EPT[osl spoilers] Counter-Arguments - Page 3
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darkmetal505
United States639 Posts
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crate
United States2474 Posts
On September 12 2010 03:17 jalstar wrote: Jaedong: [snip] If you feel like you have to 4-pool twice in a Bo5 to have a chance you are not the better player, not even close. How about rax before supply twice in a Bo5? I don't like this argument. Flash is not so far ahead of JD if they both just agree to play standard every time, I think. Flash knows this, so he doesn't play standard every game (in the MSL and OSL he showed off a lot of different things, none of which fit into the "standard 1 rax FE" build perfectly). JD knows that he can't win every time in that case either, so he doesn't just play standard 12 hatch 11 pool all the time. Honestly I was kind of disgusted that JD didn't think 4pool was worth trying in either of the past 2 MSL finals, and he lost to 14CC a lot in both of those finals. If JD could win despite conceding the early game to Flash by not threatening aggression then he'd be even more of a monster than he already is, but he can't and he knows it. If they both agree to play straight-up by-the-book standard, I think the games would be pretty even. Thing is ... we've seen maybe one game that really falls into that category in the past four finals (from NATE MSL to last OSL, not counting WCG) (I'm thinking of game 3 in Bigfile MSL, which JD won). Both players know it'd be pretty even, and neither is content to leave it at that. The reason Flash is so dominating is he's two steps ahead of everyone else strategically. (Well, I assume that's the case anyway; I admit to only really watching ZvT and not all that many games of that any more. I watched all four of the relevant finals though). | ||
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bluetrolls
United States139 Posts
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Sabu113
United States11070 Posts
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Delerium
United States324 Posts
On September 12 2010 15:28 crate wrote: How about rax before supply twice in a Bo5? I don't like this argument. Flash is not so far ahead of JD if they both just agree to play standard every time, I think. Flash knows this, so he doesn't play standard every game (in the MSL and OSL he showed off a lot of different things, none of which fit into the "standard 1 rax FE" build perfectly). JD knows that he can't win every time in that case either, so he doesn't just play standard 12 hatch 11 pool all the time. Honestly I was kind of disgusted that JD didn't think 4pool was worth trying in either of the past 2 MSL finals, and he lost to 14CC a lot in both of those finals. If JD could win despite conceding the early game to Flash by not threatening aggression then he'd be even more of a monster than he already is, but he can't and he knows it. If they both agree to play straight-up by-the-book standard, I think the games would be pretty even. Thing is ... we've seen maybe one game that really falls into that category in the past four finals (from NATE MSL to last OSL, not counting WCG) (I'm thinking of game 3 in Bigfile MSL, which JD won). Both players know it'd be pretty even, and neither is content to leave it at that. The reason Flash is so dominating is he's two steps ahead of everyone else strategically. (Well, I assume that's the case anyway; I admit to only really watching ZvT and not all that many games of that any more. I watched all four of the relevant finals though). Exactly, which is what I've been emphasizing over the past day. Playing standard is not how you win a series, and it's not how you rise to the top professionally. A lot of people think that the better player plays standard because they think: "I'm *better* at this game, so the safest build is the one that will let me win. I don't have to change my strategy, because I'm *better*. My unit control is better, my production is better, my game sense is better. If I play safe, I'll win." This only works in low level play, where your enemy's usurpations of your play will be feeble. But imagine a progamer who only plays standard. Every game, without fail, he opens standard. They've never opened anything but standard in a televised game in their life. S-class players and even A-team snipers would eat this player alive. They'd craft a build specifically designed to destroy a standard build with standard scout patterns and timings, and they'd do it differently every time, and the standard progamer would lose, every time. You don't think Flash and Jaedong know this, jalstar? You don't think that on every map they're saying to themselves "How can I open so that Flash/Jaedong won't be ahead of me?" So if Jaedong 4-pooled twice and that makes him not the better player, and Flash raxed before supply twice (one of which was a 5-rax, lol?), does that mean neither of them is better than the other? Oh shit. What a concept. If broodwar dies we can still call Flash the last bonjwa, though. He spanked Jaedong in tourney finals this year, and good on him for doing it. I'm still bitter about the maps but w/e, it's just a game I watch for fun | ||
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shurgen
350 Posts
Regardless, Flash is bonjwa. I love Jaedong more than anything and nothing upset me more than seeing him lose both finals. The second jd typed gg in game 4 i powered off my laptop and thought, "Damn it. Flash is bonjwa." He has an aura of invincibility right now. When I watch jaedong games, I am afraid he might lose. With Flash, I am afraid he might never lose =(. I can't wait for next season to see what drama unfolds! | ||
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Itachii
Poland12466 Posts
what the hell | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On September 12 2010 03:17 jalstar wrote: The Maps: True, the maps are good for terran right now. But if you say that Flash can't be bonjwa because of the maps, you have to take away that title from oov and Nada as well. During oov and Nada's time, an OSL round of 16 frequently had 9 or 10 terrans and almost no protosses. In contrast, for 3 out of Flash's 4 titles this year, he was the only terran in the semi-finals. People think that a Bonjwa has to revitalize their race because of what Boxer and Savior did but they forget there are 2 other bonjwas. I'm OK with that. Actually we should take it away form Boxer too. Fuck Terran maps ~_~ | ||
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Emon_
3925 Posts
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Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On September 13 2010 04:59 Emon_ wrote: Lest we forget, Flash got 3-0 body slammed by Effort. Thats not very Bonjwa. 3-2 actually :3 | ||
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vnlegend
United States1389 Posts
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_romantic
United States455 Posts
On September 13 2010 10:00 vnlegend wrote: Flash is not bonjwa because I don't agree that he is. And BW has pretty much ended for me so Flash will never be bonjwa. gg flash fans. Are you a creationist IRL? The Civil War ended 145 years ago, you can surrender now. Oh and by the way, + Show Spoiler + the cake was a lie. I'm sorry. | ||
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Comeh
United States18919 Posts
While we are at it, it was far less of a body slam, as it was a "OMG HOW TO NOT DIE BY LINGS" choke by flash | ||
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Lebesgue
4542 Posts
On September 13 2010 04:59 Emon_ wrote: Lest we forget, Flash got 3-0 body slammed by Effort. Thats not very Bonjwa. Oh sorry. Boxer, Nada, Savior, Oov never lost right? Savior couldn't qualify for OSL for 2 seasons. So he can't be bonjwa Oov got demolished by July. So he can't be bonjwa Nada got demolished by Oov. So he can't be bojwa. Boxer lost finals to Reach, Oov and Anytime. So he can't be bonjwa. And Flash lost 3:2 FYI Flash is bonjwa. Korean community has already decided. Only Jaedong hardcore fans seems like they can't acknowledge it. | ||
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_romantic
United States455 Posts
On September 13 2010 10:25 Lebesgue wrote: Oh sorry. Boxer, Nada, Savior, Oov never lost right? Savior couldn't qualify for OSL for 2 seasons. So he can't be bonjwa Oov got demolished by July. So he can't be bonjwa Nada got demolished by Oov. So he can't be bojwa. Boxer lost finals to Reach, Oov and Anytime. So he can't be bonjwa. And Flash lost 3:2 FYI Flash is bonjwa. Korean community has already decided. Only Jaedong hardcore fans seems like they can't acknowledge it. So funny, some of them even would rather Flash be characterized as "God" than bonjwa... what is up with them... | ||
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hypercube
Hungary2735 Posts
On September 13 2010 04:59 Emon_ wrote: Lest we forget, Flash got 3-0 body slammed by Effort. Thats not very Bonjwa. Flash played 25 matches since the break after 2009 WCG Korea. He won 22 and lost 3. Of these his match against Effort was clearly his worst performance. I guess you're right, on his very worst days his game isn't quite bonjwa level. It's only good enough to give one of the top players a serious run for their money. | ||
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trevabob
United Kingdom350 Posts
On September 12 2010 06:15 darkmetal505 wrote: The original bonjwadom was for the dominance that Savior exerted and then extrapolated to the other 3. The word defines this type of relationship which is long gone because so many good players have come up. Here is a good analogy since everyone can understand phallic imagery: If BW has a 20 inch dick for perfection in gameplay, not statistics or how many titles one has won, just skill and aura, then Savior and Nada were raping with 10 inch cocks when everyone else had 5-6 inches. Sure sometimes you would get the 7-9 incher challenging them and beating them, but when fully erect, it was hard to beat Savior or Nada. Then Bisu came along and changed everything. He had been hiding his footlong and unleashed it on Savior. At the same time, all the players were slowly growing up into the big leagues. Bisu had a change to stretch his wiener into a 15 inch monster before everyone else could, but he blew it. This is where bonjwadongs ended. Now look at Flash. He's wielding a giant 19 incher and sometimes taps the limit of 20. Girls faint at the sight of his power and it is intimidating indeed. However, JD is not far behind him with 18 inches and others such as Stork, Bisu, and Effort have all grown into their 16-17 inchers. Flash has reached a position where bonjwa can't apply anymore because it's a thing of the past. Everyone now has rock solid crown jewels exceeding 12 inches (except Hyuk). Flash and many others have transcended bonjwadongs. Finally, in these last two finals, it's hard to see Flash and JD battling with full on erections because each has tried to cripple the other before they can get into full form. There isn't enough of a sample size to measure full lengths. Nevertheless, Flash's prowess is unmatched in the bedroom right now. So you can call Flash "Imbalance Terran", "God", or "Biggest Dick," but the power of the bonjwadong ended with the sub 12 inchers beating the half footers. surely "bonjwang" fits much better? | ||
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
 3-2 with cheese. Effort got smashed in the two first games ( it was standard macro games ). | ||
jalstar
United States8198 Posts
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Boblion
France8043 Posts
On September 14 2010 05:02 jalstar wrote: well to be fair it was flash and not effort cheesing in game 4. yup and getting unlucky. What about game 3 and 5 ? That was really octozergish imo. | ||
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