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On July 06 2010 11:26 SLTorak.Hobo wrote:
Instead you shuffle it to somewhere that it won't bother you? Sounds like you would rather be ignorant of its situation then resolve it.
you don't know what you're talking about. was my family not there, I would have gladly have sat with the creature until it passed. it really wasn't my choice.
Its not deciding whether its life is worth living its doing the right thing if its gonna die its gonna die.
We are all going to die, and some of us are going to have intense suffering before we die. Should we be killed now to forgo the suffering?
Those couple minutes of being in pure pain isn't going to be highlight of its life. Injuries don't suddenly disappear and heal up in a matter of minutes, if the bird wasn't capable of moving it wasn't gonna suddenly jump up and fly off into a happy life.
Did I say any such thing? Did I say I expected it to live, or even imply that?
Personally, I believe in rebirth - and I believe that one can grow spiritually(even a bird) by experiencing what it experiences - including suffering. I am willing to draw a line to prevent torture, but it wasn't torture. It was just in pain and dying as so many creatures are.
And I am sure many people think my views on rebirth are ridiculous. I really don't care. Those people who would so quickly dismiss my views do so on the basis that they have already formed their own.
On July 06 2010 11:26 micronesia wrote:
I really hate the issue of putting an animal out of its misery and how looked down upon it is.... You can't do it in front of other people but I feel terrible seeing an animal suffer to death when we could so easily prevent that.
I bet if the bird could talk and I asked it "should I kill you", it would say no. That's why I didn't kill it. I am no fool and I am extremely compassionate.
There is a reason animals fight through everything to continue to try to survive. It's natural. It's not our place to refuse their struggle and end their existences because we don't like their suffering.
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On July 06 2010 11:26 micronesia wrote:
I really hate the issue of putting an animal out of its misery and how looked down upon it is.... You can't do it in front of other people but I feel terrible seeing an animal suffer to death when we could so easily prevent that.
Obviously there is a fine line... you don't want to stomp an animal to death that has a slightly bruised leg or something.
the fine line is the line between reasoning and nature. you are not involved with the animal. both the prey and the predator are acting their part. there is no reason for which we would have to shoo the cat away from its rightly deserved catch/food and put the bird out of its pain. another thing is that neither a bird nor a cat have the same level of awareness as more highly intelligent species (humans), which means that they dont have plans, thoughts, and with that not really anything to lose. if you were responsible for the suffering of the animal you might have some responsibility to reduce its suffering. it still wont lose anything by its death though.
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On July 06 2010 11:26 micronesia wrote:
I really hate the issue of putting an animal out of its misery and how looked down upon it is.... You can't do it in front of other people but I feel terrible seeing an animal suffer to death when we could so easily prevent that.
Obviously there is a fine line... you don't want to stomp an animal to death that has a slightly bruised leg or something.
I've been on both sides of this one.
I was a big WW2 nut as a kid (History Channel, documentaries, books & games) and it always made me wonder how iI would feel if I was horribly wounded. Would I just want to get shot in the head? I had always assumed yes, but recently I'm much less afraid of death and would rather be left to try to stay alive. Also, I know assume it isn't my place to decide for anyone else.
As for animals, I usually just let my cat eat whatever he catches, so long as he keeps the dead animals outside.
Still, if a deer got its leg mangled or something I'd probably kill it and eat it. Probably because I see some utility in not only ending the suffering, but also making use of it.
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People aren't animals, we could discuss it happening with humans but thats a whole different topic. Sit with it till it died? What fucking good would that do to be honest, I don't know what silly belief system you have but I know I'd personally rather end something then watch it suffer. As far as rebirth goes what does that have to do with you killing it? Would that not speed up the process? Or am I in a different reality. You are trying to be way too spiritual about something simple. The cat had the bird to a state where it wouldn't move and by your description it wouldn't recover, even if the bird didn't know that you, as a person, were able to comprehend that and chose to let it die slow instead of quick and merciful. Don't say you are compassionate because that is anything but.
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United States24799 Posts
On July 06 2010 11:37 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:26 micronesia wrote:
I really hate the issue of putting an animal out of its misery and how looked down upon it is.... You can't do it in front of other people but I feel terrible seeing an animal suffer to death when we could so easily prevent that.
Obviously there is a fine line... you don't want to stomp an animal to death that has a slightly bruised leg or something. the fine line is the line between reasoning and nature. you are not involved with the animal. both the prey and the predator are acting their part. there is no reason for which we would have to shoo the cat away from its rightly deserved catch/food and put the bird out of its pain. another thing is that neither a bird nor a cat have the same level of awareness as more highly intelligent species (humans), which means that they dont have plans, thoughts, and with that not really anything to lose. if you were responsible for the suffering of the animal you might have some responsibility to reduce its suffering. it still wont lose anything by its death though.
Yeah you can make that point. Usually when I'm around it's because an animal got run over by a golf cart or something stupid like that.
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On July 06 2010 11:11 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:59 koreasilver wrote:On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote:
great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts But doesn't this form of asceticism change the the ignorance with avoidance? It is still running away from the issue, just in a different form. No, do you know what enlightenment is? I could explain it to you. But I would prefer if first you told me what you think it is. It is much more than ascetism, that really doesn't describe it. (please don't copy or look up something online. just try to use your own words without referencing something else. that way we could actually get somewhere) if you wanted to pm me to discuss something like this I would gladly discuss it via pm.
I don't believe in the concept of enlightenment in the form of Buddhism. The entire concept of breaking free of Samsara through the renunciation of all attachment and of the ego, the self, is ludicrous to me. I believe in the joyful affirmation of life despite the absurdity of it. The Eastern concept of enlightenment is but an escape, not a revolt or the effort to internalize the No of existence. I have always thought Buddhism is fundamentally nihilistic even if it is in a different way of the type of nihilism that permeates in Western thought as it is a far more peaceful and calm way of it. The ultimate reality of Buddhism is the cease of all existence and meaning. If all things are fundamentally nonexistent as Hui-Neng has said, then there is no meaning. If the ultimate reality is nothingness, then how can you possibly not be nihilistic?
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On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote:
great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts
that's just where we'll have to disagree then, because by that assessment, you must believe there are perfect people in existence. because if there weren't perfect people, then they could not perform this way. this is not to say that people that are always reflective are perfect, but one would surely have to be perfect in order to never miss a time to reflect.
so, while i do believe in perfection, i believe humankind only ever witnessed it once.
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I remember back in college I was in a mini-seminar with some girl I had a crush on. I forget exactly why, but she started going off on this rant about how meat wasnt' just murder, but it was also torture and concentration camps, etc etc. So I asked, "So you're a vegetarian for principled reasons, not for health reasons?" And she confirmed, "Yes." Then I rejoined, "Do you feed your cats?"
The point completely missed her. "Of course I feed my cats! They're natural carnivores and don't eat vegetables. What's feeding my cats have to do with anything, dumbass?"
Quickly crossed her off my list of crushes.
Yea, people in general don't like thinking things through. This is especially true of double standards. Every Patriot is guilty of this, like, by definition. It gets annoying after a while.
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Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
i always thought in several cases that purposeful ignorance would be more efficient?
Sometimes you dont have time to think about everything, and sometimes it's probably better not to,
Like a businessman being purposely ignorant and feeding his family, as opposed to one who searches the for truth and loses all his money , wife , family.
Or like, you see a person getting killed , and the only way to save him is to risk death yourself
bad examples, but hopefully see what i mean
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On July 06 2010 11:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote:
People aren't animals, we could discuss it happening with humans but thats a whole different topic. Sit with it till it died? What fucking good would that do to be honest, I don't know what silly belief system you have but I know I'd personally rather end something then watch it suffer. As far as rebirth goes what does that have to do with you killing it? Would that not speed up the process? Or am I in a different reality. You are trying to be way too spiritual about something simple. The cat had the bird to a state where it wouldn't move and by your description it wouldn't recover, even if the bird didn't know that you, as a person, were able to comprehend that and chose to let it die slow instead of quick and merciful. Don't say you are compassionate because that is anything but.
tbh I think he's just being consistent in how he treats things according to his view on the world.
but hold up..if something is simple, does that mean you can't be spiritual about it? Why does being simple exclude it? That sounds completely arbitrary. I don't feel its a valid thing to force onto somebody else. Sorry to interrupt the flow don't know why this stuck out to me
Anyway not killing came from a respect of the animal's will to live. Let it fight to survive as is natural, even if it hurts. Respect. I know it sounds barbarous to some people but I share the belief that pain and death aren't hideous things to be shunned and avoided just because we don't like them. They're both legitimate parts of being a living thing..let everything run its course.
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By tomorrow morning I should be again ignorant of the ideas in this blog.
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On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote:
How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not?
Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness
There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on.
Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature.
These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it.
To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant.
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/Much respect
+ Show Spoiler +On July 06 2010 10:33 travis wrote:
You know, I bet this blog probably offends a lot of people. But that's good, they should be offended. On July 06 2010 11:23 travis wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:22 SLTorak.Hobo wrote:
If you knew the bird was going to die why didn't you kill it off instead of letting a cat toy with it or letting it sit out in the woods suffering till something else comes along and ends it? Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:47 Tadzio wrote:
I remember back in college I was in a mini-seminar with some girl I had a crush on. I forget exactly why, but she started going off on this rant about how meat wasnt' just murder, but it was also torture and concentration camps, etc etc. So I asked, "So you're a vegetarian for principled reasons, not for health reasons?" And she confirmed, "Yes." Then I rejoined, "Do you feed your cats?"
The point completely missed her. "Of course I feed my cats! They're natural carnivores and don't eat vegetables. What's feeding my cats have to do with anything, dumbass?"
Quickly crossed her off my list of crushes.
Yea, people in general don't like thinking things through. This is especially true of double standards. Every Patriot is guilty of this, like, by definition. It gets annoying after a while. I had no intentions of allowing the cat to toy with it. I'd rather allow it to die in peace. I would only kill the animal myself if I knew it's suffering was to be extreme and prolonged. It isn't really my place to decide whether or not an animal's life is still worth living.
^^ Love you guys
Great read as always ^^;;
Curious about what you guys think about hunting (killing animals for enjoyment)
There are people (who I went to school with) that purposely hit animals that cross the road, Squirrel goes to cross the road, they speed up to hit and and just laugh and drive off.. It brings me to a boil.
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On July 06 2010 11:55 HeavOnEarth wrote:Show nested quote +
Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
i always thought in several cases that purposeful ignorance would be more efficient? Sometimes you dont have time to think about everything, and sometimes it's probably better not to, Like a businessman being purposely ignorant and feeding his family, as opposed to one who searches the for truth and loses all his money , wife , family. Or like, you see a person getting killed , and the only way to save him is to risk death yourself bad examples, but hopefully see what i mean
There are times when not thinking about things and being purposefully ignorant in the short run is beneficial when it helps you achieve your goals. But not confronting the different aspects of life, ever, causes more pain and suffering than confronting them, in this case: pain, suffering & death.
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+ Show Spoiler +man, i posted this in the last travis blog, but after reading what must have been a totally uncharacteristic smidgeon of wisdom from him, i lose more and more respect for him with the passing blogs. saw the 5 star rating on this and was just wishing there was a -5 star option so i could cancel out at least. =[.
On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote:
Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
Yeah bro. Obv theyre gonna get eaten by that tiger thats chasing both of ya like, 10 times faster.
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^^ Love you guys
Great read as always ^^;;
Curious about what you guys think about hunting (killing animals for enjoyment)
There are people (who I went to school with) that purposely hit animals that cross the road, Squirrel goes to cross the road, they speed up to hit and and just laugh and drive off.. It brings me to a boil.
I hunt animals for enjoyment I suppose you could say, but at the same time I never shoot anything I don't intend to eat and do need the meat. I've never understood the big thrill in shooting a bear, or even going to Africa to shoot a lion to prove what..manliness? What a joke. People who swerve to hit something crossing the road piss me off and if I am in the vehicle when it happens shit hits the fan. There is no need of it, maybe it'd be nice if something preyed on people for a while and gave us a good view of how it feels  .
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On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote:
How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not? Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on. Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature. These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it. To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant. if you reread that closely you will notice that what you are saying boils down to "it is better to leave these things as they are instead of trying to fix/prevent them".
in order to change those things you need to be aware of them. do you rather want to continue eating crap, or would you like it to be known to people so that measures can be taken against it? are you ok with rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery or are you not and therefor have to want to end and prevent it?
be careful with where your reasoning leads. if you are in favor of ignorance you are in favor of letting all of these things happen. im not sure that that is what you wanted to say.
i could have phrased that much shorter. ignorance serves the status quo.
also, ignorance includes not striving to get to know the truth btw, not just not knowing. nobody knows everything, but once you stop caring to find out all progress is stalled.
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I agree completely with OP and would go so far as to say that it's one of the prime problems in our society.
Don't even want to begin to think about "purposeful ignorance" when it comes to political/social/ethical issues. LOL 
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On July 06 2010 11:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote:
People aren't animals, we could discuss it happening with humans but thats a whole different topic. Sit with it till it died? What fucking good would that do to be honest, I don't know what silly belief system you have but I know I'd personally rather end something then watch it suffer. As far as rebirth goes what does that have to do with you killing it? Would that not speed up the process? Or am I in a different reality. You are trying to be way too spiritual about something simple. The cat had the bird to a state where it wouldn't move and by your description it wouldn't recover, even if the bird didn't know that you, as a person, were able to comprehend that and chose to let it die slow instead of quick and merciful. Don't say you are compassionate because that is anything but.
you would kill it because you don't like that it is suffering, right? but this disregards that it wants to live.
as for everything else i said, it was replying to each part of what you said.
On July 06 2010 11:45 koreasilver wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 11:11 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:59 koreasilver wrote:On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote:
great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts But doesn't this form of asceticism change the the ignorance with avoidance? It is still running away from the issue, just in a different form. No, do you know what enlightenment is? I could explain it to you. But I would prefer if first you told me what you think it is. It is much more than ascetism, that really doesn't describe it. (please don't copy or look up something online. just try to use your own words without referencing something else. that way we could actually get somewhere) if this post was your answer could you please rephrase it and/or stick to just the actual question, as a favor to me - so as to make it easier to reply to. if you wanted to pm me to discuss something like this I would gladly discuss it via pm. I don't believe in the concept of enlightenment in the form of Buddhism. The entire concept of breaking free of Samsara through the renunciation of all attachment and of the ego, the self, is ludicrous to me. I believe in the joyful affirmation of life despite the absurdity of it. The Eastern concept of enlightenment is but an escape, not a revolt or the effort to internalize the No of existence. I have always thought Buddhism is fundamentally nihilistic even if it is in a different way of the type of nihilism that permeates in Western thought as it is a far more peaceful and calm way of it. The ultimate reality of Buddhism is the cease of all existence and meaning. If all things are fundamentally nonexistent as Hui-Neng has said, then there is no meaning. If the ultimate reality is nothingness, then how can you possibly not be nihilistic?
I asked for you to tell me what you think enlightenment is. until i know that we can't really go anywhere in this conversation because we are likely talking about different things.
On July 06 2010 11:46 danl9rm wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote:
great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance. not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts that's just where we'll have to disagree then, because by that assessment, you must believe there are perfect people in existence. because if there weren't perfect people, then they could not perform this way. this is not to say that people that are always reflective are perfect, but one would surely have to be perfect in order to never miss a time to reflect. so, while i do believe in perfection, i believe humankind only ever witnessed it once.
I'd have to ask you the same thing as koreasilver and say "what do you think enlightenment is?"
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On July 06 2010 12:15 enzym wrote:Show nested quote +On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote:
How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.
And what is QC?
Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not? Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on. Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature. These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it. To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant. if you reread that closely you will notice that what you are saying boils down to "it is better to leave these things as they are instead of trying to fix/prevent them". in order to change those things you need to be aware of them. do you rather want to continue eating crap, or would you like it to be known to people so that measures can be taken against it? are you ok with rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery or are you not and therefor have to want to end and prevent it? be careful with where your reasoning leads. if you are in favor of ignorance you are in favor of letting all of these things happen. im not sure that that is what you wanted to say. i could have phrased that much shorter. ignorance serves the status quo.
You're never going to abolish all those things and all the pain and suffering in the world. Does my knowing this make me less ignorant than you?
Also being in favor of ignorance does not make me in favor of letting these things happen... geez where do you guys get your logic.
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