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5003 Posts
Disclaimer: This is a rant. It may have wrong information, or potentially, even wrong opinions. It may be jumping to conclusions on incomplete or even wrong information. This is just a rant. It maybe confusing in sections. I don't speak for TL, just for myself.
In Korea, the amount of support gets Gretech gets is rather insane. No, let's put it this way -- the amount of netizen support Blizzard, and thus, Gretech gets, is insane. There is simply one reason why this is the case, and that's because of KeSPA and all the wrongs they have committed.
KeSPA is the organization that "runs the show". They have an executive office and the board of directors, which is made of company representatives that sponsor eSports in Korea. They're no where close to a decent organization in terms of the amount of hiccups they have caused, whether it be from the rules they set up or even their scheduling, drafting, and how much "control" they have over the players. They screwed up a lot in the past, and to be honest they have the attitude that eSports in Korea cannot succeed without them, which is pretty much the reason why I'm guessing they probably treated Blizzard like dirt in negotiations. Every time they fuck up, the fans rage, and the it builds up over time. Over the 10 years, there were quite a number of incidents, and they're sort of going through it not proactively, but fixing problems as they run into them.
And all that rage is why there's a lot of netizen support for Blizzard/Gretech. Why? It's the "Anti KeSPA".
I think to an extent Gretech/Blizzard let this false sense of support get to their heads. They believe they're getting supported because they're doing something right with eSports, not because KeSPA had made a ton of mistakes in the past. What gives them the balls to try and "kill" (depending on, of course, whose words you believe more) Proleague and the Starleague? They believe that they have the fans support. Why else would they charge for the GSL, a league that is just now starting, on a game that is supposedly "imbalanced" and still in development? Can they even guarantee the streams will be stable, and can they even guarantee that the games will be even worth watching? In a time period where MMORPGs get bitched at for being pay to play, can they really afford to this?
Do you want e-Sports? I don't care if you're being underpaid and tired. That's how e-Sports began in Korea. Does Gretech really believe that they can get away with building e-Sports without sacrifices, sweat and toil of many, many people? That's why e-Sports grew -- they did it for the fans. The progamers who built the BW scene? They lived in cramped apartments, eating ramen and instant foods. You wanna bitch about progamer conditions now? If you start digging around the old BW threads, you can find threads about players finally being sponsored and getting to move into a "luxury apartment". Those are the conditions. You're underpaid and want compensation? Don't expect e-Sports to grow.
Their philosophy is also absolutely and utterly laughable. yes, let's make all progamers "prize hunters" again. Let's just move back to those days where progamers live in tiny apartments. The team that wins first and second place? Great for them, they can eat this month. The rest? Well, you're fucked, time to boil that ramen again. Let's bring all that uncertainty back.
Maybe it would help if they actually made Battlenet 2.0 more flexible and helpful to finding games, and building connections so you can have practice partners, like the hundreds of aspiring amateurs. But nope. Let's fragment the user bases by forcing people to buy multiple copies. Let's not have chat channels (oh wait, they're patching it on like it's some new feature. nice job there lololol). Maybe make Battlenet 2.0... eSports friendly. Then again, I don't even know.
Where are the fans in the decision making, for all parties? At least KeSPA is forced to care, at least a little (although sometimes it makes us laugh, especially now). Where were the fans when you were deciding the features? It honestly looks like Battle.net 2.0 was created to be easiest to manage for Blizzard, rather than built for the fans. LAN? Sorry, KeSPA will hold illegal esports tournaments so we can't have that. Oh right, and piracy. Chat Channels? Sorry, we don't want to moderate it. No Chat Channels. Cross Realm Play? Pain in the ass to make servers respond like that. Map Distribution? Sorry, we're gonna make this a pain in thea ss so we can be sure what kind of maps are being on. Oh, and we'll sell them too $_$. Where are the fans in this? Were they even in the decision process, or were they assumed in all of this?
And what the fuck kind of advertisements do you think you're running? Oh, let's break Korean laws, even though we said we won't do it again, and put advertisements where they're not supposed to go. Oh, let's just put up SC2 posters on random PC Bangs without the owners content. Let's also put it on top of other games advertising. Oh, let's make a lotteria set menu. I BET THIS WILL REALLY MAKE PEOPLE WANNA PLAY STARCRAFT.
For all the shit Blizzard has done in Korea, like making sure everything is perfectly lip synched to the dubbed Korean voices, eliminating every last trace of the roman alphabet, making the game free... Blizzard seems to have missed certain obvious things. It's like wearing a suit and dressing up but your hair is messed up. It's minor, but when people look at it, they don't look at your suit, they look at your hair. Why is there no package release in Korea? Everywhere other than Korea seems to have them. Why treat SC2 like a MMORPG? Are you trying to tell us something about Starcraft 2, Blizzard? For all that 300 million budget you spent on advertising, you seemed to have spent it in the wrong places. How utterly suffocating.
And Gretech. lol. Okay. We KNOW KeSPA has been a bunch of douchebags. But when obviously, through what's been revealed in the negotiations... you seem to have revealed to us you were on KeSPA's level all along. Fuck the fans. Who cares about them? All Gretech seems to care is getting their sweet little revenge, rejecting Proleague and MSL. Oh, yes, point to the good little OGN who did sign the contract... do you really think OGN would want their 10th anniversary, Finals held in Shanghai to be canned by legal bullshit? Of course they'll pay up... this time. Are you sure they'll be paying up again?
Who the hell would want to sponsor this kind of scene? Who would want to sponsor the next Proleague, when there's a chance of it getting shut down? Or MSL or OGN, where the fees would undoubtedly fall to the Sponsors? Let's make sponsoring even harder, after all the bullshit that was caused by the negotiations.
Fuck. Why doesnt BLizzard just sell Starcraft to KeSPA or something and let it be done? I'm sure some Korean company will cough up some pretty penny for having Blizzard/Gretech off of their fucking backs.
All of this is just bullshit. This is supposed to be for the fans. I don't see anything here, ANYWHERE, that is for the fans. Thanks KeSPA, Blizzard, Gretech, for reminding us how much you care about the fans, so much that all three parties are showing as they are willing to give us ZERO sacrifices to please their fans, but caring more about making their lives easier.
Welcome to e-Sports 2.0
 
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Don't you mean e-Sports 0.2?
If PL/MSL/OSL wen't away I would get depressed ;;.
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It's certainly going to be a tense month.
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No clue myself where all this is heading, I'm trying to hope for the best, but it's like we're in the dark ages of e-sports. Blizzard is trying too hard to make e-sports work with starcraft 2, forcing it instead of letting it develop.
Breaking down everything just to make people like your product is insane, and I really do hope they know what they are doing.
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If Blizzard went less greedy and KeSPA less stupid, and them both joined forces, by know we would have been commenting about the awesome match between TLO and Boxer on Blistering Sands for the Pocari Sweat Proleague 2010-2011 and wondering why Bisu is slumping.
Too bad what we comment today is how BW is gonna be killed by SC2, and the last one failing in Korea.
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
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thedeadhaji
39489 Posts
The simple answer to "why" all this has to happen, is because of the monies ofc.
A lot of KeSPA's "control" ensures that the companies can profit from the proscene.
I doubt GRETech has any sort of long term business sense or vision, so they're more focused on getting black in short term.
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Yeah, after the initial amazement from the announcement of the GSL's prize pool stunned everyone, every other action surrounding the tournament has not been "for the fans". The entire spectrum of Gretech's actions, from their apparent attempts to reduce the current BW scene as competition to the idea that they can somehow extract such ridiculous fees from their foreign viewers (but still free for Koreans!)...you'd be hard pressed to argue that Gretech's doing things for the fans.
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Great rant. I really, really try to find evidence that Blizzard cares about eSports. But it seems that every single decision they make is just one huge fuckup after another in that department.
Viewable match history? The ladder maps are a joke. The balance is a joke. How about implementing a decent map system? How about allowing users to contribute a decent map pool? Paying to watch a tournament? No one paid to watch Brood War. No one paid to watch the World Cup. What dumbass is going to pay to watch a SC2 tournament on imbalanced maps with imbalanced races? B.net is still a joke. Every day, Blizzard seems more and more like a bunch of foreign corporate suits flocking in to seize control of a dying industry, but totally disregarding its history, integrity, and pride. Like, one day, maybe in '07, some Blizzard guys were like "omg look, SC is doing so well in Korea, we gotta get on that shit." And then they brute-force their way into the industry while madly waving the bullshit "eSports" flag to the public.
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Although I find your rant to make a lot of sense, I don't see a mention of the rest of the world in this. In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit. GSL? more like a Korean SC2 League since the friggen qualifiers were held in Seoul and if you couldn't hop on a plane to Korea tough luck. Instead of focusing on Korea like it's Mecca or something let's make e-Sports truly global so people like me (high schooler from the US) involved in this like any other kid can be involved in sports. Call Blizzard greedy, stupid, uninformed or whatever the hell you want to, but they're the ones who can actually make this happen.
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On September 03 2010 07:43 Lysis wrote:
Although I find your rant to make a lot of sense, I don't see a mention of the rest of the world in this. In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit. GSL? more like a Korean SC2 League since the friggen qualifiers were held in Seoul and if you couldn't hop on a plane to Korea tough luck. Instead of focusing on Korea like it's Mecca or something let's make e-Sports truly global so people like me (high schooler from the US) involved in this like any other kid can be involved in sports. Call Blizzard greedy, stupid, uninformed or whatever the hell you want to, but they're the ones who can actually make this happen.
Do you really think an american sc2 player will have thousands of screaming fangirls for him? And even more male fans? The american culture just isn't made for esports. Thats why Blizz turns to korea and tries to shove it down their throats.
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On September 03 2010 07:42 Saracen wrote:
Great rant. I really, really try to find evidence that Blizzard cares about eSports. But it seems that every single decision they make is just one huge fuckup after another in that department.
Viewable match history? The ladder maps are a joke. The balance is a joke. How about implementing a decent map system? How about allowing users to contribute a decent map pool? Paying to watch a tournament? No one paid to watch Brood War. No one paid to watch the World Cup. What dumbass is going to pay to watch a SC2 tournament on imbalanced maps with imbalanced races? B.net is still a joke. Every day, Blizzard seems more and more like a bunch of foreign corporate suits flocking in to seize control of a dying industry, but totally disregarding its history, integrity, and pride. Like, one day, maybe in '07, some Blizzard guys were like "omg look, SC is doing so well in Korea, we gotta get on that shit." And then they brute-force their way into the industry while madly waving the bullshit "eSports" flag to the public.
That's pretty much it, yeah.
Bnet 0.2
No LAN
Segregated realms
No chatrooms for release
Attempting to squeeze out the BW scene to make room for SC2
Pay-only streams for GSL
It really is just trying to destroy the competition so you can push an inferior product out to the masses with the biggest profit margin possible. The sad thing is if they tried it the traditional way, didn't try to control and squeeze KeSPA out with those ridiculous demands and instead cooperated with the already existing esport scene in Korea, balanced or not, the bigger teams (SKT, KT, STX) would surely have added SC2 teams and OGN/MBCGame would give airtime to a SC2 proleague.
For all their talk of esports and wanting this to go global (while being in the driver seat like they are trying to be), Blizzard hasn't once (in over 10 years) tried to set up anything in the US or Europe. Too much effort, time and risk. They just saw what Korea had and wanted a piece of it.
Even if they get their way and kill off BW though, the Korean fans will hate them and I can't see the current sponsors showing too much appreciation either. By shitting on KeSPA they are shitting on some of Korea's biggest corporations (who hopefully won't scab later). I really hope this comes back to bite them in the ass -_-
[/rant]
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Loved reading that, and I really agree with everything.
It feels like Blizzard build this great core game in Starcraft II, but EVERYTHING around it be-it everything wrong with B.net or the way this whole GSL/Kespa etc stuff has exploded and has seemed to all go to hell.
I mean sure they've said "oh we'll add chat channels" and all this such, but where are they? They should have had them in the first place and as of yet nothing has changed and the fans of this game have got the big "F U!"
Another thing that drives me nuts is the fact that while Blizzard is so concerned about esports and Starcraft II in KOREA, all us foreigners who are having hundreds of tournaments and all get shit all from Blizzard. Why aren't they hosting their own $100/week tournament, why haven't they started doing this whole "Proleague" ladder. Yeah the game is only a month old but why should we have to wait? We already waited god damn 12 years for this game so why do we have to wait longer?
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On September 03 2010 07:43 Lysis wrote:
In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit.
Good then don't care about this topic anymore. Because what happens in Korea will surely not affect the rest of us around the world. /sarcasm
You have no idea how much Blizzard tried to make SC2 successful in Korea, and how much they expected out of them. It has gotten to a point where Blizzard replaced the head representative in Korea (rumors state that it is partially due to SC2 launch's failure in Korea).
Instead of focusing on Korea like it's Mecca or something let's make e-Sports truly global so people like me (high schooler from the US) involved in this like any other kid can be involved in sports.
Great idea! That means we will see more quality matches, just like the ones from MLG! (ugh...)
You don't care about Korea. Great. Rest of the world does not care about you, personally, or many Americans when it comes down to e-Sports scene. There's a reason why Blizzard spent huge amounts of money, making illegal advertisements, and sneaking in SC2 posters in PC Bang.
South Korea's e-Sports scene is largest compared to anywhere else around the world, or at least largest compared to most countries. There's a reason why Blizzard wanted to succeed in Korea, and there's a reason why we want Korea scene to be fixed. Without Korea, we wouldn't have had SCBW and SC2 scene today. Without Korea, we wouldn't have balanced game like SCBW. And you're ranting because you think focusing on Korea is the wrong idea here...
Korea started the SC e-Sports scene. If it dies over there, the it will most likely die in many other places. Ignore the issue if you want, just because it's taking place in Korea. Because in the end, what happens in Korea won't stay there. Blizzard doesn't care about you and your fellow High School kids in US (including myself). They want more money out of places where SC scene is huge... such as South Korea.
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Good read, I completely agree with your point of view!
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On September 03 2010 07:43 Lysis wrote:
Although I find your rant to make a lot of sense, I don't see a mention of the rest of the world in this. In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit. GSL? more like a Korean SC2 League since the friggen qualifiers were held in Seoul and if you couldn't hop on a plane to Korea tough luck. Instead of focusing on Korea like it's Mecca or something let's make e-Sports truly global so people like me (high schooler from the US) involved in this like any other kid can be involved in sports. Call Blizzard greedy, stupid, uninformed or whatever the hell you want to, but they're the ones who can actually make this happen.
This blog is about Korean Starleagues. If you've found this page by accident, you can try using your browser's "Back" button.
I'm always happy so see what our translators think. Good rant, although very depressing subject matter. "At least the leagues will run until this is settled in court" is the best news anywhere in sight, at least that I've been able to find. Dark times.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 03 2010 07:53 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 07:42 Saracen wrote:
Great rant. I really, really try to find evidence that Blizzard cares about eSports. But it seems that every single decision they make is just one huge fuckup after another in that department.
Viewable match history? The ladder maps are a joke. The balance is a joke. How about implementing a decent map system? How about allowing users to contribute a decent map pool? Paying to watch a tournament? No one paid to watch Brood War. No one paid to watch the World Cup. What dumbass is going to pay to watch a SC2 tournament on imbalanced maps with imbalanced races? B.net is still a joke. Every day, Blizzard seems more and more like a bunch of foreign corporate suits flocking in to seize control of a dying industry, but totally disregarding its history, integrity, and pride. Like, one day, maybe in '07, some Blizzard guys were like "omg look, SC is doing so well in Korea, we gotta get on that shit." And then they brute-force their way into the industry while madly waving the bullshit "eSports" flag to the public. That's pretty much it, yeah. Bnet 0.2 No LAN Segregated realms No chatrooms for release Attempting to squeeze out the BW scene to make room for SC2 Pay-only streams for GSL It really is just trying to destroy the competition so you can push an inferior product out to the masses with the biggest profit margin possible. The sad thing is if they tried it the traditional way, didn't try to control and squeeze KeSPA out with those ridiculous demands and instead cooperated with the already existing esport scene in Korea, balanced or not, the bigger teams (SKT, KT, STX) would surely have added SC2 teams and OGN/MBCGame would give airtime to a SC2 proleague. For all their talk of esports and wanting this to go global (while being in the driver seat like they are trying to be), Blizzard hasn't once (in over 10 years) tried to set up anything in the US or Europe. Too much effort, time and risk. They just saw what Korea had and wanted a piece of it. Even if they get their way and kill off BW though, the Korean fans will hate them and I can't see the current sponsors showing too much appreciation either. By shitting on KeSPA they are shitting on some of Korea's biggest corporations (who hopefully won't scab later). I really hope this comes back to bite them in the ass -_- [/rant] The thing which annoys me more than anything else is that SC2 is such an amazing game that if they had just gone for a hands off approach then SC2 would have thrived and developed EXACTLY like they are trying to force it to right now.
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On September 03 2010 07:43 Lysis wrote:
In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit.
Are you serious?
If SC2 doesnt get big in Korea, the game will die. Do you think any other country in the world gives a shit about e-sports?
Personally, I will only accept SC2 as BW successor if the Koreans start dominating it and a pro scene is created over there. If that doesnt happen, I feel like SC2 is lacking something.
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Philadelphia, PA10406 Posts
In our earnestness to embrace Sc2, and Blizzard's earnestness to sell it, we've lost sight as a community of what got us here in the first place. Sc2 should never have been viewed as a successor to BW, rather as an independent, related game that can and deserves to co-exist peacefully with it's older brother.
Now, I'd love it personally if there were less similarities between the games to drive home that point, but it doesn't really matter too much, I think the games are different enough to make watching both interesting; somewhat like Mens and Womens tennis, or college and pro football in the US.
I think what Blizzard doesn't understand, and what the community is just waking up to understanding, is that if BW is killed or forced to die a premature death, then Sc2 simply won't survive, at the very least because of the ill-will and fragmentation of the community caused by the break-up. BW is still growing, and Sc2 is exploding as one might expect, and the games can only grow in tandem with each other. BW had to fight extremely hard to gain attention and respect, and if it's shuttled out after ten years, then the consequences for the community and for the industry are obvious. No kid will want to become a pro in a game with only a four, three, two year lifespan. No business person will want to help grow that business. And this can only happen in Korea, and possibly China, but who knows? If esports loses it's foothold in korea, then it's the end not only for BW, but for Sc2, and maybe a disastrous blow to the WCG as well. The GSL is great and everything, but GOM is forgetting a crucial lesson of Tv programming; if you want a new show to take off, put it after a similar popular show. Similarly, GSL coming on after proleague would be an awesome way to integrate a BW audience to Sc2. These people aren't programmed to turn on their tv's at exactly 13:00 KST on Fridays. If proleague isn't on, they won't tune in. BW and Sc2 must compliment each other. Instead, because of a cohort of idiots, they're poised to kill each other.
A house divided against itself cannot stand. These games must grow and work in tandem. These games are brothers, not father and son. The new posters on these forums should know this. It's time Sc2 began caring about what happened with BW, and the BW fans began to care about Sc2, not necessarily as games, but as industries.
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They will fix it all by putting a lot of money into price pools.
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The way they're trying so hard to kill off BW is retarded. They're pissing all over us fans.  I was looking forward to SC2 so much, thinking it would be something that would happily co-exist with BW, but noooooooooo. They had to be greedy fucking assholes. I'm totally boycotting Blizzard/Gretech.
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leomon
Canada169 Posts
On September 03 2010 08:04 fabiano wrote:
Are you serious?
If SC2 doesnt get big in Korea, the game will die. Do you think any other country in the world gives a shit about e-sports?
Personally, I will only accept SC2 as BW successor if the Koreans start dominating it and a pro scene is created over there. If that doesnt happen, I feel like SC2 is lacking something.
This.
Blizzard is trying too hard with Korea, but not neccessarily doing the correct things. Despite kespa's past history of treating players and what not, they always have the fans in mind. Blizzard on the other hand, seems like they don't care for the fans one bit at all.
If SC2 wants to succeed as an esport, blizzard better step it up, especially in korea, where things are in shambles.
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On September 03 2010 08:00 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 07:53 moopie wrote:On September 03 2010 07:42 Saracen wrote:
Great rant. I really, really try to find evidence that Blizzard cares about eSports. But it seems that every single decision they make is just one huge fuckup after another in that department.
Viewable match history? The ladder maps are a joke. The balance is a joke. How about implementing a decent map system? How about allowing users to contribute a decent map pool? Paying to watch a tournament? No one paid to watch Brood War. No one paid to watch the World Cup. What dumbass is going to pay to watch a SC2 tournament on imbalanced maps with imbalanced races? B.net is still a joke. Every day, Blizzard seems more and more like a bunch of foreign corporate suits flocking in to seize control of a dying industry, but totally disregarding its history, integrity, and pride. Like, one day, maybe in '07, some Blizzard guys were like "omg look, SC is doing so well in Korea, we gotta get on that shit." And then they brute-force their way into the industry while madly waving the bullshit "eSports" flag to the public. That's pretty much it, yeah. Bnet 0.2 No LAN Segregated realms No chatrooms for release Attempting to squeeze out the BW scene to make room for SC2 Pay-only streams for GSL It really is just trying to destroy the competition so you can push an inferior product out to the masses with the biggest profit margin possible. The sad thing is if they tried it the traditional way, didn't try to control and squeeze KeSPA out with those ridiculous demands and instead cooperated with the already existing esport scene in Korea, balanced or not, the bigger teams (SKT, KT, STX) would surely have added SC2 teams and OGN/MBCGame would give airtime to a SC2 proleague. For all their talk of esports and wanting this to go global (while being in the driver seat like they are trying to be), Blizzard hasn't once (in over 10 years) tried to set up anything in the US or Europe. Too much effort, time and risk. They just saw what Korea had and wanted a piece of it. Even if they get their way and kill off BW though, the Korean fans will hate them and I can't see the current sponsors showing too much appreciation either. By shitting on KeSPA they are shitting on some of Korea's biggest corporations (who hopefully won't scab later). I really hope this comes back to bite them in the ass -_- [/rant] The thing which annoys me more than anything else is that SC2 is such an amazing game that if they had just gone for a hands off approach then SC2 would have thrived and developed EXACTLY like they are trying to force it to right now.
Yeah the game itself is the shit but everything around it sucks balls.
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On September 03 2010 08:07 imbecile wrote:
They will fix it all by putting a lot of money into price pools.
Prize pool won't get them fans.
Prize pool won't get them actual progaming teams anywhere near the same level, since individual leagues only cater to the top few % of people, and the rest get eliminated in prelims/ro32. At best you'll get a few guys in a clan with a sponsor and try their luck month after month.
Prize pool won't get them sponsor recognition after they go around pissing on some of the biggest potential sponsors in Korea and destroying the natural order of things.
Hell, prize pool won't even bring the loved BW icons to SC2 (which is how you would want to phase SC2 in to begin with).
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Watching SC2 and SC1 are two totally different things in my eyes. (I currently prefer watching SC1) The idea that any Starcraft 2 league is going to instantly make me stop caring about Flash vs Jaedong is insane. Trying to kill SC1 is only pissing me off and at this rate Gretech will not get a dime from me...
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On September 03 2010 07:58 Sinensis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 07:43 Lysis wrote:
Although I find your rant to make a lot of sense, I don't see a mention of the rest of the world in this. In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit. GSL? more like a Korean SC2 League since the friggen qualifiers were held in Seoul and if you couldn't hop on a plane to Korea tough luck. Instead of focusing on Korea like it's Mecca or something let's make e-Sports truly global so people like me (high schooler from the US) involved in this like any other kid can be involved in sports. Call Blizzard greedy, stupid, uninformed or whatever the hell you want to, but they're the ones who can actually make this happen. This blog is about Korean Starleagues. If you've found this page by accident, you can try using your browser's "Back" button. I'm always happy so see what our translators think. Good rant, although very depressing subject matter. "At least the leagues will run until this is settled in court" is the best news anywhere in sight, at least that I've been able to find. Dark times.
IMO people at TL who knows about the Korean sources and spends time reading them find themselves not only educated about the Korean scene, but also the users' comments.
Example:
Fuck SC1 and KeSPA, it's time for Gretech to shine
LOL AT KeSPA GETTING OWNED BY GRETECH AND BLIZZARD
I honestly want SC1 to live, but not KeSPA
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Awesome rant, i completely agree. I never liked Kespa in the past, and I was very sympathetic to Gretech during the GomTV conflicts with Kespa, but the recent actions of Blizzard/Gretech have made me nostalgic for the time when Kespa had full control (lol never thought I'd say that!). At least Kespa actually has a clue about how to make e-sports work.
I think this situation also shows how power corrupts. Back when Gretech was the underdog and the little guy, they put out a great product and tried to work together with Kespa (only to get shot down). Now that Gretech is in control, they're showing their true colors (threatening to end MSL and PL, charging outrageous fees, shutting down alternate streaming and forcing everyone to watch through GomPlayer) and it turns out they're worse than Kespa ever was.
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On September 03 2010 08:00 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 07:53 moopie wrote:On September 03 2010 07:42 Saracen wrote:
Great rant. I really, really try to find evidence that Blizzard cares about eSports. But it seems that every single decision they make is just one huge fuckup after another in that department.
Viewable match history? The ladder maps are a joke. The balance is a joke. How about implementing a decent map system? How about allowing users to contribute a decent map pool? Paying to watch a tournament? No one paid to watch Brood War. No one paid to watch the World Cup. What dumbass is going to pay to watch a SC2 tournament on imbalanced maps with imbalanced races? B.net is still a joke. Every day, Blizzard seems more and more like a bunch of foreign corporate suits flocking in to seize control of a dying industry, but totally disregarding its history, integrity, and pride. Like, one day, maybe in '07, some Blizzard guys were like "omg look, SC is doing so well in Korea, we gotta get on that shit." And then they brute-force their way into the industry while madly waving the bullshit "eSports" flag to the public. That's pretty much it, yeah. Bnet 0.2 No LAN Segregated realms No chatrooms for release Attempting to squeeze out the BW scene to make room for SC2 Pay-only streams for GSL It really is just trying to destroy the competition so you can push an inferior product out to the masses with the biggest profit margin possible. The sad thing is if they tried it the traditional way, didn't try to control and squeeze KeSPA out with those ridiculous demands and instead cooperated with the already existing esport scene in Korea, balanced or not, the bigger teams (SKT, KT, STX) would surely have added SC2 teams and OGN/MBCGame would give airtime to a SC2 proleague. For all their talk of esports and wanting this to go global (while being in the driver seat like they are trying to be), Blizzard hasn't once (in over 10 years) tried to set up anything in the US or Europe. Too much effort, time and risk. They just saw what Korea had and wanted a piece of it. Even if they get their way and kill off BW though, the Korean fans will hate them and I can't see the current sponsors showing too much appreciation either. By shitting on KeSPA they are shitting on some of Korea's biggest corporations (who hopefully won't scab later). I really hope this comes back to bite them in the ass -_- [/rant] The thing which annoys me more than anything else is that SC2 is such an amazing game that if they had just gone for a hands off approach then SC2 would have thrived and developed EXACTLY like they are trying to force it to right now.
The problem for Blizzard is that's not soon enough for them. They want instant results as soon as the game's released. They can't be bothered with waiting a few years for the SC2 scene to develop and really get into a groove itself. So instead they've just been trying to man-handle it into the eSports scene. I've really lost a lot of respect for all the companies involved (Blizzard, KeSPA, Gretech) over the last few months. None of them are doing this for the fans, or in my eyes, even partially for the fans. It's really quite disheartening watching this great thing that I've derived so many hours of joy from watching and experiencing could come all crumbling down because of greed basically. Dark times for eSports indeed.
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Who would want to sponsor the next Proleague, when there's a chance of it getting shut down?
How awesome would it be if they got the biggest law firm in Korea as the next PL sponsor.
^_^
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If SC2 doesnt get big in Korea, the game will die. Do you think any other country in the world gives a shit about e-sports?
I think this is a very defeatist attitude.
Raleigh and others have shown that the world is open to e-sports.
Korea taking a backseat on SC2 would be a good thing for international e-sports IMO.
Looking at just Seoul is short-sighted, THE WORLD IS READY!
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Kennigit
Canada19447 Posts
On September 03 2010 07:35 thedeadhaji wrote:
so they're more focused on getting black in short term.
How dare you
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Canada2480 Posts
On September 03 2010 08:32 gyth wrote:Show nested quote +If SC2 doesnt get big in Korea, the game will die. Do you think any other country in the world gives a shit about e-sports? I think this is a very defeatist attitude. Raleigh and others have shown that the world is open to e-sports. Korea taking a backseat on SC2 would be a good thing for international e-sports IMO. Looking at just Seoul is short-sighted, THE WORLD IS READY!
ehh not really?
raleigh was a nice event and all but in the grand scheme of things worldwide E-Sports need korea to be able to strive
PL grand finals : 30 000 people (2nd worst showing in history)
Raleigh: a good bunch of thousands less with a lot not even being SC2 fans
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On September 03 2010 08:32 gyth wrote:Show nested quote +If SC2 doesnt get big in Korea, the game will die. Do you think any other country in the world gives a shit about e-sports? I think this is a very defeatist attitude. Raleigh and others have shown that the world is open to e-sports.
With less intense actions and overall disappointing games.
Korea taking a backseat on SC2 would be a good thing for international e-sports IMO
Because the whole SC scene in Korea is not huge afaik.
Looking at just Seoul is short-sighted, THE WORLD IS READY!
World isn't ready. ESL was okay, MLG was just stupid on how things were run and the games itself. Will it get larger? Hopefully. Will SC / SC2 scene around the world become as big as / bigger than Korea? At this rate, No.
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On September 03 2010 08:12 moopie wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 08:07 imbecile wrote:
They will fix it all by putting a lot of money into price pools. Prize pool won't get them fans. Prize pool won't get them actual progaming teams anywhere near the same level, since individual leagues only cater to the top few % of people, and the rest get eliminated in prelims/ro32. At best you'll get a few guys in a clan with a sponsor and try their luck month after month. Prize pool won't get them sponsor recognition after they go around pissing on some of the biggest potential sponsors in Korea and destroying the natural order of things. Hell, prize pool won't even bring the loved BW icons to SC2 (which is how you would want to phase SC2 in to begin with).
Hey, should have used sarcasm tags.
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i may not agree on everything you wrote but this surely makes me sad
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Great read..it's sad on how things turn out after all this time..
and btw, I found typos.
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On September 03 2010 08:44 imbecile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 08:12 moopie wrote:On September 03 2010 08:07 imbecile wrote:
They will fix it all by putting a lot of money into price pools. Prize pool won't get them fans. Prize pool won't get them actual progaming teams anywhere near the same level, since individual leagues only cater to the top few % of people, and the rest get eliminated in prelims/ro32. At best you'll get a few guys in a clan with a sponsor and try their luck month after month. Prize pool won't get them sponsor recognition after they go around pissing on some of the biggest potential sponsors in Korea and destroying the natural order of things. Hell, prize pool won't even bring the loved BW icons to SC2 (which is how you would want to phase SC2 in to begin with). Hey, should have used sarcasm tags.
But yeah this is the problem. I as a spectator don't give a shit if it's a 2000$ or a 150.000$ prize pool. They'll have the same players participating, they'll try just as hard. Having regular salaries and a teamleague would be much better for SCII as an ESPORT but Blizzard doesn't understand. They never do.
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Only if Kespa managed a few small situations differently and caused some less shitstorms, they would have a lot more support and their position would be a lot more favorable. T_T
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I pretty much agree on this, it's like watching 2 little kids fight, you would prefer to just smack them and tell them to wisen up.
BTW I'm calling it here, this season was the last "complete" season for BW, at least one major korean tourney will die and the rest will follow suit within a year.
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What I find funny is how the original poster (and so many others) you think that fans are entitled to something.
"I've been playing SC1 since the day it came out, and I haven't paid one cent for it! I pirated the game and have been a loyal cheapskate my whole life! Bow down and grovel at my feet, Blizzard! You will die without us!"
Fans love to talk about how loyal and devoted they are, but really, when they are operating WoW and getting millions of dollars a month, what do you think any sane person would value more: paying customers or cheap bastards who just make endless demands and are never satisfied?
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On September 03 2010 08:42 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 08:32 gyth wrote:
Korea taking a backseat on SC2 would be a good thing for international e-sports IMO Because the whole SC scene in Korea is not huge afaik.
I think one of the reasons BW didn't really spread out of Korea is because the Koreans were so far ahead. If their best and brightest aren't crushing the rest of the world maybe the rest of the world will want to play the game (SC2).
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How depressing.
So many of us, myself included, thought that SC2 would lead the way into a new era of e-sports. However, as things are right now, the release of SC2 might have killed e-sports.
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On September 03 2010 09:05 Wolfpox wrote:
What I find funny is how the original poster (and so many others) you think that fans are entitled to something.
"I've been playing SC1 since the day it came out, and I haven't paid one cent for it! I pirated the game and have been a loyal cheapskate my whole life! Bow down and grovel at my feet, Blizzard! You will die without us!"
Yup, you got us. Milkis and everyone else who's siding with KeSPA on this are dirty pirates who have never paid for a Blizzard game.
Can I read your version of TL?? because this thread sounds like it would be a lot more interesting.
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On September 03 2010 08:05 tree.hugger wrote:
A house divided against itself cannot stand. These games must grow and work in tandem. These games are brothers, not father and son. The new posters on these forums should know this. It's time Sc2 began caring about what happened with BW, and the BW fans began to care about Sc2, not necessarily as games, but as industries.
Thank you so much for being so eloquent. Couldn't have said it better. SC2 could capitalize on the popularity of BW, not kill it off.
€: Also the Lincoln quote is a nice touch.
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On September 03 2010 09:05 Wolfpox wrote:
What I find funny is how the original poster (and so many others) you think that fans are entitled to something.
"I've been playing SC1 since the day it came out, and I haven't paid one cent for it! I pirated the game and have been a loyal cheapskate my whole life! Bow down and grovel at my feet, Blizzard! You will die without us!"
Fans love to talk about how loyal and devoted they are, but really, when they are operating WoW and getting millions of dollars a month, what do you think any sane person would value more: paying customers or cheap bastards who just make endless demands and are never satisfied?
I'm sure that the average TL poster has bought broodwar at least two times 
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On September 03 2010 09:05 Wolfpox wrote:
What I find funny is how the original poster (and so many others) you think that fans are entitled to something.
"I've been playing SC1 since the day it came out, and I haven't paid one cent for it! I pirated the game and have been a loyal cheapskate my whole life! Bow down and grovel at my feet, Blizzard! You will die without us!"
Fans love to talk about how loyal and devoted they are, but really, when they are operating WoW and getting millions of dollars a month, what do you think any sane person would value more: paying customers or cheap bastards who just make endless demands and are never satisfied?
If thats wat u think e-sports is all about then go ahead. no one in their right mind would continue to sponsor sports like basketball/football/soccer/etc in america if there were no fanbase for it. there is a reason why this thing is called E-Sport, so that the spectators can enjoy a video game we came to love. look at how much the korean economy has changed just based around Starcraft 1. the spectators feed the industry by continuous support of the players/game. your attitude towards e-sports is exactly why SC2 isnt as big as it should be right now
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it's sad to see these fight for more money and power...
SPL, OSL and MSL are legacy of lots of players and their effort for 10 long years. Now its image has been torn down in only last few month.
Today BN EU server was down. for 30 min. Blizzard told us that there is no need for LAN because BN will be "awesome" (in their language). I just dont get it when in every 10 game a player is kicked out because of that.
Pity that i cant change anything yet.
I just hope the best for fans and Blizzard.
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Good rant. I am just sitting back and watching the ship. Right now it is smoking but who knows what they might actually have planned behind closed doors. That smoke could go away or a fire could start and the ship sink. They might release a huge content patch that addresses a lot of the current issues sometime this month or maybe 6 months down the road(might be too late for the mainstream).
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On September 03 2010 09:05 Wolfpox wrote:
What I find funny is how the original poster (and so many others) you think that fans are entitled to something.
"I've been playing SC1 since the day it came out, and I haven't paid one cent for it! I pirated the game and have been a loyal cheapskate my whole life! Bow down and grovel at my feet, Blizzard! You will die without us!"
Fans love to talk about how loyal and devoted they are, but really, when they are operating WoW and getting millions of dollars a month, what do you think any sane person would value more: paying customers or cheap bastards who just make endless demands and are never satisfied?
We arent entitled to anything? What the hell are you talking about.
We dont think we are entitled because we played the game for 109190501358 years, or because we only play blizzard games. We think we are entitled because they are throwing a product at us. We are the consumers. Regardless of how intelligent we all are, and how much we care about the product, what it comes down to is Blizzard feeding a fanbase that they want money from.
If they want money we have a right to decide what we pay for. Yes we play for Sc2, but we want it given to us in a certain way. Blizzard really does not have huge leverage to string us along as they are.
And piracy really is not a huge deal. Their goal was not to stop piracy but to control Kespa and other Kespa like entities. What Piracy? An ICCup server came up, shut that down. Hamachi is hosting Sc2? Sue Hamachi, make them stop hosting Sc2. Pirated games? Make it so you have to login with an actual CD key before LAN or anything. What does the pirater have now? 1v1 vs AI?
There are just so many ways they could have made this better for the fans. Certain versions for multiple copies in PC bangs. LAN functionality per 1 CD key. Implement chat channels when people wanted chat channels.
We are entitled to what we pay for. What we want to pay for is a clean industry that works. And we arent getting it.
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On September 03 2010 08:10 Megalisk wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 08:00 Plexa wrote:On September 03 2010 07:53 moopie wrote:On September 03 2010 07:42 Saracen wrote:
Great rant. I really, really try to find evidence that Blizzard cares about eSports. But it seems that every single decision they make is just one huge fuckup after another in that department.
Viewable match history? The ladder maps are a joke. The balance is a joke. How about implementing a decent map system? How about allowing users to contribute a decent map pool? Paying to watch a tournament? No one paid to watch Brood War. No one paid to watch the World Cup. What dumbass is going to pay to watch a SC2 tournament on imbalanced maps with imbalanced races? B.net is still a joke. Every day, Blizzard seems more and more like a bunch of foreign corporate suits flocking in to seize control of a dying industry, but totally disregarding its history, integrity, and pride. Like, one day, maybe in '07, some Blizzard guys were like "omg look, SC is doing so well in Korea, we gotta get on that shit." And then they brute-force their way into the industry while madly waving the bullshit "eSports" flag to the public. That's pretty much it, yeah. Bnet 0.2 No LAN Segregated realms No chatrooms for release Attempting to squeeze out the BW scene to make room for SC2 Pay-only streams for GSL It really is just trying to destroy the competition so you can push an inferior product out to the masses with the biggest profit margin possible. The sad thing is if they tried it the traditional way, didn't try to control and squeeze KeSPA out with those ridiculous demands and instead cooperated with the already existing esport scene in Korea, balanced or not, the bigger teams (SKT, KT, STX) would surely have added SC2 teams and OGN/MBCGame would give airtime to a SC2 proleague. For all their talk of esports and wanting this to go global (while being in the driver seat like they are trying to be), Blizzard hasn't once (in over 10 years) tried to set up anything in the US or Europe. Too much effort, time and risk. They just saw what Korea had and wanted a piece of it. Even if they get their way and kill off BW though, the Korean fans will hate them and I can't see the current sponsors showing too much appreciation either. By shitting on KeSPA they are shitting on some of Korea's biggest corporations (who hopefully won't scab later). I really hope this comes back to bite them in the ass -_- [/rant] The thing which annoys me more than anything else is that SC2 is such an amazing game that if they had just gone for a hands off approach then SC2 would have thrived and developed EXACTLY like they are trying to force it to right now. Yeah the game itself is the shit but everything around it sucks balls.
damn right plexa. The game, the graphics, the 3-d graphics, the new features (destructible rocks, watch towers, gold expansions) its the bomb.
sc2 is awesome. Its beautiful. However, why play a game which requires no skill??? Absolutely no skill??? Fuck diamond rank 1 people, they brag about themselves being one and shit, they were d- in iccup. Why play a game which lags like shit???? "Fuck LAN," is what Blizzard said to everyone who purchased the game. I wanna play against someone in Europe. Hey spend $60.00 more because money is all we care about. Thats what Blizzard said.
Then we go to imbalance. We don't care about a balanced game, we care about money. The sad thing is that we raged about marauders being op, HAS ANY FUCKING CHANGE BEEN MADE??? THATS THE BIGGEST F-U THAT THE PUBLIC HAS RECEIVED. WE'RE NOT GOING TO LISTEN TO YOUR GUYS.
One of the main reasons i didn't get mad when my brother got the game and I didn't. Played sc1. Thought about sc2, but if a game is going to bring me the false illusion that im a good player when im not...when a company says f-u to everyone...the best thing to do is say f-u back.
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Saying SC:BW in Korea doesn't matter cause you don't live in Korea is not a well thought out statement. BW is popular worldwide BECAUSE of its Proleagues in Korea. Without those, it would never be what it is today. Without Korea, you don't have modern E-sports, period.
It's kind of like if the NFL stopped existing and someone in France said it didn't matter, he could just watch games from his own country. While it may be popular to watch in other parts of the world, its only because of its overwhelming success in another country. If it dies there, it will inevitably die everywhere, because it will be left with that glaring tag of "failure" in the only place it was ever truly successful.
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Valhalla18444 Posts
i cant understand how they signed a contract with gretech in the first place, if the company is so hard up in desperate need for income that they absolutely cannot provide a free LQ stream (as they say they are), why would a gigantic company with broad plans for the future like blizzard entrust the development of sc2 esports to them? not a single person on either side saw this coming? or anticipated a huge backlash from the fanbase?
i must say that as far as the game itself is concerned, blizzard did an exceedingly good job listening to us. we have a game that is surely different from bw, but is dynamic and exciting to watch, and fun to play. the game's release and consequent success was a strong sign that Blizzard as a game developer is trustworthy and dependable. that's great! but if i was their marketing CO, i'd be fuming over this gretech situation. if they aren't i'd say there's something wrong.
it isn't so much that we as a fanbase feel we deserve better, its that we as a fanbase are aware of the fact that it's really not that hard to set up things like an international LQ stream. hordes of broke-ass nerds do it for free every day. it's also just a bit alarming, given that two of their three major focal points (the game itself, bnet2, and the development of esports) really don't live up to snuff.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On September 03 2010 07:43 Lysis wrote:
Although I find your rant to make a lot of sense, I don't see a mention of the rest of the world in this. In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit. GSL? more like a Korean SC2 League since the friggen qualifiers were held in Seoul and if you couldn't hop on a plane to Korea tough luck. Instead of focusing on Korea like it's Mecca or something let's make e-Sports truly global so people like me (high schooler from the US) involved in this like any other kid can be involved in sports. Call Blizzard greedy, stupid, uninformed or whatever the hell you want to, but they're the ones who can actually make this happen.
So I don't think you read the part in the article about how eSports actually developed in Korea?
Sorry to break it to you, but unless you don't give a fuck about eSports in general, it won't develop in the US unless it happens in Korea first. Why? Culture issues. Ideas about gamers. Money. The devotion of the gamers.
Esports has no chance of being global unless it happens in Korea first, and at this rate we are going backwards (killing SC1) and all esports will die.
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Behind Talk (casters talking about e-sports controversy) probably ended early so that people wouldn't pressure OGN to talk about the negotiations on that show.
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KeSPA or Blizzard/Gretech. I feel like right now it's choosing the lesser evil.
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Activision is the mastermind behind this bull****
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Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion. That first part bugged me along with some grammatical errors and lack of knowledge made me only read about half of what you said. I just want to say that KeSPA does not run anything, it's only because there are groups like MBC Game and Ongamenet that are continuing to partner with KeSPA is why there still alive, and I also think it's ridiculous that KeSPA thinks they have rights to Starcraft, when in fact, Blizzard owns ALL rights to Starcraft because it's there game and they copyrighted it. Blizzard should have shut down KeSPA when they first started. I can't see them lasting much longer.
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I totally agree with the OP, and i also wanna add that i really dislike this force-feeding e-Sports with StarCraft II which is happening right now. There are tournaments, there are substantial prize money pool, yet the whole skill level and passion are still elusive to me. Watching Korean SC:BW scene surely made me expect tighter games from the gamers in question, and this is in no way attack towards the gamers, rather on the whole development of the situation.
P.S. I can see the downfall of the game so vividly, if it's not picked up by Korean society.
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Aotearoa39261 Posts
On September 03 2010 10:51 Domonic wrote:
Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion. That first part bugged me along with some grammatical errors and lack of knowledge made me only read about half of what you said. I just want to say that KeSPA does not run anything, it's only because there are groups like MBC Game and Ongamenet that are continuing to partner with KeSPA is why there still alive, and I also think it's ridiculous that KeSPA thinks they have rights to Starcraft, when in fact, Blizzard owns ALL rights to Starcraft because it's there game and they copyrighted it. Blizzard should have shut down KeSPA when they first started. I can't see them lasting much longer.
.... I think milkis knows a lot more about this situation than the average person
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On September 03 2010 09:05 Wolfpox wrote:
What I find funny is how the original poster (and so many others) you think that fans are entitled to something.
"I've been playing SC1 since the day it came out, and I haven't paid one cent for it! I pirated the game and have been a loyal cheapskate my whole life! Bow down and grovel at my feet, Blizzard! You will die without us!"
Fans love to talk about how loyal and devoted they are, but really, when they are operating WoW and getting millions of dollars a month, what do you think any sane person would value more: paying customers or cheap bastards who just make endless demands and are never satisfied?
Except they bought SC2?
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Wow. This is a perfect reiteration of my own opinion. Something I wanted to say myself if only I had higher visibility in either here or korean community.
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On September 03 2010 10:51 Domonic wrote:
Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion.
Hmmm, if it is my opinion that one can have a wrong opinion, is that opinion wrong?
Goddamnit, I don't know what I'm talking about. I shouldn't be hanging around TL at 4 AM. I'm going to bed.
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On September 03 2010 11:04 Holgerius wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 10:51 Domonic wrote:
Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion. Hmmm, if it is my opinion that one can have a wrong opinion, is that opinion wrong?
no, because that is your opinion. lol 
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Sorry to break it to you, but unless you don't give a fuck about eSports in general, it won't develop in the US unless it happens in Korea first. Why? Culture issues. Ideas about gamers. Money. The devotion of the gamers.
They're devoted to a different game.
I think it would be easier for an international league to find sponsors than force Korea to switch to SC2.
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Amazing Amazing AMAZING thread
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On September 03 2010 09:05 Wolfpox wrote:
endless demands and are never satisfied?
Which resulted in good patches, only resulting new players screaming imba.
And yes I have paid for the game in the past. In fact, many of us did. The reason why some of us have pirated copies is because we have lost our CD during the 10 years in the middle (I used no CD-Key patch with Hanbitsoft's Korean SC Patch).
And don't even argue about the registration online with bnet registration; it never existed until recently.
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On September 03 2010 12:13 SkyLegenD wrote:
Two words - boycott SC2
and ? your suggestion lacks purpose and an alternative so sc2.
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On September 03 2010 12:13 SkyLegenD wrote:
Two words - boycott SC2
no - boycott paid GSL streams, watch free restream instead
Great rant Milkis, i didn't know that the korean netizens were that much in favor of blizzard/gretech. I sided with them before, but after they basically said they want to kill off BW proleague i'm not in favor of anyone.
Fuck Gretech, fuck KeSPA, and fuck Blizzard. Their greed is going to kill the BW pro scene sooner than later...
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On September 03 2010 10:51 Domonic wrote:
Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion. That first part bugged me along with some grammatical errors and lack of knowledge made me only read about half of what you said. I just want to say that KeSPA does not run anything, it's only because there are groups like MBC Game and Ongamenet that are continuing to partner with KeSPA is why there still alive, and I also think it's ridiculous that KeSPA thinks they have rights to Starcraft, when in fact, Blizzard owns ALL rights to Starcraft because it's there game and they copyrighted it. Blizzard should have shut down KeSPA when they first started. I can't see them lasting much longer.
1. What knowledge does he lack? That statement is extremely vague. Please be more specific. Does he have the history wrong? Is he stating the companies names wrong? Has he not included a recent development like McDonalds has sponsored next season's MSL? What?
2. If KeSPA does not run anything, who runs Proleague? Who sets the schedules for that? And who decides what the rules are for these games?
3. KeSPA never stated they had the rights to Starcraft. They believe they have the rights to their broadcasts/games (which is arguable) and their players (which is undeniable, they contract out the players).
4. I disagree with Blizzard Copyrighted it so therefore they own all IP generated from it. It's like saying Microsoft owns everything created by Paint, or Nintendo owns all those youtube videos of Ken vs Azen in Melee. Besides, it hasn't been settled in court yet. They only own the rights to a certain extent. Where that extent is will be decided if they go to court.
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On September 03 2010 10:51 Domonic wrote:
Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion. That first part bugged me along with some grammatical errors and lack of knowledge made me only read about half of what you said. I just want to say that KeSPA does not run anything, it's only because there are groups like MBC Game and Ongamenet that are continuing to partner with KeSPA is why there still alive, and I also think it's ridiculous that KeSPA thinks they have rights to Starcraft, when in fact, Blizzard owns ALL rights to Starcraft because it's there game and they copyrighted it. Blizzard should have shut down KeSPA when they first started. I can't see them lasting much longer.
You criticize milkis for grammatical mistakes, yet you make the same mistakes.
Lack of knowledge is explained in the post above. No need to repeat what's been stated.
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Wow agree with you on this one. I would post the same thing if I were to give a rant lol.
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If Kespa goes down then it takes the BW scene with it...
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5/5 Very good but sad too. T.T
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Milkis it's always so difficult for me to get through your posts that deal with Blizzard/Gretech/Kespa. They always have such a tilted bias. Seems lately you've been coming around a bit on agreeing with people that Kespa is shitty, at least I can agree with that.
Some stuff I picked out from your post. As you said it's a rant but even so it seems all over the place, bringing up things that don't really relate to the whole Esports stuff.
On September 03 2010 07:18 Milkis wrote:
What gives them the balls to try and "kill" (depending on, of course, whose words you believe more) Proleague and the Starleague? They believe that they have the fans support.
It's not about balls, it's about legality. Kespa did a stupid thing selling rights to something they don't own. I think there wouldn't be such a big issue if the rights were never sold. It's obvious Blizzard knew about Pro Starcraft broadcasts and they let them run. When Blizzard learned about the broadcasting rights sale (if you believe what they say, which I'm sure you don't) then they started negotiations and trying to "kill" Proleague.
Why else would they charge for the GSL, a league that is just now starting, on a game that is supposedly "imbalanced" and still in development? Can they even guarantee the streams will be stable, and can they even guarantee that the games will be even worth watching?
Bringing up imbalance at this stage doesn't help your argument. The game is young, people are already watching it in droves, people are participating in tournaments for money. Can they gaurantee the games will be worth watching? Absolutely not. Nobody can. You can't buy a ticket to a hockey game and get upset at the stadium for charging you if the game sucks. Why else would they charge for the GSL? 2 very big reason, ESL and MLG. 2 existing organizations already charging for content so Gretech believes they can do the same. They provide a free stream as well, and I think that's the route Gretech should take.
Do you want e-Sports? I don't care if you're being underpaid and tired. That's how e-Sports began in Korea. Does Gretech really believe that they can get away with building e-Sports without sacrifices, sweat and toil of many, many people? That's why e-Sports grew -- they did it for the fans. The progamers who built the BW scene? They lived in cramped apartments, eating ramen and instant foods. You wanna bitch about progamer conditions now? If you start digging around the old BW threads, you can find threads about players finally being sponsored and getting to move into a "luxury apartment". Those are the conditions. You're underpaid and want compensation? Don't expect e-Sports to grow.
I see this sentiment posted a lot by people. But I never see any realistic solutions or reasoning to go along with it.
OK, progamers built the SC1 scene, that's awesome but there's nothing that says it absolutely has to be that way. What should Gretech do with their big ass tournament prize money instead? Not hold a big ass tournament for the up and coming pro SC2 players?
I've seen you argue about progamer conditions multiple times before and I always disagree with how you put it out there. Your reasoning always seems to be along the lines of; well it sucked way worse before, don't bitch about how it is now. That's a horrible way to look at things. Here's an analogy (analogies always suck but we have to make due). Women want equal pay to men? Damn, don't you remember when women were the property of men, those were some shitty times. Now they can vote, don't bitch about how much they get paid.
Their philosophy is also absolutely and utterly laughable. yes, let's make all progamers "prize hunters" again. Let's just move back to those days where progamers live in tiny apartments. The team that wins first and second place? Great for them, they can eat this month. The rest? Well, you're fucked, time to boil that ramen again. Let's bring all that uncertainty back.
Similar to the above. What exactly do you want them to do? Let SC2 rise on it's own would be your answer I assume. So in the meantime, that 170k per month that would be going out to some up an coming pro's instead goes where?
Maybe it would help if they actually made Battlenet 2.0 more flexible and helpful to finding games, and building connections so you can have practice partners, like the hundreds of aspiring amateurs. But nope. Let's fragment the user bases by forcing people to buy multiple copies. Let's not have chat channels (oh wait, they're patching it on like it's some new feature. nice job there lololol). Maybe make Battlenet 2.0... eSports friendly. Then again, I don't even know.
This whole Bnet 2.0 rant stuff seems completely out of place. I see you trying to relate it to eSports but it really is such a thin thread.
...maps...
Oh, and we'll sell them too $_$.
I understand using a $_$ smily is almost as cool as saying Micro$oft but it's not very clever. People feel so entitled to things. Sure some companies gave out stuff before for free. So what? Times change; costs to everything change over time. And if people are willing to pay for things so quality time can be put into those things then so be it.
For all the shit Blizzard has done in Korea, like making sure everything is perfectly lip synched to the dubbed Korean voices, eliminating every last trace of the roman alphabet, making the game free... Blizzard seems to have missed certain obvious things. It's like wearing a suit and dressing up but your hair is messed up. It's minor, but when people look at it, they don't look at your suit, they look at your hair. Why is there no package release in Korea? Everywhere other than Korea seems to have them. Why treat SC2 like a MMORPG? Are you trying to tell us something about Starcraft 2, Blizzard? For all that 300 million budget you spent on advertising, you seemed to have spent it in the wrong places. How utterly suffocating.
What are the obvious things that are missed? Why does Korea have a different release, more akin to an MMO? Probably because Korea has shown acceptance to such things.
edit: I really do agree with some things you post about Milkis, like Gretech only putting out a pay stream is a bad idea or that Bnet 2.0 could be better. But when I read your tone or see you arguing in IRC there's something about it that just irks me.
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<3 Milkis
I've briefly touched on similar points in old threads, glad you're bringing it up again.
As for netizens siding with Blizzard, I hope it's just the vocal minority. Those silly netizens
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5003 Posts
It's not about balls, it's about legality. Kespa did a stupid thing selling rights to something they don't own. I think there wouldn't be such a big issue if the rights were never sold. It's obvious Blizzard knew about Pro Starcraft broadcasts and they let them run. When Blizzard learned about the broadcasting rights sale (if you believe what they say, which I'm sure you don't) then they started negotiations and trying to "kill" Proleague.
Hi I'm blizzard i care more about my rights over a 10 year old game more so than i care about the entire fan base that got me this reputation as a great game maker
EDIT: I'm not really willing to discuss "solutions" because there's literally no point in me talking about potential things Blizzard/Gretech could do. A lot of your points are minor nitpicks that either miss the point or are rather... irrelevant lol. Like I said, it's only a rant, take it as you will, you can disagree and I dont really want to bothered discussing it, or else I'd have made this a more discussion oriented thread.
And yeah my tone isn't the best since I tend to be blunt.
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On September 03 2010 14:12 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +It's not about balls, it's about legality. Kespa did a stupid thing selling rights to something they don't own. I think there wouldn't be such a big issue if the rights were never sold. It's obvious Blizzard knew about Pro Starcraft broadcasts and they let them run. When Blizzard learned about the broadcasting rights sale (if you believe what they say, which I'm sure you don't) then they started negotiations and trying to "kill" Proleague. Hi I'm blizzard i care more about my rights over a 10 year old game more so than i care about the entire fan base that got me this reputation as a great game maker
You overvalue the Korean fanbase and Starcraft. Maybe I undervalue it a little bit, perhaps we can meet somewhere in the middle. Blizzard was doing pretty well before Starcraft, and I think I'm pretty safe in saying that even if they never ever created Starcraft they would still be a massive company producing good games. Also as you said, for whatever reasons the Korean netizens seem to be on Blizzard's side, they must be doing at least a few things right.
Also. Hi I'm Blizzard, I care about my rights because that's how a business operates, I'm part of a publicly owned company and so I must provide profit to my shareholders. Also if I do not protect my rights then that can later be used against me in court if I try to protect my rights in another instance.
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5003 Posts
On September 03 2010 14:17 GogoKodo wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 14:12 Milkis wrote:It's not about balls, it's about legality. Kespa did a stupid thing selling rights to something they don't own. I think there wouldn't be such a big issue if the rights were never sold. It's obvious Blizzard knew about Pro Starcraft broadcasts and they let them run. When Blizzard learned about the broadcasting rights sale (if you believe what they say, which I'm sure you don't) then they started negotiations and trying to "kill" Proleague. Hi I'm blizzard i care more about my rights over a 10 year old game more so than i care about the entire fan base that got me this reputation as a great game maker You overvalue the Korean fanbase and Starcraft. Maybe I undervalue it a little bit, perhaps we can meet somewhere in the middle. Blizzard was doing pretty well before Starcraft, and I think I'm pretty safe in saying that even if they never ever created Starcraft they would still be a massive company producing good games. Also as you said, for whatever reasons the Korean netizens seem to be on Blizzard's side, they must be doing at least a few things right. Also. Hi I'm Blizzard, I care about my rights because that's how a business operates, I'm part of a publicly owned company and so I must provide profit to my shareholders. Also if I do not protect my rights then that can later be used against me in court if I try to protect my rights in another instance.
I've specifically implied why koreans side with blizzard lol. 100% of the reason why koreans view blizzard as a savior is cause kespa is rather mediocre.
like i said i really don't want to argue with people about this because it's about as effective as arguing with a brick wall because in the end we all have different priorities when we look at the situation. That's pretty much what differentiates between us, I don't give a fuck about the law, but only the reason "why" the law was created. everything else is impractical and inefficient.
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On September 03 2010 14:12 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +It's not about balls, it's about legality. Kespa did a stupid thing selling rights to something they don't own. I think there wouldn't be such a big issue if the rights were never sold. It's obvious Blizzard knew about Pro Starcraft broadcasts and they let them run. When Blizzard learned about the broadcasting rights sale (if you believe what they say, which I'm sure you don't) then they started negotiations and trying to "kill" Proleague. Hi I'm blizzard i care more about my rights over a 10 year old game more so than i care about the entire fan base that got me this reputation as a great game maker EDIT: I'm not really willing to discuss "solutions" because there's literally no point in me talking about potential things Blizzard/Gretech could do. A lot of your points are minor nitpicks that either miss the point or are rather... irrelevant lol. Like I said, it's only a rant, take it as you will, you can disagree and I dont really want to bothered discussing it, or else I'd have made this a more discussion oriented thread. And yeah my tone isn't the best since I tend to be blunt.
A lot of your points are minor nitpicks that either miss the point or are rather... irrelevant lol.
Maybe I should have just posted that in response to your rant? I guess you did state it was a rant, and now you say this isn't really open for discussion so I'll stop.
Beyond the whole rant thing, a lot of your other posts come off the exact same way this one does. It's not just that you're blunt either, which is fine, it's the whole air of all your posts and how you write them, it rubs me the wrong way even when I agree with you.
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What should Gretech do with their big ass tournament prize money instead?
Its a 64 person tourney, give everyone 2k and split the rest up however.
Right now you get 260$ for winning the first match, and half the people get NOTHING???
Thats no way to live.
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I am replying exactly after your disclaimer.... I love it... edit will be after I read
edit:
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Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people?
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5003 Posts
On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people?
Why would you pay for a service that's very, very uncertain?
You pay 20 dollars for MLB Premium. Baseball is very well established, the players are professional, the game has developed enough to the point it's exciting in its own way with professional casters.
SC2 has nothing like that. In fact, I'm almost certain that even if they have paid streams, they can't guarantee a good, stable stream even when paid. Hell, it's not even HQ.
Honestly Gom should just 1) have live stream free, 2) charge 99 cents per VoD. Why? LIve Stream is already on at an inconvenient time anyway, but people will hype it, recommend it, and people looking at that will purchase VoDs. At least that way you know you're only paying for "quality" content.
Or even have this entire season free so that people are more certain of GOM's quality, and then they can charge for it (for a lower price i hope) in the future. Right now there's a lot of uncertainty and helping people confirm GSL's quality will help out a ton.
I don't think people should have to blindly pay for products they're not certain of.
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100% agree with OP. I will be extremely pissed if BW dies, and SC2 remains in its current state, not entertaining and imbalanced. Paying to watch an SC2 tournament is also ridiculous. I'm absolutely fine with SC2 being BW's successor, but BW's successor can't be not fun to watch and have no venues to watch conveniently.
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On September 03 2010 15:16 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people? Why would you pay for a service that's very, very uncertain? You pay 20 dollars for MLB Premium. Baseball is very well established, the players are professional, the game has developed enough to the point it's exciting in its own way with professional casters. SC2 has nothing like that. In fact, I'm almost certain that even if they have paid streams, they can't guarantee a good, stable stream even when paid. Hell, it's not even HQ. Honestly Gom should just 1) have live stream free, 2) charge 99 cents per VoD. Why? LIve Stream is already on at an inconvenient time anyway, but people will hype it, recommend it, and people looking at that will purchase VoDs. At least that way you know you're only paying for "quality" content. Or even have this entire season free so that people are more certain of GOM's quality, and then they can charge for it (for a lower price i hope) in the future. Right now there's a lot of uncertainty and helping people confirm GSL's quality will help out a ton. I don't think people should have to blindly pay for products they're not certain of.
But isn't that the same for every party involved? There's no guarantee that StarCraft II will become a success. Why should Gretech invest in a product that's very, very uncertain? Why would KeSPA make concessions for it? Nobody wants to risk losing. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I can't blame people for using the same reasoning I am - I won't purchase GOM's product for the same reason they're not offering it to me free.
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From a strictly Australian point of view, it would appear that some of the issues in this thread are pretty heavily overexaggerated. In the one month SC2 has been out, it has already generated more tournament money in Australia (and possibly SEA) than WarCraft 3 did in it's entire lifespan. And I dare say the same for Brood War.
In a single month since the release of SC2, we've seen sponsors sweeping up massive events like IEM and MGL. It's a brand new game and money is pouring out all over the place. Whilst I expected a hesitant and staggered introduction to the eSports scene for SC2, it really feels like the game has hit the ground running. I can certainly say my expectations were never this high, and so far the combined sponsors/communities and players have delivered something that feels naturally high-calibre.
Now of course, you'd have to be naive to expect no upsets along the way. I personally didn't even think we'd be at THIS point for at least another year. It's a new game with lots of new players and communities. There's issues right now, and there probably will be a long time from now. But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On September 03 2010 15:30 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:16 Milkis wrote:On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people? Why would you pay for a service that's very, very uncertain? You pay 20 dollars for MLB Premium. Baseball is very well established, the players are professional, the game has developed enough to the point it's exciting in its own way with professional casters. SC2 has nothing like that. In fact, I'm almost certain that even if they have paid streams, they can't guarantee a good, stable stream even when paid. Hell, it's not even HQ. Honestly Gom should just 1) have live stream free, 2) charge 99 cents per VoD. Why? LIve Stream is already on at an inconvenient time anyway, but people will hype it, recommend it, and people looking at that will purchase VoDs. At least that way you know you're only paying for "quality" content. Or even have this entire season free so that people are more certain of GOM's quality, and then they can charge for it (for a lower price i hope) in the future. Right now there's a lot of uncertainty and helping people confirm GSL's quality will help out a ton. I don't think people should have to blindly pay for products they're not certain of. But isn't that the same for every party involved? There's no guarantee that StarCraft II will become a success. Why should Gretech invest in a product that's very, very uncertain? Why would KeSPA make concessions for it? Nobody wants to risk losing. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I can't blame people for using the same reasoning I am - I won't purchase GOM's product for the same reason they're not offering it to me free.
Gretech should be investing money into this for future profit. A successful business doesn't anticipate profit in year 1. Their goal should be expanding the customer base before trying to cash in. Look at Facebook, Godaddy, and Google. They took funding from their investors, use it all, then ask for more money from their investors, before thinking of methods to make money from their customers. That's how you go from small business to big business.
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Yeah, stuff like this definitely makes me sadface.
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On September 03 2010 10:51 Domonic wrote:
Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion. That first part bugged me along with some grammatical errors and lack of knowledge made me only read about half of what you said. I just want to say that KeSPA does not run anything, it's only because there are groups like MBC Game and Ongamenet that are continuing to partner with KeSPA is why there still alive, and I also think it's ridiculous that KeSPA thinks they have rights to Starcraft, when in fact, Blizzard owns ALL rights to Starcraft because it's there game and they copyrighted it. Blizzard should have shut down KeSPA when they first started. I can't see them lasting much longer.
Why the fuck would you bother posting when you have no idea what you're talking about?
On September 03 2010 09:05 Wolfpox wrote:
What I find funny is how the original poster (and so many others) you think that fans are entitled to something.
"I've been playing SC1 since the day it came out, and I haven't paid one cent for it! I pirated the game and have been a loyal cheapskate my whole life! Bow down and grovel at my feet, Blizzard! You will die without us!"
Fans love to talk about how loyal and devoted they are, but really, when they are operating WoW and getting millions of dollars a month, what do you think any sane person would value more: paying customers or cheap bastards who just make endless demands and are never satisfied?
Uh what? Everyone who plays SC2 bought SC2, what people are talking about is not paying for GSL streams. Do you even know why esports got as big as it is in korea? One of the major reasons is that it was free to watch for everyone. Do you really fucking think people who never really played much rts or dont play sc2 all that much are gonna pay to watch the GSL stream? No. Not a fucking chance. But if it were free, sure they'd tune in because why the fuck not? I'll watch it, if i like it i'll watch more, if i dont w/e, it was free.
On September 03 2010 15:37 Dox wrote:But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle.
What the fuck kind of twisted failure of logic allows you to think like this? SC2 only has this esports scene BECAUSE it is riding on the hype of sc1 and wc3.
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On September 03 2010 15:37 Dox wrote:
From a strictly Australian point of view, it would appear that some of the issues in this thread are pretty heavily overexaggerated. In the one month SC2 has been out, it has already generated more tournament money in Australia (and possibly SEA) than WarCraft 3 did in it's entire lifespan. And I dare say the same for Brood War.
In a single month since the release of SC2, we've seen sponsors sweeping up massive events like IEM and MGL. It's a brand new game and money is pouring out all over the place. Whilst I expected a hesitant and staggered introduction to the eSports scene for SC2, it really feels like the game has hit the ground running. I can certainly say my expectations were never this high, and so far the combined sponsors/communities and players have delivered something that feels naturally high-calibre.
Now of course, you'd have to be naive to expect no upsets along the way. I personally didn't even think we'd be at THIS point for at least another year. It's a new game with lots of new players and communities. There's issues right now, and there probably will be a long time from now. But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle.
No its not. Sc1 is what established e-sports in the first place. SC2 is basically just feeding off of all the hard work put into Broodwar.
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Personally, I think that the rest of the world is being underestimated here, Korea is and will probably always be a big part of esports but I really don't see why people seem to have this idea that if BW dies and Sc2 fails in Korea then esports will just collapse. It will be a pretty huge blow to esports, there's no question about that, but do you really think it will be some sort of apocalypse?
I mean, I love watching BW and just like most people here I would be sad to see the BW esports-scene die out. But I can't help but think that this is the way things have worked in past, just take a look at human history. 2000 years ago the Roman empire was the dominating force in the world that brought us tons and tons of new ideas and inventions that helped society to advance forward. But in the end, like all empires, it died out and new forces started to push society forward instead.
Maybe that's the way to look at Korea and BW, they have brought esports here and now other games and other countries can take over.
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eSports shouldn't have to end because a developer decides it's the case, that's the fundamental problem with developers having any control over the scene other than some royalties... sure the SC2 foreign scene is big now, but for how long? Do you really see it lasting like that for 10 years like the OSL? There's an established industry in Korean for BW, with still plenty of fans/sponsors/teams. The industry has been nothing but beneficial for Blizzard with half of the BW copies being sold in Korea. It's really a big shame if they decide to try and shut it down now, because that will have long-term negative effects on eSports as a whole.
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On September 03 2010 15:39 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:30 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On September 03 2010 15:16 Milkis wrote:On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people? Why would you pay for a service that's very, very uncertain? You pay 20 dollars for MLB Premium. Baseball is very well established, the players are professional, the game has developed enough to the point it's exciting in its own way with professional casters. SC2 has nothing like that. In fact, I'm almost certain that even if they have paid streams, they can't guarantee a good, stable stream even when paid. Hell, it's not even HQ. Honestly Gom should just 1) have live stream free, 2) charge 99 cents per VoD. Why? LIve Stream is already on at an inconvenient time anyway, but people will hype it, recommend it, and people looking at that will purchase VoDs. At least that way you know you're only paying for "quality" content. Or even have this entire season free so that people are more certain of GOM's quality, and then they can charge for it (for a lower price i hope) in the future. Right now there's a lot of uncertainty and helping people confirm GSL's quality will help out a ton. I don't think people should have to blindly pay for products they're not certain of. But isn't that the same for every party involved? There's no guarantee that StarCraft II will become a success. Why should Gretech invest in a product that's very, very uncertain? Why would KeSPA make concessions for it? Nobody wants to risk losing. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I can't blame people for using the same reasoning I am - I won't purchase GOM's product for the same reason they're not offering it to me free. Gretech should be investing money into this for future profit. A successful business doesn't anticipate profit in year 1. Their goal should be expanding the customer base before trying to cash in. Look at Facebook, Godaddy, and Google. They took funding from their investors, use it all, then ask for more money from their investors, before thinking of methods to make money from their customers. That's how you go from small business to big business.
And that's probably the underlying reason Blizzard did not push for SC1 IP issue with such tenacity until it's time to "cash in". It's not entirely Blizzard's fault in this case, KeSPA set themselves up as the cash cow. In my opinion, the timing of SC2, and why it's given such a lengthy development period was probably all part of an ingenious corporate plan. Gretech's success or failure will have no effect on Blizzard's plan.
If Gretech succeed, KeSPA will crumble and Pro-players will have to follow. If not, Blizzard will have a "truce" with KeSPA, and push out SC2 with all its Pro-players and leagues again. Will e-sports die, highly unlikely. Companies will look at it and go, "OK, it has cracks. How can I profit from it?"
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The reason BW became so epic is because of the huge following it gathered. There were villains, cheaters, tyrants, dreamers, revolutionists, terrorists, and it was so much fun to follow. I'm sure Kespa was a lousy host, but it wasn't that bad in the end.
Blizzard wants to create something like this on their own, but at the same time they don't want the fans to be part of it. Making their scene only available for people that pay up and killing MSL/PL means they have a grand scheme for how things are going to unfold. Maybe this is all a publicity stunt to earn GSL some recognition (albeit bad). I hope they fail and go back to working on WoW so the fans can take over SC2
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I finally had the time to read this
Thanks a lot, Milkis, for putting these thoughts into words. It is highly appreciated!
I'm really hoping for a better future for eSports - right now these money companies are threatening to kill it completely - outside South Korea at least.
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There was a huge hope about GOM's GSL, huge hype around it, huge expectations. It was the same for SC2 and Blizzard with its reputation of making great things for gamers.
But now...
It all just bleaks. There is just too much disappointment.
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To me it seems that Blizzard have these amazingly talented game creaters, designers, coders, artists and everthing else that makes a core game.
Then there are the new employees, hired or forced in by activition/investors, that wants to make sure the game creates as much money as possible right here and now.
So they are forcing all these things down on the actual game creaters, like the approach "lets make this unit that seems cool, and then we have to balance around it" instead of actually thinking in the big picture first.
And even though all these things were forced down on Blizzards core game creater talent, they still made an amazing game. Thankfully, talent just can't be held down.
But, talent always go where there is the most freedom to develop and cater to that talent, so if the decision-makers at Blizzard keeps forcing things down on the actual game creaters I think Blizzard will slowly lose them, and eventually won't make good games anymore.
+ Show Spoiler +It keep thinking about these game creaters with so much sympathy. I like to think they think about the game as an artist think of his album/book/song/painting they made as good as they could. And it actually turned out really really well even though so many things and outside forces tried to mess with it and they had to follow all these strange rules and orders. And now everything that relates to it is just getting raped and messed with and there is nothing they can do than watch their creation getting a worse and worse reputation. So sad really.
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Look, we live in a capitalist society where companies' role is seen as "make as much money as possible." There's no room for doing things "for the fans" in such a society. That's all there is to it.
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Nice read Milkis.
On September 03 2010 08:04 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 07:43 Lysis wrote:
In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit. Are you serious? If SC2 doesnt get big in Korea, the game will die. Do you think any other country in the world gives a shit about e-sports? Personally, I will only accept SC2 as BW successor if the Koreans start dominating it and a pro scene is created over there. If that doesnt happen, I feel like SC2 is lacking something.
SC2 being big in Korea doesn't guarantee anything about the future of e-sports elsewhere.Of course, it will improve the situation, but no money/skill is gonna magically appear in the West because Korea picked it up. Anyway, no matter the situation in Korea we will never see a pro gaming scene like you have in Korea anywhere else. It will be the same as e-Sports has always been, but getting slightly more popular (as we can see with the game now).
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Look, we live in a capitalist society where companies' role is seen as "make as much money as possible." There's no room for doing things "for the fans" in such a society. That's all there is to it.
"for the fans" means making a sustainable sport.
More fans translates into more sales for sponsors.
I wonder how the GSL sponsors feel about the lack of a free stream.
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On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people?
Lolwut? What sport do you have to pay to watch on the internet/TV?
I could watch the whole world cup on the internet or TV.
I could watch all of the olympics on the internet or TV.
I can watch my local basketball/football/baseball team all on TV.
I can watch BW on the internet.
They're ALL free. Why should I suddenly have to pay for GOM?
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Don't you have to pay for any TV channels in the US?
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dont say the E word, blizzard will sue you for sure
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Great read Milkis. It's a great shame that people's greed is getting in the way of our enjoyment of something we love but I guess that's the way things have always been and will always be.
On September 04 2010 00:17 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people? Lolwut? What sport do you have to pay to watch on the internet/TV? I could watch the whole world cup on the internet or TV. I could watch all of the olympics on the internet or TV. I can watch my local basketball/football/baseball team all on TV. I can watch BW on the internet. They're ALL free. Why should I suddenly have to pay for GOM?
In England, you can only see highlights of football league games on terrestrial TV (which you still need a paid TV license for, so even that isn't free). If you want to watch the games live in your own home you have to pay.
You have to pay for GOM because they own the broadcasting rights. It's not our right as fans to see the games streamed for free.
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What sport do you have to pay to watch on the internet/TV?
MMA/UFC are usually pay-per-view.
I agree that GOM has a right to charge for their stream.
But I think its a really backwards way to start a league.
(particularly one thats gonna be spammed with sponsor-tizement)
There are plenty of free daily tournaments of similar quality.
And until the GSL can prove itself a step above the rest its a really hard sell.
IMO the only thing going for the GSL is tasteless, and he's good, but not 50$/month good.
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On September 03 2010 11:49 supernovamaniac wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 09:05 Wolfpox wrote:
endless demands and are never satisfied? Which resulted in good patches, only resulting new players screaming imba. And yes I have paid for the game in the past. In fact, many of us did. The reason why some of us have pirated copies is because we have lost our CD during the 10 years in the middle (I used no CD-Key patch with Hanbitsoft's Korean SC Patch). And don't even argue about the registration online with bnet registration; it never existed until recently.
...
In the dark times when my mother supported my sister in stealing CDs of my games I became proud owner of 2 Brood War CDs... when I hid the 1st one so well I couldn't find it.
I wonder where is the other vanilla SC CD though.
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On September 04 2010 00:17 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people? Lolwut? What sport do you have to pay to watch on the internet/TV? I could watch the whole world cup on the internet or TV. I could watch all of the olympics on the internet or TV. I can watch my local basketball/football/baseball team all on TV. I can watch BW on the internet. They're ALL free. Why should I suddenly have to pay for GOM?
You don't pay a cable bill?
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On September 04 2010 00:17 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people? Lolwut? What sport do you have to pay to watch on the internet/TV? I could watch the whole world cup on the internet or TV. I could watch all of the olympics on the internet or TV. I can watch my local basketball/football/baseball team all on TV. I can watch BW on the internet. They're ALL free. Why should I suddenly have to pay for GOM?
lucky you, i have to pay extra per month to get the sports channels to watch "some" NBA games (cause sometimes there's like 8+ per night).
an alternative, i can get leaguepass to watch it on the internet, which costs money.
i can try to watch free live streams on the internet through "other" means, but the quality is not ideal, and the fact that the accounts get shut down quite fast tells me what they're doing isn't exactly legal/follow the rules.
even though GOM said they'd provide free streaming,
there's no reason why BW/SC2 can't start charging money if they turn out to be enjoyable to watch. if OGN and MBC decided to force shut all streams, and force you to watch through subscribing to their channels, or had to pay to watch online, i would definitely pay (a fair amount).
if progamers like Flash, Stork, Bisu, Jaedong ever switch over to SC2, and proteams are established with proleague seasons and playoffs, same thing, i'd definitely pay if i had to to watch them play.
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Something I've been thinking ever since Blizzard said that they want to develop e-$port 2.0. Why don't they create/sponsor a team directly?
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On September 04 2010 01:10 vx70GTOJudgexv wrote:Show nested quote +On September 04 2010 00:17 ghrur wrote:On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people? Lolwut? What sport do you have to pay to watch on the internet/TV? I could watch the whole world cup on the internet or TV. I could watch all of the olympics on the internet or TV. I can watch my local basketball/football/baseball team all on TV. I can watch BW on the internet. They're ALL free. Why should I suddenly have to pay for GOM? You don't pay a cable bill?
No, I don't. The local stations usually run baseball/football/baseball games on TV.
World Cup was on TV and free on internet.
Olympics was on TV.
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5003 Posts
I hope the "It's their time to fry" was intended and they're cooking something, and not a typo of "It's their time to fly" -_-
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Hong Kong20321 Posts
^ LOL i thought it was a real mistake. ahahha
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On September 04 2010 01:58 Milkis wrote:
I hope the "It's their time to fry" was intended and they're cooking something, and not a typo of "It's their time to fly" -_-
I think they made that typo in the original GSL banner.
edit:
Doh, it should be "Their Turn To Fry"
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I don't know why anyone would support Blizzard/Gretech at this point. You may not want to support KeSPA either, and Blizzard may be on their right to milk their game as much as humanly possible, but that doesn't make their decisions less shitty. The world is moved by money and greed and bla bla bla, but that doesn't mean you gotta follow that mold just because everyone else does. Blizzard already makes truckloads of money without needing to resort to all this BS.
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About OP... kespa point of view on negotiations seems fishy - the only way for gretech to be swarmed with viewers is to get BW fans? Less then 2% of Koreans watched BW on the tv like 2 years ago (I can't find the thread about this I remember reading on TL :/ ), assuming this post is correct less people play BW than W3.
edit: In other words: hundreds of thousands(?) of BW fans and viewers being mere few percent when compared what entire nation watches and plays shows true potential of SC2 as a game with possibly nearly separate fanbase?
I'd say with this prize pool they are aiming at getting more new viewers, not just the BW ones.
I don't think many casual BW viewers will get over lack of insanely powerful spells, scarabs and mines.
You know, about BN2.0 I remembered reading a post Blizzard is looking for a new team and looks like they are?
This gives me hope... on the other hand lack of features may be intentional hole to be filled in expansions, they need content for them
And I have to say this part doesn't make sense to me:
Do you want e-Sports? I don't care if you're being underpaid and tired. That's how e-Sports began in Korea. Does Gretech really believe that they can get away with building e-Sports without sacrifices, sweat and toil of many, many people? That's why e-Sports grew -- they did it for the fans. The progamers who built the BW scene? They lived in cramped apartments, eating ramen and instant foods. You wanna bitch about progamer conditions now? If you start digging around the old BW threads, you can find threads about players finally being sponsored and getting to move into a "luxury apartment". Those are the conditions. You're underpaid and want compensation? Don't expect e-Sports to grow.
Their philosophy is also absolutely and utterly laughable. yes, let's make all progamers "prize hunters" again. Let's just move back to those days where progamers live in tiny apartments. The team that wins first and second place? Great for them, they can eat this month. The rest? Well, you're fucked, time to boil that ramen again. Let's bring all that uncertainty back.
I don't know if you are mixing SC2 and BW progamers, trying to be sarcastic or just contradict yourself. SC2 progamers should start from a complete zero (what's the point? if SC2 is not worth it will die anyways) and then you say it's bad there won't be established teams already and just tournament prizes?
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5003 Posts
I don't know if you are mixing SC2 and BW progamers, trying to be sarcastic or just contradict yourself. SC2 progamers should start from a complete zero (what's the point? if SC2 is not worth it will day anyways) and then you say it's bad there won't be established teams already and just tournament prizes?
No, I'm saying that they should start from where BW left off, not start all over again.
Also people dont play W3, they play DOTA haha
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Well if BW teams won't make SC2 divisions then new teams will be needed and those have to form somehow...
+ Show Spoiler +
Also I made a typo it's die not day TT
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Less then 2% of Koreans watched BW on the tv like 2 years ago
Sounds like a mistranslation of "Koreans watch BW 2% less than 2 years ago".
Gretech is starting over from square one when they shouldn't be.
If all the participants aren't making a living then it isn't professional e-sports.
I think charging fans for e-sports is a sub-par strategy when willing sponsors exist.
(and having sponsors and still charging fans seems pretty wtf)
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On September 03 2010 12:23 Madkipz wrote:and ? your suggestion lacks purpose and an alternative so sc2.
Like the OP stated, Gretech is a tool of Blizzard and is doing this on purpose. It does NOT want the SC:BW pro scene to survive at all, because that means Blizzard just wasted hundreds of millions of dollars on making SC2.
I refuse to be part of a brainwashed puppet of Blizzard.
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Blizzard needs to accept that all the hype SC2 got was mainly due to the SCBW's dominance in Korean eSports scene.
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Maybe it would help if they actually made Battlenet 2.0 more flexible and helpful to finding games, and building connections so you can have practice partners, like the hundreds of aspiring amateurs. But nope. Let's fragment the user bases by forcing people to buy multiple copies. Let's not have chat channels (oh wait, they're patching it on like it's some new feature. nice job there lololol). Maybe make Battlenet 2.0... eSports friendly. Then again, I don't even know.
/facepalm
Yes, no chat channels and a silo'd user base are annoying. But on the list of things bnet2 could do to help esports? They aren't top 5 and may not be top 10.
How about built in tournaments that are constantly running where players at any skill level can compete? (Ladder grinding was okay... in the 90's)
How about watching replays with other people?
How about a matchmaking service designed for practice games (I'm T, match me with a P of equal skill level).
How about 99 challenge modes instead of 9 that help players improve basics, and add new challenge modes as the meta game changes.
How about requiring every Blizzard approved tournament release all replays within 7 days?
How about having a pro-division where all replays are public?
How about having pro-division tournaments with anonymous spectators.
Seriously guys, I know its tempting to throw in complaints about bnet2 in every rant. But don't be lazy about it. Expand on the group-think.
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I agree. Both sides in this "e-sports War" have many legitimate reasons to be pissed off at each other; and because of this, both sides are determined to undermine or destroy the other. It almost doesn't matter who's in the right here, or even who wins the war; because, one way or the other, it's the fans that are gonna be the real losers.
The collateral damage that this conflict is already having is unbelievable. Neither side seems to care enough about the effect their childish power games are having on the e-sports scene, and on its fans, to make some kind of compromise.
Because, really, there's no reason in the world why there can't be a compromise. There's no reason in the world why SC2 and BW can't co-exist in Korea. After all, why the kark wouldn't the OGN people want to run SC2 in addition to their own leagues if it would draw viewers (which it would, eventually)? Why wouldn't pro-teams want to have some b-teamers play SC2 if they can win big bucks in the GSL as opposed to warming the bench and earning the team nothing?
Basically, it's pretty much just Gom and especially Kespa who are pissed off at each other, and unwilling to let that happen. And the reason for that is money, person grudges, and power.
And frankly, that's sad. Because the fans deserve better...
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One of the issues is that in the history if eSports, players have facilitated competition. They've done so by organizing leagues, teams/practice squads, developing "pro mods" or other generally accepted competitive rulesets, etc. Developers made a great game, players would take the multiplayer aspects of that game to another level by creating a competitive community around it.
That dynamic has shifted. Obviously there is still tons of player organized competition. A ton of players who are either new to eSports, or have quickly forgotten the roots, are now expecting the developers to worry about doing a lot of this work for them. The developer's responsibility is to sell copies of the game. That means creating a stellar single player campaign, then adding multiplayer features, then offering support to make sure the game remains playable. The developer's responsibility is NOT to facilitate competition and an eSports community around their game. As arrogant as we would like to be, competitive gamers make up a small portion of the market share for any game genre, thus the developers make the casual fan (who are, large in part, paying the bills) a priority.
Be thankful that Blizzard, like very few game developers, offer us ANY support and communicate with the eSports community at all.
Fantomex (above) has a laundry list of complaints and then says "I know it's tempting to throw in complaints..." (which he does at length), "but don't be lazy about it." Don't be lazy? The current eSports community is significantly more lazy than those who laid the foundation before us. If you see something that is a problem, FIND A WAY TO FIX IT.
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I agree with your opinion Milkis. The thing about Gretech right now is that they are so bent on making money that they only think about the short-term means of making money. This short-sightedness will eventually come to kick them hard if they don't straighten out and think about the long-term.
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I just honestly think we're expecting a bit too much for a game that's just over a month old. The announcement of the GSL was great and all, it seemed like a great sign for e-sports. But part of me felt that such a seemingly big investment was slightly premature as the game is still just getting off its feet.
I just feel that it will take time. I'm going to work on my Protoss gameplay for now instead of worrying about the direction of e-sports.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On September 03 2010 11:09 gyth wrote:Show nested quote +Sorry to break it to you, but unless you don't give a fuck about eSports in general, it won't develop in the US unless it happens in Korea first. Why? Culture issues. Ideas about gamers. Money. The devotion of the gamers. They're devoted to a different game. I think it would be easier for an international league to find sponsors than force Korea to switch to SC2.
Are you talking about Koreans being devoted to SC1?
And Blizzard/GOM are even destroying that.
And if you're talking about foreigners,
Exactly why SC2 eSports won't survive outside of Korea.
Other games are too established, and even if some big company decides to sponsor it then it'd be hard for it to find publicity imo. People won't care because they're too busy with their own little games on their XBoxs and PS3s and Wiis and whatnot.
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Are you talking about Koreans being devoted to SC1?
Yes
Exactly why SC2 eSports won't survive outside of Korea.
Other games are too established, and even if some big company decides to sponsor it then it'd be hard for it to find publicity imo.
I don't see other games being well established anywhere EXCEPT Korea.
This site did a rapid embracing of SC2.
SC2 was welcomed at several "major" esports events.
And while they're not as big as BW in Korea, I think they represent a real possibility for the continued development of esports.
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3 Lions
United States3705 Posts
On September 04 2010 07:36 gyth wrote:Yes Show nested quote +Exactly why SC2 eSports won't survive outside of Korea.
Other games are too established, and even if some big company decides to sponsor it then it'd be hard for it to find publicity imo. I don't see other games being well established anywhere EXCEPT Korea. This site did a rapid embracing of SC2. SC2 was welcomed at several "major" esports events. And while they're not as big as BW in Korea, I think they represent a real possibility for the continued development of esports.
I agree that while the major tournaments that have happened so far are very encouraging, I am just doubting the development of SC2 as an eSport internationally to the level of what BW was in Korea because of the issues mentioned in the article.
And while it may not be necessary for SC2 to develop to such a huge level, it will be sad as there will be no longer any Starcraft at such a large scale if the recent developments in the degradation of the Brood War scene continue.
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heh funny in more ways than one
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don't have a real idea how a lot of this stuff works... pls feel free to bash so we can get a discussion going...
how much of the problem could be rooted from how these companies cannot extract enough money from the fans? everybody is selfish because they need to be.
is their system screwed up in a way that a sport cannot be organized from scbw in a way that is profitable for all involved parties? or is there no way the fans would possibly pay enough money to truly make scbw a [profitable] spectator sport [for the "organizers"]?
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or is there no way the fans would possibly pay enough money to truly make scbw a [profitable] spectator sport [for the "organizers"]?
I think it depends what you mean by profitable.
Under the current scheme (as I understand it) noone was directly collecting money from fans.
Operating costs/prize pool are paid by the sponsor and hopefully that is a positive use of advertising dollars.
Gretech has shifted the money issue directly onto the fans in addition to the indirect advertising.
I'm not sure if this shift is just due to skyrocketing operating costs (thanks blizzard?) or whether gretech is just trying to make more money.
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when companies start making money, they just can't stop T.T
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Also people dont play W3, they play DOTA haha
WC3 is easily more popular than SC in every part of the world except South Korea.
; )))))
I don't really enjoy SC2, it's too much like SC1. I hope everything goes to hell and that we'll have Warcraft 4 within a few years XDDDDD!
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+ Show Spoiler +On September 04 2010 10:18 gyth wrote:Show nested quote +or is there no way the fans would possibly pay enough money to truly make scbw a [profitable] spectator sport [for the "organizers"]? I think it depends what you mean by profitable. Under the current scheme (as I understand it) noone was directly collecting money from fans. Operating costs/prize pool are paid by the sponsor and hopefully that is a positive use of advertising dollars. Gretech has shifted the money issue directly onto the fans in addition to the indirect advertising. I'm not sure if this shift is just due to skyrocketing operating costs (thanks blizzard?) or whether gretech is just trying to make more money.
maybe that's the right move. ultimately the fans fuel everything.
a lot of people here feel powerless but that shouldn't be entirely true. these companies know that there is something here. question is whether they can make it profitable enough. there are a lot of fans. but will these fans bring in cash?
what i'm trying to say is that the success of all this, i feel, depends on the fans. even if all these companies are actually making a mistake, which is debatable, if there really is a lot of support (financial/profitable/cash-generating support) from the fans, eventually someone would eventually be able to tap that market and make big $$$. then we'll have our e-sport.
if that is not the case, then... we'll be lucky if things stay as they are..
but again, it depends on the fans... we shouldn't be blaming the money-grubbing companies so much
btw, profitable not just meaning you get more money than you put out. it has to be "worthwhile" profitable. otherwise, they'll put their money to good use elsewhere.
+ Show Spoiler +On September 04 2010 10:37 TheTeamLiquidTiger wrote:
when companies start making money, they just can't stop T.T
well, can we really blame them?
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On September 04 2010 11:13 Starshaped wrote:WC3 is easily more popular than SC in every part of the world except South Korea. ; ))))) I don't really enjoy SC2, it's too much like SC1. I hope everything goes to hell and that we'll have Warcraft 4 within a few years XDDDDD!
Only in China and Europe. Others its about half half. But then WC3's scene is crap compared to BW's scene due to Korea's huge sponsors and all.
But I would have to mostly agree with milkis. In my opinion, blizzard made a terrible move by making it much much harder to get sponsorship. I mean come on, the MSL recently had trouble finding a sponsor and now you're making it much much harder to get sponsorship? What are you thinking!!! All Blizzard cares is about the revenue. Blizzard is trying to force SC2 into the community, which will not work. BW scene developed very very slowly with many hardships on the way. Blizzard is just using BW's name to try and get SC2's proscene up and running. They are making a huge mistake here and I hope they back out sooner or later.
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I hope you all realize companies will do what brings them the most money. Blizzard won't do a single thing for the fans if it means less profit. Likewise, if acting like the hero of e-sports earns the dough, that's what they'll do. Blizzard isn't you best friend.
It's sad, though, since any game can become an e-sport if it's good enough, it doesn't need to be planned that way (SC1, WC3 etc.) and I'm sure SC2 would have done just fine without the emphasis of e-sport and without all the conflict, but Blizzard's wallet calls the shots and that will always hold true.
Just play the game if you like it and follow the scene if it exists and is entertaining. Time will tell if SC2 has lasting power or not, above and beyond anything Blizzard has to say. Remember there are still two expansions to go and potential years of perfecting the game. Personally, I think there is way too much hype surrounding the game and the player-base will shrink dramatically fairly soon. But we'll see...
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Likewise, if acting like the hero of e-sports earns the dough, that's what they'll do.
Corporate altruism may be dead, but they need to put more effort into pretending to not be evil.
First they came for Kespa,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't Korean.
Then they came for ICCup,
and I didn't speak up because I wasn't playing BW.
Then they came for TeamLiquid,
and by that time no one was left to speak up.
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On September 03 2010 15:37 Dox wrote:
From a strictly Australian point of view, it would appear that some of the issues in this thread are pretty heavily overexaggerated. In the one month SC2 has been out, it has already generated more tournament money in Australia (and possibly SEA) than WarCraft 3 did in it's entire lifespan. And I dare say the same for Brood War.
In a single month since the release of SC2, we've seen sponsors sweeping up massive events like IEM and MGL. It's a brand new game and money is pouring out all over the place. Whilst I expected a hesitant and staggered introduction to the eSports scene for SC2, it really feels like the game has hit the ground running. I can certainly say my expectations were never this high, and so far the combined sponsors/communities and players have delivered something that feels naturally high-calibre.
Now of course, you'd have to be naive to expect no upsets along the way. I personally didn't even think we'd be at THIS point for at least another year. It's a new game with lots of new players and communities. There's issues right now, and there probably will be a long time from now. But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle.
Amen to that. I think even if SC2 flops in korea it will definatly have potentinal as an E-sport.
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why does everyone think that a tourney with huge prize money equates to esports? BW is an esport in korea because casuals watch it. they follow it because there are teams and players they like.
GSL offering $150k as prizes will make the game attractive to players, but what if the top players are always being replaced by upcomers in the next tournament. faces change all the time, do you really believe casuals will follow it the way they did with BW in korea without the teams?
SC2 becoming big != esports
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>capitalists are more concerned with making money than good games
>op is surprised
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On September 04 2010 16:35 Bswhunter wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:37 Dox wrote:
From a strictly Australian point of view, it would appear that some of the issues in this thread are pretty heavily overexaggerated. In the one month SC2 has been out, it has already generated more tournament money in Australia (and possibly SEA) than WarCraft 3 did in it's entire lifespan. And I dare say the same for Brood War.
In a single month since the release of SC2, we've seen sponsors sweeping up massive events like IEM and MGL. It's a brand new game and money is pouring out all over the place. Whilst I expected a hesitant and staggered introduction to the eSports scene for SC2, it really feels like the game has hit the ground running. I can certainly say my expectations were never this high, and so far the combined sponsors/communities and players have delivered something that feels naturally high-calibre.
Now of course, you'd have to be naive to expect no upsets along the way. I personally didn't even think we'd be at THIS point for at least another year. It's a new game with lots of new players and communities. There's issues right now, and there probably will be a long time from now. But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle. Amen to that. I think even if SC2 flops in korea it will definatly have potentinal as an E-sport.
lol what? Thats like saying if the NFL dies off in America it will become huge globally. Sorry but it doesnt work that way and Blizzard understands that better than anyone else. I'm about 100% sure Blizzard doesnt give a fuck about how successful their game is in Australia when nobody in SK is playing it.
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I think Blizzard is too use to the MMO model. With an MMO, you roll it out early before it is complete and continue to patch it. MMOs have separate realms but it is not a big deal, because it isn't competitive. Blizzard did not give us a finished game and they think that is okay.
However, this type of thinking about yourself before the fans is becoming very commonplace. I study sport and I continue to see that with leagues like the NFL and the MLB making decisions that completely screw the fans. The leagues continue to price out the fans and have empty stadiums. However, as long as one or two franchises are doing well, everyone makes money.
I think this is typical corporate America bullshit. The corporations could care less about the peons of society. Just give them your money.
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Oh man, the amount of whining here is sad.
The game isn't complete, and that's okay...
There are still 2 expansions to come and I'm sure by that stage there will be enough versatility to create a game that while different to bw, will be as ageless as it.
Blizzard have never said this game will be perfect out of the gate, in fact they have Constantly said the exact opposite, that they are committed to making the game better, but it wont happen straight away... They have said this countless times, but I don't know if people don't want to listen, or if they are just stupid. People are still expecting the quality of a game that has been released and patched for 3-4 years.
Yes, it will take that long. And in that time, korea might be a non-issue in the land of e-sports, things like MLG, WCG, ESL might start to be seriously noted by the main-stream in the west. I'm not saying it Will happen, but it might. Hell, Blizzard might even cancel their deal with Gretech by then...
Anyway, @ the OP... You seem to be stuck in a BW world. Players can find sponsors like they do for all the other games that aren't BW. Gamers will be prize-hunters, for the forseeable future, in the west. That is the way it is with almost every other game...
You say yourself this shouldn't be the successor to brood war. And it's not, I genuinely believe they aren't trying to be either. And if you don't want it to be you need to get your head out of this "the way s.korea have done it with BW is the only way it can possibly done and be successful" mentality.
The bottom line simply is the BW scene you have all come to love has been illegal. Blizzard have a right to do something about it, regardless of how much you all feel entitled to what has been "provided" (stolen from blizzard.) And if companies don't want to pay due licenses, then Brood War will die. It has absolutely nothing to do with Starcraft 2.
Other than of course if they allow people to televise bw without paying a licensing fee, they will have much less of a legal leg to stand on trying to prevent people doing the same with sc2.
That's just the way I see it anyways.
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The team that wins first and second place? Great for them, they can eat this month. The rest? Well, you're fucked, time to boil that ramen again.
wow great post. Im so excited to see what happen with SC:BW and SC2
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On September 03 2010 08:04 fabiano wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 07:43 Lysis wrote:
In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit. Are you serious? If SC2 doesnt get big in Korea, the game will die. Do you think any other country in the world gives a shit about e-sports? Personally, I will only accept SC2 as BW successor if the Koreans start dominating it and a pro scene is created over there. If that doesnt happen, I feel like SC2 is lacking something.
this is a very short sighted attitude. E-sports and SC2 do NOT need Korea to survive. In fact if it all goes to hell in Korea it might actually be good for the rest of the world. I'm not wishing for it to fail in Korea and I'd love to see Jaedong try and make Zerg work in SC2 as much as the next guy, but there is always a silver lining.
We're already seeing a bigger E-sport scene outside Korea than BW did. Is it going to be as good as Korean BW overnight? Ofcourse not! It'll take a few years before gamers are as skilled and are getting paid as good of a salary as Korean BW players are, but it will happen. BW didn't happpen overnight in Korea either.
Nobody can argue with the frantic pace at which these big sponsored tournaments are being set up. Feels like i have some big tourney to watch twice a week any more. E-sports is finally happening outside Korea and all i can say is "hell, it's about time."
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On September 06 2010 05:45 Antpile wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 08:04 fabiano wrote:On September 03 2010 07:43 Lysis wrote:
In my opinion: fuck Korea, I couldn't care less about what goes on over there, since it doesn't affect me one bit. Are you serious? If SC2 doesnt get big in Korea, the game will die. Do you think any other country in the world gives a shit about e-sports? Personally, I will only accept SC2 as BW successor if the Koreans start dominating it and a pro scene is created over there. If that doesnt happen, I feel like SC2 is lacking something. this is a very short sighted attitude. E-sports and SC2 do NOT need Korea to survive. In fact if it all goes to hell in Korea it might actually be good for the rest of the world. I'm not wishing for it to fail in Korea and I'd love to see Jaedong try and make Zerg work in SC2 as much as the next guy, but there is always a silver lining. We're already seeing a bigger E-sport scene outside Korea than BW did. Is it going to be as good as Korean BW overnight? Ofcourse not! It'll take a few years before gamers are as skilled and are getting paid as good of a salary as Korean BW players are, but it will happen. BW didn't happpen overnight in Korea either. Nobody can argue with the frantic pace at which these big sponsored tournaments are being set up. Feels like i have some big tourney to watch twice a week any more. E-sports is finally happening outside Korea and all i can say is "hell, it's about time."
I don't think you know what you are talking about. Here's a simple list format for you
1. SC2 starts becoming bigger
2. Broodwar/progaming die off in korea
3. Companies realize "oh hey, korean progaming was bigger than anything we ever had and it STILL died off the moment a new game came out."
4. All investors use korea as a model of how e-sports simple cannot be stable
5. e-sports dies out period.
Why does everyone think if the original fails, the successors will do well?
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i ate an sc2 lotteria meal the other day, had a good lol @ it.
what do they think gamers diets are like? xD
very good read though
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On September 03 2010 16:02 TheAntZ wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:37 Dox wrote:But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle. What the fuck kind of twisted failure of logic allows you to think like this? SC2 only has this esports scene BECAUSE it is riding on the hype of sc1 and wc3.
You missed the very first sentence of the post that said "from a strictly Australian point of view." Thank you for the unnecessarily aggressive response though.
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totally agree with you. they only care about who gets to get the bigger piece of the profit.
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On September 03 2010 08:00 Plexa wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 07:53 moopie wrote:On September 03 2010 07:42 Saracen wrote:
Great rant. I really, really try to find evidence that Blizzard cares about eSports. But it seems that every single decision they make is just one huge fuckup after another in that department.
Viewable match history? The ladder maps are a joke. The balance is a joke. How about implementing a decent map system? How about allowing users to contribute a decent map pool? Paying to watch a tournament? No one paid to watch Brood War. No one paid to watch the World Cup. What dumbass is going to pay to watch a SC2 tournament on imbalanced maps with imbalanced races? B.net is still a joke. Every day, Blizzard seems more and more like a bunch of foreign corporate suits flocking in to seize control of a dying industry, but totally disregarding its history, integrity, and pride. Like, one day, maybe in '07, some Blizzard guys were like "omg look, SC is doing so well in Korea, we gotta get on that shit." And then they brute-force their way into the industry while madly waving the bullshit "eSports" flag to the public. That's pretty much it, yeah. Bnet 0.2 No LAN Segregated realms No chatrooms for release Attempting to squeeze out the BW scene to make room for SC2 Pay-only streams for GSL It really is just trying to destroy the competition so you can push an inferior product out to the masses with the biggest profit margin possible. The sad thing is if they tried it the traditional way, didn't try to control and squeeze KeSPA out with those ridiculous demands and instead cooperated with the already existing esport scene in Korea, balanced or not, the bigger teams (SKT, KT, STX) would surely have added SC2 teams and OGN/MBCGame would give airtime to a SC2 proleague. For all their talk of esports and wanting this to go global (while being in the driver seat like they are trying to be), Blizzard hasn't once (in over 10 years) tried to set up anything in the US or Europe. Too much effort, time and risk. They just saw what Korea had and wanted a piece of it. Even if they get their way and kill off BW though, the Korean fans will hate them and I can't see the current sponsors showing too much appreciation either. By shitting on KeSPA they are shitting on some of Korea's biggest corporations (who hopefully won't scab later). I really hope this comes back to bite them in the ass -_- [/rant] The thing which annoys me more than anything else is that SC2 is such an amazing game that if they had just gone for a hands off approach then SC2 would have thrived and developed EXACTLY like they are trying to force it to right now.
Exactly. The developers (and the community as well) poured their heart and soul into making SC2 the best game it could be. And if it was allowed to naturally develop as Esports had been I truely believe it would have been much better for all parties.
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On September 03 2010 08:05 tree.hugger wrote:
In our earnestness to embrace Sc2, and Blizzard's earnestness to sell it, we've lost sight as a community of what got us here in the first place. Sc2 should never have been viewed as a successor to BW, rather as an independent, related game that can and deserves to co-exist peacefully with it's older brother.
Now, I'd love it personally if there were less similarities between the games to drive home that point, but it doesn't really matter too much, I think the games are different enough to make watching both interesting; somewhat like Mens and Womens tennis, or college and pro football in the US.
I think what Blizzard doesn't understand, and what the community is just waking up to understanding, is that if BW is killed or forced to die a premature death, then Sc2 simply won't survive, at the very least because of the ill-will and fragmentation of the community caused by the break-up. BW is still growing, and Sc2 is exploding as one might expect, and the games can only grow in tandem with each other. BW had to fight extremely hard to gain attention and respect, and if it's shuttled out after ten years, then the consequences for the community and for the industry are obvious. No kid will want to become a pro in a game with only a four, three, two year lifespan. No business person will want to help grow that business. And this can only happen in Korea, and possibly China, but who knows? If esports loses it's foothold in korea, then it's the end not only for BW, but for Sc2, and maybe a disastrous blow to the WCG as well. The GSL is great and everything, but GOM is forgetting a crucial lesson of Tv programming; if you want a new show to take off, put it after a similar popular show. Similarly, GSL coming on after proleague would be an awesome way to integrate a BW audience to Sc2. These people aren't programmed to turn on their tv's at exactly 13:00 KST on Fridays. If proleague isn't on, they won't tune in. BW and Sc2 must compliment each other. Instead, because of a cohort of idiots, they're poised to kill each other.
A house divided against itself cannot stand. These games must grow and work in tandem. These games are brothers, not father and son. The new posters on these forums should know this. It's time Sc2 began caring about what happened with BW, and the BW fans began to care about Sc2, not necessarily as games, but as industries.
Original Post and you are both on to something. Indeed you ARE onto something. Cheers for opening my eyes alittle to the E-Sports scene. Looks like it's being run by corporate greedy fuckballs when it SHOULD be run by the fans. Hm... I have a feeling this is not going to end well. For the fans or the games
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After watching the GSL on a restream tonight I just can't see SC2 tournaments like we are used to with BW surviving past the end of the year.
Compared to the OSL and even the MSL the production values were just awful, it all just seemed really amatuerish. Constant audio problems. I was treated to ~2 mins of silence followed by ads blasting over Tasteless/Artosis trying to talk about the upcoming match. Follow that up with some good old "technical issues" (aka battle.net 2.0) causing delays in the matches was just an amazingly bad experience.
Tasteless and Artosis were doing a good job but I stopped watching after a few games because I was just plain bored. The love is just not there. The game still has glaring issues in terms of spectator enjoyment (PvP is the worst culprit, followed by mass flying units obscuring everything).
I even thought that maybe it would be better in Korean. I tried some GSL VODs but they still haven't got rid of that annoying screaching female commentator and there were still annoying production issues. The problem is that there are so many people involved that just don't care. It's the money that matters now. No one cares that some random images flashed up on screen have the wrong aspect ratio or that there is a massive "WIN" graphic over the screen before the game has even ended.
The funny thing is I was going to buy the HQ stream because I actually think the price is reasonable. I am really glad I didn't. Thank god the GOMTV signup form refused to accept my email address.
Does Blizzard/Gretech really expect people (think non gamers and the public in general) to take SC2 seriously when I can find more smoothly run broadcasts on local community TV?
The worst part about it all is there is no sign of improvement on the issues that will cause SC2 to fail as an E-SPORT. The biggest problems in my opinion are:
- How unfriendly the game is to a spectator in terms of audio and visuals.
- How boring most of the units are currently.
- How awful battle.net 2.0 is and how split up the community is because of region lock.
- Destroying the existing infrastructure that has been built up around BW because it apparently threatens SC2's marketshare.
People stuck in the world of balance changes and "I don't care about Korea because SC2 is going to be a GLOBAL E-SPORT" are just delusional. I would love to see an Australian Starleague but who is going to watch it? If you can't get the viewers you don't get the sponsors. If you don't get the sponsors you don't get the money to organize it. Korea is the only country in the world that has developed a sustainable infrastructure around E-SPORTS. Balance is a minor issue compared to everything else.
Like others have said. If Blizzard kills Brood War that means that the infrastructure is in fact not sustainable which will ensure that SC2 flops. What company in their right mind will throw their money behind something with so much uncertainty?
I really want SC2 to be a success. As bad as the overall GSL experience was tonight I could see some promise. I could see that there are people that do care. Tasteless and Artosis cared (though Artosis needs to lose the BW killing attitude). The players cared. You could see it on their faces. They weren't there for the promise of making heaps of money. While people still care there is hope.
Blizzard, Gretech and Kespa really need to show us they also care or they will all have played a part in destroying what I think is the best competetive gaming scene in the world.
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5003 Posts
To everyone who keeps saying "you're concentrating too much on Korea" or "from a X country perspective", note that even Blizzard acknowledges Korea is the "E-Sports capital of the world" and recognize how important it is.
Everything can only come after a stable scene in Korea.
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EPT![[image loading]](http://img824.imageshack.us/img824/7827/gslf.jpg)
