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On September 03 2010 14:12 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +It's not about balls, it's about legality. Kespa did a stupid thing selling rights to something they don't own. I think there wouldn't be such a big issue if the rights were never sold. It's obvious Blizzard knew about Pro Starcraft broadcasts and they let them run. When Blizzard learned about the broadcasting rights sale (if you believe what they say, which I'm sure you don't) then they started negotiations and trying to "kill" Proleague. Hi I'm blizzard i care more about my rights over a 10 year old game more so than i care about the entire fan base that got me this reputation as a great game maker EDIT: I'm not really willing to discuss "solutions" because there's literally no point in me talking about potential things Blizzard/Gretech could do. A lot of your points are minor nitpicks that either miss the point or are rather... irrelevant lol. Like I said, it's only a rant, take it as you will, you can disagree and I dont really want to bothered discussing it, or else I'd have made this a more discussion oriented thread. And yeah my tone isn't the best since I tend to be blunt.
A lot of your points are minor nitpicks that either miss the point or are rather... irrelevant lol.
Maybe I should have just posted that in response to your rant? I guess you did state it was a rant, and now you say this isn't really open for discussion so I'll stop.
Beyond the whole rant thing, a lot of your other posts come off the exact same way this one does. It's not just that you're blunt either, which is fine, it's the whole air of all your posts and how you write them, it rubs me the wrong way even when I agree with you.
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What should Gretech do with their big ass tournament prize money instead?
Its a 64 person tourney, give everyone 2k and split the rest up however.
Right now you get 260$ for winning the first match, and half the people get NOTHING???
Thats no way to live.
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I am replying exactly after your disclaimer.... I love it... edit will be after I read
edit:
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Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people?
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5003 Posts
On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people?
Why would you pay for a service that's very, very uncertain?
You pay 20 dollars for MLB Premium. Baseball is very well established, the players are professional, the game has developed enough to the point it's exciting in its own way with professional casters.
SC2 has nothing like that. In fact, I'm almost certain that even if they have paid streams, they can't guarantee a good, stable stream even when paid. Hell, it's not even HQ.
Honestly Gom should just 1) have live stream free, 2) charge 99 cents per VoD. Why? LIve Stream is already on at an inconvenient time anyway, but people will hype it, recommend it, and people looking at that will purchase VoDs. At least that way you know you're only paying for "quality" content.
Or even have this entire season free so that people are more certain of GOM's quality, and then they can charge for it (for a lower price i hope) in the future. Right now there's a lot of uncertainty and helping people confirm GSL's quality will help out a ton.
I don't think people should have to blindly pay for products they're not certain of.
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100% agree with OP. I will be extremely pissed if BW dies, and SC2 remains in its current state, not entertaining and imbalanced. Paying to watch an SC2 tournament is also ridiculous. I'm absolutely fine with SC2 being BW's successor, but BW's successor can't be not fun to watch and have no venues to watch conveniently.
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On September 03 2010 15:16 Milkis wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people? Why would you pay for a service that's very, very uncertain? You pay 20 dollars for MLB Premium. Baseball is very well established, the players are professional, the game has developed enough to the point it's exciting in its own way with professional casters. SC2 has nothing like that. In fact, I'm almost certain that even if they have paid streams, they can't guarantee a good, stable stream even when paid. Hell, it's not even HQ. Honestly Gom should just 1) have live stream free, 2) charge 99 cents per VoD. Why? LIve Stream is already on at an inconvenient time anyway, but people will hype it, recommend it, and people looking at that will purchase VoDs. At least that way you know you're only paying for "quality" content. Or even have this entire season free so that people are more certain of GOM's quality, and then they can charge for it (for a lower price i hope) in the future. Right now there's a lot of uncertainty and helping people confirm GSL's quality will help out a ton. I don't think people should have to blindly pay for products they're not certain of.
But isn't that the same for every party involved? There's no guarantee that StarCraft II will become a success. Why should Gretech invest in a product that's very, very uncertain? Why would KeSPA make concessions for it? Nobody wants to risk losing. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I can't blame people for using the same reasoning I am - I won't purchase GOM's product for the same reason they're not offering it to me free.
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From a strictly Australian point of view, it would appear that some of the issues in this thread are pretty heavily overexaggerated. In the one month SC2 has been out, it has already generated more tournament money in Australia (and possibly SEA) than WarCraft 3 did in it's entire lifespan. And I dare say the same for Brood War.
In a single month since the release of SC2, we've seen sponsors sweeping up massive events like IEM and MGL. It's a brand new game and money is pouring out all over the place. Whilst I expected a hesitant and staggered introduction to the eSports scene for SC2, it really feels like the game has hit the ground running. I can certainly say my expectations were never this high, and so far the combined sponsors/communities and players have delivered something that feels naturally high-calibre.
Now of course, you'd have to be naive to expect no upsets along the way. I personally didn't even think we'd be at THIS point for at least another year. It's a new game with lots of new players and communities. There's issues right now, and there probably will be a long time from now. But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle.
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T.O.P.
Hong Kong4685 Posts
On September 03 2010 15:30 Fanatic-Templar wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:16 Milkis wrote:On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people? Why would you pay for a service that's very, very uncertain? You pay 20 dollars for MLB Premium. Baseball is very well established, the players are professional, the game has developed enough to the point it's exciting in its own way with professional casters. SC2 has nothing like that. In fact, I'm almost certain that even if they have paid streams, they can't guarantee a good, stable stream even when paid. Hell, it's not even HQ. Honestly Gom should just 1) have live stream free, 2) charge 99 cents per VoD. Why? LIve Stream is already on at an inconvenient time anyway, but people will hype it, recommend it, and people looking at that will purchase VoDs. At least that way you know you're only paying for "quality" content. Or even have this entire season free so that people are more certain of GOM's quality, and then they can charge for it (for a lower price i hope) in the future. Right now there's a lot of uncertainty and helping people confirm GSL's quality will help out a ton. I don't think people should have to blindly pay for products they're not certain of. But isn't that the same for every party involved? There's no guarantee that StarCraft II will become a success. Why should Gretech invest in a product that's very, very uncertain? Why would KeSPA make concessions for it? Nobody wants to risk losing. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I can't blame people for using the same reasoning I am - I won't purchase GOM's product for the same reason they're not offering it to me free.
Gretech should be investing money into this for future profit. A successful business doesn't anticipate profit in year 1. Their goal should be expanding the customer base before trying to cash in. Look at Facebook, Godaddy, and Google. They took funding from their investors, use it all, then ask for more money from their investors, before thinking of methods to make money from their customers. That's how you go from small business to big business.
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Yeah, stuff like this definitely makes me sadface.
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On September 03 2010 10:51 Domonic wrote:
Ok first of all, there is no such thing as having a "wrong opinion" because an opinion is just an opinion. That first part bugged me along with some grammatical errors and lack of knowledge made me only read about half of what you said. I just want to say that KeSPA does not run anything, it's only because there are groups like MBC Game and Ongamenet that are continuing to partner with KeSPA is why there still alive, and I also think it's ridiculous that KeSPA thinks they have rights to Starcraft, when in fact, Blizzard owns ALL rights to Starcraft because it's there game and they copyrighted it. Blizzard should have shut down KeSPA when they first started. I can't see them lasting much longer.
Why the fuck would you bother posting when you have no idea what you're talking about?
On September 03 2010 09:05 Wolfpox wrote:
What I find funny is how the original poster (and so many others) you think that fans are entitled to something.
"I've been playing SC1 since the day it came out, and I haven't paid one cent for it! I pirated the game and have been a loyal cheapskate my whole life! Bow down and grovel at my feet, Blizzard! You will die without us!"
Fans love to talk about how loyal and devoted they are, but really, when they are operating WoW and getting millions of dollars a month, what do you think any sane person would value more: paying customers or cheap bastards who just make endless demands and are never satisfied?
Uh what? Everyone who plays SC2 bought SC2, what people are talking about is not paying for GSL streams. Do you even know why esports got as big as it is in korea? One of the major reasons is that it was free to watch for everyone. Do you really fucking think people who never really played much rts or dont play sc2 all that much are gonna pay to watch the GSL stream? No. Not a fucking chance. But if it were free, sure they'd tune in because why the fuck not? I'll watch it, if i like it i'll watch more, if i dont w/e, it was free.
On September 03 2010 15:37 Dox wrote:But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle.
What the fuck kind of twisted failure of logic allows you to think like this? SC2 only has this esports scene BECAUSE it is riding on the hype of sc1 and wc3.
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On September 03 2010 15:37 Dox wrote:
From a strictly Australian point of view, it would appear that some of the issues in this thread are pretty heavily overexaggerated. In the one month SC2 has been out, it has already generated more tournament money in Australia (and possibly SEA) than WarCraft 3 did in it's entire lifespan. And I dare say the same for Brood War.
In a single month since the release of SC2, we've seen sponsors sweeping up massive events like IEM and MGL. It's a brand new game and money is pouring out all over the place. Whilst I expected a hesitant and staggered introduction to the eSports scene for SC2, it really feels like the game has hit the ground running. I can certainly say my expectations were never this high, and so far the combined sponsors/communities and players have delivered something that feels naturally high-calibre.
Now of course, you'd have to be naive to expect no upsets along the way. I personally didn't even think we'd be at THIS point for at least another year. It's a new game with lots of new players and communities. There's issues right now, and there probably will be a long time from now. But compare this to the SC1/WC3 scenes one month after those games were released and well... it's quite the miracle.
No its not. Sc1 is what established e-sports in the first place. SC2 is basically just feeding off of all the hard work put into Broodwar.
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Personally, I think that the rest of the world is being underestimated here, Korea is and will probably always be a big part of esports but I really don't see why people seem to have this idea that if BW dies and Sc2 fails in Korea then esports will just collapse. It will be a pretty huge blow to esports, there's no question about that, but do you really think it will be some sort of apocalypse?
I mean, I love watching BW and just like most people here I would be sad to see the BW esports-scene die out. But I can't help but think that this is the way things have worked in past, just take a look at human history. 2000 years ago the Roman empire was the dominating force in the world that brought us tons and tons of new ideas and inventions that helped society to advance forward. But in the end, like all empires, it died out and new forces started to push society forward instead.
Maybe that's the way to look at Korea and BW, they have brought esports here and now other games and other countries can take over.
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eSports shouldn't have to end because a developer decides it's the case, that's the fundamental problem with developers having any control over the scene other than some royalties... sure the SC2 foreign scene is big now, but for how long? Do you really see it lasting like that for 10 years like the OSL? There's an established industry in Korean for BW, with still plenty of fans/sponsors/teams. The industry has been nothing but beneficial for Blizzard with half of the BW copies being sold in Korea. It's really a big shame if they decide to try and shut it down now, because that will have long-term negative effects on eSports as a whole.
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On September 03 2010 15:39 T.O.P. wrote:Show nested quote +On September 03 2010 15:30 Fanatic-Templar wrote:On September 03 2010 15:16 Milkis wrote:On September 03 2010 15:03 Fanatic-Templar wrote:
Not that I disagree with the general gist of the rant, but I do find it amusing that you should say that you want people to run at a deficit 'for the good of E-SPORTS', but the people who shout 'E-SPORTS' the loudest are also some of the most outraged by GOM not offering free streams or VODs. Shouldn't these people be eager to pay - for the good of E-SPORTS? Or is it that it should be expected that people make sacrifices for the good of E-SPORTS, so long as I am not one of those people? Why would you pay for a service that's very, very uncertain? You pay 20 dollars for MLB Premium. Baseball is very well established, the players are professional, the game has developed enough to the point it's exciting in its own way with professional casters. SC2 has nothing like that. In fact, I'm almost certain that even if they have paid streams, they can't guarantee a good, stable stream even when paid. Hell, it's not even HQ. Honestly Gom should just 1) have live stream free, 2) charge 99 cents per VoD. Why? LIve Stream is already on at an inconvenient time anyway, but people will hype it, recommend it, and people looking at that will purchase VoDs. At least that way you know you're only paying for "quality" content. Or even have this entire season free so that people are more certain of GOM's quality, and then they can charge for it (for a lower price i hope) in the future. Right now there's a lot of uncertainty and helping people confirm GSL's quality will help out a ton. I don't think people should have to blindly pay for products they're not certain of. But isn't that the same for every party involved? There's no guarantee that StarCraft II will become a success. Why should Gretech invest in a product that's very, very uncertain? Why would KeSPA make concessions for it? Nobody wants to risk losing. I don't disagree with what you're saying, but I can't blame people for using the same reasoning I am - I won't purchase GOM's product for the same reason they're not offering it to me free. Gretech should be investing money into this for future profit. A successful business doesn't anticipate profit in year 1. Their goal should be expanding the customer base before trying to cash in. Look at Facebook, Godaddy, and Google. They took funding from their investors, use it all, then ask for more money from their investors, before thinking of methods to make money from their customers. That's how you go from small business to big business.
And that's probably the underlying reason Blizzard did not push for SC1 IP issue with such tenacity until it's time to "cash in". It's not entirely Blizzard's fault in this case, KeSPA set themselves up as the cash cow. In my opinion, the timing of SC2, and why it's given such a lengthy development period was probably all part of an ingenious corporate plan. Gretech's success or failure will have no effect on Blizzard's plan.
If Gretech succeed, KeSPA will crumble and Pro-players will have to follow. If not, Blizzard will have a "truce" with KeSPA, and push out SC2 with all its Pro-players and leagues again. Will e-sports die, highly unlikely. Companies will look at it and go, "OK, it has cracks. How can I profit from it?"
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The reason BW became so epic is because of the huge following it gathered. There were villains, cheaters, tyrants, dreamers, revolutionists, terrorists, and it was so much fun to follow. I'm sure Kespa was a lousy host, but it wasn't that bad in the end.
Blizzard wants to create something like this on their own, but at the same time they don't want the fans to be part of it. Making their scene only available for people that pay up and killing MSL/PL means they have a grand scheme for how things are going to unfold. Maybe this is all a publicity stunt to earn GSL some recognition (albeit bad). I hope they fail and go back to working on WoW so the fans can take over SC2
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I finally had the time to read this
Thanks a lot, Milkis, for putting these thoughts into words. It is highly appreciated!
I'm really hoping for a better future for eSports - right now these money companies are threatening to kill it completely - outside South Korea at least.
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There was a huge hope about GOM's GSL, huge hype around it, huge expectations. It was the same for SC2 and Blizzard with its reputation of making great things for gamers.
But now...
It all just bleaks. There is just too much disappointment.
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To me it seems that Blizzard have these amazingly talented game creaters, designers, coders, artists and everthing else that makes a core game.
Then there are the new employees, hired or forced in by activition/investors, that wants to make sure the game creates as much money as possible right here and now.
So they are forcing all these things down on the actual game creaters, like the approach "lets make this unit that seems cool, and then we have to balance around it" instead of actually thinking in the big picture first.
And even though all these things were forced down on Blizzards core game creater talent, they still made an amazing game. Thankfully, talent just can't be held down.
But, talent always go where there is the most freedom to develop and cater to that talent, so if the decision-makers at Blizzard keeps forcing things down on the actual game creaters I think Blizzard will slowly lose them, and eventually won't make good games anymore.
+ Show Spoiler +It keep thinking about these game creaters with so much sympathy. I like to think they think about the game as an artist think of his album/book/song/painting they made as good as they could. And it actually turned out really really well even though so many things and outside forces tried to mess with it and they had to follow all these strange rules and orders. And now everything that relates to it is just getting raped and messed with and there is nothing they can do than watch their creation getting a worse and worse reputation. So sad really.
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EPT
