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Purposeful ignorance - Page 5

Blogs > Deleted User 3420
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Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-06 04:26:07
July 06 2010 04:24 GMT
#81
--- Nuked ---
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
July 06 2010 04:26 GMT
#82
On July 06 2010 13:23 SLTorak.Hobo wrote:
Just out of curiosity what religion in particular are you following? Or guidelines? You remind me of a friend who was heavily into Falun Gong and had the same approach. Rebirth is a life after you die, hence it is the same thing as an afterlife - it happens after your first life. Lets not debate names and terms because the end product is the same idea.


I think theravadan buddhism is great but these days I don't really feel a need for a label for what I believe


That being said I think you would be quite surprised on how much people consider death given we are surrounded by it in every medium.


I certainly could be wrong I just go by what I have seen and I know and hear about people who do not confront such issues but rather shy away from it, and then are very afraid when it comes time to die.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-06 04:28:57
July 06 2010 04:27 GMT
#83
On July 06 2010 13:24 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
No. You said that you think everyone contemplates death multiple times before they die.

no, I didn't.


I am sorry, talking to too many people at once. it was someone else who did that.

uh... but if u didn't agree with him.. why were you replying to my reply to someone else.

I see now that this is why I became confused.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-06 04:30:38
July 06 2010 04:29 GMT
#84
--- Nuked ---
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
July 06 2010 04:32 GMT
#85
On July 06 2010 13:29 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
I certainly could be wrong I just go by what I have seen and I know and hear about people who do not confront such issues but rather shy away from it, and then are very afraid when it comes time to die.

If only this thought process didn't exist, I would be a much happier person.

"Hmm, they are not expressing what they think, therefore they must not be thinking anything at all."

I may never understand how creatures as intelligent as humans can actually come to such misinformed conclusions.


So then you are disagreeing that this is how many people live?
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
July 06 2010 04:34 GMT
#86
--- Nuked ---
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
July 06 2010 04:35 GMT
#87
On July 06 2010 13:34 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
So then you are disagreeing that this is how many people live?

No, i am disagreeing that this is how MOST people live.


You might be right. But it is probably an issue of what we each consider to be serious contemplation.
eLiE
Profile Blog Joined April 2010
Canada1039 Posts
July 06 2010 04:36 GMT
#88
I love the stuff you type, travis. Always so deep. Most people employ purposeful ignorance in their lives, or else we'd spend our whole lives helping others (which isn't a bad thing, but let's be honest, most people only care about their own well being). Whether it's changing the channel during the commercial that shows starving African children or turning away from the beggar on the street, people would rather be oblivious to the suffering of others than feel some of that pain and do something about it. But who can ignore the cries of an innocent creature? I think it gets harder and harder as more and more of your senses become involved in the situation.
How's the weather down there?
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
July 06 2010 04:38 GMT
#89
--- Nuked ---
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
July 06 2010 04:39 GMT
#90
On July 06 2010 13:35 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2010 13:34 Barrin wrote:
So then you are disagreeing that this is how many people live?

No, i am disagreeing that this is how MOST people live.


You might be right. But it is probably an issue of what we each consider to be serious contemplation.

and of which we all have different answers to.
danl9rm
Profile Blog Joined July 2009
United States3111 Posts
July 06 2010 04:40 GMT
#91
On July 06 2010 13:23 travis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2010 13:20 danl9rm wrote:
On July 06 2010 12:21 travis wrote:
On July 06 2010 11:42 SLTorak.Hobo wrote:
People aren't animals, we could discuss it happening with humans but thats a whole different topic. Sit with it till it died? What fucking good would that do to be honest, I don't know what silly belief system you have but I know I'd personally rather end something then watch it suffer. As far as rebirth goes what does that have to do with you killing it? Would that not speed up the process? Or am I in a different reality. You are trying to be way too spiritual about something simple. The cat had the bird to a state where it wouldn't move and by your description it wouldn't recover, even if the bird didn't know that you, as a person, were able to comprehend that and chose to let it die slow instead of quick and merciful. Don't say you are compassionate because that is anything but.



you would kill it because you don't like that it is suffering, right? but this disregards that it wants to live.

as for everything else i said, it was replying to each part of what you said.


On July 06 2010 11:45 koreasilver wrote:
On July 06 2010 11:11 travis wrote:
On July 06 2010 10:59 koreasilver wrote:
On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:
On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote:
great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance.


not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts

But doesn't this form of asceticism change the the ignorance with avoidance? It is still running away from the issue, just in a different form.


No, do you know what enlightenment is? I could explain it to you. But I would prefer if first you told me what you think it is. It is much more than ascetism, that really doesn't describe it.

(please don't copy or look up something online. just try to use your own words without referencing something else. that way we could actually get somewhere)

if this post was your answer could you please rephrase it and/or stick to just the actual question, as a favor to me - so as to make it easier to reply to.

if you wanted to pm me to discuss something like this I would gladly discuss it via pm.

I don't believe in the concept of enlightenment in the form of Buddhism. The entire concept of breaking free of Samsara through the renunciation of all attachment and of the ego, the self, is ludicrous to me. I believe in the joyful affirmation of life despite the absurdity of it. The Eastern concept of enlightenment is but an escape, not a revolt or the effort to internalize the No of existence. I have always thought Buddhism is fundamentally nihilistic even if it is in a different way of the type of nihilism that permeates in Western thought as it is a far more peaceful and calm way of it. The ultimate reality of Buddhism is the cease of all existence and meaning. If all things are fundamentally nonexistent as Hui-Neng has said, then there is no meaning. If the ultimate reality is nothingness, then how can you possibly not be nihilistic?


I asked for you to tell me what you think enlightenment is. until i know that we can't really go anywhere in this conversation because we are likely talking about different things.


On July 06 2010 11:46 danl9rm wrote:
On July 06 2010 10:52 travis wrote:
On July 06 2010 10:46 danl9rm wrote:
great blog dude. you are very right, except for your opening statement "many people, if not all people, have moments of purposeful ignorance." with this statement your are just "sorta right." in fact, all people have moments of purposeful ignorance.


not necessarily. there are some very wise people out there, there are probably even enlightened people out there - there are a lot of people on the earth and a lot of people in pursuit of it. most of them don't post on the internetz. they live in caves and monasteries and huts


that's just where we'll have to disagree then, because by that assessment, you must believe there are perfect people in existence. because if there weren't perfect people, then they could not perform this way. this is not to say that people that are always reflective are perfect, but one would surely have to be perfect in order to never miss a time to reflect.

so, while i do believe in perfection, i believe humankind only ever witnessed it once.


I'd have to ask you the same thing as koreasilver and say "what do you think enlightenment is?"


I don't believe in enlightenment at all. I believe we are all imperfect and, so long as we're on earth, always will be.

If you want to know more, I will go beyond that.



I'd like that. Could you explain what you mean by perfect? I believe we are all imperfect as well, even enlightened people. I do not consider enlightenment to have anything to do with perfection, just with acceptance.


Oh, I see. I did make that connection but I guess I was wrong to do so. I guess I need to read more of what you believe enlightenment is.

edit: Ok, lol, I read a lot more of your answers to some enraged members of TL not understanding your thought patterns and I must say, as afraid as I am to, we are similar.

You know how you read TL too much and you start to see those familiar posts that displease your mind, and you may even wish you hadn't read them? And then you notice how it seems to be those same few people that are posting those posts which you find yourself disagreeing with? Well, travis, you were one of those guys for me. :p
To find we have so much in common now, it is disturbing, haha

edit2: So, by 'perfect,' I do mean perfect. By 'enlightenment,' well, that is a word I would only use when outside of any religious connotations or concepts. I believe no one is perfect, though we should all strive to be, and one can be, not in the physical, but spiritual, when looked upon by God himself, should they accept it - the gift.
"Science has so well established that the preborn baby in the womb is a living human being that most pro-choice activists have conceded the point. ..since the abortion proponents have lost the science argument, they are now advocating an existential one."
SLTorak.Hobo
Profile Joined February 2010
Canada67 Posts
July 06 2010 04:48 GMT
#92
What do you believe enlightenment is Travis? You say acceptance but have been pretty vague on your overall view so far.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
July 06 2010 04:51 GMT
#93
On July 06 2010 13:39 koreasilver wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2010 13:35 travis wrote:
On July 06 2010 13:34 Barrin wrote:
So then you are disagreeing that this is how many people live?

No, i am disagreeing that this is how MOST people live.


You might be right. But it is probably an issue of what we each consider to be serious contemplation.

and of which we all have different answers to.


absolutely, I never said I wasn't being subjective


@barrin: you have no idea how prideful I am. You keep acting like you know a whole hell of a lot about me from my posts. I can understand why I come off as excessively prideful, and it is actually one of my vices. That isn't to say I wouldn't post the exact same way were I just confident, rather than prideful. In reality I am both.

Anyways, I would say to you that you are excessively presumptuous, for such a contemplative man.
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-06 04:58:46
July 06 2010 04:57 GMT
#94
On July 06 2010 13:48 SLTorak.Hobo wrote:
What do you believe enlightenment is Travis? You say acceptance but have been pretty vague on your overall view so far.


It's not an easy thing to do because if I try to explain it simply most people read the words and think of something else, because language is interpreted subjectively, especially with such an abstract concept. And If try to explain it the complicated way - it is complicated.

But I will give it a go anyways, in my own words.

The enlightened state would be the state when you accept who you are naturally. What you do and say occurs naturally, without effort. There is no suffering, because pleasure and pain are accepted as is and without judgement - they are non disturbing. There is only awareness of the present moment, right now. The awareness has no attachment to body or ego. This awareness is the basis of consciousness, but exists in unconsciousness as well.
enzym
Profile Joined January 2010
Germany1034 Posts
July 06 2010 05:01 GMT
#95
On July 06 2010 12:23 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2010 12:15 enzym wrote:
On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote:
How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.

And what is QC?


Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not?


Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness

There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on.

Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature.

These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it.

To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant.
if you reread that closely you will notice that what you are saying boils down to "it is better to leave these things as they are instead of trying to fix/prevent them".
in order to change those things you need to be aware of them. do you rather want to continue eating crap, or would you like it to be known to people so that measures can be taken against it? are you ok with rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery or are you not and therefor have to want to end and prevent it?
be careful with where your reasoning leads. if you are in favor of ignorance you are in favor of letting all of these things happen. im not sure that that is what you wanted to say.

i could have phrased that much shorter. ignorance serves the status quo.


You're never going to abolish all those things and all the pain and suffering in the world. Does my knowing this make me less ignorant than you?

Also being in favor of ignorance does not make me in favor of letting these things happen... geez where do you guys get your logic.
logic is consistent, having your values denote said things as bad and saying youd rather not bother knowing about them, while they are happenning in the reality you are living in (in your society, commited by people of your species, on the planet you are living on, ...) is contradictory. if you accept these things as bad that means you are in favour of avoiding them (not yourself, but in general). you can only avoid them if you know and want to know about them. its simple.
what makes you not less, but more ignorant than me is that you didnt notice this inconsistency but were arrogant enough to think that your line of thought had no mistakes.

On July 06 2010 12:38 Saechiis wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 06 2010 12:15 enzym wrote:
On July 06 2010 12:01 DeathByMonkeys wrote:
On July 06 2010 10:30 travis wrote:
How is there a shitload you're better off not knowing? Could you please explain to me the benefit of ignorance? Let me assure you that ignorant people suffer more in the long run than people who challenge theirselves to gain acceptance of reality. Not to mention they are weaker, stupider, more naive, and more foolish.

And what is QC?


Why does spellcheck want me to put a hyphen in "theirselves". Is that not one word? And if it isn't, why not?


Ignorance != stupidity/weakness/foolishness

There is definitely stuff you're better off not knowing about. For example, all the pre-teens being brutally raped around the world, people being slayed and burned alive, people being tortured in all sorts of god awful ways (extremities cut off, acid poured in their eyes, electrocution, water boarding, whatever the thing is that stretches people 'till they're ripped apart), heroin addicts going through withdrawals (not too mention women selling their bodies for it, or boyfriends doing it for them [watch Requiem for a Dream]), all the suffering, people dying extremely slow/painful deaths from AIDs and such. The list goes on.

Also many less extreme things. For example if you knew how half the food you ate was made/prepared you would probably throw up. Also if you knew what it took for you to get the shoes on your feet made and things of this nature.

These types of things just to name a few, and I'm sure this is a mild list compared to what is actually happening around the world as I type this, but alas I'm ignorant to a lot of it.

To address your saying ignorance makes you stupid/weak/foolish, that is just ridiculous. Ignorance is legitimately not knowing something, being stupid is knowing yet still "playing dumb". You can't just blame people and accuse them of being weak because they don't know everything, that is absolutely horrible. I'm sure there are millions of people far more wise than you and far less foolish, but you may have a degree and know a few more things that were written in a book somewhere making you a bit less ignorant.
if you reread that closely you will notice that what you are saying boils down to "it is better to leave these things as they are instead of trying to fix/prevent them".
in order to change those things you need to be aware of them. do you rather want to continue eating crap, or would you like it to be known to people so that measures can be taken against it? are you ok with rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery or are you not and therefor have to want to end and prevent it?
be careful with where your reasoning leads. if you are in favor of ignorance you are in favor of letting all of these things happen. im not sure that that is what you wanted to say.

i could have phrased that much shorter. ignorance serves the status quo.
also, ignorance includes not striving to get to know the truth btw, not just not knowing. nobody knows everything, but once you stop caring to find out all progress is stalled.


Enzym, I don't want to crush your utopian beliefs, but are you saying you spend every second of every day fighting: "rape, torture, murder, genocide, slavery"? Because if you aren't, by you standards you'd be a bad person and a hypocrit.

I think that in order for man to be "enlightened", they have to accept that they cannot control everything around them. There is no such thing as a perfect being, but a lot of people suffer because they feel like they have to be one. Instead of trying your whole life to become something that doesn't exist, wouldn't it be better to just enjoy your life while it lasts? Wouldn't you being able to enjoy your life and doing so be a tribute to those who are suffering at the time? or would they be better served with you being miserable because they are?

Saying that people don't care when they choose not to worry about things they cannot control, is offensive and not based on truth.
thats not what im saying. i spend every second of every day being more aware of things, despising them, despising the people that dont care about these things and thereby letting them happen. all the failures of society/humanity start from the tiniest level of ignorance and built up right to which politicians get into power and all the actions they will perform. every second you dont care about something is more acceptance in society for that thing. i dont fight these things, because i cant. i am in no position of authority, dont have a big sphere of influence, have never happened across one of these things while it was being committed. but what i can do is choose were i am placing my support, which ends i want to further, affecting my close surroundings.
its not about being able to create a perfect world at once. its about being consistent, not blind. now, if your values go hand in hand with those things then there is no problem.

im no hypocrite just because you didnt read the previous post right. point my towards a double standard i hold, but dont base it on an assumption. then you can call me a hypocrite. otherwise your attempt at insulting me has no base in reality.
"I fart a lot, often on my gf in bed, then we roll around laughing for 5 mins choking in gas." — exog // "…be'master, the art of reflection. If you are not a thinking man, to what purpose are you a man at all?" — S. T. Coleridge
koreasilver
Profile Blog Joined June 2008
9109 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-06 05:05:11
July 06 2010 05:03 GMT
#96
But how can one be aware and accept who one is naturally without affirming your own self - the self that is of your mind and body. You cannot say that you affirm of your "natural self" when you say that your awareness is not attached to your body and ego. To affirm of your own self is to affirm that you exist; you affirm of your own being as a whole, not just some metaphysical concept. That is an incomplete affirmation, and thereof you are not wholly accepting who you are "naturally"; this is not an enlightenment. This is a denial of the self.
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-06 05:06:42
July 06 2010 05:04 GMT
#97
--- Nuked ---
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
July 06 2010 05:09 GMT
#98
On July 06 2010 14:04 Barrin wrote:
Show nested quote +
@barrin: you have no idea how prideful I am. You keep acting like you know a whole hell of a lot about me from my posts. I can understand why I come off as excessively prideful, and it is actually one of my vices. That isn't to say I wouldn't post the exact same way were I just confident, rather than prideful. In reality I am both.

Anyways, I would say to you that you are excessively presumptuous, for such a contemplative man.

http://thesaurus.com/browse/pride
Pride- Synonyms: "..., self-confidence, ..."

Please explain to m precisely what I have "presumed".

Really though, in a few days when you've totally cooled off, I want you to come back to this thread. I want you to look VERY closely at exactly what I have and and EXACTLY how I worded them.


you wouldn't believe how cool I am right now, actually. cool as a cucumber. It's interesting you think im not.

btw, you should try using a dictionary for definitions, not a thesaurus. that's pretty laughable actually. shows how discerning you are.


Surely there is an argument happening in this thread. But, is it really me who you're arguing against? Clearly, I am not on your side. But, perhaps, just maybe, that's exactly why I am on your side. You see, all of my posts have been tailor-made to provoke you to ask the question: "but why?" If you are really thinking about it, you will begin to understand that this is precisely what you were after in this post. I guarantee you that the way to "enlightenment" is asking "why?". The real trick is learning how to ask the right questions, and that is where the real trick is in trying to teach someone such philosophies.
+ Show Spoiler +
By the way, this is not "my" philosophy, as anyone familiar with historical philosophers would have already caught on to by now.


I would have stopped a while ago if I did not see that you were intelligent and confident enough to understand, eventually.


thank you great master I didn't know such things before you posted them
Randomaccount#77123
Profile Blog Joined May 2010
United States5003 Posts
July 06 2010 05:12 GMT
#99
--- Nuked ---
Deleted User 3420
Profile Blog Joined May 2003
24492 Posts
Last Edited: 2010-07-06 05:16:50
July 06 2010 05:14 GMT
#100
On July 06 2010 14:03 koreasilver wrote:
But how can one be aware and accept who one is naturally without affirming your own self - the self that is of your mind and body.


by seeing that you are not actually a mind nor a body but rather a basis for consciousness, and it's through the consciousness(which you are not) that one is tricked into believing that they are a mind, body, or both.


You cannot say that you affirm of your "natural self" when you say that your awareness is not attached to your body and ego.


The body is just a material thing, the ego is a result of consciousness. The body can exist without ego and act naturally. The awareness can exist in the present moment and experience what is happening while the body acts naturally.


To affirm of your own self is to affirm that you exist; you affirm of your own being as a whole, not just some metaphysical concept. That is an incomplete affirmation, and thereof you are not wholly accepting who you are "naturally"; this is not an enlightenment. This is a denial of the self.


But you assume the body is part of you. I am saying you are not the body.
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