Here are some arguments as to why Flash is not Bonjwa and why they are wrong:
The Maps:
True, the maps are good for terran right now. But if you say that Flash can't be bonjwa because of the maps, you have to take away that title from oov and Nada as well. During oov and Nada's time, an OSL round of 16 frequently had 9 or 10 terrans and almost no protosses. In contrast, for 3 out of Flash's 4 titles this year, he was the only terran in the semi-finals. People think that a Bonjwa has to revitalize their race because of what Boxer and Savior did but they forget there are 2 other bonjwas.
Jaedong:
If 3 Bo5 victories in a row didn't convince you that Flash was a better player I don't know what to say. The rivalry is one-sided right now. If you feel like you have to 4-pool twice in a Bo5 to have a chance you are not the better player, not even close.
Amount of time:
This was my argument as to why Flash was not bonjwa after Hana Daetoo, and I believe it was valid. However, 4 titles in a year matches or beats every bonjwa's accomplishments, and Flash has 2 silvers and a stellar win rate to go along with it.
Why isn't Jaedong a Bonjwa then?
He won 3 titles in the course of a year but he didn't fit the dominance requirement. After the NATE MSL lots of people still thought Flash was the better player. Right now there is no doubt that Flash is the better player.
While I think 3 titles in a year + being the undisputed best player is a good qualifier for bonjwa, I think the real qualifier is that no matter what criteria you use for bonjwa, a bonjwa will meet it. Flash does.
He either is, or either is not. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Flash is absolutely dominating, has an intense dominating force at this point. Anyone who tries to argue with using any sort of factoid, well, doesnt know what bonjwa means. Flash is bonjwa, if you disagree, you're probably defining it wrong ^^
There isn't a checklist for being a bonjwa or not. I think it was Hot_Bid who said once that the whole debate is ridiculous, because the mere presence of a substantive debate means that there isn't a consensus. That's the criteria; there needs to be a consensus.
I think there is now, but the whole point of arguing titles and time is irrelevant.
Way to be arbitrary!~ Just like the whole discussion! Dominant players are clear cut, like Flash and Jaedong, Savior, Oov. There's nothing to prove by labeling bonjwas when results speak for themselves. Let the koreans play with their words, no?
On September 12 2010 03:23 Milkis wrote: You can't argue why X is bonjwa.
He either is, or either is not. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Flash is absolutely dominating, has an intense dominating force at this point. Anyone who tries to argue with using any sort of factoid, well, doesnt know what bonjwa means. Flash is bonjwa, if you disagree, you're probably defining it wrong ^^
By your own logic... as it was explained to me, neither Flash or Jaedong can be bonjwa as long as the other exists. A bonjwa has to completely dominate everyone else on the scene to be a bonjwa. Flash and Jaedong are BOTH above everybody else, and while both of them are in that place, neither one is a bonjwa.
On September 12 2010 03:23 Milkis wrote: You can't argue why X is bonjwa.
He either is, or either is not. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Flash is absolutely dominating, has an intense dominating force at this point. Anyone who tries to argue with using any sort of factoid, well, doesnt know what bonjwa means. Flash is bonjwa, if you disagree, you're probably defining it wrong ^^
By your own logic... as it was explained to me, neither Flash or Jaedong can be bonjwa as long as the other exists. A bonjwa has to completely dominate everyone else on the scene to be a bonjwa. Flash and Jaedong are BOTH above everybody else, and while both of them are in that place, neither one is a bonjwa.
If anyone is a bonjwa it's flash, obviously things are different for different times, but this is the hardest time to be a bonjwa in and he's showing every game that he's by far the best and it's hard to say otherwise. Though throwing bonjwa around is annoying.
On September 12 2010 03:23 Milkis wrote: You can't argue why X is bonjwa.
He either is, or either is not. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Flash is absolutely dominating, has an intense dominating force at this point. Anyone who tries to argue with using any sort of factoid, well, doesnt know what bonjwa means. Flash is bonjwa, if you disagree, you're probably defining it wrong ^^
By your own logic... as it was explained to me, neither Flash or Jaedong can be bonjwa as long as the other exists. A bonjwa has to completely dominate everyone else on the scene to be a bonjwa. Flash and Jaedong are BOTH above everybody else, and while both of them are in that place, neither one is a bonjwa.
"There can be only one," in other words.
He has beaten him in three straight finals now. -__-
On September 12 2010 03:23 Milkis wrote: You can't argue why X is bonjwa.
He either is, or either is not. I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that Flash is absolutely dominating, has an intense dominating force at this point. Anyone who tries to argue with using any sort of factoid, well, doesnt know what bonjwa means. Flash is bonjwa, if you disagree, you're probably defining it wrong ^^
By your own logic... as it was explained to me, neither Flash or Jaedong can be bonjwa as long as the other exists. A bonjwa has to completely dominate everyone else on the scene to be a bonjwa. Flash and Jaedong are BOTH above everybody else, and while both of them are in that place, neither one is a bonjwa.
"There can be only one," in other words.
Flash beat Jaedong in 3 Bo5s in a row. I would place Flash far above Jaedong right now in terms of dominance.
On September 12 2010 03:17 jalstar wrote: Jaedong:
If 3 Bo5 victories in a row didn't convince you that Flash was a better player I don't know what to say. The rivalry is one-sided right now. If you feel like you have to 4-pool twice in a Bo5 to have a chance you are not the better player, not even close.
I have to disagree with your comment about him 4pooling to stand a chance. Clearly in the recent Bigfile MSL in game 3 JD basically took him head on and just had amazing defense with fantastic defiler control. As much as I'm a fan of JD I will agree with you and say that Flash right now is the better player.
You're pushing an open door. Ofc Flash is bonjwa, everything else would be ridicules. Obove all else, it's up to the Korean community to decide. (Which they did)
On September 12 2010 03:33 Sentenal wrote: Flash might be Bonjwa, but Bisu is still more sexy than he is.
Yeah... I think he is. I respect him more and more when I see all other protoss struggling. Also, atleast for me 4th terran bonjwa < the best zerg ever.
On September 12 2010 03:17 jalstar wrote: Jaedong:
If 3 Bo5 victories in a row didn't convince you that Flash was a better player I don't know what to say. The rivalry is one-sided right now. If you feel like you have to 4-pool twice in a Bo5 to have a chance you are not the better player, not even close.
I have to disagree with your comment about him 4pooling to stand a chance. Clearly in the recent Bigfile MSL in game 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okAXF6cGjq4&feature=related JD basically took him head on and just had amazing defense with fantastic defiler control. As much as I'm a fan of JD I will agree with you and say that Flash right now is the better player.
I saw that game. I also saw some great wins that Hwasin, Midas, and Iris had over Savior. But they all lost the Bo5 in the end.
On September 12 2010 03:17 jalstar wrote: Jaedong:
If 3 Bo5 victories in a row didn't convince you that Flash was a better player I don't know what to say. The rivalry is one-sided right now. If you feel like you have to 4-pool twice in a Bo5 to have a chance you are not the better player, not even close.
I have to disagree with your comment about him 4pooling to stand a chance. Clearly in the recent Bigfile MSL in game 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okAXF6cGjq4&feature=related JD basically took him head on and just had amazing defense with fantastic defiler control. As much as I'm a fan of JD I will agree with you and say that Flash right now is the better player.
I saw that game. I also saw some great wins that Hwasin, Midas, and Iris had over Savior. But they all lost the Bo5 in the end.
Sure they lost, but that doesn't mean they didn't stand a chance(as far as I know)which is the point I'm trying to make with JD and I know that JD can stand a chance.
The original bonjwadom was for the dominance that Savior exerted and then extrapolated to the other 3. The word defines this type of relationship which is long gone because so many good players have come up. Here is a good analogy since everyone can understand phallic imagery:
If BW has a 20 inch dick for perfection in gameplay, not statistics or how many titles one has won, just skill and aura, then Savior and Nada were raping with 10 inch cocks when everyone else had 5-6 inches. Sure sometimes you would get the 7-9 incher challenging them and beating them, but when fully erect, it was hard to beat Savior or Nada.
Then Bisu came along and changed everything. He had been hiding his footlong and unleashed it on Savior. At the same time, all the players were slowly growing up into the big leagues. Bisu had a change to stretch his wiener into a 15 inch monster before everyone else could, but he blew it. This is where bonjwadongs ended.
Now look at Flash. He's wielding a giant 19 incher and sometimes taps the limit of 20. Girls faint at the sight of his power and it is intimidating indeed. However, JD is not far behind him with 18 inches and others such as Stork, Bisu, and Effort have all grown into their 16-17 inchers. Flash has reached a position where bonjwa can't apply anymore because it's a thing of the past. Everyone now has rock solid crown jewels exceeding 12 inches (except Hyuk). Flash and many others have transcended bonjwadongs.
Finally, in these last two finals, it's hard to see Flash and JD battling with full on erections because each has tried to cripple the other before they can get into full form. There isn't enough of a sample size to measure full lengths. Nevertheless, Flash's prowess is unmatched in the bedroom right now.
So you can call Flash "Imbalance Terran", "God", or "Biggest Dick," but the power of the bonjwadong ended with the sub 12 inchers beating the half footers.
Flash feels unbeatable and dominant to me. Maybe he loses a game every now and then, but so did Savior, Nada, Oov, etc; but it just doesn't even seem possible for Flash to lose a series. A few people have put up fights, i.e. Fantasy, but it still felt inevitable that Flash was going to win. Yes Jaedong beat him at WCG, but he is far above anyone else and Flash allegedly practiced little to none for the series. You just have this feeling going into every match that Flash will roll over his opponent.
To me thats what I think of when I think of Bonjwa.
I am a huge Jaedong fan, but I really do feel Flash is the better play, I even feel Flash was toying with Jaedong a bit and had all the games in his hands (even when he lost)
obv flash is the best player that has ever existed, whats to argue?
im a jd and a flash fanboi btw.
my favourite player by a slight margin is jaedong, just cause flash is so strong that its hard to relate. jaedong frequently looks like he might not win, while every time flash loses its a big surprise.
On September 12 2010 06:16 SkelA wrote: Flash is better than bonjwa. We need a new word for him....maybe god ?
Can't be god. God must be who he has been practicing with to feel he is severly lacking and that his record against protoss can be mostly attributed to luck.
On September 12 2010 06:15 darkmetal505 wrote: The original bonjwadom was for the dominance that Savior exerted and then extrapolated to the other 3. The word defines this type of relationship which is long gone because so many good players have come up. Here is a good analogy since everyone can understand phallic imagery:
If BW has a 20 inch dick for perfection in gameplay, not statistics or how many titles one has won, just skill and aura, then Savior and Nada were raping with 10 inch cocks when everyone else had 5-6 inches. Sure sometimes you would get the 7-9 incher challenging them and beating them, but when fully erect, it was hard to beat Savior or Nada.
Then Bisu came along and changed everything. He had been hiding his footlong and unleashed it on Savior. At the same time, all the players were slowly growing up into the big leagues. Bisu had a change to stretch his wiener into a 15 inch monster before everyone else could, but he blew it. This is where bonjwadongs ended.
Now look at Flash. He's wielding a giant 19 incher and sometimes taps the limit of 20. Girls faint at the sight of his power and it is intimidating indeed. However, JD is not far behind him with 18 inches and others such as Stork, Bisu, and Effort have all grown into their 16-17 inchers. Flash has reached a position where bonjwa can't apply anymore because it's a thing of the past. Everyone now has rock solid crown jewels exceeding 12 inches (except Hyuk). Flash and many others have transcended bonjwadongs.
Finally, in these last two finals, it's hard to see Flash and JD battling with full on erections because each has tried to cripple the other before they can get into full form. There isn't enough of a sample size to measure full lengths. Nevertheless, Flash's prowess is unmatched in the bedroom right now.
So you can call Flash "Imbalance Terran", "God", or "Biggest Dick," but the power of the bonjwadong ended with the sub 12 inchers beating the half footers.
Dude, it sounds like you're compensatin' for something...
I can't believe how long you managed to stretch that metaphor
On September 12 2010 06:15 darkmetal505 wrote: The original bonjwadom was for the dominance that Savior exerted and then extrapolated to the other 3. The word defines this type of relationship which is long gone because so many good players have come up. Here is a good analogy since everyone can understand phallic imagery:
If BW has a 20 inch dick for perfection in gameplay, not statistics or how many titles one has won, just skill and aura, then Savior and Nada were raping with 10 inch cocks when everyone else had 5-6 inches. Sure sometimes you would get the 7-9 incher challenging them and beating them, but when fully erect, it was hard to beat Savior or Nada.
Then Bisu came along and changed everything. He had been hiding his footlong and unleashed it on Savior. At the same time, all the players were slowly growing up into the big leagues. Bisu had a change to stretch his wiener into a 15 inch monster before everyone else could, but he blew it. This is where bonjwadongs ended.
Now look at Flash. He's wielding a giant 19 incher and sometimes taps the limit of 20. Girls faint at the sight of his power and it is intimidating indeed. However, JD is not far behind him with 18 inches and others such as Stork, Bisu, and Effort have all grown into their 16-17 inchers. Flash has reached a position where bonjwa can't apply anymore because it's a thing of the past. Everyone now has rock solid crown jewels exceeding 12 inches (except Hyuk). Flash and many others have transcended bonjwadongs.
Finally, in these last two finals, it's hard to see Flash and JD battling with full on erections because each has tried to cripple the other before they can get into full form. There isn't enough of a sample size to measure full lengths. Nevertheless, Flash's prowess is unmatched in the bedroom right now.
So you can call Flash "Imbalance Terran", "God", or "Biggest Dick," but the power of the bonjwadong ended with the sub 12 inchers beating the half footers.
Dude, it sounds like you're compensatin' for something...
I can't believe how long you managed to stretch that metaphor
Haha, my broodwar e-peen would be in the negatives compared to these dudes.
On September 12 2010 06:15 darkmetal505 wrote: The original bonjwadom was for the dominance that Savior exerted and then extrapolated to the other 3. The word defines this type of relationship which is long gone because so many good players have come up. Here is a good analogy since everyone can understand phallic imagery:
If BW has a 20 inch dick for perfection in gameplay, not statistics or how many titles one has won, just skill and aura, then Savior and Nada were raping with 10 inch cocks when everyone else had 5-6 inches. Sure sometimes you would get the 7-9 incher challenging them and beating them, but when fully erect, it was hard to beat Savior or Nada.
Then Bisu came along and changed everything. He had been hiding his footlong and unleashed it on Savior. At the same time, all the players were slowly growing up into the big leagues. Bisu had a change to stretch his wiener into a 15 inch monster before everyone else could, but he blew it. This is where bonjwadongs ended.
Now look at Flash. He's wielding a giant 19 incher and sometimes taps the limit of 20. Girls faint at the sight of his power and it is intimidating indeed. However, JD is not far behind him with 18 inches and others such as Stork, Bisu, and Effort have all grown into their 16-17 inchers. Flash has reached a position where bonjwa can't apply anymore because it's a thing of the past. Everyone now has rock solid crown jewels exceeding 12 inches (except Hyuk). Flash and many others have transcended bonjwadongs.
Finally, in these last two finals, it's hard to see Flash and JD battling with full on erections because each has tried to cripple the other before they can get into full form. There isn't enough of a sample size to measure full lengths. Nevertheless, Flash's prowess is unmatched in the bedroom right now.
So you can call Flash "Imbalance Terran", "God", or "Biggest Dick," but the power of the bonjwadong ended with the sub 12 inchers beating the half footers.
havne't laughed this much in a post in a while you win the thread (flash is still bonjwa)
On September 12 2010 03:17 jalstar wrote: Jaedong:
If 3 Bo5 victories in a row didn't convince you that Flash was a better player I don't know what to say. The rivalry is one-sided right now. If you feel like you have to 4-pool twice in a Bo5 to have a chance you are not the better player, not even close.
I have to disagree with your comment about him 4pooling to stand a chance. Clearly in the recent Bigfile MSL in game 3 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=okAXF6cGjq4&feature=related JD basically took him head on and just had amazing defense with fantastic defiler control. As much as I'm a fan of JD I will agree with you and say that Flash right now is the better player.
I have to disagree with it too, so I'm glad somebody else brought it up first.
I don't know what to say... as much as we all want to see late-game spellcaster control to decide who's the better player "once and for all" (lol), that's not how you play a series. You play a series (and, indeed, every game) with mindgames. I wrote this up in my blog. High level play often looks fragile because it's all mindgames that we don't see on screen. Flash played greedy as hell in Hana-daetoo. Jaedong has been trying for a long while to play respect-style and open greedy in response to Flash's abusive early expands. Well guess what? It hasn't been working, because Flash is a macro beast and T>Z (not to mention these maps, lol). Jaedong is a zerg god but after watching his body of work in the long term I don't feel that's his comfort zone, even though he excels at it better than any other zerg.
It's fortunate that macro isn't the only aspect of gameplay that makes you good at Starcraft, or Flash would be a bonjwa, and so would a bunch of other mindless robot players.
Anyways, Jaedong finally cracked; his comfort zone is micro control. You may think less of a 4 pool than you think of swarm-ultra on fighting spirit, but again, dragging every game into the lategame is not how you win a series, and it's not how you play professional starcraft. Those 4 pools were intentional and they weren't desperation whether you like it or not. They were designed to punish Flash's nearly-predictable greed.
And Milkis... of course Flash is dominant right now in the rivalry. I completely agree. So was Flash in a slump last year during "Swarm Season"? If Flash is the better player, why didn't he earn his Golden Mouse in 2009 instead of Jaedong? Oh that's right, the maps were good for zerg back then... it's not flash's fault...
If one was better than the other, at least one of them would be saying so in interviews. Instead, they say "we split games in practice."
Someone posted "the only people who don't think flash is bonjwa are jaedong fans!!" well duh... if there's an argument, then there's no bonjwa. Flash and jaedong are clearly on the same level, ergo, there's no bonjwa. If there was a bonjwa, there'd be no argument. Everyone would be in awe of this elusive bonjwa and worship his unstoppable play.
Instead we worship TWO would-be "bonjwas" in concert and fight about which one's better. Neither is better. They're both gods of starcraft with concurrent reigns. What player can touch either one? No one. Taek-bang have fallen out of favor. For a while we believed there were four, but two faded. Flash and Jaedong have made their mark on broodwar and theirs will be remembered as the rivalry to end all rivalries.
* edit: *
tl;dr^ is that one map pool does not a bonjwa make
After writing the above post, I've had a change of heart. This might be the end of Brood War (god, I hope not, can't believe I just typed that), and I don't want to go out into that dark night fighting over bonjwa status with my fellow fans.
Sure, if Brood War has a lifespan, and this is its terminus, we could say Flash was "The Last Bonjwa." That would be the historical note we end on. Flash accomplished marvelous things in 2010 and broke many records. He broke Jaedong's streak of never losing game 5. He tied his rival in wins. He broke the tournament $$ winnings record(?). He won the first-ever OSL final held in a foreign land. He tied Nada for dual-league golds and he broke a record for finals appearances and medals (?) (question marks because I don't know and it isn't important)
Flash without a doubt was the last dominant player in Brood War, if this is the end (god I hope not). That would make him The Last Bonjwa, if we don't count Jaedong. Which is fine. If fans feel that way, then it's true. It's legend.
I felt bonjwa was an older, sillier concept, from back when the game wasn't understood. The fact that we have to discuss whether to discredit earlier bonjwas because of map balance.. all very silly. In the latter years of broodwar I felt it was a different game, a figured out game, a game of macro-bots. Only a few people could break out from the pack and really shine. They were taekbangleessang.... and then they were only leessang.
I wanted bonjwa to stay back in history where it belonged. If fans want to crown Flash "The Last Bonjwa" to say goodbye to broodwar, fine... I hope we don't have to, that we get more broodwar, and jaedong gets more chances to prove himself,
Besides, Flash would prefer if we called him the Ultimate Weapon anyways
1. Imba maps: check 2. Flash greedy: check 3. Flash mindless macro robot: check 4. Abusive early expansion: check 5. T > Z: check 6. Talking like it's 2009: check 7. Reality denial, Jaedong is on the same level as Flash after going 0-3 (3-9 / 25% in games played) in 3 consecutive finals: check 8. I deny reality, therefore nobody else should cherish it: check
On September 12 2010 07:23 bluetrolls wrote: 1. Imba maps: check 2. Flash greedy: check 3. Flash mindless macro robot: check 4. Abusive early expansion: check 5. T > Z: check 6. Talking like it's 2009: check 7. Reality denial, Jaedong is on the same level as Flash after going 0-3 (3-9 / 25% in games played) in 3 consecutive finals: check 8. I deny reality, therefore nobody else should cherish it: check
Missing: Flash turtle.
I was going to comment about how stupid of a post this is, but then I read your name. I won't bite the bait.
On September 12 2010 07:02 Delerium wrote: the maps are imba and jaedong was just as good in 2009 as flash is now
wrong on both counts.
the maps are nowhere near as imba as when nada and oov were bonjwas. Every single OSL or MSL that oov or Nada won had 7 or 8 terrans in the round of 16.
In Ever 09 Flash was the only terran in the round of 8. In Hana Daetoo MSL and the current OSL Flash was the only terran in the semifinals.
The only league Flash won with blatantly imbalanced maps (around the level of the maps oov and Nada won on) was bigfile.
Jaedong, from January 23 2009 (his first win in the batoo OSL) to January 23 2010 (NATE MSL finals) went 124-52 (70%) with 3 medals. That's definitely good enough to be a bonjwa if you go by statistics alone, but no one called him a bonjwa after that because it wasn't even clear that he was the best player in the world. If he wasn't a bonjwa then, how is he a bonjwa now after getting no more OSL/MSL wins and falling even further behind Flash?
On September 12 2010 07:02 Delerium wrote: the maps are imba and jaedong was just as good in 2009 as flash is now
wrong on both counts.
the maps are nowhere near as imba as when nada and oov were bonjwas. Every single OSL or MSL that oov or Nada won had 7 or 8 terrans in the round of 16.
In Ever 09 Flash was the only terran in the round of 8. In Hana Daetoo MSL and the current OSL Flash was the only terran in the semifinals.
The only league Flash won with blatantly imbalanced maps (around the level of the maps oov and Nada won on) was bigfile.
Jaedong, from January 23 2009 (his first win in the batoo OSL) to January 23 2010 (NATE MSL finals) went 124-52 (70%) with 3 medals. That's definitely good enough to be a bonjwa if you go by statistics alone, but no one called him a bonjwa after that because it wasn't even clear that he was the best player in the world. If he wasn't a bonjwa then, how is he a bonjwa now after getting no more OSL/MSL wins and falling even further behind Flash?
That's exactly my point. EXACTLY. Bonjwa is an old, silly idea. I'm not suggesting we re-write history and say "those people weren't really bonjwas because they were riding on maps," I'm suggesting we stop hearkening back to those days.
Flash and Jaedong are better than that. They're the best two players ever to play the game. Trying to affix the bonjwa label to them is silly. The discussions I've had on TL today, though, especially with Smix, have softened my stubbornness: I've realized that it may become symbolically important for us fans to call Flash "the last bonjwa" as I described above because he's the last most-dominant player, and we're preemptively grieving over what feels like the loss of broodwar...
..but the two players themselves are still very even. That's why I keep referring back to what they themselves said in interviews about how even they are when they practice together. What, so you're saying: Jaedong could have been a bonjwa last year because he reached 5 golds, but he definitely can't now because Flash caught up, yet somehow FLASH is a bonjwa when he only JUST now tied Jaedong's tournament record? Wtf, seriously.
The term "bonjwa" was applied to 4 players who are now complete has-beens back when the game wasn't nearly as understood as it is now. That should be the end of it. Bisu put an end to bonjwas, and we owe him a great debt.
Don't get me wrong. We owe a debt to those bonjwas too. But we don't need any more... we just need the 4 historical ones. And if things go badly, we may need Flash to round it off too... :/
Someone posted "the only people who don't think flash is bonjwa are jaedong fans!!" well duh... if there's an argument, then there's no bonjwa. Flash and jaedong are clearly on the same level, ergo, there's no bonjwa. If there was a bonjwa, there'd be no argument. Everyone would be in awe of this elusive bonjwa and worship his unstoppable play.
Wait, just because you don't agree that Flash is Bonjwa mean's he's not Bonjwa? What the hell kind of argument is that?
I agree with you completely Delerium. The term bonjwa expired a long time ago with the old generation signified by the end of Savior's reign. No one is denying what Flash has done, it's just he deserves another name (and JD also).
On September 12 2010 03:17 jalstar wrote: Jaedong: [snip] If you feel like you have to 4-pool twice in a Bo5 to have a chance you are not the better player, not even close.
How about rax before supply twice in a Bo5?
I don't like this argument. Flash is not so far ahead of JD if they both just agree to play standard every time, I think. Flash knows this, so he doesn't play standard every game (in the MSL and OSL he showed off a lot of different things, none of which fit into the "standard 1 rax FE" build perfectly). JD knows that he can't win every time in that case either, so he doesn't just play standard 12 hatch 11 pool all the time.
Honestly I was kind of disgusted that JD didn't think 4pool was worth trying in either of the past 2 MSL finals, and he lost to 14CC a lot in both of those finals. If JD could win despite conceding the early game to Flash by not threatening aggression then he'd be even more of a monster than he already is, but he can't and he knows it.
If they both agree to play straight-up by-the-book standard, I think the games would be pretty even. Thing is ... we've seen maybe one game that really falls into that category in the past four finals (from NATE MSL to last OSL, not counting WCG) (I'm thinking of game 3 in Bigfile MSL, which JD won). Both players know it'd be pretty even, and neither is content to leave it at that.
The reason Flash is so dominating is he's two steps ahead of everyone else strategically. (Well, I assume that's the case anyway; I admit to only really watching ZvT and not all that many games of that any more. I watched all four of the relevant finals though).
"Bonjwa expired". Though experiment: change the places of Jaedong and Flash for the past year. Imagine Jaedong: 3 back-to-back double finals, 4 golds, Proleague win, only player breaching 2400 ELO, defeating Flash in 3 consecutive finals. Would you think Jaedong be anything but Bonjwa? Would Flash be anything but the kid with a great start, but who burned out too soon and never could raise to the level of Jaedong?
On September 12 2010 03:17 jalstar wrote: Jaedong: [snip] If you feel like you have to 4-pool twice in a Bo5 to have a chance you are not the better player, not even close.
How about rax before supply twice in a Bo5?
I don't like this argument. Flash is not so far ahead of JD if they both just agree to play standard every time, I think. Flash knows this, so he doesn't play standard every game (in the MSL and OSL he showed off a lot of different things, none of which fit into the "standard 1 rax FE" build perfectly). JD knows that he can't win every time in that case either, so he doesn't just play standard 12 hatch 11 pool all the time.
Honestly I was kind of disgusted that JD didn't think 4pool was worth trying in either of the past 2 MSL finals, and he lost to 14CC a lot in both of those finals. If JD could win despite conceding the early game to Flash by not threatening aggression then he'd be even more of a monster than he already is, but he can't and he knows it.
If they both agree to play straight-up by-the-book standard, I think the games would be pretty even. Thing is ... we've seen maybe one game that really falls into that category in the past four finals (from NATE MSL to last OSL, not counting WCG) (I'm thinking of game 3 in Bigfile MSL, which JD won). Both players know it'd be pretty even, and neither is content to leave it at that.
The reason Flash is so dominating is he's two steps ahead of everyone else strategically. (Well, I assume that's the case anyway; I admit to only really watching ZvT and not all that many games of that any more. I watched all four of the relevant finals though).
Exactly, which is what I've been emphasizing over the past day. Playing standard is not how you win a series, and it's not how you rise to the top professionally.
A lot of people think that the better player plays standard because they think: "I'm *better* at this game, so the safest build is the one that will let me win. I don't have to change my strategy, because I'm *better*. My unit control is better, my production is better, my game sense is better. If I play safe, I'll win."
This only works in low level play, where your enemy's usurpations of your play will be feeble. But imagine a progamer who only plays standard. Every game, without fail, he opens standard. They've never opened anything but standard in a televised game in their life. S-class players and even A-team snipers would eat this player alive. They'd craft a build specifically designed to destroy a standard build with standard scout patterns and timings, and they'd do it differently every time, and the standard progamer would lose, every time.
You don't think Flash and Jaedong know this, jalstar? You don't think that on every map they're saying to themselves "How can I open so that Flash/Jaedong won't be ahead of me?"
So if Jaedong 4-pooled twice and that makes him not the better player, and Flash raxed before supply twice (one of which was a 5-rax, lol?), does that mean neither of them is better than the other? Oh shit. What a concept.
If broodwar dies we can still call Flash the last bonjwa, though. He spanked Jaedong in tourney finals this year, and good on him for doing it. I'm still bitter about the maps but w/e, it's just a game I watch for fun
4-pool argument is bad. Jalstar is usually better than that.
Regardless, Flash is bonjwa. I love Jaedong more than anything and nothing upset me more than seeing him lose both finals. The second jd typed gg in game 4 i powered off my laptop and thought, "Damn it. Flash is bonjwa."
He has an aura of invincibility right now. When I watch jaedong games, I am afraid he might lose. With Flash, I am afraid he might never lose =(.
I can't wait for next season to see what drama unfolds!
I didn't read too much TL lately but i come in after OSL finals and everyone acts like psychos who were hiding in a cave for 2 years to finally loudly shout BONJWA, HE IS BONJWA what the hell
True, the maps are good for terran right now. But if you say that Flash can't be bonjwa because of the maps, you have to take away that title from oov and Nada as well. During oov and Nada's time, an OSL round of 16 frequently had 9 or 10 terrans and almost no protosses. In contrast, for 3 out of Flash's 4 titles this year, he was the only terran in the semi-finals. People think that a Bonjwa has to revitalize their race because of what Boxer and Savior did but they forget there are 2 other bonjwas.
I'm OK with that. Actually we should take it away form Boxer too. Fuck Terran maps ~_~
On September 13 2010 10:00 vnlegend wrote: Flash is not bonjwa because I don't agree that he is. And BW has pretty much ended for me so Flash will never be bonjwa. gg flash fans.
Are you a creationist IRL? The Civil War ended 145 years ago, you can surrender now. Oh and by the way, + Show Spoiler +
On September 13 2010 04:59 Emon_ wrote: Lest we forget, Flash got 3-0 body slammed by Effort. Thats not very Bonjwa.
Oh sorry. Boxer, Nada, Savior, Oov never lost right?
Savior couldn't qualify for OSL for 2 seasons. So he can't be bonjwa Oov got demolished by July. So he can't be bonjwa Nada got demolished by Oov. So he can't be bojwa. Boxer lost finals to Reach, Oov and Anytime. So he can't be bonjwa.
And Flash lost 3:2 FYI
Flash is bonjwa. Korean community has already decided. Only Jaedong hardcore fans seems like they can't acknowledge it.
On September 13 2010 04:59 Emon_ wrote: Lest we forget, Flash got 3-0 body slammed by Effort. Thats not very Bonjwa.
Oh sorry. Boxer, Nada, Savior, Oov never lost right?
Savior couldn't qualify for OSL for 2 seasons. So he can't be bonjwa Oov got demolished by July. So he can't be bonjwa Nada got demolished by Oov. So he can't be bojwa. Boxer lost finals to Reach, Oov and Anytime. So he can't be bonjwa.
And Flash lost 3:2 FYI
Flash is bonjwa. Korean community has already decided. Only Jaedong hardcore fans seems like they can't acknowledge it.
So funny, some of them even would rather Flash be characterized as "God" than bonjwa... what is up with them...
On September 13 2010 04:59 Emon_ wrote: Lest we forget, Flash got 3-0 body slammed by Effort. Thats not very Bonjwa.
Flash played 25 matches since the break after 2009 WCG Korea. He won 22 and lost 3. Of these his match against Effort was clearly his worst performance. I guess you're right, on his very worst days his game isn't quite bonjwa level. It's only good enough to give one of the top players a serious run for their money.
On September 12 2010 06:15 darkmetal505 wrote: The original bonjwadom was for the dominance that Savior exerted and then extrapolated to the other 3. The word defines this type of relationship which is long gone because so many good players have come up. Here is a good analogy since everyone can understand phallic imagery:
If BW has a 20 inch dick for perfection in gameplay, not statistics or how many titles one has won, just skill and aura, then Savior and Nada were raping with 10 inch cocks when everyone else had 5-6 inches. Sure sometimes you would get the 7-9 incher challenging them and beating them, but when fully erect, it was hard to beat Savior or Nada.
Then Bisu came along and changed everything. He had been hiding his footlong and unleashed it on Savior. At the same time, all the players were slowly growing up into the big leagues. Bisu had a change to stretch his wiener into a 15 inch monster before everyone else could, but he blew it. This is where bonjwadongs ended.
Now look at Flash. He's wielding a giant 19 incher and sometimes taps the limit of 20. Girls faint at the sight of his power and it is intimidating indeed. However, JD is not far behind him with 18 inches and others such as Stork, Bisu, and Effort have all grown into their 16-17 inchers. Flash has reached a position where bonjwa can't apply anymore because it's a thing of the past. Everyone now has rock solid crown jewels exceeding 12 inches (except Hyuk). Flash and many others have transcended bonjwadongs.
Finally, in these last two finals, it's hard to see Flash and JD battling with full on erections because each has tried to cripple the other before they can get into full form. There isn't enough of a sample size to measure full lengths. Nevertheless, Flash's prowess is unmatched in the bedroom right now.
So you can call Flash "Imbalance Terran", "God", or "Biggest Dick," but the power of the bonjwadong ended with the sub 12 inchers beating the half footers.
When the only guys who have a slight chance to beat Flash in a bo3 or bo5 are the #1 zerg and the #2 zerg and they have to play unorthodox / cheesy, well i don't think that we are allowed to question his bonjwa status.
On September 13 2010 08:32 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On September 14 2010 05:02 jalstar wrote: well to be fair it was flash and not effort cheesing in game 4.
yup and getting unlucky. What about game 3 and 5 ? That was really octozergish imo.
well effort practices with flash a lot and hadn't cheesed much in televised games before then, i doubt any other zerg could have gotten away with mass lings twice in a bo5.
On September 14 2010 04:40 Boblion wrote: When the only guys who have a slight chance to beat Flash in a bo3 or bo5 are the #1 zerg and the #2 zerg and they have to play unorthodox / cheesy, well i don't think that we are allowed to question his bonjwa status.
On September 13 2010 08:32 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
On September 13 2010 04:59 Emon_ wrote: Lest we forget, Flash got 3-0 body slammed by Effort. Thats not very Bonjwa.
3-2 actually :3
3-2 with cheese. Effort got smashed in the two first games ( it was standard macro games ).
Do you really have to copypasta your post from another thread?
Why do people freaking think that progamers have to play a certain way to be legit? If Flash is susceptible to aggressive openings, then by all means do it! Game 3 was Flash being an idiot and moving out with his marines prematurely and getting owned by zerglings. There wasn't anything cheesy about that. If you were presented with such an opportunity to take the game, why wouldn't you pounce on it? So please stop acting like "oh Flash lost to cheese, so it doesn't count."
Flash played pretty unorthodox against Jaedong if you even watched the games. In the latest MSL the first two games was Flash executing timing attacks that I've never seen before, but please correct me if Flash has done the "prevent mutas from scouting the base, get an extremely early +1 attack and push out with Goliaths + hidden MnM" or "quick 4 fac +1 armor, mass goliath" builds before. Unorthodox indeed. Also, he "cheesed" in two of the games in the OSL.
I hate "oh Flash went 9-3 and Jaedong only won 25% of the games, means Flash dominated" argument. The closest Jaedong could've gotten is 40% anyway (2-3,2-3,2-3). That specific stat shows nothing to me in terms of domination because half of the games was one player trying something brand spanking new or "cheesing", trying to gain the upper hand. Also stop saying Jaedong seemed "desperate" by 4 pooling twice. They were clearly meant to throw Flash off even footing. If he was truly desperate, he would've done it again in the last game because he had nothing to lose. Rather he went 12 hatch, preparing for a seemingly standard game which ended up not being the case.
The reason why I'm reluctant to call Flash bonjwa is because I haven't seen enough games where Jaedong is full fledged and Flash is shutting him down no matter what. When I picture bonjwa, I see Nada/Oov rolling over massive Zerg armies throwing themselves fruitlessly because they have no other option. I see Nada trying again and again pushing into Savior's natural only to be stopped by clutch swarms and then being pushed all the way back into his base because he can do nothing else. Each party knew what the other was going to do, but one was unable to stop it. The reason why I'm saying bonjwa (rating it by this kind of dominance) can't exist anymore, is because this skill gap is too close. People are going to try new builds and new starts to beat their opponents.
All these recent games have been a hodgepodge of strategies being thrown at each other. In the MSL Flash tried some new strats and gained the upperhand because JD prepared for standard games. When JD tried to counter in the OSL by trying early aggression, Flash was already a step ahead, for the most part.
The only games where I see something worth looking are: Game 3 of the MSL where Jaedong took Flash to late game and beat him convincingly, Game 5 of the MSL where Flash played extremely aggressive and punished Jaedong for taking a 4th to early, Game 1 of the OSL where Flash again showed sexcellent aggressive play shutting down Jaedong's third right before the defiler arrived, and Game 4 of the OSL (to a certain extent) because Flash beautifully denied Jaedong's drops and took out zerg expos like fat kid taking out chocolate cake.
Sure, Flash won most of the games, but to me, I haven't seen enough of the domination factor to really qualify the skill gap between Jaedong and Flash that everyone is exclaiming about. I am not saying Flash can't do it however, but as Jaedong fan first, I'm going to play devil's advocate and not give Flash the benefit of the doubt until I see more games showcasing this.
Finally, I don't want people to think that I'm demeaning Flash's record somehow. That is what is truly impressive to me. To be this strong and be at the top for quite a while. For those that are presenting Flash as a bonjwa for his record, I must appeal to accept Jaedong as one also because of a similar record (I think the Korean netizens have crowned both). Someone in the other thread said something like "how can they give Jaedong bonjwa status if he just LOST a final?" To that I say, how can you not when Flash just now tied Jaedong in the number of golds.
However I say neither can be bonjwa because the gameplay I use to determine this status does not happen anymore . This is why I'm advocating new names/definitions for both.
''How can you not when Flash just now tied Jaedong in the number of golds''
Because those golds were collected during the course of his entire career, and he hasn't won one since early this year. Flash has now gotten 4 Golds during roughly a 9 month period. JD is, when you summarize their overall accomplishments, close to Flash in the race for the title as GOAT, but he was never really a bonjwa. He got close, and if it wasn't for Flash he would've been, but he never made it all the way.
''The closest Jaedong could've gotten is 40% anyway (2-3,2-3,2-3).''
No, JD could've gotten 100%. Or do you think it was impossible for him to win? 9-3 is, when you look at the big picture, dominating.
And all the other things you say are pretty silly. I mean, just because a player prepares new builds to defeat his opponent means he can't be bonjwa? Come on.
Nada and Savior got their medals over the course of their careers also. What I meant about the 40% comment is that people are using the 9-3 score as a determinant for the ass raping Jaedong got from Flash without looking at the quality of the games. I was making a point that the closest Jaedong could've gotten to Flash in terms of games won without changing the overall result is 40%. If he did, would you still say Flash dominated then?
Maybe I'm not expressing my criterion for bonjwa correctly. If I beat you 9 games by 4 pooling and you beat me in 3 straight up games, does that mean I, "when you look at the big picture", dominated? Of course not, you have to look at the games yo.
I said I wouldn't give Flash the benefit of the doubt not he because prepared new builds but BECAUSE I just haven't seen enough evidence to thoroughly say that he rapes Jaedong's face day and night. For that to happen I need to see him beat Jaedong playing at his best and become utterly helpless in front of Flash. This is what I saw in the other bonjwas.
I can also note that the time period of each bonjwa brought forth big paradigm shifts in the metagame whether in terms of mechanics or a revolutionary play style.
On September 14 2010 11:44 darkmetal505 wrote: Nada and Savior got their medals over the course of their careers also.
Nada got 4 golds in a year, Savior got 3 golds in a year. I guess Jaedong also got 3 golds in a year but you couldn't say he was the best player after the NATE MSL.
On September 14 2010 11:44 darkmetal505 wrote: Nada and Savior got their medals over the course of their careers also. What I meant about the 40% comment is that people are using the 9-3 score as a determinant for the ass raping Jaedong got from Flash without looking at the quality of the games. I was making a point that the closest Jaedong could've gotten to Flash in terms of games won without changing the overall result is 40%. If he did, would you still say Flash dominated then?
Maybe I'm not expressing my criterion for bonjwa correctly. If I beat you 9 games by 4 pooling and you beat me in 3 straight up games, does that mean I, "when you look at the big picture", dominated? Of course not, you have to look at the games yo.
I said I wouldn't give Flash the benefit of the doubt not he because prepared new builds but BECAUSE I just haven't seen enough evidence to thoroughly say that he rapes Jaedong's face day and night. For that to happen I need to see him beat Jaedong playing at his best and become utterly helpless in front of Flash. This is what I saw in the other bonjwas.
I can also note that the time period of each bonjwa brought forth big paradigm shifts in the metagame whether in terms of mechanics or a revolutionary play style.
Assuming like you said JD won 40% of the games of course it wouldn't be Flash just straight up dominating. But fact is, Flash won 9-3.
Frankly I don't understand the point you made at all, 9-3 IS dominating no matter how you see it and judging from the games Jaedong won I'm surprised he even got as many as 3 wins. Flash basically allowed him to win 2 games due to his massive blunders and in the game that I consider Jaedong to have fully showed his skill he still won by the skin of his teeth and only because of a clutch darkswarm that changed the game. Not to discredit Jaedong's wins but I wasn't very impressed with them aside from the game on EotS where he was brilliant.
It's pretty telling how scary Flash is when after 3 consecutive bo5s you still have yet to see "Jaedong playing at his best" when you consider that JD used to be the master of LWWW clutch and almost unbeatable at bo5, you'd think that he would definitely have shown his best in more games. However, Flash stopped him from executing his game plans and read him like a book. Flash could read his every move, culminating in the beautiful game on dreamliner when he seemed to have maphack and defended every drop and knew what jaedong has been doing the whole game. That is the very essence of dominating. You don't allow the opponent to do what he does best (i.e. messing up his timings for muta). You execute your plans no matter what plans your opponent has up his sleeves (deny JD's third for like what, 6 times?). You control your opponent. Which is what we saw. And I don't doubt that your wait to see a JD at full flow versus Flash is futile. That would never happen now because the mental edge Flash has over JD is huge right now.
On September 12 2010 06:15 darkmetal505 wrote: The original bonjwadom was for the dominance that Savior exerted and then extrapolated to the other 3. The word defines this type of relationship which is long gone because so many good players have come up. Here is a good analogy since everyone can understand phallic imagery:
If BW has a 20 inch dick for perfection in gameplay, not statistics or how many titles one has won, just skill and aura, then Savior and Nada were raping with 10 inch cocks when everyone else had 5-6 inches. Sure sometimes you would get the 7-9 incher challenging them and beating them, but when fully erect, it was hard to beat Savior or Nada.
Then Bisu came along and changed everything. He had been hiding his footlong and unleashed it on Savior. At the same time, all the players were slowly growing up into the big leagues. Bisu had a change to stretch his wiener into a 15 inch monster before everyone else could, but he blew it. This is where bonjwadongs ended.
Now look at Flash. He's wielding a giant 19 incher and sometimes taps the limit of 20. Girls faint at the sight of his power and it is intimidating indeed. However, JD is not far behind him with 18 inches and others such as Stork, Bisu, and Effort have all grown into their 16-17 inchers. Flash has reached a position where bonjwa can't apply anymore because it's a thing of the past. Everyone now has rock solid crown jewels exceeding 12 inches (except Hyuk). Flash and many others have transcended bonjwadongs.
Finally, in these last two finals, it's hard to see Flash and JD battling with full on erections because each has tried to cripple the other before they can get into full form. There isn't enough of a sample size to measure full lengths. Nevertheless, Flash's prowess is unmatched in the bedroom right now.
So you can call Flash "Imbalance Terran", "God", or "Biggest Dick," but the power of the bonjwadong ended with the sub 12 inchers beating the half thooters.
Flash beats them so hard they lose their erection though so its like... 19 inch against like 5 inch
On September 14 2010 05:55 darkmetal505 wrote: Do you really have to copypasta your post from another thread?
Well i thought it was appropriate, could have written it differently but i was lazy and pastas are good anyway
On September 14 2010 05:55 darkmetal505 wrote: Why do people freaking think that progamers have to play a certain way to be legit? If Flash is susceptible to aggressive openings, then by all means do it! Game 3 was Flash being an idiot and moving out with his marines prematurely and getting owned by zerglings. There wasn't anything cheesy about that. If you were presented with such an opportunity to take the game, why wouldn't you pounce on it? So please stop acting like "oh Flash lost to cheese, so it doesn't count."
It is not that it doesn't count but the fact that he almost never lose the 15+ minutes games is amazing because we all know that the game become significantly harder in late game, and this is where the skill of a player shine the most. Losing to a 5 pool or a mass speedling can happen against an inferior player ( don't get me wrong Effort is awesome and definitly #2 zerg but i still think that if you make a bo9 or a large sample of matchs Flash will almost always win ).
On September 14 2010 05:55 darkmetal505 wrote: Flash played pretty unorthodox against Jaedong if you even watched the games. In the latest MSL the first two games was Flash executing timing attacks that I've never seen before, but please correct me if Flash has done the "prevent mutas from scouting the base, get an extremely early +1 attack and push out with Goliaths + hidden MnM" or "quick 4 fac +1 armor, mass goliath" builds before. Unorthodox indeed. Also, he "cheesed" in two of the games in the OSL.
I want to apologize because i didn't watch the MSL and the WCG ( got spoiled and after seing the results i didn't really care ).
About the OSL yea he went early rax early in two games but what about JD play uh ? He got raped straight up in game 1 then he was all about 5 pools ... Flash can mix his play and beat everyone, standard vs cheese ( he will lose some because you can't defend perfectly vs every 5 pool ), cheese vs standard, cheese vs cheese ( This kind of games are always quite random so he will lose some ), standard vs standard ( he seems to almost never lose those ). On the other it seems that the only hope for the zerg vs Flash is early agression. It is a clear sign that they feel inferior and not confident at all against Flash in the late game. This is weakness. Think Octozerg vs Idra but at S-class level.
On September 14 2010 05:55 darkmetal505 wrote: I hate "oh Flash went 9-3 and Jaedong only won 25% of the games, means Flash dominated" argument. The closest Jaedong could've gotten is 40% anyway (2-3,2-3,2-3). That specific stat shows nothing to me in terms of domination because half of the games was one player trying something brand spanking new or "cheesing", trying to gain the upper hand. Also stop saying Jaedong seemed "desperate" by 4 pooling twice. They were clearly meant to throw Flash off even footing. If he was truly desperate, he would've done it again in the last game because he had nothing to lose. Rather he went 12 hatch, preparing for a seemingly standard game which ended up not being the case.
I don't really care about the stats tbh. I just look the games and make my own opinion. Flash rolled JD. I love JD and he is the #1 Z and #2 player but Flash is the superior player. Also i disagree with your opinion about the 4 pool but i think i won't change your ideas :p
On September 14 2010 05:55 darkmetal505 wrote: The reason why I'm reluctant to call Flash bonjwa is because I haven't seen enough games where Jaedong is full fledged and Flash is shutting him down no matter what. When I picture bonjwa, I see Nada/Oov rolling over massive Zerg armies throwing themselves fruitlessly because they have no other option. I see Nada trying again and again pushing into Savior's natural only to be stopped by clutch swarms and then being pushed all the way back into his base because he can do nothing else. Each party knew what the other was going to do, but one was unable to stop it. The reason why I'm saying bonjwa (rating it by this kind of dominance) can't exist anymore, is because this skill gap is too close. People are going to try new builds and new starts to beat their opponents.
Nada, Oov and Savior have lost games even in their prime too #_#
EPT
Dominant players are clear cut, like Flash and Jaedong, Savior, Oov. There's nothing to prove by labeling bonjwas when results speak for themselves. Let the koreans play with their words, no?
