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So one week after sending a email to LZgamer and not getting a response this morning I sent a email to incontrol about getting coaching. Well 4 hours after emailing him I got a response. I just sent the response email back, and I am serious about learning and getting a coach so it looks like I will have one, the only problem is the beta is down right now so I cant start right away. Oh well.
In other news now like a bunch of people I don't have much to do since the beta is down. And well I do not want to get terrible while I wait so I am not sure what I want to do. I may look for my old copy of BW but I think Ill just practice typing fast so I can help improve my apm.
Also I want to thank husky for coming into my blog and saying it wasn't him. That was cool of him.
I'm also not terribly interested in the world cup, I coming from the US was never big into soccer I cant see that changing now. I will watch a game or 2 to see if I change my mind though.
Onegu
 
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I've had iNcontroL, Machine and iNka so far in a teaching course, so far i've enjoyed iNka's method the best  but it's cool to play with the EG guys and make friends.
Haven't tried out LzGamer yet i might when the beta comes back up or not since i'm leaving soon anyway.
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You should try the build order tester while sc2 is down to try to refine some builds ;o
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I'm sorry if I didnt reply
havnt been checking my mail since sc2 went down >_<
been playing too much HoN.
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Ill check and make sure you didn't respond, Ive had the same email since 1999 so I get tons and tons of spam so I may have overlooked it but I don't think so. I am glad that you did respond here though. Can you check and make sure the email I sent you went through?
Btw I was kidding about just typing fast...
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My advice is don't waste your money on coaching for a game thats in beta stage.
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On June 12 2010 05:17 TelecOm1 wrote:
My advice is don't waste your money on coaching.
fixed
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On June 12 2010 05:34 oo_xerox wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 05:17 TelecOm1 wrote:
My advice is don't waste your money on coaching. fixed
solid advice, but sometimes people gotta be taught how to learn right...wait
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
I look forward to working with you sir
There will be haters btw.. can't find a thread on any of these forums where someone isn't hating on the concept. Take it for what it is Sometimes negative conjecture offers a good perspective but don't let it drown out your curiosity/need.
GL!
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Coaching? Never.
I can spend money better.
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On June 12 2010 07:21 {88}iNcontroL wrote:I look forward to working with you sir There will be haters btw.. can't find a thread on any of these forums where someone isn't hating on the concept. Take it for what it is Sometimes negative conjecture offers a good perspective but don't let it drown out your curiosity/need. GL!
I once wrote a largish post in full support of you guys ^__^^ >)>))>
I'd say go for it, you're probably just going to buy Cheetos anyway.
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On June 12 2010 04:25 Lz wrote:I'm sorry if I didnt reply havnt been checking my mail since sc2 went down >_< been playing too much HoN.
Stream some.
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Seriously... There is ABSOLUTELY NO reason at all to pay for coaching for a video game.
1)So many people stream (some who are among the best Lz and NonY to name 2)
2)Liquipedia
3)Replays
I mean seriously how much more could you want? This isn't 1998 where none of those things existed. So much information available for free DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY WTF >_<!!!
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On June 12 2010 08:17 zeuS~ wrote:
Seriously... There is ABSOLUTELY NO reason at all to pay for coaching for a video game.
1)So many people stream (some who are among the best Lz and NonY to name 2)
2)Liquipedia
3)Replays
I mean seriously how much more could you want? This isn't 1998 where none of those things existed. So much information available for free DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY WTF >_<!!!
None of these things can look at your game and tell you exactly what needs work on more. I see myself as a above average player that wants to become great at this game and sure I may be able to get where I want to go by myself but that could take years and alot of time. If you see time as money , then this is a good investment if you see a coach increasing your ability faster. As someone who has seen the improvement from a poker coach. I see a coach as someone who as already put in their time and know what it takes, and has the ability to put this information into someone else and make that person get to where they want to be faster.
I see this as paying for a life shortcut. Sure I can learn chemistry on my own, but I can go to school and learn it from someone else alot faster. I see hireing a coach for SC2 as the same thing. My end goal is tournaments. And instead of being able to get there in 3 years with a coach I maybe able to get there in 1 year.
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On June 12 2010 08:17 zeuS~ wrote:
Seriously... There is ABSOLUTELY NO reason at all to pay for coaching for a video game.
1)So many people stream (some who are among the best Lz and NonY to name 2)
2)Liquipedia
3)Replays
I mean seriously how much more could you want? This isn't 1998 where none of those things existed. So much information available for free DON'T WASTE YOUR MONEY WTF >_<!!!
id be willing to bet you dont get half the information out of a replay/stream/vod that you could, and i doubt you understand the reasoning behind most of what you do see. if it were that easy to get good thered be a whole lot more good players.
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Are you saying that gosucoaching offers the same level of insight as a a proteam in korea? The reason for there being only a handful of players who seem to be at the top even in SC2 beta is because of how much time they spend practicing / talent.
I mean your on CJ , don't all of the players for the most part spend around the same amount of time practicing? Then why do some consistently preform better than others in proleague/starleagues?
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how on earth do you make the jump from my post to "that gosucoaching offers the same level of insight as a a proteam in korea"
obviously not, lzgamer couldnt even give competent tic tac toe lessons. doesnt change the fact that they can help a lot of players.
I mean your on CJ , don't all of the players for the most part spend around the same amount of time practicing? Then why do some consistently preform better than others in proleague/starleagues?
is also irrelevant. people have different skill ceilings, and theres a lot of intangibles that go into determining performance at that level. i dont see how thats an argument against coaching though.
consider the fact that every pro team has coaches, players regularly credit coaches for improvements in their play. in fact nearly every professional athlete has a coach as well. are they all wasting their money too?
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There are a LOT of people that can't figure the game out on their own. I have taught many of my friends how to play SC2 better. I am absolutely positive that a lot of the stuff I have told them they wouldn't have figured out for a long time if ever by watching replays/reading teamliquid.
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I think what all the naysayers mean, is that if you can't figure out most of the stuff on your own to begin with. Then you're not gonna be good enough even after a coaching lesson for it to be worth it. The typical people who pay for coaching, I would assume, are the people who don't have time or wanna take some easy way to the top.
On June 12 2010 11:26 Bosu wrote:
There are a LOT of people that can't figure the game out on their own. I have taught many of my friends how to play SC2 better. I am absolutely positive that a lot of the stuff I have told them they wouldn't have figured out for a long time if ever by watching replays/reading teamliquid.
And exactly this.
It just seems like the whole coaching business is exploiting bad players. But a fool and his money are soon parted, so whatever. I'd be a hypocrite if I said I was against coaching for money.
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On June 12 2010 11:22 IdrA wrote:
obviously not, lzgamer couldnt even give competent tic tac toe lessons.
Oh my god
<3
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On June 12 2010 12:02 CharlieMurphy wrote:
I think what all the naysayers mean, is that if you can't figure out most of the stuff on your own to begin with. Then you're not gonna be good enough even after a coaching lesson for it to be worth it. The typical people who pay for coaching, I would assume, are the people who don't have time or wanna take some easy way to the top.
This doesn't make any sense either and I think you are very much incorrect. If the only rts I have played before SC2 was BGH BW, but I decide that I want to become good at SC2, and I cant figure some things out on my own, that means I not going to improve enough after the coaching for it to be worth it? I think its the opposite, I will have been show things I couldn't figure out on my own and will improve so much from just one lesson that it will have been worth it.
And hell yeah I want a easier way to the top. If I were to just play on my own and just practice by myself watch video's and what not it would take me a hell of a long time to make it to the top. If I can hire someone who is at the top and knows what it takes to get there, then if I am serious about makeing it to the top, why shouldn't I take the short cut?
Also I don't intend to take just one lesson, I plan on doing this for the long haul until my coach thinks I have what it takes to make it to the top.
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My question for you is what do you consider the "top?"
Do you consider making a couple hundred dollars a year the "top?" Because that's what you're paying for.
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Reaching the top for me is being competitive in american tournaments and not just be a easy win and have the potential to win the event. For me I just want to reach my potential in this game and see where it goes, and I want to do this sooner rather than later.
I am disabled so I have to be very selective in what I can be competitive in, I can be competitive in the workplace or on a football field. But I have always wanted to win even before I got sick. And I can see myself doing that in SC2.
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see that is exactly what I was saying. Top players don't need coaching from someone to be at the top. These people who are good foreigners at BW were always near the top when the game was new. And now just because they have BW experience isn't the only reason why they are at the top now.
It's a talent thing imho. You can only learn so much.
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eh, it's 99% in how much work you put towards your goal.
there's a lot of dreamers all of a sudden now that SC2 is coming out, but if anyone has a shot at getting pro then they are probably too busy to even glance at teamliquid or care what their strategy forums say, let alone some "coach."
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On June 12 2010 13:52 CharlieMurphy wrote:
see that is exactly what I was saying. Top players don't need coaching from someone to be at the top. These people who are good foreigners at BW were always near the top when the game was new. And now just because they have BW experience isn't the only reason why they are at the top now.
It's a talent thing imho. You can only learn so much.
name a few professional athletes who dont have coaches.
name a few progamers who dont have coaches.
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This is not the same kind of coaching we are talking about here. And I didnt say coaching was unimportant. ofc it helps people who are already good to get better. and ofc its gonna help some noob get a little better too.
But you know, and I know these random people who get coaching from these things are never going to be top players, no offense.
You're a perfect example idra. you were already decently skilled player without any kind of coaching. You probably at the most just mass gamed, watched reps and vods, and had a online team to practice builds with. you inherently understood the game and what you needed to do to get better at it.
It's not much different from what you do in korea for bw except now its live and more personal assuming that you understand and speak korean at a decent level now.
Which is another good example of why coaching even at the higher level of talent, won't insta boost you to the top. I mean you've been in korea how long now and you're pretty much the same skill level even after all that coaching.
Like I could get all the one on one coaching in the world from tiger woods for the rest of my life and I would still suck balls at golf. Because I just suck at golf when compared to good players, plain and simple. Sure I'd be better than the average joe country club player perhaps, but that's it.
If that's what you hope to gain from this gosucoaching, then that's fine. You've got money to blow obviously to save you a little time otherwise you wouldn't be paying for video game lessons.
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On June 12 2010 13:58 eMbrace wrote:
eh, it's 99% in how much work you put towards your goal.
there's a lot of dreamers all of a sudden now that SC2 is coming out, but if anyone has a shot at getting pro then they are probably too busy to even glance at teamliquid or care what their strategy forums say, let alone some "coach."
Are you serious, am I understanding you correctly in you saying that someone who just plays and does so by trial and error, without looking at strategy sites like teamliquid has a better chance than someone who looks at strategy sites. Pleas tell me you were kidding or You wrote it wrong or I read it wrong.
I mean if you guys really think that people can get the same out of not having a good coach, then having a good coach, I really think you are delusional. Its one thing if you don't think people shouldn't spend money on it and a completely other to think that having a coach is bad.
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On June 12 2010 14:11 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 13:58 eMbrace wrote:
eh, it's 99% in how much work you put towards your goal.
there's a lot of dreamers all of a sudden now that SC2 is coming out, but if anyone has a shot at getting pro then they are probably too busy to even glance at teamliquid or care what their strategy forums say, let alone some "coach." Are you serious, am I understanding you correctly in you saying that someone who just plays and does so by trial and error, without looking at strategy sites like teamliquid has a better chance than someone who looks at strategy sites. Pleas tell me you were kidding or You wrote it wrong or I read it wrong. I mean if you guys really think that people can get the same out of not having a good coach, then having a good coach, I really think you are delusional. Its one thing if you don't think people shouldn't spend money on it and a completely other to think that having a coach is bad.
korean pros are so good because everything about their scene is professionally done. you are among people who live and breath Starcraft 10 hours a day, it's your job. all kids have here is some forum of other kids who aren't terribly good either (and yes I know there are a few respectable names that frequent here).
i was talking down about this coach thing because it sounds a bit iffy to me just going to a website and paying some dude because he's a pretty good brood war player. coaches are obviously beneficial but i think you should be at certain level before you get a personal trainer for a game. especially for one that isn't even out yet.
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Braavos36374 Posts
Can we stop turning every thread about coaching into a debate about whether he should get coaching? He clearly made the decision already. Just because you feel you don't need coaching doesn't mean you need to make someone feel bad because you think he wasted his money. It's his fucking money and its his right to spend it how he likes.
We're not talking about thousands of dollars here, its just a few bucks to get better at something he enjoys. I'm sure all the backseat spenders in this thread use their dollars on things we can nitpick at too, so please stfu.
It's not even like coaching = progamer aspirations. Plenty of people pay for lessons in things they don't want to go pro at. Is it really that big a fucking crime to want to improve at something? It's all about how much your time is worth to you. If you feel a coach would make you better faster, and you'd enjoy it, it makes much more sense to spend 3 hours having fun learning from a coach than 6 hours trying builds from replays. If thats worth X dollars to you, spend it, more power to you.
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On June 12 2010 14:11 Onegu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 12 2010 13:58 eMbrace wrote:
eh, it's 99% in how much work you put towards your goal.
there's a lot of dreamers all of a sudden now that SC2 is coming out, but if anyone has a shot at getting pro then they are probably too busy to even glance at teamliquid or care what their strategy forums say, let alone some "coach." Are you serious, am I understanding you correctly in you saying that someone who just plays and does so by trial and error, without looking at strategy sites like teamliquid has a better chance than someone who looks at strategy sites. Pleas tell me you were kidding or You wrote it wrong or I read it wrong. I mean if you guys really think that people can get the same out of not having a good coach, then having a good coach, I really think you are delusional. Its one thing if you don't think people shouldn't spend money on it and a completely other to think that having a coach is bad.
I think the way he meant that was the people he referenced (those with a chance at going pro) were far too busy building their skill the standard way (mass gaming, analyzing their replays) than to spend free time reading strategy forums or looking at coaching. Sure someone who games 4 hours a day and reads strategy forums 2 will probably do better than someone who games 4 and doesn't read, but I think he meant it as instead of playing 4 and reading 2 the guy with a shot would just play 6.
(Obviously that isn't the actual amount of hours they'd play just an example)
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Braavos36374 Posts
Let the guy talk about coaching without everyone being some sort of expert second guessing his decision. If you post about a movie you watched does everyone say "you shouldn't have spent money on it download that instead!!!" It's retarded. This is his blog.
Seriously I'm going to start handing out warnings and bans for this.
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I think the way he meant that was the people he referenced (those with a chance at going pro) were far too busy building their skill the standard way (mass gaming, analyzing their replays) than to spend free time reading strategy forums or looking at coaching. Sure someone who games 4 hours a day and reads strategy forums 2 will probably do better than someone who games 4 and doesn't read, but I think he meant it as instead of playing 4 and reading 2 the guy with a shot would just play 6.
Do you think this is true? I would put my money on the 4 and 2, But I do think the more likely event is 4,5-5 and 1.5-1. And I do think that person is ahead of the person who doesn't. And if we tweak this a little bit more to someone who plays 40 hours a week vs someone who plays 33, reads forums for 3 and gets coaching for 2. I think the person who has a coach is going to be further ahead in the end.
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Honestly I don't know either way, I've never had a coach for 33 hours read forums for 3 and got coaching for two, I was just trying to clarify what I thought embrace was trying to say
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Onegu, I just think the majority of people are saying that perhaps it's best to wait for the game to get on its legs first before trusting people to make your game better, when the game itself is still largely unknown. Coaching is beneficial, but I couldn't imagine any coach being hugely effective at this stage.
Now of course, as Hot Bid is saying, getting a coach because having someone over your shoulder commentating on your play is an enjoyable thing to have for you -- then no one should speak against that. I just took from your responses that you sound very serious and passionate about the matter and as a result I just want to give some serious feedback -- which would be to put as many hours as you can (in a healthy manner of course) to get comfortable with this game when it is next available. visit forums if you really do find them beneficial, and play enough until you reach that plateau and could use a more professional critique to take your play to the next level.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
a lot of what you guys don't get as well is a big part of the reason people like idra or others didn't "need" a coach while they were top bw players is because they trained, communicated and hung out with other top gamers on a regular basis. Onegu does not have that access. Watching replays, vods or a day9 daily does not provide that kind of support. Getting a few lessons replicates that scenario to a smaller degree but for those that don't have access to that kind of stuff even a limited amount of time with players who are trying to improve their game is hugely beneficial.
As hot_bid said it gets a little old when people start barking about spending money on this. I've been doing it for over a year and it has grown into a website and branched out to other players now... I have yet to rip anyone off. In fact you have 0 negative reports about my coaching. You do get weekly tourneys open to people who took lessons or didn't.. the community is expanding and growing and coaching is/will be a part of that. Help it prosper instead of being a negative nancy who thinks this is a scam to abuse people you ignorantly assume can't spend their money wisely. Nobody gets mad when someone drops 100$ on a proteam jacket but people are infuriated when someone spends 20$ with one of their heroes for an hour of concentrated gaming.
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On June 12 2010 15:14 {88}iNcontroL wrote:
a lot of what you guys don't get as well is a big part of the reason people like idra or others didn't "need" a coach while they were top bw players is because they trained, communicated and hung out with other top gamers on a regular basis. Onegu does not have that access. Watching replays, vods or a day9 daily does not provide that kind of support. Getting a few lessons replicates that scenario to a smaller degree but for those that don't have access to that kind of stuff even a limited amount of time with players who are trying to improve their game.
As hot_bid said it gets a little old when people start barking about spending money on this. I've been doing it for over a year and it has grown into a website and branched out to other players now... I have yet to rip anyone off. In fact you have 0 negative reports about my coaching. You do get weekly tourneys open to people who took lessons or didn't.. the community is expanding and growing and coaching is/will be a part of that. Help it prosper instead of being a negative nancy who thinks this is a scam to abuse people you ignorantly assume can't spend their money wisely. Nobody gets mad when someone drops 100$ on a proteam jacket but people are infuriated when someone spends 20$ with one of their heroes for an hour of concentrated gaming.
This is exactly right. You're not only paying for "lessons," but an environment to practice in as well. You will improve much more if you play with the top players consistently than if you mass game on a ladder and discuss builds with random people. The top players from BW all had connections with each other from the get-go, while your average Joe player was left alone to duke it out by himself. It's not just about what you train, but who you train with.
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On June 12 2010 14:28 Hot_Bid wrote:
Seriously I'm going to start handing out warnings and bans for this.
yeah, you really should...
On June 12 2010 14:24 Hot_Bid wrote:
We're not talking about thousands of dollars here, its just a few bucks to get better at something he enjoys. I'm sure all the backseat spenders in this thread use their dollars on things we can nitpick at too, so please stfu.
yeah....well......i spent a lot of money on candies....
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What a wonderfully quotable blog this was lol.
I am pretty much sick of this though, every time coaching or lessons or camps are brought up everyone has to give their 2 cents about how its a waste of money. Dude, if someone wants to spend their money to make their experience on SC2 more enjoyable then who's fucking business is that but their own? Lay off their ass and let them do what they want. Its great that the gosucoaching guys can attempt to expand the industry within the foreign scene so seriuosly get off their dicks about it and if you think its a bad investment (and obviously you've never had the chance of knowing if this is true or not without trying it) then shut the hell up.
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I'm glad I started this blog post, I will always hear the other side of the argument, and I think I did. It hasn't changed my mind. But for the most part I do want to thank everyone for giving their opinion.
Sorry incontrol your not quite my hero, yet anyway. But as soon as possible I look forward to getting coaching.
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Yeah not to poke the fire again but people pay for things like guitar lessons, piano lessons, training camps for sports ect with little chance of return but its not about that - its about drive. Obviously he has the will to learn and get better and has the time, personally I think its a good idea. This opens up not only new connections but they will be able to present new ways of thinking about the game, better methods of achieving his goals and all that. I am looking forward to reading your next blog personally. Oh by the way, I can drop 20 dollars in seconds and have nothing to show for it an hour later but who really gives a shit let people spend how they want.
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iNcontroL
USA29055 Posts
not everything is about you onegu 
(my post was in general)
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EPT
