no offense to MLG, but i don't think it's worth the cost. they "gave me" free content because they decided to. i didn't tell them to "give me" free content. i didn't have any power over that decision. and i am not going to pay for sub-par quality. i don't care if they can't up the quality if i don't give them money. business doesn't work like that. you up the quality and then i give you the money. if i recieve proof that the quality of MLG is equal to that of an entire year of GSL, than i'll shell out some money. until then... i'll stick with the best.
(and if they asked me i would tell them that $20 is way too high for the product they were offering. not because i want to complain, but because it let's them know how the potential-customer feels about it, which is arguably as important as what the customer thinks about it.)
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On February 28 2012 02:47 Snuggles wrote: Okay I really want to voice out my opinion on this one guys. One particular post on the MLG feedback forums made me a little upset with people's attitude towards paying for content that costs a TON to produce. It went along the lines of "You prioritize pizza over a weekend of MLG?" from Guy A to "What you seriously prioritize MLG over pizza are you kidding me?" from Guy B, and obviously they were referring to the cost of a pizza to the MLG pass (although you can make the useless comment that pizza is often around $15 rather than $20).
I bought the pass, and I'm not a very generous guy when it comes to handing out money. But after reflecting on what SC2 meant to me, and how much I love the Esports scene, I wanted to give back. I want E-Sports to have a better future.
Priorities
Look I get that we all have different priorities when it comes to spending money. We don't all share the same income, and we don't all value everything in the same way. But from my point of view I like to label products based on what they are really worth.
Let's take a look at the pizza. Requires some labor, some cooking materials, a pizza box to in case it inside- probably cost around more or less than $10 to make, I don't know, I'm no pizza guru but you get the point. Let's put the MLG Winter Arena in our problem. So we have a huge production staff, a well prepared and managed live stream, the building they played in, the players, the casters - and we get to soak it all in for $20. We got the chance to watch Nestea play, we got the chance to listen to Tastosis cast- LIVE. Under normal everyday circumstances, you can't do that. Of course before we've been practically gifted with these free streams showcasing their casting and their play- but really if they decided from the get go to not create free streams, which in my opinion they had every right to do so, we would be already accustomed to the paid model and have little or no qualms with it. Unless you don't work which means you shouldn't be complaining, stop with the entitlement whines.
But hey I mean, if you really LOVE pizza and you revel in the fact some sleepy fat guy did a half-assed job making your pizza like he does everyday and think that is worth more than MLG- then good for you. In fact I wish plucking my nose hair made me feel like a God.
Truth is people who make sub 15k a year with a family of four still purchase bullshit like iPads and iPhones with their crappy budget while their kids are running around in rags. It's just disgusting. But you could argue that the other extreme of being viciously frugal is more often than not, a good thing to be.
So what we have here is the opportunity cost of $20. Depending on whether love or hate Starcraft, you may or may not find that $20 for a weekend of watching the best players in the world duke it out, is utter garbage. I happily paid $20 for the stream, because I love SC2, I play it, its one of the few things I look forward after a hard day at work or school- it makes me happier. My other friends on the other hand don't play, but just enjoy watching. They don't know all the strats, or any of the timings, they just like to watch competitive and intense action that these players produce- I get it, SC2 isn't a religion in which they would throw money at into a basket every weekend for them. My friends openly refused to purchase a pass and left it at that, I respect their decisions.
However, if they started complaining about the fact that MLG was charging for the stream- I would've been pissed, like I am with some our dear members of TL.
Your Income
So you're a High School kid, a person with massive credit card debt, medical bills to pay, a bankrupt drug addict- w/e you have no way of shedding off some time and scrounging up $20 to watch SC2, make your point there and we'll say its okay. But wait you're actually a frugal college kid. You can afford $20 to watch a live content, but you choose to say you can't- why? Please reflect on yourself before you make that excuse. Do you have an apple laptop? Do you eat out every week? Got a smartphone? Do your jeans look nice? Depending on what your answer to those questions may be, you might not even have the right to say you're a frugal college student and not be able to buy a $20 pass.
My friends would pool in their money to watch UFC games that go for much than $20, sure it's once every few months but we're dealing with the same model. Plus none of us actually did any MMA (el oh el) so we just wanted to be entertained by people beating on each other. UFC was low on our priority list and we still paid to watch so whats wrong with paying to watch Starcraft? What the quality isn't up there? You son of a bitch they've been giving us FREE content since the release of the game. How on earth are they going give us better quality with the limited resources they have? C'mon folks, I think we all know by now that things aren't going that well for MLG.
My Point
My post is aimed towards the people who are fans of SC2, those that watch free streams whenever they have the chance. Not to the people who graciously declined to buy a Pass, but to those who decided to rebel against it and demand a cheaper price. I'm not outright against lower pricing, since it will most definitely change the minds of many, but since this is their first time doing something like this I think that we're quite selfish to demand such things.
Now you're going to be that angry customer that's always right. "I bought the pass, I don't feel like it was worth it, I demand it to be $10 cheaper!".
Listen, and listen carefully.
Do you really care about E-Sports? Do you really honestly love SC2 and its players? Do you want to watch White-Ra 3 years from now playing and being able to financially sustain himself or do you want to eat your popcorn and laugh as he and many other players, casters, organizations slowly fade away with their broken dreams?
I think we need to revise that line we draw between caring about ourselves and how much we really care about E-Sports. Why not be above the typical dissatisfied consumer and consider the $20 MLG pass as an investment? Do you want a future for E-Sports?
I did, and although I may not be as bright as Sundance when it came to growing E-Sports I did know of a way to help. That was by putting in my $20, my 4 - 6 cups of coffee, my night out in the city- I made an exchange and an investment to MLG with my $20. It's not a charity of course. But you know what when you look at things in the big picture, take into account that you're still getting content- $20 really isn't going to end the world for you.
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I usually don't voice my opinions like this anymore because people typically don't thoroughly read into my thoughts and consider both sides of the discussion. But after looking at the polls in the SC2 threads relating to MLG, I was just really really sad. I'm not mad or irritated, just sad that more people don't love SC2 as much as I did to purchase a pass to watch some incredible games. Hey sure, we can all agree that MLG could lower the price down a bit, but I think that only people who have purchased the pass are entitled to make that statement. "I would've purchased a pass if it was cheaper." How could you say that? There has never been a PPV model exactly like MLG's, this is the first time it has been done in this format. You bought a GSL ticket for $20 for an entire season? That and what MLG is doing is different, not entirely but still different enough for you to lose basis on making comparisons between the two. You simply don't know exactly what to expect, therefore you cannot make profound assumptions that you think should be laid down as the law.
We all have different circumstances to justify our complaints like lag (which is must be on your end because I didn't have any issues on 1080p), poor casting, bad time zones- that's okay, no problem. But there were so many more people who outright just did not purchase a pass. Which I found upsetting because I honestly don't know if our scene can last much longer when the majority of our community is constantly demanding free content.
I could go on for ages about this, and surely there are some points I have missed, but I still wanted to say something and I hope you guys give some good discussion. I'll edit later for typos since I always make them...
fully agreed. p[eople are feeling entitled to free content or cheaper content.
I'm not really sure why people go off the handle to bitch and moan about something they don't like. In fact, the WORST thing people can do in the situation of things they believe are WRONG or TOO EXPENSIVE is to bitch and moan like no other to the creators of the content, and then just buy it anyway.
Like WoW or SC2 Hots or SC2 WoL into Hots if you find your money to have been wasted by one part of it, and you don't like the product, why buy a second part of it hoping it gets better?
you cant gripe endlessly about a product and t hen shell out money for it anyway and expect the companies who make products to take you seriously ,because you just proved that you're a hypocrite and a slave to trends and brand names, and not an actual self driven consumer who can ABSTAIN from a product.
Dollars are votes. Anyone who doesn't think that is a fool.
There's no need to bitch and moan constantly about something. State your problem with a "business model" or product, DONT BUY IT, and then just keep quiet and let dollars do the talking after.
Don't you guys notice that the desire to "keep up with the joneses" (or really everyone in pop culture buying the pop video games and pop electronics), is what allows companies to produce shittier and shittier products? If you're part o the problem you're not part of the solution.
"Non-cooperation with evil is as much a duty as is cooperation with good." Gandhi, Mahatma
he might also have said not buying bad businesses and products is as much a duty as buying good businesses and products, if he'd been a materialist consumer.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amusing_Ourselves_to_Death
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My reasons: - Didnt want to deal with the shenanigans for paying (dont have paypal or credit card ..) - More important: i dont have the internet connection for streaming :D
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On February 28 2012 03:21 TheToast wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 02:53 DamageControL wrote: Look, I'm not going to shit on you for buying the pass. That's your choice as a consumer. I refuse to let you make me feel guilty for choosing to not buy the pass, however. Yeah, I could afford $20. It wouldn't kill my budget. Hell, I'd barely notice if I took it out of my paypal money. But still. I'd rather have: a bottle of booze, a few decent lunches, than pay for an MLG arena event that I wasn't even around to watch half of. Well said. I think all of this save esports stuff is absurd. MLG's model is simply not sustainable. Considering that they have poured through millions in the last few years, and the audience for this is still so small, I don't see any way they can possibly turn a profit and survive. If you want to pay for the arena because you really enjoy MLG and wanted to see the content--great, good for you. But don't criticize the rest of us for not wanting to throw out money into a sinking ship just for the sake of it.
I don't want you to feel guilty. I respect people's decision to not buy a ticket, people have different priorities.
I'm not attacking you.
Here's a fictitious scenario to better help you guys understand what I'm trying to get at.
I'm in line with 3 other guys to buy a burger from a new burger joint. The burger is $6.
Guy A - Hmm $6 seems like a bit much, but I guess I'll try one.
Me - $6 bucks huh, yeah it does seem kind of expensive. But I LOVE Burgers, I mean I usually get it for cheaper but who knows what this one might taste like. Plus they're just starting out, I'll consider my extra 2 bucks as tip.
Guy B - Are you fucking kidding me? $6? Fuck this shit, why the fuck would you overcharge so much when I could get it cheaper? Everyone who buys this shit is a tool, I bet you'll be biting into a rat when you sink your teeth into that burger. I'm out.
Guy C - Mmm $6 is a bit much for me, I'll pass.
-------- After the meal
Guy A - Wasn't too bad of a burger, there's definitely room for improvement. I'd most certainly buy it again at a slightly cheaper price.
Me - Hmm not quite the $6 I thought it'd be. But hey I at least I had my favorite meal and did my part in their grand opening.
Guy B - You guys are idiots, I'll just break into the restaurant later tonight and get some burgers for free. They should have just set up a stand on the street and handed them out.
---- 1 week later
Guy C - Oh they brought it down to $4. Nice I think I'll get one.
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I like Guy A and Guy C, but I'm upset with Guy B. I hope this clears things up. I'll reiterate until you guys understand.
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The reason why I will not pay 20 to see these online events are te same reasons why I will not pay to watch any sport or event. If I could go see te event live, then I'd pay 20. I think it's outrageous to pay 20 for a weekend of Starcraft. That is 1/3rd of the actual game. I'd rather spend 20 on a bottle of liquor or 20 to go see a band live.
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This is what happens when they try to make a game successful by throwing money at it.
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On February 28 2012 03:38 Snuggles wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 03:21 TheToast wrote:On February 28 2012 02:53 DamageControL wrote: Look, I'm not going to shit on you for buying the pass. That's your choice as a consumer. I refuse to let you make me feel guilty for choosing to not buy the pass, however. Yeah, I could afford $20. It wouldn't kill my budget. Hell, I'd barely notice if I took it out of my paypal money. But still. I'd rather have: a bottle of booze, a few decent lunches, than pay for an MLG arena event that I wasn't even around to watch half of. Well said. I think all of this save esports stuff is absurd. MLG's model is simply not sustainable. Considering that they have poured through millions in the last few years, and the audience for this is still so small, I don't see any way they can possibly turn a profit and survive. If you want to pay for the arena because you really enjoy MLG and wanted to see the content--great, good for you. But don't criticize the rest of us for not wanting to throw out money into a sinking ship just for the sake of it. I don't want you to feel guilty. I respect people's decision to not buy a ticket, people have different priorities. I'm not attacking you. Here's a fictitious scenario to better help you guys understand what I'm trying to get at. I'm in line with 3 other guys to buy a burger from a new burger joint. The burger is $6. Guy A - Hmm $6 seems like a bit much, but I guess I'll try one. Me - $6 bucks huh, yeah it does seem kind of expensive. But I LOVE Burgers, I mean I usually get it for cheaper but who knows what this one might taste like. Plus they're just starting out, I'll consider my extra 2 bucks as tip. Guy B - Are you fucking kidding me? $6? Fuck this shit, why the fuck would you overcharge so much when I could get it cheaper? Everyone who buys this shit is a tool, I bet you'll be biting into a rat when you sink your teeth into that burger. I'm out. Guy C - Mmm $6 is a bit much for me, I'll pass. -------- After the meal Guy A - Wasn't too bad of a burger, there's definitely room for improvement. I'd most certainly buy it again at a slightly cheaper price. Me - Hmm not quite the $6 I thought it'd be. But hey I at least I had my favorite meal and did my part in their grand opening. Guy B - You guys are idiots, I'll just break into the restaurant later tonight and get some burgers for free. They should have just set up a stand on the street and handed them out. ---- 1 week later Guy C - Oh they brought it down to $4. Nice I think I'll get one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like Guy A and Guy C, but I'm upset with Guy B. I hope this clears things up. I'll reiterate until you guys understand. Thank you for graciously treating me like an idiot.
Allow me to explain why I felt guilted:
My post is aimed towards the people who are fans of SC2, those that watch free streams whenever they have the chance [...] to those who decided to rebel against it and demand a cheaper price. I'm not outright against lower pricing, since it will most definitely change the minds of many, but since this is their first time doing something like this I think that we're quite selfish to demand such things. [...]
Listen, and listen carefully.
Do you really care about E-Sports? Do you really honestly love SC2 and its players? Do you want to watch White-Ra 3 years from now playing and being able to financially sustain himself or do you want to eat your popcorn and laugh as he and many other players, casters, organizations slowly fade away with their broken dreams?
edit: guy below me says it better.
But your rhetoric in the last sections are a series of loaded rhetorical questions that seem designed to feel guilty that we didn't do our part.
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This is what you wrote:
My post is aimed towards the people who are fans of SC2, those that watch free streams whenever they have the chance. Not to the people who graciously declined to buy a Pass, but to those who decided to rebel against it and demand a cheaper price. I'm not outright against lower pricing, since it will most definitely change the minds of many, but since this is their first time doing something like this I think that we're quite selfish to demand such things.
Sounds to me like you are upset with "Guy C".
Now I do not support pirating/stealing/restreaming/or otherwise viewing MLG's content without paying for it. That is very detrimental to this industry and is also grossly immoral. I have no arguments there.
But you make the point that MLG isn't a charity case; but you sure seem to be treating it like one. Why should people pay for something they don't feel is worth the money? That's the free market in action, people set prices by determining what something is worth to them. I'll say it again, MLG's model is completely unsustainable. NASL do basically the same thing MLG does with a fraction of the staff and overhead. While I loved watching the live MLG events over the past year (I think I only missed like one?) there's realistically no reason in this industry why we need massive sprawling conventions to watch people play Starcraft. Is it exciting? Hell yes. Is it sustainable? No way. MLG has a right to charge what they want, but the customers ultimaltely have the final say in what is and is not worth the money. Spending money "for teh esports" is crazy; what you have at that point isn't an industry.
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Was not around all weekend to watch the tournament, wouldn't have bought it if I was. Did not think it would be worth $20, and had I been around I probably would have used that workaround or a restream.
I had an analogy I was going to attempt to use comparing the PPV model to my views on piracy, but I'm just gonna say that until it's worth it, I'm not going to pay for it. If there's a way I can get it for free until it becomes worth the price point, then that's how I'll be watching.
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Another negative from PPV, people suddenly turn all preachy and they now feel they are better because they paid $20 for something.
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@ DamageControl Sorry my example may have rubbed you the wrong way, I just like typing hypothetical situations like that.
You shouldn't be feeling guilty. you explained that you would prefer to buy booze than an MLG pass, you have different priorities. I stand by what I said in the OP, and I am willing to apologize if I made a mistake and misunderstood something. But I'm still against people who demanded a lower price before even trying out the product. Now obviously voicing your opinion is reasonable, but outright demanding it is where you're drawing the line, hence my extreme example. True there really is no difference in the reality of it all, but it strikes me as just wrong. If you're that adamant about watching Starcraft yet refuse to pay for it, then what is the purpose of going on an insane rant about $20 being too high.
Maybe what I have briefly stated in my OP makes me sound like a hypocrite, but this is how I really feel.
@ TheToast It's not a charity but at the same time how the hell are they going to keep providing content with consumers who have that kind of attitude? They're already struggling with the models they've been using the past year are they not? Yes $20 for 3 days online streams is unsustainable- I agree. But there certainly needs to be a change, and that change is going to come in the form of us paying for more. It's not easy to take the side of Pro PPV without being made out to be a charity promoter, because it's just that easy to do so.
I'm just upset with Guy B guys, sure Guy B and C are doing the same thing essentially in the beginning, but their attitudes are different.
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I managed to "find" a "bug" in the MLG viewer and catch Huk's last two matches on day three, and I must say that I was really impressed with the quality of content. If I had the time and money to pay for it, I really would have, and wish that I did. It was good shit. If the next MLG arena is still twenty dollars, you bet your ass i'll find a way to scrape the money together to watch it. I might even start saving up for it now. (No job currently, broke ass high school student, but I get lumps of money every now and again)
I don't know about everybody else, but I eat pizza quite often, and if I skipped four pizzas a year (15*4=60 plus tax and tip, so probably around 80ish dollars) for 12 days of extremely high-quality SC2 action, not only am I increasing the value I get from those 80 dollars, but I'm also cutting a few calories in the process (>Implying I'm not going to be snacking like a mofo during the whole thing anyways ).
Seems like a good deal to me. I'm not "throwing" money to MLG, I'm just making a more economic decision. That's how I see it.
On February 28 2012 03:54 TheToast wrote:This is what you wrote: Show nested quote + My post is aimed towards the people who are fans of SC2, those that watch free streams whenever they have the chance. Not to the people who graciously declined to buy a Pass, but to those who decided to rebel against it and demand a cheaper price. I'm not outright against lower pricing, since it will most definitely change the minds of many, but since this is their first time doing something like this I think that we're quite selfish to demand such things.
Sounds to me like you are upset with "Guy C". Now I do not support pirating/stealing/restreaming/or otherwise viewing MLG's content without paying for it. That is very detrimental to this industry and is also grossly immoral. I have no arguments there. But you make the point that MLG isn't a charity case; but you sure seem to be treating it like one. Why should people pay for something they don't feel is worth the money? That's the free market in action, people set prices by determining what something is worth to them. I'll say it again, MLG's model is completely unsustainable. NASL do basically the same thing MLG does with a fraction of the staff and overhead. While I loved watching the live MLG events over the past year (I think I only missed like one?) there's realistically no reason in this industry why we need massive sprawling conventions to watch people play Starcraft. Is it exciting? Hell yes. Is it sustainable? No way. MLG has a right to charge what they want, but the customers ultimaltely have the final say in what is and is not worth the money. Spending money "for teh esports" is crazy; what you have at that point isn't an industry.
He's definitely upset with "Guy B" the one who is loudly and aggressively demanding a lower price, and then finding a workaround so he can just get the burger for free.
"Guy C" is the guy who simply said "6 is too much, but 4 is low enough that i'm now willing to pay" He wasn't belligerent about the price of the burger, nor did he steal a burger, he simply didn't buy a burger.
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I've never wanted esports to die more than I do now. Just... gah. You paid 20 dollars for a tournament that you didn't even need to pay to watch because twitch is apparently broken. You paid 20 dollars for "80 hours of content" that you couldn't possibly consume before the vods of that content will be made free.
You are not the savior of esports, sorry.
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On February 28 2012 04:14 Snuggles wrote: But I'm still against people who demanded a lower price before even trying out the product.
Some people might not think of it as a new product and think that they tried it out before. I'll try to talk about burger because that seems to be popular : )
The Arena Event was not a new brand that I knew nothing of. In that case I might give the burger a try even if I feel it is slightly overpriced (BUT it seems to be counterintuitive as most new businesses tend to give their products away for a lower price to attract people.. in that regard sc2 and burger are just not comparable because most sc2 streams are free).
But with this event I knew it was a mlg event. Doesn't matter if there was no open bracket and group stage, it's still mlg with everything I experienced before. Burger Prince or whatever company could say: we now have a new supplier for our salad which is now delicious x5. When I always felt that the bread/buns were too dry I will expect it to be dry and might not buy the burger no matter what the new salad tastes like.
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On February 28 2012 03:00 BadBinky wrote: I wonder how many people bought MLG pass to "prove" they love Starcraft more than everyone else.
loll
so right. if MLG dies, someone else will arrange tourneys anyway. keep those ads comin i dont mind at all. PPV? GTFO.
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for me it has nothing to do with not appreciating something...
i am in EU and have not the greatest internet connection, so i can simply not fully utilize all the benefits that is offered by buying the $20. it may be that the entire production might be worth $20, but if you can only watch like a 3rd of all games and not even in 1080p it is not worth $20 to me.
id have loved to watch some games, but for only a couple $20 is too much.
just another perspective, and possible explanation why some may have not bought the pass.
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Did anyone notice that if you have adblock on you can basically watch the stream for free. I was tempted to pay the $20 but when I linked to the stream I was watching for free, having to refresh only about twice an hour. Not going to say this is the right thing to do, but if you want to do a ppv model, at least have the technology to prevent this sort of thing from happening. And for the $20, I don't think you get what you pay for.
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MLG isn't presenting something nobody's seen before, it's a SC2 tournament. People know how much they're willing to pay for those, and there are quite a lot of them. There's certainly no obligation to give money to something you don't think is worth the price.
This being the internet, MLG is in competition with the convenience of having access to their product for free. Real world examples do not translate perfectly to that sort of online situation. A better example would be whether you'd want to cough up a cinema fee for the extra ambiance/presentation, or just watch it free when it airs on TV later. Only with the internet, 'later' = 'now'.
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On February 28 2012 03:44 ranshaked wrote: The reason why I will not pay 20 to see these online events are te same reasons why I will not pay to watch any sport or event. If I could go see te event live, then I'd pay 20. I think it's outrageous to pay 20 for a weekend of Starcraft. That is 1/3rd of the actual game. I'd rather spend 20 on a bottle of liquor or 20 to go see a band live.
That's pretty reasonable, but if everyone feels that way then esports will never really be big. If people feel like watching an amazing sc2 tournament isn't worth that much, then there will never be much money in putting them on, and esports will always be small-time. And if people don't care enough about it to put down some money then it doesn't really deserve to be anything more.
I think people have been spoiled by free content, to the point where they now feel like they deserve to get it free. This PPV tournament could be a first step to changing that mindset.
Personally, I bought the pass. I didn't do it to "support esports", and I didn't do it to help anybody out. I just wanted to watch the games.
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On February 28 2012 04:40 ziggurat wrote: That's pretty reasonable, but if everyone feels that way then esports will never really be big. If esports relies on people making decisions they don't want to make, it's got bigger problems.
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On February 28 2012 03:38 Snuggles wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 03:21 TheToast wrote:On February 28 2012 02:53 DamageControL wrote: Look, I'm not going to shit on you for buying the pass. That's your choice as a consumer. I refuse to let you make me feel guilty for choosing to not buy the pass, however. Yeah, I could afford $20. It wouldn't kill my budget. Hell, I'd barely notice if I took it out of my paypal money. But still. I'd rather have: a bottle of booze, a few decent lunches, than pay for an MLG arena event that I wasn't even around to watch half of. Well said. I think all of this save esports stuff is absurd. MLG's model is simply not sustainable. Considering that they have poured through millions in the last few years, and the audience for this is still so small, I don't see any way they can possibly turn a profit and survive. If you want to pay for the arena because you really enjoy MLG and wanted to see the content--great, good for you. But don't criticize the rest of us for not wanting to throw out money into a sinking ship just for the sake of it. Here's a fictitious scenario to better help you guys understand what I'm trying to get at. I'm in line with 3 other guys to buy a burger from a new burger joint. The burger is $6. + Show Spoiler +Guy A - Hmm $6 seems like a bit much, but I guess I'll try one.
Me - $6 bucks huh, yeah it does seem kind of expensive. But I LOVE Burgers, I mean I usually get it for cheaper but who knows what this one might taste like. Plus they're just starting out, I'll consider my extra 2 bucks as tip.
Guy B - Are you fucking kidding me? $6? Fuck this shit, why the fuck would you overcharge so much when I could get it cheaper? Everyone who buys this shit is a tool, I bet you'll be biting into a rat when you sink your teeth into that burger. I'm out.
Guy C - Mmm $6 is a bit much for me, I'll pass.
-------- After the meal
Guy A - Wasn't too bad of a burger, there's definitely room for improvement. I'd most certainly buy it again at a slightly cheaper price.
Me - Hmm not quite the $6 I thought it'd be. But hey I at least I had my favorite meal and did my part in their grand opening.
Guy B - You guys are idiots, I'll just break into the restaurant later tonight and get some burgers for free. They should have just set up a stand on the street and handed them out.
---- 1 week later Guy C - Oh they brought it down to $4. Nice I think I'll get one. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I like Guy A and Guy C, but I'm upset with Guy B. I hope this clears things up. I'll reiterate until you guys understand. A more reasonable scenario is ------------------------------------------------------- New burger (Burger2) joint opens up right next to the current town favorite place (BurgerWay).
Everyone - Hey, let's try out this new burger place! Look! The sign is neon and really big! And in the window there's a sign that says "We're much better than the place next to us! We're basically the same but improved in everyway! We're the perfect burger joint!"
Everyone tries it. Guy A - I like this burger better than our regular place next door Guy B - I prefer our old burger place, BurgerWay Guy C - Why in gods name are they charging for this burger? Our old burger joint next door is free.. Me - Yea, this burger sucks in comparison anyway. Let's all go back to our old place next door.
Burger2 uses corporate muscle to try and have our place shut down. They buy up the entire parking lot and tow anyone who isn't coming to their burger joint. They put up giant street signs and pay to have the current burger places' taken down. They rename the street leading to both shops "Burger2". The irony is that Burger2 only opened because BurgerWay was so successful. Plus, they stole BurgerWay's secret formula and tried to improve on it.
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On February 28 2012 04:14 Snuggles wrote: @ TheToast It's not a charity but at the same time how the hell are they going to keep providing content with consumers who have that kind of attitude? They're already struggling with the models they've been using the past year are they not? Yes $20 for 3 days online streams is unsustainable- I agree. But there certainly needs to be a change, and that change is going to come in the form of us paying for more. It's not easy to take the side of Pro PPV without being made out to be a charity promoter, because it's just that easy to do so.
I have no problem with people taking the side of pro-PPV; but the attitude has to be that people should only pay for the product if they really want it. If someone isn't willing to spend more than $10, then they shouldn't spend more than $10.
Why is it us who need to change and start paying more? Why can't MLG stop spending so much? How come TSL3 was able to operate so well without millions of dollars? The big huge live LAN events are great if people are willing to pay for them, but it's becoming clear that many are not. The audience is still to small and the industry outside of Korea just isn't ready for that big of a step.
If you think about it, the foreign scene pretty much went from no esports to numerous giant events costing hundreds of thousands in 3 years. That's insane. The industry outside of Korean has had no time to develope or find a happy medium where they can be profitable and still offer good quality content. It's going to take a while, and--newsflash--some of the big tournaments are going to go belly up. The limited audience for esports can't support the 5 big tournaments in addition to other big name LANs like Dreamhack and Homestory, and all of the dozens of other tournaments and user streams.
At any given time there are a multitide of tournaments competing for the attention of a limited pool of viewers. At the time I am righting this, there is a Go4SC2 cup, EWM Ro64, EU Playhem, NASTL match, and something called the GamCreds Cup all streaming. That 5 tournaments all competing for the same pool of viewers--trying to divide them 5 ways. That's unsustainable, and I think when some of these smaller tournaments fall to the wayside the industry will be much more successful. Image if NASTL had all 31801 stream viewers right now; that's the kind of audience that could actually build a very profitable company.
Condensing has to happen, and when it does the industry is going to be much stronger. That's why, despite the fact that I love MLG and what they have done, I wouldn't be too sad to see them disappear. No one is making money right now, and charging people more isn't the answer. That's only going to lead to dividing an already divided view base even more. We need sustainability and stability in this industry about all else. The time of "growing esports" is over, now is the time for esports to show it can stand on its own legs; and I think we need to see some of these big tournaments drop off before we get to that point.
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On February 28 2012 04:41 Dfgj wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 04:40 ziggurat wrote: That's pretty reasonable, but if everyone feels that way then esports will never really be big. If esports relies on people making decisions they don't want to make, it's got bigger problems.
What this PPV tournament demonstrates is that not everyone feels that way. A lot of people are willing to pay $20. I get the impression (hopefully) that the tournament was close enough to being profitable that sponsors will see that there's real money is this budding "industry".
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You are the minority because of the work around, the fact that it was BOUND to be restreamed, and the fact that TONS of people just typed in MLGpro.com and got free HD content because MLG hadn't locked it for some reason...
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On February 28 2012 04:42 TheToast wrote: No one is making money right now, and charging people more isn't the answer. That's only going to lead to dividing an already divided view base even more. We need sustainability and stability in this industry about all else. The time of "growing esports" is over, now is the time for esports to show it can stand on its own legs; and I think we need to see some of these big tournaments drop off before we get to that point.
I think this is 100% backwards. The reason no one is making money is that everyone is giving their content away for free or almost free. Charging people more is the answer, because that is the only way a tournament can be profitable.
MLG has taken the unprecedented stop of charging a price high enough that they might actually turn a profit. If it turns out well then it can only be a good thing for everyone trying to make a living from SC2.
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On February 28 2012 03:04 bonifaceviii wrote: If you paid $20 simply to support esports, you are indeed part of a small and silly minority. Pretty much my thoughts. If you like the content enough to spend the money, no one is going to give you a hard time. If you bitch that other's aren't SUPPORTING ESPORTS like we're wealthy aristocrats with a pet project to dump money into, you should probably get off your high horse and realise most people think about the product their buying, not the uncertain future of it. It's up to the producers to make their product worth the price they're asking.
You're speaking on behalf of producers, in a weird and stupid way. If a producer actually said what you were saying it would be completely laughable. Why aren't you buying my product? Don't you understand the importance of giving me money so I can continue to make it?? It's like a writer complaining that some people don't get his or her work... That's not a legitimate complaint. Sure there will always be someone willing to pay for anything no matter how low quality or inferior compared to alternatives, but that doesn't justify why everyone should be so frivolous with their money. Actually paying to watch a video game... That idea is ludicrous to everyone but the most hardcore of your audience. Most people wouldn't pay to watch real sports unless they were hardcore into it. Most people just watch whatever is on cable TV. When you ask people to pay for a product which is not very good/only worth watching if you're bored and have nothing better to do/don't want to look for something better to do, then yes, those people who pay for it are going to be a minority and that's how it should be. SC2, like BW, needs to be a game of passion driven by people who are willing to just barely get by to make it work. It's not big business yet, and might never be.
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I think what the OP is trying to say, and ironically 90% of the responses in this thread proved his point is that people who don't think the MLG was worth the money and did not buy a ticket should not be responding to every thread about MLG yelling at everyone about how $20 is their life savings and they can't afford to blow it on watching the tournament. If you really feel that way there is no need to tell everyone about it, no one yells at you for not buying a ticket so you should extend the same courtesy to people who did buy the ticket and enjoyed the tournament. It's hilarious how mad people get when they don't get things for free, this entitled behaviour is disgusting sometimes. I do agree gold MLG members have a right to be mad though, that was a bitch move by MLG.
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My main issue was that they did not have a one day pass for $7 or so. I doubt it would add all that much more work for them, and then people who can't view all 3 days could potentially pay for the days they would be able to watch. I have no issues with paying money for esports, but I will not pay $20 for 5 hours of coverage on Sunday, while I would gladly pay $7 for 5 hours (or 2.5 movies). I tend to rationalize everything in terms of value compared to going to a movie, where if it costs the same as going to a movie, it is overpriced, and if it costs more (per hour) it is not even remotely worth doing, but when you get to half as expensive or less, it is totally worth it.
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even if it was a great even, a lot of people who watch these things are poor college students like myself. that 20 dollars is gas money to get to school, so MLG not so important. And that pizza might be the only food i get that day so yea. maybe if the one percent would share some money... nah im just kidding on that but this economy does not really look good for esports.
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General rule of thumb in the food industry is that the food costs 20% of its final price to actually make. A $20 pizza took $4 of labor and ingredients to make.
I don't watch MMA (from what I've seen, the fighters tend to be pretty sloppy, or at least they look that way to me after 12 years of learning MMA myself). I've heard that it's overpriced, though. Same for movie theaters.
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I am never ever going to pay 20 dollars for a weekend tournament unless i get alot more out of it than watching some games
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The way I see it, a lot of the above statements are over thinking this. This is No different than watching any other PPV event, whether it be UFC, watching a live porn stream, or anything else. If one wants to watch the event, live, right now, and can afford it, then go right ahead! However if one has to think about whether to eat or watch this, that person has far greater financial issues at hand.
A broke college/HS student probably shouldn't, as there are much more important things in life. A guy that has the money and desire to watch it live, coupled with the time to actually watch it... I say why the f not. As I stated earlier, it is No different than any other PPV event.
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I happily paid the $20. And I think it was well worth it. I really don't care about this "well there are so many free tournaments so I won't pay" thought. One, very few are as good as MLG. I watched Assembly this weekend too. I also had to sit through a minimum of 10 minutes of ads and coming up next screen between matches. With MLG, there was next to no downtime. There biggest down time was when they put the pay wall up which is pretty reasonable to me.
The only thing to really rival what MLG just did is GSL. And if you aren't paying for GSL, you are stuck with a 240p stream that is horrendous.
$20 is cheap for me. I really don't mind spending it on quality entertainment.
On February 28 2012 05:31 Durso wrote: even if it was a great even, a lot of people who watch these things are poor college students like myself. that 20 dollars is gas money to get to school, so MLG not so important. And that pizza might be the only food i get that day so yea. maybe if the one percent would share some money... nah im just kidding on that but this economy does not really look good for esports. Honestly, if you are that strapped for cash, you shouldn't be spending money of pizza. Buy food at the grocery store and make it yourself. Its way cheaper.
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For a lot of people this isn't just about $20, hell I can definitely afford it but I chose not to buy it. I absolutely do not like the PPV direction...if MLG can't compete with Free LQ, paid HQ model they need to go out of business. I am not here to support their lack of competence. If e-sports can't sustain the current model then it deserves to die or scale back.
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I am one of the individuals who quietly declined to pay for the event, and my story is the same as many other's. I could "afford" to pay the $20, just like I could afford to pay for alot of things in life that I decide not to. Why? Because I don't perceive $20 to be a fair price for the content provided (I DO however perceive the $65 I spent on a yearly GSL pass to be worthwile, take that for what it's worth).
I don't understand why people with my general mindset who decided to make their opinions known about the cost are being villified as killing E-Sports. This is how business works. A company makes a product or service, some people buy it, and some people don't. Some of the people who don't make the purchase voice their concerns that they don't think the value proposition is good enough to justify the price.
Are the people who choose to not buy MMA PPV killing MMA? Are the people who choose not to go have a night out at a restaurant because it's expensive killing the food industry? Please.
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On February 28 2012 05:52 Oceaniax wrote: I am one of the individuals who quietly declined to pay for the event, and my story is the same as many other's. I could "afford" to pay the $20, just like I could afford to pay for alot of things in life that I decide not to. Why? Because I don't perceive $20 to be a fair price for the content provided (I DO however perceive the $65 I spent on a yearly GSL pass to be worthwile, take that for what it's worth).
I don't understand why people with my general mindset who decided to make their opinions know about the cost are being villified as killing E-Sports. This is how business works. A company makes a product or service, some people buy it, and some people don't. Some of the people who don't make the purchase voice their concerns that they don't think the value proposition is good enough to justify the price.
Are the people who choose to not buy MMA PPV killing MMA? Are the people who choose not to go have a night out at a restaurant because it's expensive killing the food industry? Please.
They're just being overdramatic of course. You're not "killing" anything by not supporting it, you're just not funding it's growth. There is nothing wrong with that, it's your money.
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@ Xenocide_Knight BurgerWay is going to go out of business. Burger2 will have some consumers, enough to keep them afloat, while BurgerWay's secret formula wasn't enough to sustain itself. The consumers of BurgerWay are left to either never eat burgers for free again, or pay for it.
Changes need to be made, things don't come free very often for a good reason.
@TheToast Yes if someone is not willing to pay more than $10 than they can rightfully decline the Pass. But if someone is not willing to pay more than $10, they are not entitled to demand a free stream. That is my point I've been trying to make, although my original OP did a very poor job trying to carry that point across, I'm just bad at it.
Companies will fall off, but the question is, really- who's going to hang on and how?
@Chef Man. Chef you never really get the message I'm trying to convey through my blogs. Because I remember you making a similar post in my previous blog in the same way- thinking that I'm putting myself on the High Horse. I hate that so much. I actually think I that's like my most hated internet insult to ever receive. Quite frankly very few people out there intentionally put themselves on the high horse, and very few people come to terms and accept it if they've been proven to do so.
I'm bitching about people who don't buy passes AND DEMAND quite in an unruly and unreasonable fashion for streams to be free. I'm not yelling at you guys to buy a pass purely to support E-Sports because that's stupid why would you even think that. If you thought about it, calmly voiced your complaints and decline a pass then fine. Just don't come back with a rant on why the stream should be free.
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Okay the blog has a bad title, and the blog was poorly written, I'll bring myself down. I am also out of line for being against people who are vocal advocates for lower prices but have not purchased a pass (or am I? In the end it's just my opinion).
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Why pay for something I get free everywhere else, oh even now there are professional StarCraft 2 streams up. I suppose I should watch them with my delicious pizza.
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If you ask me the Providence tournament was a better product overall because of the stage and crowd atmosphere and the open bracket, and cost much less if you were a gold member. It's not that I can't afford it but there are other options, just look at what IPL is offering. Free low quality streams with $5 HD pass. Even $10 would've been reasonable.
The players that attended might've been slightly more popular/better than any other tournament to date but not by a lot, especially compared to providence. It just feels like I'd be fitting the bill for having the players flown over. It's unfortunate that NA is geographically far from where the best talent resides but as a customer that's not my problem.
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United Kingdom1658 Posts
On February 28 2012 02:51 mynameisgreat11 wrote: I couldn't care less about the future of e-sports, I'm just here to play starcraft. I don't pay to download movies, tv, music, why live sc2? Especially when it lags to hell, and there are a million other places to watch live sc2 lag-free. You're a criminal and should be fined massively. I am a musician trying to make my way, and people like you who not only steal left right and centre, but have the nerve to be open about it just because you think you're above the whole thing, make me sick. Screw your attitude.
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On February 28 2012 05:54 Snuggles wrote: @TheToast Yes if someone is not willing to pay more than $10 than they can rightfully decline the Pass. But if someone is not willing to pay more than $10, they are not entitled to demand a free stream. That is my point I've been trying to make, although my original OP did a very poor job trying to carry that point across, I'm just bad at it.
Companies will fall off, but the question is, really- who's going to hang on and how?
Yes, I agree with you about people watching the streams for free. MLG has the right to sell their product and no one has the right to watch it if they didn't pay.
And I think that's a good question about which tournaments will be left. My feeling is it's going to be the ones that can run with the lowest costs, probably NASL and IPL. Dreamhack isn't going anywhere either, they have more than just an SC2 tournament bringing in cash.
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I don't think taxing 20$ will make e-sport grow tbh, it's most probably the opposite; you lose fans and discourage new ones.
Justified or not.
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On February 28 2012 05:54 Snuggles wrote: @TheToast Yes if someone is not willing to pay more than $10 than they can rightfully decline the Pass. But if someone is not willing to pay more than $10, they are not entitled to demand a free stream. I disagree. They are entitled to make that demand provided they do not violate laws or website rules.
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On February 28 2012 02:47 Snuggles wrote: I bought the pass, and I'm not a very generous guy when it comes to handing out money. But after reflecting on what SC2 meant to me, and how much I love the Esports scene, I wanted to give back. I want E-Sports to have a better future. This is where a lot of people make erroneous assumptions. Putting your money into eSports does not guarantee a better future, or that eSports will survive or thrive etc... There are plenty of consumers that throw their money away on shady services, products and businesses and there are people that avoid said things.
The issue with trying to battle for who is right in whether we should have paid for MLG, or if it was worth it or not, or what have you, is that it is avoiding the big picture.
Supporting something on principle does not give the company an accurate picture of the real worth and reach that they have with their particular service or product. When we lose that objective measure of if something is really worth our time and money, the company is unable to improve or find measures to alter the product/infrastructure cost, the price to consumers and a host of other things.
We would have to ask ourselves, of all the individuals that paid for MLG, how many did it simply to "support eSports" regardless of the product quality? Luckily, the feedback thread was full of issues and concerns, and no doubt, if MLG wants to continue under this model, and it does really work for them after this initial impression, they will have to address most of them if they want to succeed.
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I love SC2 with a passion.
That being said I can't force myself to sit down for 10 hours a day for a 3 day weekend to watch something that I am not invested in.
I paid for the MLG arena. Great time for me, great players etc. Since I paid $20 for it, it actually made me extremely excited to watch something like this. I wanted to get my monies worth! I had concrete plans for my weekend that if I ditched on I'd stupidly be out money. I came home from work every day and watched the hell out of it intently, happy with my purchase.
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On February 28 2012 06:11 domane wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 05:54 Snuggles wrote: @TheToast Yes if someone is not willing to pay more than $10 than they can rightfully decline the Pass. But if someone is not willing to pay more than $10, they are not entitled to demand a free stream. I disagree. They are entitled to make that demand provided they do not violate laws or website rules.
Yes, this.
There is a big difference between people who are asking for a free stream and those who are getting access to the content for free. If you are "stealing" the content, there is no defense for your behavior; MLG has a right to charge for the content and you don't have any right to watch it without paying.
However I am one of the people who like esports, but am not willing to pay money to watch it. Why would I pay to watch MLG when NASL, IPL, ROG, and countless userstreams are all free? I spend too much of my time watching SC2 and BW as it is, I don't feel the need to watch more. There's nothing terribly special about MLG's arena content, at least nothing that I would want to spend $20 on. It's not even a live event.
You can say I'm "hurting esports", but in reality I'm doing exactly what I should be. MLG isn't the girl scout next store from whom you buy cookies that you don't like just because you feel bad. If we want this to survive as an industry, then we need to treat it like one. That means making decisions like the informed consumers that we are, if you think MLG's content is worth $20 then by all means go ahead and spend the money. I however don't want to spend money to watch MLG, so I choose not to. The industry needs to figure out how to make profit from the view base; it's not the responsibility of the view base to figure out how to make the industry profitable.
As I said previously, I think the industry outside of Korea is totally over sized and is not linking production expenses to realistic income models. Some of these tournaments like MLG are going to continue with this rediculous model and fail, that's the free market. Others, I suspect, will find a way to minimize their costs and at least come clost to breaking even. Hopefully they will be able to consolidate the former view base of some of the tournaments that fail, and continue gowing.
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I'm pretty sure everyone can agree with that nobody can rightfully demand a free stream, right?
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I'm really tired of all these lectures on why I should buy something. I don't want it, how simple is that? I do not want to pay $20 to watch a SC2 tournament. TL has turned into those infomercials about how I too could save a child's life for 30 cents a day except it's about some completely insignificant niche form of entertainment.
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illsick
United States1770 Posts
On February 28 2012 02:47 Snuggles wrote:
My friends would pool in their money to watch UFC games that go for much than $20, sure it's once every few months but we're dealing with the same model. Plus none of us actually did any MMA (el oh el) so we just wanted to be entertained by people beating on each other. UFC was low on our priority list and we still paid to watch so whats wrong with paying to watch Starcraft? What the quality isn't up there? You son of a bitch they've been giving us FREE content since the release of the game. How on earth are they going give us better quality with the limited resources they have? C'mon folks, I think we all know by now that things aren't going that well for MLG.
you compare sc2 to UFC but you can also compare it to other sports that can be seen for free. It doesn't need to be PPV. I don't know if you are new to MLG but they have been around for a long time and they have been making profit or doing fine before starcraft2 came into the scene. Now that they have sc2 in the circuit, their attendance and stream views grew a lot. If they were doing fine before, I would imagine they are doing better now? So, no, we all don't know by now that things aren't going that well for MLG. They are actually in better position than DH, IEM, etc with corporate sponsors like Dr.Pepper, xperia, etc.
Don't let MLG try to fool you to thinking they really need people to support them. It should happen naturally, if people are mad that they don't want to pay $20... then that's fine. Sundance did the same thing last season with the gold passes saying they really needed the support. A business model can't be stable based on guilt and "supporting" esports. It's not a charity, it's a business model. People don't buy UFC PPV events cuz they want to support it forever, they do it because they are exclusive and people are naturally wanting to buy the programs. In this case, I didn't really see what MLG Arena did that set the bar even against free events.
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On February 28 2012 06:40 Xiron wrote: I'm pretty sure everyone can agree with that nobody can rightfully demand a free stream, right? People can demand it, it's just that nobody is obligated to provide it.
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On February 28 2012 05:54 Snuggles wrote: @ Xenocide_Knight BurgerWay is going to go out of business. Burger2 will have some consumers, enough to keep them afloat, while BurgerWay's secret formula wasn't enough to sustain itself. The consumers of BurgerWay are left to either never eat burgers for free again, or pay for it.
Changes need to be made, things don't come free very often for a good reason.
Except Burgerway is still chugging along even with Burger2 desperately trying to cannibalize it for a quick buck, and has been successful and self-sustaining for more than 9 years before Burger2. If you don't know your burger history, don't talk about burger business.
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I have enough responsibilities as it is. I'm not gonna worry about the "growth of esports." If something is popular, if the product is good, it will grow. I don't try to push people into buying any other product, and a stream is no different.
If it's free, I'll watch it. I won't pay though. I just don't value it that much.
On February 28 2012 05:56 unoriginalname wrote: Why pay for something I get free everywhere else, oh even now there are professional StarCraft 2 streams up. I suppose I should watch them with my delicious pizza.
Also this. Excellent post.
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The fact that so many people paid because they're "helping e-sports" actually just makes me sad for the future.
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I am in high school, and don't have money to spend on "supporting esports." Especially if I can just turn off cookies and view it for free.
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op made the assumption that just because someone could, even quite easily, make the choice to save that $20 elsewhere, that they should instantly invest in esports.
if esports wants to truely grow up and become sustainable we need to stop viewing it as a charity instead of a business. im sick of people trying to guilt trip others into buying the ppv pass, i dont see anyone trying to guilt trip you in to supporting mcdonalds.
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It's not the fact that it's 20 dollars, it's the fact that you have to pay period for something that has been free for ages. Never paid a cent for an online stream event, never will.
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^^ This is a perfect example of the attitude that makes it hard for anyone to make money in esports.
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On February 29 2012 03:11 ziggurat wrote: ^^ This is a perfect example of the attitude that makes it hard for anyone to make money in esports.
Its not the responsibility of the consumer to make a product worth it's price it's the job of the producer. Mlg needing money after blowing 50 million venture capital shouldn't be something we have to pay for.
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Saying that people should pay any sum of money for a SC2 event, whether it's 5,10,20,50 dollars, for the reason that we need to help e-sports, is a terrible argument for the simple reason that there are multiple event organizers. If there had been one singular organizer the argument would make some sense.
But there's not just one, it's not a monopoly, there are several organizers competing for your time and money, that's why the pay-to-support-esports argument is terrible, because if you actually apply that argument then the actual quality of the events the organizers put on becomes irrelevant, you should pay 20$ to MLG if you think that's what one Winter Arena event is worth, not because of some idea of supporting e-sports.
If you want to monetarily help e-sports out of your own good will, then donate some money to a smaller event so they can use it in a prizepool, put some money in one of the tipjars of a Shoutcraft invitational, donate to an up-and-coming player in some other fashion. There are plenty of ways to help e-sports by donating your time/money, but do not trick yourself into thinking that it's a good idea to apply charitable logic to a PPV model.
MLG is selling a product, e-sports tournaments/events, they are setting a price for that product that they think is reasonable and it's up to you as a consumer to determine if you agree with the price or not. To you it was worth 20$, to me it wasn't, that doesn't mean I'm somehow insulting MLG or that I don't want to support e-sports, it simply means that I do not think that an MLG event is worth 20$. If Dreamhack or IPL starting charging 20$ for their events I would pay it in a heartbeat, because their events are worth 20$ to me, MLG's are not.
I donated 1000$ to the Shoutcraft Invitational because I loved the concepts behind it and it was something I thought would be great for e-sports, that was a charitable action, but just because I have money to spend doesn't mean I'm going to buy everything that's put in front of me.
MLG is a business, it's not a charity, they are treating you as a consumer so why aren't you treating them as a company trying to make a profit?
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$20 is a large sum of money, especially in todays economy. Most people are trying to find ways to save. Also, a lot of people aren't going to sit around their ENTIRE weekend to watch one thing. Most people have other things going on and lives. They aren't going to pay a bunch of money for something that they aren't going to use fully. To get the value out of this ticket, you must have no social life, girl friend, family obligations, etc.
Sure, some people spend $20+ to take their girlfriend out to dinner or movie, but spend the same amount for online content and then sit around your house all weekend to justify the expense. Nah, count me out.
eSPORTS needs to do a better job of bringing in advertiser dollars. That way the content is free for you and me and the scene is rich with cash flow. Millions of people watch NASCAR on TV for free, but how many of those people do you HONESTLY think would spend $20 / race or / weekend to watch?
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What I really don't like is the attitude that if you love e-sports, I mean if you're not just one of those pathetic people who just enjoy playing a game for fun in your spare time, but you really LOVE esports, then you absolutely HAVE to fork out money for whatever goddamn thing is produced, otherwise you are some kind of leech or pathetic individual.
I hate to tell you this, but your love affair with MLG/GOMtv/NASL is completely one sided. Hey, they love SC2 and they love putting on the show I'm sure, but they don't care about you at all (aside from as a potential customer), and that is absolutely the way it should be. So don't feel like you owe them your allegience or even your money. If you are interested in something that they are selling, then buy it, otherwise feel completely free to not buy it.
If anyone deserve more unswerving, undying loyalty it is Activision/Blizzard, the big bad guys who actually make SC2. They brought back SC2 into an RTS scene that was dead on its feet, and continue to provide balance patches and updates for many months after it has become commercially sensible. Give THAT a little bit more consideration please.
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My position is this: I like esports, mainly BECAUSE it is free. I know that doesn't do much for the people trying to monetize it. And I think the problem is, a lot of people are in the a similar situation.
I'm a poor grad student. I watch a lot of Starcraft right now, in part, because I don't have anything else to do while I eat dinner( or the hour or two I have when I'm not doing something else, either social/school related or playing SC2 myself). That's it. I don't pay for TV service, I basically have to pay for internet in this day and age (who doesn't), so I get most of my entertainment from the internet. When I graduate in May, I will probably have a lot more disposable income (hopefully) within the next few months. I still wouldn't pay to watch Starcraft2. I feel like I really like the SC2 scene, but maybe I don't because I won't put my money where my mouth is. Maybe I'm cheap, but that is how I feel. If paying to watch SC2 b3ecame the norm, I'd play more, and watch only the free stuff. I like it as entertainment, but I won't pay for it. If it dies because of that, I'm fine moving on to something else.
Maybe that sounds selfish, but that's where I'm at. And the big problem is, I think most people are in a similar situation.
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It just makes me laugh to see middle class Americans barging in here "har har what's $20, a pizza", on an international board where some people can't even think about having a $20 meal because that amount of money can't be found without severely cutting elsewhere.
I find it unfortunate that people who dare try to fight for some kind of standard of equality in the community get laughed at and they get educated about the wonders of the mighty concept of opportunity costs. Perhaps I should give up other luxuries that I have in my life - easy to say over here, for students who think they have it rough but make the equivalent of another country's day's wage in 30 minutes.
These tournaments are more than capable of living off of sponsors and HD stream sales and live attendance - not to mention the open bracket money. This is evidenced by the fact that - well, they fucking do... Some players make at least the high 5 figures in salary, perhaps 6 figures. Multiple players make 6 figures in tournament money.
More importantly though, if you're middle class in a rich country, you're an aristocrat - don't pretend everyone has disposable income because you do.
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It's just not worth the 20 dollars in my opinion.
Yes, there are a lot of games being casted, but who is gonna stay and watch SC2 for 6-7 hours a day 3 days in a row? And watching it not live is no where near as exciting, so... no. I wouldn't pay 20 dollars for it...
And honestly, I feel like unless it's a season-style ticket where you can pay once 20-80 dollars and then have unlimited access to all live events, and their recordings from that season it's just not worth the money objectively.
I can buy an NBA league pass for 170 dollars, and an NBA regular season has 1230 games in a season (and then between 60 and 105 play-off games) with extremely high production value, and it's a main-stream event to which decent live tickets cost fortunes.
They have it all backwards. They should charge way more for live events, and the coverage should only cost money for access to total recorded content.
So in conclusion... 1) they charged too much for anyone that wasn't planning on being glued to their stream for 24 hours along the course of a weekend (which for the sake of e-sports viewers I hope isn't a large percentage of people.) 2) If I was to pay I would want lasting access to the recorded content (no idea if this was available though, so it may be a non-issue.) 3) If they actually made the price what the weekend was worth I would rather just still buy a premium subscription type thing that they have, because then I am not pidgeon-holed into getting value out of my money in 1 weekend, and I'd be willing to pay more for that.
I think the business model of having things broad-casted live is that you can have a lot of simultaneous viewers, and you make money from advertisement.
While the business model of having things on-demand is that you can either charge for access, or embed advertisement into the content or a bit of both.
Charging money for broad-casting live events even with extremely high production value is a bit non-sensical because as good as it is, production value can always be better for less money in non-live on-demand content, which by being on-demand is more flexible in its use for the consumer. The appeal of LIVE events is that they're live, you use things such as great player pools, decent on-spot production value, live interviews, good casters, and etc etc. to attract viewers AWAY from other things (such as other live streams, other concurrent tournaments, or just totally different things in general.) By charging money for this service you're pushing the viewers away.
It doesn't make sense to demand both a viewer's time AND money at a very particular point in time, unless it's a package/season ticket style deal where they can tune in more than once throughout the course of a long period of time, and even then the cost per event needs to be far less, because live events always compete for attention of the viewer, and charging money doesn't help.
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Well basically everyone seems to have the same view as me. MLG needs to (yes they HAVE to) make us WANT to pay for it. I believe they already know this. And whether or not we have the money is irrelevant. I wanted to watch it, but was it worth a THIRD of most new video games? Hell no. It's also not worth a fifth of a nice new motherboard. I'm not sure if OP knows this, but supporting companies like the game designers or the hardware companies behind teams/tournaments is also a great way to support esports without it being a sad and desperate charity. MLG is trying to force our hand by saying they're sorry and this needs to be done. That's not true and they probably know it. MLG wants to profit more, so they ask for more and if they were to die off, it's just how Darwin planned.
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Consider the tradeoffs. I won't be around most of the time watching the stream anyways, and VODs will available free in one week. So, I can have my $20 and wait a week or ... pay $20 to have it a week in advance. If the VODs weren't free, then sure, I'll pay the $20. But since they are... meh.
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I bought a pass. It was a fun weekend. There are probably a few things they can improve on (expectations are much higher when $$ is involved), but I understand it's a process. It'd be nice to see the price go down, or have different options (what if you are unable to watch the entire weekend, and just want to watch finals), but again it's a process.
Overall I was satisfied. $20 is too much for a single weekend of SC2 (compared to other options), but I did it. Hopefully they can find a way to make it all work.
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On February 29 2012 03:34 RvB wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 03:11 ziggurat wrote: ^^ This is a perfect example of the attitude that makes it hard for anyone to make money in esports. Its not the responsibility of the consumer to make a product worth it's price it's the job of the producer. Mlg needing money after blowing 50 million venture capital shouldn't be something we have to pay for.
It seems like you're reading something into my post that's not there. What I'm saying is that if people aren't willing to pay money to see high-level sc2 tournaments then high-level sc2 tournaments will eventually disappear. It's nobody's "responsibility", but it's still true.
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I didn't know MLG was a charity case.
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On February 29 2012 04:02 Djzapz wrote: It just makes me laugh to see middle class Americans barging in here "har har what's $20, a pizza", on an international board where some people can't even think about having a $20 meal because that amount of money can't be found without severely cutting elsewhere.
I find it unfortunate that people who dare try to fight for some kind of standard of equality in the community get laughed at and they get educated about the wonders of the mighty concept of opportunity costs. Perhaps I should give up other luxuries that I have in my life - easy to say over here, for students who think they have it rough but make the equivalent of another country's day's wage in 30 minutes.
These tournaments are more than capable of living off of sponsors and HD stream sales and live attendance - not to mention the open bracket money. This is evidenced by the fact that - well, they fucking do... Some players make at least the high 5 figures in salary, perhaps 6 figures. Multiple players make 6 figures in tournament money.
More importantly though, if you're middle class in a rich country, you're an aristocrat - don't pretend everyone has disposable income because you do.
I'm not sure what the point of this post is. It's pretty obvious that people who have the money to buy a computer and have internet access have enough disposable income to spend $20 on a weekend worth of entertainment. I guess there are some that don't. In third world countries people live on less than a dollar a day. So what? None of this has anything to do with the OP.
Your point about tournaments make a living off sponsors and HD streams etc seems to assume that they are actually making money. What gives you that idea? I think the reality is that most major tournaments struggle to break even or actually lose money.
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I think this thread has gone on long enough. It figures that my longest blog that had the most views is the most controversial one. But it wasn't all that bad since a few people have properly given their own counter-arguments. As per usual a lot of people have merely glossed over my OP and didn't take a hint from my follow ups that I'm not a brain dead person who has some insatiable lust for E-Sports. Sorry but what you make me out to be just isn't how I am in reality.
I did indeed do a poor job of writing this blog and tacking that title on to it so I hope you'll forgive me for that. In the end I just want to be done with this thread with these closing thoughts.
-People all have their own priorities, they want to put their money elsewhere. I have to respect them for that, and hopefully they'll respect me for paying $20 to watch MLG.
-This is not a charity. You guys keep making me out to be the guy with the Santa hat ringing my bell for donations. Fuck you that's not what I'm trying to do- I can't put it any simpler.
-My beef is with people who were strongly opposed to the PPV model in an unnecessarily rude manner. If you really don't want to pay for it, then keep your mouth shut OR be vocal in a more mannered and productive way. However, of course someone pointed out that you can belligerent all you want because you aren't violating any laws, of course. Jeez after all we can just go back to the "This is the internet" statement and grow thicker skin. I guess that means I can join the mob and pointlessly rant at things that aren't free. Might as well run over my neighbor's dog and blog about it.
-I'm not on a high horse, I'm not being a savior, I don't have a superiority complex. I just wanted to voice my opinion at least once to see how the TL community would respond. Although as I said, some people have made great counter-arguments that I can respect and learn from, an awful lot of you are just making this into five threads of boiling tar for me to wade through.
So now I'm asking myself should I ever do something like this again for the sake of just trying to understand what is truly right and wrong? I just don't know, I totally didn't expect people to be so harshly negative, I expected to be wrong but not be made out into the village idiot. Or maybe my skin isn't thick enough, how thick does it have to be on TL? I thought I would have known better by now.
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On February 28 2012 02:47 Snuggles wrote:
So you're a High School kid, a person with massive credit card debt, medical bills to pay, a bankrupt drug addict- w/e you have no way of shedding off some time and scrounging up $20 to watch SC2, make your point there and we'll say its okay. But wait you're actually a frugal college kid. You can afford $20 to watch a live content, but you choose to say you can't- why? Please reflect on yourself before you make that excuse. Do you have an apple laptop? Do you eat out every week? Got a smartphone? Do your jeans look nice? Depending on what your answer to those questions may be, you might not even have the right to say you're a frugal college student and not be able to buy a $20 pass.
I am a university kid. I dont have an apple laptop, I dont eat out even once a week on average, got a smartphone for my birthday, got normal jeans and I lived the past 4 months on a 200€ budget per month which I had to use for food.
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On February 29 2012 08:22 ziggurat wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 04:02 Djzapz wrote: It just makes me laugh to see middle class Americans barging in here "har har what's $20, a pizza", on an international board where some people can't even think about having a $20 meal because that amount of money can't be found without severely cutting elsewhere.
I find it unfortunate that people who dare try to fight for some kind of standard of equality in the community get laughed at and they get educated about the wonders of the mighty concept of opportunity costs. Perhaps I should give up other luxuries that I have in my life - easy to say over here, for students who think they have it rough but make the equivalent of another country's day's wage in 30 minutes.
These tournaments are more than capable of living off of sponsors and HD stream sales and live attendance - not to mention the open bracket money. This is evidenced by the fact that - well, they fucking do... Some players make at least the high 5 figures in salary, perhaps 6 figures. Multiple players make 6 figures in tournament money.
More importantly though, if you're middle class in a rich country, you're an aristocrat - don't pretend everyone has disposable income because you do. I'm not sure what the point of this post is. It's pretty obvious that people who have the money to buy a computer and have internet access have enough disposable income to spend $20 on a weekend worth of entertainment. I guess there are some that don't. In third world countries people live on less than a dollar a day. So what? None of this has anything to do with the OP. Your point about tournaments make a living off sponsors and HD streams etc seems to assume that they are actually making money. What gives you that idea? I think the reality is that most major tournaments struggle to break even or actually lose money. That's absurd. I can assure you that plenty of people who frequent this forum have a very cheap computer and the internet isn't exactly expensive to have in many countries, and pretty much a necessity. You say that the OP doesn't talk about that, and I guess you're right in some way, North America is most of the planet, and those strange people who live on $4000 a year and wiggle and jiggle on their Internets, they don't quite matter, although they very well skip 4-5 meals for a crashy and occasionally laggy MLG.
Then you criticize me for assuming that lasting businesses are making money. Why would you assume that they aren't? Has MLG been running for 10 years on good faith and rainbows, OR does it have solid pillars and an increasing customerbase which allows for expansion with the old business model which has always functioned, according to some, until NOW? What's the logic? They have too many customers or something?
The fact that SC2 tournaments are alive and in many cases focusing on SC2 would suggest to anyone knowledgeable that it's sustainable at best and most likely (actually certainly) profitable, which explains their longevity and their ability to shell out an increasing amount of prize pools, which are growing in size themselves. Not to mention, production value is constantly going up (despite the many issues), and that happens regardless of the fact that the community - at least it seems to me - is extremely lenient to being fed with absolute garbage. They have the means to increase production value, even though frankly we'd eat it up and watch those ads. A vocal minority would whine (myself), but a lot of people will white knight terrible tournaments and horrible casters.
MLG is a full blown enterprise, it's healthy. Either way, I'm not too worried for it.
On February 29 2012 09:20 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 02:47 Snuggles wrote:
So you're a High School kid, a person with massive credit card debt, medical bills to pay, a bankrupt drug addict- w/e you have no way of shedding off some time and scrounging up $20 to watch SC2, make your point there and we'll say its okay. But wait you're actually a frugal college kid. You can afford $20 to watch a live content, but you choose to say you can't- why? Please reflect on yourself before you make that excuse. Do you have an apple laptop? Do you eat out every week? Got a smartphone? Do your jeans look nice? Depending on what your answer to those questions may be, you might not even have the right to say you're a frugal college student and not be able to buy a $20 pass.
I am a university kid. I dont have an apple laptop, I dont eat out even once a week on average, got a smartphone for my birthday, got normal jeans and I lived the past 4 months on a 200€ budget per month which I had to use for food. Aristocrats says tough luck, eat smaller meals maybe?
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On February 29 2012 09:21 Djzapz wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:20 Skilledblob wrote:On February 28 2012 02:47 Snuggles wrote:
So you're a High School kid, a person with massive credit card debt, medical bills to pay, a bankrupt drug addict- w/e you have no way of shedding off some time and scrounging up $20 to watch SC2, make your point there and we'll say its okay. But wait you're actually a frugal college kid. You can afford $20 to watch a live content, but you choose to say you can't- why? Please reflect on yourself before you make that excuse. Do you have an apple laptop? Do you eat out every week? Got a smartphone? Do your jeans look nice? Depending on what your answer to those questions may be, you might not even have the right to say you're a frugal college student and not be able to buy a $20 pass.
I am a university kid. I dont have an apple laptop, I dont eat out even once a week on average, got a smartphone for my birthday, got normal jeans and I lived the past 4 months on a 200€ budget per month which I had to use for food. Aristocrats says tough luck, eat smaller meals maybe?
I really dont care if MLG wants to charge money for their streams but what I really do not like is people like the OP who feel obligated to tell me how I am not passionate enough about SC2 just because I dont want to eat one week rice only.
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On February 29 2012 09:26 Skilledblob wrote:Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 09:21 Djzapz wrote:On February 29 2012 09:20 Skilledblob wrote:On February 28 2012 02:47 Snuggles wrote:
So you're a High School kid, a person with massive credit card debt, medical bills to pay, a bankrupt drug addict- w/e you have no way of shedding off some time and scrounging up $20 to watch SC2, make your point there and we'll say its okay. But wait you're actually a frugal college kid. You can afford $20 to watch a live content, but you choose to say you can't- why? Please reflect on yourself before you make that excuse. Do you have an apple laptop? Do you eat out every week? Got a smartphone? Do your jeans look nice? Depending on what your answer to those questions may be, you might not even have the right to say you're a frugal college student and not be able to buy a $20 pass.
I am a university kid. I dont have an apple laptop, I dont eat out even once a week on average, got a smartphone for my birthday, got normal jeans and I lived the past 4 months on a 200€ budget per month which I had to use for food. Aristocrats says tough luck, eat smaller meals maybe? I really dont care if MLG wants to charge money for their streams but what I really do not like is people like the OP who feel obligated to tell me how I am not passionate enough about SC2 just because I dont want to eat one week rice only. Well that's the west for you. See, we're the center of the world right, and since we handle life with 5 figures, the idea is that everyone should be fine with 4. Hell, they speak weird languages over there, perhaps they can translate their passion into USD.
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On February 29 2012 08:49 Snuggles wrote: -This is not a charity. You guys keep making me out to be the guy with the Santa hat ringing my bell for donations. Fuck you that's not what I'm trying to do- I can't put it any simpler.
The product they offered is not competetive. $20 for a weekend of ONE game is simply too much. Take a look at other events, or other sports products that are being broadcast. So yeah, what you're doing is a charity.
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I love Brood War to death and have been fortunate enough to enjoy watching korean pro bw for many years virtually free of charge. But korean bw is another bunch of players and another bunch of tournaments that i can watch. It doesn't matter to me if I'm watching a tournament with a purse of $50 or $5,000, I don't feel the need to donate money to for-profit organizations in order to support my own love of the game.
I could easily save that $20 from 5 arenas and turn it into a $100 pro-am tournament and I will doing a million times more to support the community, not e-sports.
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I wouldn't mind paying over $100/year for better quality production. I wouldn't even mind $500/year eSPORTS quality was up to par with something like ESPN.
Some of us just don't have time to read articles all day and look at TLPD to find out what been going on.
For now, I can't justify spending on most eSPORTS events, so I feel kind of hypocritical. I guess that's just something they'll have to figure out. Either that, or someone has to see the value and put up some huge expenses up front knowing there is going to be a huge market potential. Pretty much like what Twitch and Own3d are doing, but I want to see it on a much bigger scale.
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Hmmm... a bit of a weird post... you're trying to tell others what to value something based on YOUR own internal evaluation criteria.
The bottom line is - if something is not worth it, then the consumers won't pay for it. It's very simple economics. The consumers don't really care that it's MLG's first time, etc, they care for value of money. i.e. the utility they get out of it vs the price they pay.
I would've loved to see MLG's market research (or non-research). If they had lowered their price to $10, would they have more than doubled their revenue? Would they have created more hype and stream numbers?
Anyways, $20 is not realistic price by MLG when you consider their competitor, the GSL - for $70 (GSL Light), you get 5 seasons (e.g. $14 per season) of the best league in the world. If you had decided to splurge a little, $100 (GSL Premium) or $20 a season will get you dual-stream.
Also, if people think that I'm being hypocritical, I purchase GSL Premium ($100) and GSTL Light ($55) because I felt that the product was worth it. I didn't buy MLG Arena for $20 because I didn't think it was worth the money.
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On February 28 2012 02:47 Snuggles wrote:Hey sure, we can all agree that MLG could lower the price down a bit, but I think that only people who have purchased the pass are entitled to make that statement. "I would've purchased a pass if it was cheaper." How could you say that? There has never been a PPV model exactly like MLG's, this is the first time it has been done in this format. You bought a GSL ticket for $20 for an entire season? That and what MLG is doing is different, not entirely but still different enough for you to lose basis on making comparisons between the two. You simply don't know exactly what to expect, therefore you cannot make profound assumptions that you think should be laid down as the law.
THIS x infinity.
As a person who managed to buy the pass (after credit card expired w/o noticing) last minute it was far and beyond my expectations. I drop money and time into my local community on a weekly basis and I never expect anything for it, a nod or good job is hugely appreciated and one day when I get to see Sundance, Lee, Adam or any of the other MLG GSL IPL NASL (fuck, CSL, NSL, TESPA, NESL) guys the first thing I am going to do is thank them, for their passion, their sacrifices and the future they're building.
It floors me that these people I hang out with regularly and profess a passion for the SC2 community are gaming the system by watching re-streams and incognito'n bypasses. Grow up.
Doing this may be doing the Bible a Disservice but as the verse goes, 'Faith without works is dead' (probably not a direct translation). I have faith that e-Sports will be around when I have kids, that it WILL be a viable alternative to Baseball, Hockey, Football (both kinds) or Basketball. Along with alot of other parts that IS the future I want to live in, and I will act on it.
Ok, off my soap box now.
Really pisses me off when people think they are the clever ones because the managed to get around systems put in place to make shit profitable.
We are all in this together, MLG is NOT THE MAN.
EDIT- On February 29 2012 10:43 a176 wrote: I love Brood War to death and have been fortunate enough to enjoy watching korean pro bw for many years virtually free of charge. But korean bw is another bunch of players and another bunch of tournaments that i can watch. It doesn't matter to me if I'm watching a tournament with a purse of $50 or $5,000, I don't feel the need to donate money to for-profit organizations in order to support my own love of the game.
I could easily save that $20 from 5 arenas and turn it into a $100 pro-am tournament and I will doing a million times more to support the community, not e-sports.
Do it then, if this is just you being another child offering up hypothetical ideas while passing the buck to another then GTFO.
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On February 29 2012 12:11 Gofarman wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2012 02:47 Snuggles wrote:Hey sure, we can all agree that MLG could lower the price down a bit, but I think that only people who have purchased the pass are entitled to make that statement. "I would've purchased a pass if it was cheaper." How could you say that? There has never been a PPV model exactly like MLG's, this is the first time it has been done in this format. You bought a GSL ticket for $20 for an entire season? That and what MLG is doing is different, not entirely but still different enough for you to lose basis on making comparisons between the two. You simply don't know exactly what to expect, therefore you cannot make profound assumptions that you think should be laid down as the law.
THIS x infinity. As a person who managed to buy the pass (after credit card expired w/o noticing) last minute it was far and beyond my expectations. I drop money and time into my local community on a weekly basis and I never expect anything for it, a nod or good job is hugely appreciated and one day when I get to see Sundance, Lee, Adam or any of the other MLG GSL IPL NASL (fuck, CSL, NSL, TESPA, NESL) guys the first thing I am going to do is thank them, for their passion, their sacrifices and the future they're building. It floors me that these people I hang out with regularly and profess a passion for the SC2 community are gaming the system by watching re-streams and incognito'n bypasses. Grow up. Doing this may be doing the Bible a Disservice but as the verse goes, 'Faith without works is dead' (probably not a direct translation). I have faith that e-Sports will be around when I have kids, that it WILL be a viable alternative to Baseball, Hockey, Football (both kinds) or Basketball. Along with alot of other parts that IS the future I want to live in, and I will act on it. Ok, off my soap box now. Really pisses me off when people think they are the clever ones because the managed to get around systems put in place to make shit profitable. We are all in this together, MLG is NOT THE MAN. EDIT- Show nested quote +On February 29 2012 10:43 a176 wrote: I love Brood War to death and have been fortunate enough to enjoy watching korean pro bw for many years virtually free of charge. But korean bw is another bunch of players and another bunch of tournaments that i can watch. It doesn't matter to me if I'm watching a tournament with a purse of $50 or $5,000, I don't feel the need to donate money to for-profit organizations in order to support my own love of the game.
I could easily save that $20 from 5 arenas and turn it into a $100 pro-am tournament and I will doing a million times more to support the community, not e-sports. Do it then, if this is just you being another child offering up hypothetical ideas while passing the buck to another then GTFO. Disagreed - people are entitled to vote with their wallets - if they feel it's not worth it, then they shouldn't feel any obligation to purchase it. I myself voted with my wallet by purchasing GSL Premium ($100) and GSTL Light ($55) because I feel they are great products. I didn't buy MLG because it's not worth it to me. The whole "supporting e-sports" line is so cliche and overused nowadays.
However, I agree with your point about the "Really pisses me off when people think they are the clever ones because the managed to get around systems put in place to make shit profitable." Illegal actions should be punished accordingly.
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