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On September 03 2010 09:05 Wolfpox wrote:
What I find funny is how the original poster (and so many others) you think that fans are entitled to something.
"I've been playing SC1 since the day it came out, and I haven't paid one cent for it! I pirated the game and have been a loyal cheapskate my whole life! Bow down and grovel at my feet, Blizzard! You will die without us!"
Fans love to talk about how loyal and devoted they are, but really, when they are operating WoW and getting millions of dollars a month, what do you think any sane person would value more: paying customers or cheap bastards who just make endless demands and are never satisfied?
Except they bought SC2?
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Wow. This is a perfect reiteration of my own opinion. Something I wanted to say myself if only I had higher visibility in either here or korean community.
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On September 03 2010 10:51 Domonic wrote:
Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion.
Hmmm, if it is my opinion that one can have a wrong opinion, is that opinion wrong?
Goddamnit, I don't know what I'm talking about. I shouldn't be hanging around TL at 4 AM.  I'm going to bed.
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On September 03 2010 11:04 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 10:51 Domonic wrote:
Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion. Hmmm, if it is my opinion that one can have a wrong opinion, is that opinion wrong?
no, because that is your opinion. lol 
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Sorry to break it to you, but unless you don't give a fuck about eSports in general, it won't develop in the US unless it happens in Korea first. Why? Culture issues. Ideas about gamers. Money. The devotion of the gamers.
They're devoted to a different game.
I think it would be easier for an international league to find sponsors than force Korea to switch to SC2.
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Amazing Amazing AMAZING thread
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On September 03 2010 09:05 Wolfpox wrote:
endless demands and are never satisfied?
Which resulted in good patches, only resulting new players screaming imba.
And yes I have paid for the game in the past. In fact, many of us did. The reason why some of us have pirated copies is because we have lost our CD during the 10 years in the middle (I used no CD-Key patch with Hanbitsoft's Korean SC Patch).
And don't even argue about the registration online with bnet registration; it never existed until recently.
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On September 03 2010 12:13 SkyLegenD wrote:
Two words - boycott SC2
and ? your suggestion lacks purpose and an alternative so sc2.
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On September 03 2010 12:13 SkyLegenD wrote:
Two words - boycott SC2
no - boycott paid GSL streams, watch free restream instead 
Great rant Milkis, i didn't know that the korean netizens were that much in favor of blizzard/gretech. I sided with them before, but after they basically said they want to kill off BW proleague i'm not in favor of anyone.
Fuck Gretech, fuck KeSPA, and fuck Blizzard. Their greed is going to kill the BW pro scene sooner than later...
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On September 03 2010 10:51 Domonic wrote:
Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion. That first part bugged me along with some grammatical errors and lack of knowledge made me only read about half of what you said. I just want to say that KeSPA does not run anything, it's only because there are groups like MBC Game and Ongamenet that are continuing to partner with KeSPA is why there still alive, and I also think it's ridiculous that KeSPA thinks they have rights to Starcraft, when in fact, Blizzard owns ALL rights to Starcraft because it's there game and they copyrighted it. Blizzard should have shut down KeSPA when they first started. I can't see them lasting much longer.
1. What knowledge does he lack? That statement is extremely vague. Please be more specific. Does he have the history wrong? Is he stating the companies names wrong? Has he not included a recent development like McDonalds has sponsored next season's MSL? What?
2. If KeSPA does not run anything, who runs Proleague? Who sets the schedules for that? And who decides what the rules are for these games?
3. KeSPA never stated they had the rights to Starcraft. They believe they have the rights to their broadcasts/games (which is arguable) and their players (which is undeniable, they contract out the players).
4. I disagree with Blizzard Copyrighted it so therefore they own all IP generated from it. It's like saying Microsoft owns everything created by Paint, or Nintendo owns all those youtube videos of Ken vs Azen in Melee. Besides, it hasn't been settled in court yet. They only own the rights to a certain extent. Where that extent is will be decided if they go to court.
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On September 03 2010 10:51 Domonic wrote:
Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion. That first part bugged me along with some grammatical errors and lack of knowledge made me only read about half of what you said. I just want to say that KeSPA does not run anything, it's only because there are groups like MBC Game and Ongamenet that are continuing to partner with KeSPA is why there still alive, and I also think it's ridiculous that KeSPA thinks they have rights to Starcraft, when in fact, Blizzard owns ALL rights to Starcraft because it's there game and they copyrighted it. Blizzard should have shut down KeSPA when they first started. I can't see them lasting much longer.
You criticize milkis for grammatical mistakes, yet you make the same mistakes.
Lack of knowledge is explained in the post above. No need to repeat what's been stated.
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Wow agree with you on this one. I would post the same thing if I were to give a rant lol.
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If Kespa goes down then it takes the BW scene with it...
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5/5 Very good but sad too. T.T
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Milkis it's always so difficult for me to get through your posts that deal with Blizzard/Gretech/Kespa. They always have such a tilted bias. Seems lately you've been coming around a bit on agreeing with people that Kespa is shitty, at least I can agree with that.
Some stuff I picked out from your post. As you said it's a rant but even so it seems all over the place, bringing up things that don't really relate to the whole Esports stuff.
On September 03 2010 07:18 Milkis wrote:
What gives them the balls to try and "kill" (depending on, of course, whose words you believe more) Proleague and the Starleague? They believe that they have the fans support.
It's not about balls, it's about legality. Kespa did a stupid thing selling rights to something they don't own. I think there wouldn't be such a big issue if the rights were never sold. It's obvious Blizzard knew about Pro Starcraft broadcasts and they let them run. When Blizzard learned about the broadcasting rights sale (if you believe what they say, which I'm sure you don't) then they started negotiations and trying to "kill" Proleague.
Why else would they charge for the GSL, a league that is just now starting, on a game that is supposedly "imbalanced" and still in development? Can they even guarantee the streams will be stable, and can they even guarantee that the games will be even worth watching?
Bringing up imbalance at this stage doesn't help your argument. The game is young, people are already watching it in droves, people are participating in tournaments for money. Can they gaurantee the games will be worth watching? Absolutely not. Nobody can. You can't buy a ticket to a hockey game and get upset at the stadium for charging you if the game sucks. Why else would they charge for the GSL? 2 very big reason, ESL and MLG. 2 existing organizations already charging for content so Gretech believes they can do the same. They provide a free stream as well, and I think that's the route Gretech should take.
Do you want e-Sports? I don't care if you're being underpaid and tired. That's how e-Sports began in Korea. Does Gretech really believe that they can get away with building e-Sports without sacrifices, sweat and toil of many, many people? That's why e-Sports grew -- they did it for the fans. The progamers who built the BW scene? They lived in cramped apartments, eating ramen and instant foods. You wanna bitch about progamer conditions now? If you start digging around the old BW threads, you can find threads about players finally being sponsored and getting to move into a "luxury apartment". Those are the conditions. You're underpaid and want compensation? Don't expect e-Sports to grow.
I see this sentiment posted a lot by people. But I never see any realistic solutions or reasoning to go along with it.
OK, progamers built the SC1 scene, that's awesome but there's nothing that says it absolutely has to be that way. What should Gretech do with their big ass tournament prize money instead? Not hold a big ass tournament for the up and coming pro SC2 players?
I've seen you argue about progamer conditions multiple times before and I always disagree with how you put it out there. Your reasoning always seems to be along the lines of; well it sucked way worse before, don't bitch about how it is now. That's a horrible way to look at things. Here's an analogy (analogies always suck but we have to make due). Women want equal pay to men? Damn, don't you remember when women were the property of men, those were some shitty times. Now they can vote, don't bitch about how much they get paid.
Their philosophy is also absolutely and utterly laughable. yes, let's make all progamers "prize hunters" again. Let's just move back to those days where progamers live in tiny apartments. The team that wins first and second place? Great for them, they can eat this month. The rest? Well, you're fucked, time to boil that ramen again. Let's bring all that uncertainty back.
Similar to the above. What exactly do you want them to do? Let SC2 rise on it's own would be your answer I assume. So in the meantime, that 170k per month that would be going out to some up an coming pro's instead goes where?
Maybe it would help if they actually made Battlenet 2.0 more flexible and helpful to finding games, and building connections so you can have practice partners, like the hundreds of aspiring amateurs. But nope. Let's fragment the user bases by forcing people to buy multiple copies. Let's not have chat channels (oh wait, they're patching it on like it's some new feature. nice job there lololol). Maybe make Battlenet 2.0... eSports friendly. Then again, I don't even know.
This whole Bnet 2.0 rant stuff seems completely out of place. I see you trying to relate it to eSports but it really is such a thin thread.
...maps...
Oh, and we'll sell them too $_$.
I understand using a $_$ smily is almost as cool as saying Micro$oft but it's not very clever. People feel so entitled to things. Sure some companies gave out stuff before for free. So what? Times change; costs to everything change over time. And if people are willing to pay for things so quality time can be put into those things then so be it.
For all the shit Blizzard has done in Korea, like making sure everything is perfectly lip synched to the dubbed Korean voices, eliminating every last trace of the roman alphabet, making the game free... Blizzard seems to have missed certain obvious things. It's like wearing a suit and dressing up but your hair is messed up. It's minor, but when people look at it, they don't look at your suit, they look at your hair. Why is there no package release in Korea? Everywhere other than Korea seems to have them. Why treat SC2 like a MMORPG? Are you trying to tell us something about Starcraft 2, Blizzard? For all that 300 million budget you spent on advertising, you seemed to have spent it in the wrong places. How utterly suffocating.
What are the obvious things that are missed? Why does Korea have a different release, more akin to an MMO? Probably because Korea has shown acceptance to such things.
edit: I really do agree with some things you post about Milkis, like Gretech only putting out a pay stream is a bad idea or that Bnet 2.0 could be better. But when I read your tone or see you arguing in IRC there's something about it that just irks me.
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<3 Milkis
I've briefly touched on similar points in old threads, glad you're bringing it up again.
As for netizens siding with Blizzard, I hope it's just the vocal minority. Those silly netizens
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5003 Posts
It's not about balls, it's about legality. Kespa did a stupid thing selling rights to something they don't own. I think there wouldn't be such a big issue if the rights were never sold. It's obvious Blizzard knew about Pro Starcraft broadcasts and they let them run. When Blizzard learned about the broadcasting rights sale (if you believe what they say, which I'm sure you don't) then they started negotiations and trying to "kill" Proleague.
Hi I'm blizzard i care more about my rights over a 10 year old game more so than i care about the entire fan base that got me this reputation as a great game maker
EDIT: I'm not really willing to discuss "solutions" because there's literally no point in me talking about potential things Blizzard/Gretech could do. A lot of your points are minor nitpicks that either miss the point or are rather... irrelevant lol. Like I said, it's only a rant, take it as you will, you can disagree and I dont really want to bothered discussing it, or else I'd have made this a more discussion oriented thread.
And yeah my tone isn't the best since I tend to be blunt.
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On September 03 2010 14:12 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +It's not about balls, it's about legality. Kespa did a stupid thing selling rights to something they don't own. I think there wouldn't be such a big issue if the rights were never sold. It's obvious Blizzard knew about Pro Starcraft broadcasts and they let them run. When Blizzard learned about the broadcasting rights sale (if you believe what they say, which I'm sure you don't) then they started negotiations and trying to "kill" Proleague. Hi I'm blizzard i care more about my rights over a 10 year old game more so than i care about the entire fan base that got me this reputation as a great game maker
You overvalue the Korean fanbase and Starcraft. Maybe I undervalue it a little bit, perhaps we can meet somewhere in the middle. Blizzard was doing pretty well before Starcraft, and I think I'm pretty safe in saying that even if they never ever created Starcraft they would still be a massive company producing good games. Also as you said, for whatever reasons the Korean netizens seem to be on Blizzard's side, they must be doing at least a few things right.
Also. Hi I'm Blizzard, I care about my rights because that's how a business operates, I'm part of a publicly owned company and so I must provide profit to my shareholders. Also if I do not protect my rights then that can later be used against me in court if I try to protect my rights in another instance.
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5003 Posts
On September 03 2010 14:17 GogoKodo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 14:12 Milkis wrote:It's not about balls, it's about legality. Kespa did a stupid thing selling rights to something they don't own. I think there wouldn't be such a big issue if the rights were never sold. It's obvious Blizzard knew about Pro Starcraft broadcasts and they let them run. When Blizzard learned about the broadcasting rights sale (if you believe what they say, which I'm sure you don't) then they started negotiations and trying to "kill" Proleague. Hi I'm blizzard i care more about my rights over a 10 year old game more so than i care about the entire fan base that got me this reputation as a great game maker You overvalue the Korean fanbase and Starcraft. Maybe I undervalue it a little bit, perhaps we can meet somewhere in the middle. Blizzard was doing pretty well before Starcraft, and I think I'm pretty safe in saying that even if they never ever created Starcraft they would still be a massive company producing good games. Also as you said, for whatever reasons the Korean netizens seem to be on Blizzard's side, they must be doing at least a few things right. Also. Hi I'm Blizzard, I care about my rights because that's how a business operates, I'm part of a publicly owned company and so I must provide profit to my shareholders. Also if I do not protect my rights then that can later be used against me in court if I try to protect my rights in another instance.
I've specifically implied why koreans side with blizzard lol. 100% of the reason why koreans view blizzard as a savior is cause kespa is rather mediocre.
like i said i really don't want to argue with people about this because it's about as effective as arguing with a brick wall because in the end we all have different priorities when we look at the situation. That's pretty much what differentiates between us, I don't give a fuck about the law, but only the reason "why" the law was created. everything else is impractical and inefficient.
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EPT
