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I hope you all realize companies will do what brings them the most money. Blizzard won't do a single thing for the fans if it means less profit. Likewise, if acting like the hero of e-sports earns the dough, that's what they'll do. Blizzard isn't you best friend.
It's sad, though, since any game can become an e-sport if it's good enough, it doesn't need to be planned that way (SC1, WC3 etc.) and I'm sure SC2 would have done just fine without the emphasis of e-sport and without all the conflict, but Blizzard's wallet calls the shots and that will always hold true.
Just play the game if you like it and follow the scene if it exists and is entertaining. Time will tell if SC2 has lasting power or not, above and beyond anything Blizzard has to say. Remember there are still two expansions to go and potential years of perfecting the game. Personally, I think there is way too much hype surrounding the game and the player-base will shrink dramatically fairly soon. But we'll see...
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Likewise, if acting like the hero of e-sports earns the dough, that's what they'll do.
Corporate altruism may be dead, but they need to put more effort into pretending to not be evil.
First they came for Kespa,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't Korean.
Then they came for ICCup,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't playing BW.
Then they came for TeamLiquid,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
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On September 03 2010 15:37 Dox wrote:
From a strictly Australian point of view, it would appear that some of the issues in this thread are pretty heavily overexaggerated. In the one month SC2 has been out, it has already generated more tournament money in Australia (and possibly SEA) than WarCraft 3 did in it's entire lifespan. And I dare say the same for Brood War.
In a single month since the release of SC2, we've seen sponsors sweeping up massive events like IEM and MGL. It's a brand new game and money is pouring out all over the place. Whilst I expected a hesitant and staggered introduction to the eSports scene for SC2, it really feels like the game has hit the ground running. I can certainly say my expectations were never this high, and so far the combined sponsors/communities and players have delivered something that feels naturally high-calibre.
Now of course, you'd have to be naive to expect no upsets along the way. I personally didn't even think we'd be at THIS point for at least another year. It's a new game with lots of new players and communities. There's issues right now, and there probably will be a long time from now. But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle.
Amen to that. I think even if SC2 flops in korea it will definatly have potentinal as an E-sport.
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why does everyone think that a tourney with huge prize money equates to esports? BW is an esport in korea because casuals watch it. they follow it because there are teams and players they like.
GSL offering $150k as prizes will make the game attractive to players, but what if the top players are always being replaced by upcomers in the next tournament. faces change all the time, do you really believe casuals will follow it the way they did with BW in korea without the teams?
SC2 becoming big != esports
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>capitalists are more concerned with making money than good games
>op is surprised
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On September 04 2010 16:35 Bswhunter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:37 Dox wrote:
From a strictly Australian point of view, it would appear that some of the issues in this thread are pretty heavily overexaggerated. In the one month SC2 has been out, it has already generated more tournament money in Australia (and possibly SEA) than WarCraft 3 did in it's entire lifespan. And I dare say the same for Brood War.
In a single month since the release of SC2, we've seen sponsors sweeping up massive events like IEM and MGL. It's a brand new game and money is pouring out all over the place. Whilst I expected a hesitant and staggered introduction to the eSports scene for SC2, it really feels like the game has hit the ground running. I can certainly say my expectations were never this high, and so far the combined sponsors/communities and players have delivered something that feels naturally high-calibre.
Now of course, you'd have to be naive to expect no upsets along the way. I personally didn't even think we'd be at THIS point for at least another year. It's a new game with lots of new players and communities. There's issues right now, and there probably will be a long time from now. But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle. Amen to that. I think even if SC2 flops in korea it will definatly have potentinal as an E-sport.
lol what? Thats like saying if the NFL dies off in America it will become huge globally. Sorry but it doesnt work that way and Blizzard understands that better than anyone else. I'm about 100% sure Blizzard doesnt give a fuck about how successful their game is in Australia when nobody in SK is playing it.
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I think Blizzard is too use to the MMO model. With an MMO, you roll it out early before it is complete and continue to patch it. MMOs have separate realms but it is not a big deal, because it isn't competitive. Blizzard did not give us a finished game and they think that is okay.
However, this type of thinking about yourself before the fans is becoming very commonplace. I study sport and I continue to see that with leagues like the NFL and the MLB making decisions that completely screw the fans. The leagues continue to price out the fans and have empty stadiums. However, as long as one or two franchises are doing well, everyone makes money.
I think this is typical corporate America bullshit. The corporations could care less about the peons of society. Just give them your money.
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Oh man, the amount of whining here is sad.
The game isn't complete, and that's okay...
There are still 2 expansions to come and I'm sure by that stage there will be enough versatility to create a game that while different to bw, will be as ageless as it.
Blizzard have never said this game will be perfect out of the gate, in fact they have Constantly said the exact opposite, that they are committed to making the game better, but it wont happen straight away... They have said this countless times, but I don't know if people don't want to listen, or if they are just stupid. People are still expecting the quality of a game that has been released and patched for 3-4 years.
Yes, it will take that long. And in that time, korea might be a non-issue in the land of e-sports, things like MLG, WCG, ESL might start to be seriously noted by the main-stream in the west. I'm not saying it Will happen, but it might. Hell, Blizzard might even cancel their deal with Gretech by then...
Anyway, @ the OP... You seem to be stuck in a BW world. Players can find sponsors like they do for all the other games that aren't BW. Gamers will be prize-hunters, for the forseeable future, in the west. That is the way it is with almost every other game...
You say yourself this shouldn't be the successor to brood war. And it's not, I genuinely believe they aren't trying to be either. And if you don't want it to be you need to get your head out of this "the way s.korea have done it with BW is the only way it can possibly done and be successful" mentality.
The bottom line simply is the BW scene you have all come to love has been illegal. Blizzard have a right to do something about it, regardless of how much you all feel entitled to what has been "provided" (stolen from blizzard.) And if companies don't want to pay due licenses, then Brood War will die. It has absolutely nothing to do with Starcraft 2.
Other than of course if they allow people to televise bw without paying a licensing fee, they will have much less of a legal leg to stand on trying to prevent people doing the same with sc2.
That's just the way I see it anyways.
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The team that wins first and second place? Great for them, they can eat this month. The rest? Well, you're fucked, time to boil that ramen again.
wow great post. Im so excited to see what happen with SC:BW and SC2
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On September 03 2010 08:04 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 07:43 Lysis wrote:
In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit. Are you serious? If SC2 doesnt get big in Korea, the game will die. Do you think any other country in the world gives a shit about e-sports? Personally, I will only accept SC2 as BW successor if the Koreans start dominating it and a pro scene is created over there. If that doesnt happen, I feel like SC2 is lacking something.
this is a very short sighted attitude. E-sports and SC2 do NOT need Korea to survive. In fact if it all goes to hell in Korea it might actually be good for the rest of the world. I'm not wishing for it to fail in Korea and I'd love to see Jaedong try and make Zerg work in SC2 as much as the next guy, but there is always a silver lining.
We're already seeing a bigger E-sport scene outside Korea than BW did. Is it going to be as good as Korean BW overnight? Ofcourse not! It'll take a few years before gamers are as skilled and are getting paid as good of a salary as Korean BW players are, but it will happen. BW didn't happpen overnight in Korea either.
Nobody can argue with the frantic pace at which these big sponsored tournaments are being set up. Feels like i have some big tourney to watch twice a week any more. E-sports is finally happening outside Korea and all i can say is "hell, it's about time."
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On September 06 2010 05:45 Antpile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 08:04 fabiano wrote:On September 03 2010 07:43 Lysis wrote:
In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit. Are you serious? If SC2 doesnt get big in Korea, the game will die. Do you think any other country in the world gives a shit about e-sports? Personally, I will only accept SC2 as BW successor if the Koreans start dominating it and a pro scene is created over there. If that doesnt happen, I feel like SC2 is lacking something. this is a very short sighted attitude. E-sports and SC2 do NOT need Korea to survive. In fact if it all goes to hell in Korea it might actually be good for the rest of the world. I'm not wishing for it to fail in Korea and I'd love to see Jaedong try and make Zerg work in SC2 as much as the next guy, but there is always a silver lining. We're already seeing a bigger E-sport scene outside Korea than BW did. Is it going to be as good as Korean BW overnight? Ofcourse not! It'll take a few years before gamers are as skilled and are getting paid as good of a salary as Korean BW players are, but it will happen. BW didn't happpen overnight in Korea either. Nobody can argue with the frantic pace at which these big sponsored tournaments are being set up. Feels like i have some big tourney to watch twice a week any more. E-sports is finally happening outside Korea and all i can say is "hell, it's about time."
I don't think you know what you are talking about. Here's a simple list format for you
1. SC2 starts becoming bigger
2. Broodwar/progaming die off in korea
3. Companies realize "oh hey, korean progaming was bigger than anything we ever had and it STILL died off the moment a new game came out."
4. All investors use korea as a model of how e-sports simple cannot be stable
5. e-sports dies out period.
Why does everyone think if the original fails, the successors will do well?
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i ate an sc2 lotteria meal the other day, had a good lol @ it.
what do they think gamers diets are like? xD
very good read though
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On September 03 2010 16:02 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:37 Dox wrote:But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle. What the fuck kind of twisted failure of logic allows you to think like this? SC2 only has this esports scene BECAUSE it is riding on the hype of sc1 and wc3.
You missed the very first sentence of the post that said "from a strictly Australian point of view." Thank you for the unnecessarily aggressive response though.
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totally agree with you. they only care about who gets to get the bigger piece of the profit.
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On September 03 2010 08:00 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 07:53 moopie wrote:On September 03 2010 07:42 Saracen wrote:
Great rant. I really, really try to find evidence that Blizzard cares about eSports. But it seems that every single decision they make is just one huge fuckup after another in that department.
Viewable match history? The ladder maps are a joke. The balance is a joke. How about implementing a decent map system? How about allowing users to contribute a decent map pool? Paying to watch a tournament? No one paid to watch Brood War. No one paid to watch the World Cup. What dumbass is going to pay to watch a SC2 tournament on imbalanced maps with imbalanced races? B.net is still a joke. Every day, Blizzard seems more and more like a bunch of foreign corporate suits flocking in to seize control of a dying industry, but totally disregarding its history, integrity, and pride. Like, one day, maybe in '07, some Blizzard guys were like "omg look, SC is doing so well in Korea, we gotta get on that shit." And then they brute-force their way into the industry while madly waving the bullshit "eSports" flag to the public. That's pretty much it, yeah. Bnet 0.2 No LAN Segregated realms No chatrooms for release Attempting to squeeze out the BW scene to make room for SC2 Pay-only streams for GSL It really is just trying to destroy the competition so you can push an inferior product out to the masses with the biggest profit margin possible. The sad thing is if they tried it the traditional way, didn't try to control and squeeze KeSPA out with those ridiculous demands and instead cooperated with the already existing esport scene in Korea, balanced or not, the bigger teams (SKT, KT, STX) would surely have added SC2 teams and OGN/MBCGame would give airtime to a SC2 proleague. For all their talk of esports and wanting this to go global (while being in the driver seat like they are trying to be), Blizzard hasn't once (in over 10 years) tried to set up anything in the US or Europe. Too much effort, time and risk. They just saw what Korea had and wanted a piece of it. Even if they get their way and kill off BW though, the Korean fans will hate them and I can't see the current sponsors showing too much appreciation either. By shitting on KeSPA they are shitting on some of Korea's biggest corporations (who hopefully won't scab later). I really hope this comes back to bite them in the ass -_- [/rant] The thing which annoys me more than anything else is that SC2 is such an amazing game that if they had just gone for a hands off approach then SC2 would have thrived and developed EXACTLY like they are trying to force it to right now.
Exactly. The developers (and the community as well) poured their heart and soul into making SC2 the best game it could be. And if it was allowed to naturally develop as Esports had been I truely believe it would have been much better for all parties.
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On September 03 2010 08:05 tree.hugger wrote:
In our earnestness to embrace Sc2, and Blizzard's earnestness to sell it, we've lost sight as a community of what got us here in the first place. Sc2 should never have been viewed as a successor to BW, rather as an independent, related game that can and deserves to co-exist peacefully with it's older brother.
Now, I'd love it personally if there were less similarities between the games to drive home that point, but it doesn't really matter too much, I think the games are different enough to make watching both interesting; somewhat like Mens and Womens tennis, or college and pro football in the US.
I think what Blizzard doesn't understand, and what the community is just waking up to understanding, is that if BW is killed or forced to die a premature death, then Sc2 simply won't survive, at the very least because of the ill-will and fragmentation of the community caused by the break-up. BW is still growing, and Sc2 is exploding as one might expect, and the games can only grow in tandem with each other. BW had to fight extremely hard to gain attention and respect, and if it's shuttled out after ten years, then the consequences for the community and for the industry are obvious. No kid will want to become a pro in a game with only a four, three, two year lifespan. No business person will want to help grow that business. And this can only happen in Korea, and possibly China, but who knows? If esports loses it's foothold in korea, then it's the end not only for BW, but for Sc2, and maybe a disastrous blow to the WCG as well. The GSL is great and everything, but GOM is forgetting a crucial lesson of Tv programming; if you want a new show to take off, put it after a similar popular show. Similarly, GSL coming on after proleague would be an awesome way to integrate a BW audience to Sc2. These people aren't programmed to turn on their tv's at exactly 13:00 KST on Fridays. If proleague isn't on, they won't tune in. BW and Sc2 must compliment each other. Instead, because of a cohort of idiots, they're poised to kill each other.
A house divided against itself cannot stand. These games must grow and work in tandem. These games are brothers, not father and son. The new posters on these forums should know this. It's time Sc2 began caring about what happened with BW, and the BW fans began to care about Sc2, not necessarily as games, but as industries.
Original Post and you are both on to something. Indeed you ARE onto something. Cheers for opening my eyes alittle to the E-Sports scene. Looks like it's being run by corporate greedy fuckballs when it SHOULD be run by the fans. Hm... I have a feeling this is not going to end well. For the fans or the games
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After watching the GSL on a restream tonight I just can't see SC2 tournaments like we are used to with BW surviving past the end of the year.
Compared to the OSL and even the MSL the production values were just awful, it all just seemed really amatuerish. Constant audio problems. I was treated to ~2 mins of silence followed by ads blasting over Tasteless/Artosis trying to talk about the upcoming match. Follow that up with some good old "technical issues" (aka battle.net 2.0) causing delays in the matches was just an amazingly bad experience.
Tasteless and Artosis were doing a good job but I stopped watching after a few games because I was just plain bored. The love is just not there. The game still has glaring issues in terms of spectator enjoyment (PvP is the worst culprit, followed by mass flying units obscuring everything).
I even thought that maybe it would be better in Korean. I tried some GSL VODs but they still haven't got rid of that annoying screaching female commentator and there were still annoying production issues. The problem is that there are so many people involved that just don't care. It's the money that matters now. No one cares that some random images flashed up on screen have the wrong aspect ratio or that there is a massive "WIN" graphic over the screen before the game has even ended.
The funny thing is I was going to buy the HQ stream because I actually think the price is reasonable. I am really glad I didn't. Thank god the GOMTV signup form refused to accept my email address.
Does Blizzard/Gretech really expect people (think non gamers and the public in general) to take SC2 seriously when I can find more smoothly run broadcasts on local community TV?
The worst part about it all is there is no sign of improvement on the issues that will cause SC2 to fail as an E-SPORT. The biggest problems in my opinion are:
- How unfriendly the game is to a spectator in terms of audio and visuals.
- How boring most of the units are currently.
- How awful battle.net 2.0 is and how split up the community is because of region lock.
- Destroying the existing infrastructure that has been built up around BW because it apparently threatens SC2's marketshare.
People stuck in the world of balance changes and "I don't care about Korea because SC2 is going to be a GLOBAL E-SPORT" are just delusional. I would love to see an Australian Starleague but who is going to watch it? If you can't get the viewers you don't get the sponsors. If you don't get the sponsors you don't get the money to organize it. Korea is the only country in the world that has developed a sustainable infrastructure around E-SPORTS. Balance is a minor issue compared to everything else.
Like others have said. If Blizzard kills Brood War that means that the infrastructure is in fact not sustainable which will ensure that SC2 flops. What company in their right mind will throw their money behind something with so much uncertainty?
I really want SC2 to be a success. As bad as the overall GSL experience was tonight I could see some promise. I could see that there are people that do care. Tasteless and Artosis cared (though Artosis needs to lose the BW killing attitude). The players cared. You could see it on their faces. They weren't there for the promise of making heaps of money. While people still care there is hope.
Blizzard, Gretech and Kespa really need to show us they also care or they will all have played a part in destroying what I think is the best competetive gaming scene in the world.
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5003 Posts
To everyone who keeps saying "you're concentrating too much on Korea" or "from a X country perspective", note that even Blizzard acknowledges Korea is the "E-Sports capital of the world" and recognize how important it is.
Everything can only come after a stable scene in Korea.
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EPT
