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[osl spoilers] Counter-Arguments - Page 2
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Holgerius
Sweden16951 Posts
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
In my mind, Jaedong is bonjwa - but that's just me and Flash has a lot stronger resume. | ||
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MinoMino
Norway1103 Posts
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Sephy90
United States1785 Posts
On September 12 2010 04:26 jalstar wrote: I saw that game. I also saw some great wins that Hwasin, Midas, and Iris had over Savior. But they all lost the Bo5 in the end. Sure they lost, but that doesn't mean they didn't stand a chance(as far as I know)which is the point I'm trying to make with JD and I know that JD can stand a chance. | ||
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darkmetal505
United States639 Posts
If BW has a 20 inch dick for perfection in gameplay, not statistics or how many titles one has won, just skill and aura, then Savior and Nada were raping with 10 inch cocks when everyone else had 5-6 inches. Sure sometimes you would get the 7-9 incher challenging them and beating them, but when fully erect, it was hard to beat Savior or Nada. Then Bisu came along and changed everything. He had been hiding his footlong and unleashed it on Savior. At the same time, all the players were slowly growing up into the big leagues. Bisu had a change to stretch his wiener into a 15 inch monster before everyone else could, but he blew it. This is where bonjwadongs ended. Now look at Flash. He's wielding a giant 19 incher and sometimes taps the limit of 20. Girls faint at the sight of his power and it is intimidating indeed. However, JD is not far behind him with 18 inches and others such as Stork, Bisu, and Effort have all grown into their 16-17 inchers. Flash has reached a position where bonjwa can't apply anymore because it's a thing of the past. Everyone now has rock solid crown jewels exceeding 12 inches (except Hyuk). Flash and many others have transcended bonjwadongs. Finally, in these last two finals, it's hard to see Flash and JD battling with full on erections because each has tried to cripple the other before they can get into full form. There isn't enough of a sample size to measure full lengths. Nevertheless, Flash's prowess is unmatched in the bedroom right now. So you can call Flash "Imbalance Terran", "God", or "Biggest Dick," but the power of the bonjwadong ended with the sub 12 inchers beating the half footers. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
To me thats what I think of when I think of Bonjwa. | ||
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SkelA
Macedonia13069 Posts
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Terrakin
United States1440 Posts
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ShaperofDreams
Canada2492 Posts
im a jd and a flash fanboi btw. my favourite player by a slight margin is jaedong, just cause flash is so strong that its hard to relate. jaedong frequently looks like he might not win, while every time flash loses its a big surprise. | ||
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L_Master
United States8017 Posts
On September 12 2010 06:16 SkelA wrote: Flash is better than bonjwa. We need a new word for him....maybe god ? Can't be god. God must be who he has been practicing with to feel he is severly lacking and that his record against protoss can be mostly attributed to luck. | ||
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_romantic
United States455 Posts
On September 12 2010 06:15 darkmetal505 wrote: The original bonjwadom was for the dominance that Savior exerted and then extrapolated to the other 3. The word defines this type of relationship which is long gone because so many good players have come up. Here is a good analogy since everyone can understand phallic imagery: If BW has a 20 inch dick for perfection in gameplay, not statistics or how many titles one has won, just skill and aura, then Savior and Nada were raping with 10 inch cocks when everyone else had 5-6 inches. Sure sometimes you would get the 7-9 incher challenging them and beating them, but when fully erect, it was hard to beat Savior or Nada. Then Bisu came along and changed everything. He had been hiding his footlong and unleashed it on Savior. At the same time, all the players were slowly growing up into the big leagues. Bisu had a change to stretch his wiener into a 15 inch monster before everyone else could, but he blew it. This is where bonjwadongs ended. Now look at Flash. He's wielding a giant 19 incher and sometimes taps the limit of 20. Girls faint at the sight of his power and it is intimidating indeed. However, JD is not far behind him with 18 inches and others such as Stork, Bisu, and Effort have all grown into their 16-17 inchers. Flash has reached a position where bonjwa can't apply anymore because it's a thing of the past. Everyone now has rock solid crown jewels exceeding 12 inches (except Hyuk). Flash and many others have transcended bonjwadongs. Finally, in these last two finals, it's hard to see Flash and JD battling with full on erections because each has tried to cripple the other before they can get into full form. There isn't enough of a sample size to measure full lengths. Nevertheless, Flash's prowess is unmatched in the bedroom right now. So you can call Flash "Imbalance Terran", "God", or "Biggest Dick," but the power of the bonjwadong ended with the sub 12 inchers beating the half footers. Dude, it sounds like you're compensatin' for something... I can't believe how long you managed to stretch that metaphor | ||
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darkmetal505
United States639 Posts
On September 12 2010 06:29 l0st_romantic wrote: Dude, it sounds like you're compensatin' for something... I can't believe how long you managed to stretch that metaphor Haha, my broodwar e-peen would be in the negatives compared to these dudes. | ||
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phosphorylation
United States2935 Posts
On September 12 2010 06:15 darkmetal505 wrote: The original bonjwadom was for the dominance that Savior exerted and then extrapolated to the other 3. The word defines this type of relationship which is long gone because so many good players have come up. Here is a good analogy since everyone can understand phallic imagery: If BW has a 20 inch dick for perfection in gameplay, not statistics or how many titles one has won, just skill and aura, then Savior and Nada were raping with 10 inch cocks when everyone else had 5-6 inches. Sure sometimes you would get the 7-9 incher challenging them and beating them, but when fully erect, it was hard to beat Savior or Nada. Then Bisu came along and changed everything. He had been hiding his footlong and unleashed it on Savior. At the same time, all the players were slowly growing up into the big leagues. Bisu had a change to stretch his wiener into a 15 inch monster before everyone else could, but he blew it. This is where bonjwadongs ended. Now look at Flash. He's wielding a giant 19 incher and sometimes taps the limit of 20. Girls faint at the sight of his power and it is intimidating indeed. However, JD is not far behind him with 18 inches and others such as Stork, Bisu, and Effort have all grown into their 16-17 inchers. Flash has reached a position where bonjwa can't apply anymore because it's a thing of the past. Everyone now has rock solid crown jewels exceeding 12 inches (except Hyuk). Flash and many others have transcended bonjwadongs. Finally, in these last two finals, it's hard to see Flash and JD battling with full on erections because each has tried to cripple the other before they can get into full form. There isn't enough of a sample size to measure full lengths. Nevertheless, Flash's prowess is unmatched in the bedroom right now. So you can call Flash "Imbalance Terran", "God", or "Biggest Dick," but the power of the bonjwadong ended with the sub 12 inchers beating the half footers. havne't laughed this much in a post in a while you win the thread (flash is still bonjwa) | ||
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Delerium
United States324 Posts
On September 12 2010 04:20 Sephy69 wrote: I have to disagree with your comment about him 4pooling to stand a chance. Clearly in the recent Bigfile MSL in game 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okAXF6cGjq4&feature=related JD basically took him head on and just had amazing defense with fantastic defiler control. As much as I'm a fan of JD I will agree with you and say that Flash right now is the better player. I have to disagree with it too, so I'm glad somebody else brought it up first. I don't know what to say... as much as we all want to see late-game spellcaster control to decide who's the better player "once and for all" (lol), that's not how you play a series. You play a series (and, indeed, every game) with mindgames. I wrote this up in my blog. High level play often looks fragile because it's all mindgames that we don't see on screen. Flash played greedy as hell in Hana-daetoo. Jaedong has been trying for a long while to play respect-style and open greedy in response to Flash's abusive early expands. Well guess what? It hasn't been working, because Flash is a macro beast and T>Z (not to mention these maps, lol). Jaedong is a zerg god but after watching his body of work in the long term I don't feel that's his comfort zone, even though he excels at it better than any other zerg. It's fortunate that macro isn't the only aspect of gameplay that makes you good at Starcraft, or Flash would be a bonjwa, and so would a bunch of other mindless robot players. Anyways, Jaedong finally cracked; his comfort zone is micro control. You may think less of a 4 pool than you think of swarm-ultra on fighting spirit, but again, dragging every game into the lategame is not how you win a series, and it's not how you play professional starcraft. Those 4 pools were intentional and they weren't desperation whether you like it or not. They were designed to punish Flash's nearly-predictable greed. And Milkis... of course Flash is dominant right now in the rivalry. I completely agree. So was Flash in a slump last year during "Swarm Season"? If Flash is the better player, why didn't he earn his Golden Mouse in 2009 instead of Jaedong? Oh that's right, the maps were good for zerg back then... it's not flash's fault... If one was better than the other, at least one of them would be saying so in interviews. Instead, they say "we split games in practice." Someone posted "the only people who don't think flash is bonjwa are jaedong fans!!" well duh... if there's an argument, then there's no bonjwa. Flash and jaedong are clearly on the same level, ergo, there's no bonjwa. If there was a bonjwa, there'd be no argument. Everyone would be in awe of this elusive bonjwa and worship his unstoppable play. Instead we worship TWO would-be "bonjwas" in concert and fight about which one's better. Neither is better. They're both gods of starcraft with concurrent reigns. What player can touch either one? No one. Taek-bang have fallen out of favor. For a while we believed there were four, but two faded. Flash and Jaedong have made their mark on broodwar and theirs will be remembered as the rivalry to end all rivalries. * edit: * tl;dr^ is that one map pool does not a bonjwa make After writing the above post, I've had a change of heart. This might be the end of Brood War (god, I hope not, can't believe I just typed that), and I don't want to go out into that dark night fighting over bonjwa status with my fellow fans. Sure, if Brood War has a lifespan, and this is its terminus, we could say Flash was "The Last Bonjwa." That would be the historical note we end on. Flash accomplished marvelous things in 2010 and broke many records. He broke Jaedong's streak of never losing game 5. He tied his rival in wins. He broke the tournament $$ winnings record(?). He won the first-ever OSL final held in a foreign land. He tied Nada for dual-league golds and he broke a record for finals appearances and medals (?) (question marks because I don't know and it isn't important) Flash without a doubt was the last dominant player in Brood War, if this is the end (god I hope not). That would make him The Last Bonjwa, if we don't count Jaedong. Which is fine. If fans feel that way, then it's true. It's legend. I felt bonjwa was an older, sillier concept, from back when the game wasn't understood. The fact that we have to discuss whether to discredit earlier bonjwas because of map balance.. all very silly. In the latter years of broodwar I felt it was a different game, a figured out game, a game of macro-bots. Only a few people could break out from the pack and really shine. They were taekbangleessang.... and then they were only leessang. I wanted bonjwa to stay back in history where it belonged. If fans want to crown Flash "The Last Bonjwa" to say goodbye to broodwar, fine... I hope we don't have to, that we get more broodwar, and jaedong gets more chances to prove himself, Besides, Flash would prefer if we called him the Ultimate Weapon anyways  | ||
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ella_guru
Canada1741 Posts
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bluetrolls
United States139 Posts
2. Flash greedy: check 3. Flash mindless macro robot: check 4. Abusive early expansion: check 5. T > Z: check 6. Talking like it's 2009: check 7. Reality denial, Jaedong is on the same level as Flash after going 0-3 (3-9 / 25% in games played) in 3 consecutive finals: check 8. I deny reality, therefore nobody else should cherish it: check Missing: Flash turtle. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
On September 12 2010 07:23 bluetrolls wrote: 1. Imba maps: check 2. Flash greedy: check 3. Flash mindless macro robot: check 4. Abusive early expansion: check 5. T > Z: check 6. Talking like it's 2009: check 7. Reality denial, Jaedong is on the same level as Flash after going 0-3 (3-9 / 25% in games played) in 3 consecutive finals: check 8. I deny reality, therefore nobody else should cherish it: check Missing: Flash turtle. I was going to comment about how stupid of a post this is, but then I read your name. I won't bite the bait. | ||
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jalstar
United States8198 Posts
On September 12 2010 07:02 Delerium wrote: the maps are imba and jaedong was just as good in 2009 as flash is now wrong on both counts. the maps are nowhere near as imba as when nada and oov were bonjwas. Every single OSL or MSL that oov or Nada won had 7 or 8 terrans in the round of 16. In Ever 09 Flash was the only terran in the round of 8. In Hana Daetoo MSL and the current OSL Flash was the only terran in the semifinals. The only league Flash won with blatantly imbalanced maps (around the level of the maps oov and Nada won on) was bigfile. Jaedong, from January 23 2009 (his first win in the batoo OSL) to January 23 2010 (NATE MSL finals) went 124-52 (70%) with 3 medals. That's definitely good enough to be a bonjwa if you go by statistics alone, but no one called him a bonjwa after that because it wasn't even clear that he was the best player in the world. If he wasn't a bonjwa then, how is he a bonjwa now after getting no more OSL/MSL wins and falling even further behind Flash? | ||
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Delerium
United States324 Posts
On September 12 2010 10:05 jalstar wrote: wrong on both counts. the maps are nowhere near as imba as when nada and oov were bonjwas. Every single OSL or MSL that oov or Nada won had 7 or 8 terrans in the round of 16. In Ever 09 Flash was the only terran in the round of 8. In Hana Daetoo MSL and the current OSL Flash was the only terran in the semifinals. The only league Flash won with blatantly imbalanced maps (around the level of the maps oov and Nada won on) was bigfile. Jaedong, from January 23 2009 (his first win in the batoo OSL) to January 23 2010 (NATE MSL finals) went 124-52 (70%) with 3 medals. That's definitely good enough to be a bonjwa if you go by statistics alone, but no one called him a bonjwa after that because it wasn't even clear that he was the best player in the world. If he wasn't a bonjwa then, how is he a bonjwa now after getting no more OSL/MSL wins and falling even further behind Flash? That's exactly my point. EXACTLY. Bonjwa is an old, silly idea. I'm not suggesting we re-write history and say "those people weren't really bonjwas because they were riding on maps," I'm suggesting we stop hearkening back to those days. Flash and Jaedong are better than that. They're the best two players ever to play the game. Trying to affix the bonjwa label to them is silly. The discussions I've had on TL today, though, especially with Smix, have softened my stubbornness: I've realized that it may become symbolically important for us fans to call Flash "the last bonjwa" as I described above because he's the last most-dominant player, and we're preemptively grieving over what feels like the loss of broodwar... ..but the two players themselves are still very even. That's why I keep referring back to what they themselves said in interviews about how even they are when they practice together. What, so you're saying: Jaedong could have been a bonjwa last year because he reached 5 golds, but he definitely can't now because Flash caught up, yet somehow FLASH is a bonjwa when he only JUST now tied Jaedong's tournament record? Wtf, seriously. The term "bonjwa" was applied to 4 players who are now complete has-beens back when the game wasn't nearly as understood as it is now. That should be the end of it. Bisu put an end to bonjwas, and we owe him a great debt. Don't get me wrong. We owe a debt to those bonjwas too. But we don't need any more... we just need the 4 historical ones. And if things go badly, we may need Flash to round it off too... :/ | ||
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_romantic
United States455 Posts
Someone posted "the only people who don't think flash is bonjwa are jaedong fans!!" well duh... if there's an argument, then there's no bonjwa. Flash and jaedong are clearly on the same level, ergo, there's no bonjwa. If there was a bonjwa, there'd be no argument. Everyone would be in awe of this elusive bonjwa and worship his unstoppable play. Wait, just because you don't agree that Flash is Bonjwa mean's he's not Bonjwa? What the hell kind of argument is that? | ||
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