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United States24701 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:54 Aberu wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 06:47 micronesia wrote:On June 11 2010 06:42 Aberu wrote:
Seriously, the English language is so free form, why are you guys going into semantics about this? You can apply context to change the definition within a sentence in the English language.
Metagame to me, and many other competitive gamers (using that as context for the sake of discussion), MEANS the development process of strategies, counter-strategies, and utilizing exploits or things once thought useless and making them useful... etc... You KNOW how were are using it and why, but you decide to insult a large number of people by attempting to claim we are uneducated, when you are uneducated as to the effects of context on the English language, and how new definitions are added to dictionaries quite often. Wow this post was so eggplant. Yeah that didn't really make sense but I'm going to get people to start saying it until eggplant means what I want it to. Granted this is a ridiculous example but we have a right to try the limit the shift of language for really stupid reasons. But that's an unreasonable analogy. I mean if you go so literally with semantics like that, saying get raped, or got owned, or get fucked up, or any of that gamer-slang is stupid. Meta as a prefix could either mean above or change. In the way competitive gamers slang the usage of metagame, it's more like change. It's more like we created our own word using the same prefix. Metagame is the development of strategies. "The current state of the metagame has gone from roach hydra mass to nydus worms and drops combined with ultralisk play and infestors" Is an example. Doesn't the word "meta" being used as game-changing make sense now? Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 06:53 jellyfish wrote:On June 11 2010 06:42 Aberu wrote:
Seriously, the English language is so free form, why are you guys going into semantics about this? You can apply context to change the definition within a sentence in the English language.
Metagame to me, and many other competitive gamers (using that as context for the sake of discussion), MEANS the development process of strategies, counter-strategies, and utilizing exploits or things once thought useless and making them useful... etc... You KNOW how were are using it and why, but you decide to insult a large number of people by attempting to claim we are uneducated, when you are uneducated as to the effects of context on the English language, and how new definitions are added to dictionaries quite often. Dictionaries and encyclopedias exist for a reason. They're a sign that a distinction exists between using a language flexibly and misusing it. If tl's commandments say English is the official language, I don't see why the mods can't enforce an official English over what would be, at its generous best, a sub-dialect of English. For my part, I'm annoyed at the overuse of "metagame" because I can understand what it means when Chill et al explain it, but get confused when its bandied about willy-nilly on the strategy forums T_T From a historical perspective of the English language and the evolution of the dictionaries collection of definitions and words ever-changing, doesn't it seem rather short-sighted and ignorant to pass off the competitive gamers' definition of Metagame as mere ignorance?
Yes obviously you shouldn't expect everyone to talk 100% literally and obviously you shouldn't just spew nearly random words. On the other hand you said:
"Seriously, the English language is so free form, why are you guys going into semantics about this? You can apply context to change the definition within a sentence in the English language."
This shows no attempt to claim that there should be at least some limitations on how much people can abuse words and for what reasons. Language will change slowly and you can't stop it but some changes you notice are pretty dumb and those who understand why it's dumb sometimes speak up about it.
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And as I demonstrated, meta can mean Above (which is the way it is used in the example you all have been citing for the definition of metagame) and it can mean Change (which is the way many competitive gamers commonly use it). So this isn't some "dumb" change that should be limited, if it's been so quickly adopted and has actually expanded strategical discussion in the context of competitive gaming quite a bit.
I think this is just yet another transparent attempt at people trying to claim superiority over a majority base, once again. Such is the plight of the nerd core gaming audience.
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On June 11 2010 06:56 Chef wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 06:41 PokePill wrote:On June 11 2010 06:38 Chef wrote:
Cute has been used that way for at least a few decades. In what way? I never heard it outside of Starcraft used like that In NBA if you did some ridiculous dribble move and crazy pass would the announcers call it cute? In the NFL if you made a 1 handed grab that was boggled and caught between your legs would they call it cute? Etc. They would use the word Amazing, Incredible, Sensational, or something else that is not demeaning to what just happened. If you see a cat lick a dog or something that would be cute. Cute and sly have been interchangeable in a lot of contexts. Like when someone pulls a trick on you, an appropriate response is "ah, very cute," in a slightly sarcastic tone. So when a player pulls a trick on their opponent, doing something unexpected (excessive or showy micro counts), it is pretty normal to call it cute. The word cute isn't demeaning. Girls and guys use it to describe each other, and it usually has connotations of innocence and frivolity, than feebleness or inferiority. Showy micro shows innocence and frivolity, because it shows that the player isn't taking the game stone faced. If there were a find function I could use on all of my books, I would try to get you examples with publication dates but... There's not. I'm just gonna have to hope you've been outside long enough to have heard it used this way. The best thing you can do is ask your parents, or your grand parents if they think cute can be used in this way, since it will show you there's no generational gap.
Yes I don't disagree with what you just said, but it is not used in video games or sports like this because it carriers a connotation of insignificance with it, which is why I describe it as demeaning.
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Anyways I gotta go take care of stuff today, I said what I needed to say. I do believe there is some sort of psychological bias that is being shown here. I believe that the people that bring up stuff like this aren't bringing it up to discuss it openly or intelligently, they are bringing it up to attack/separate themselves in an attempt to boast some kind of intellectual superiority because they can read a wikipedia entry.
On that note I will talk to my friend about this today, he's an English major, receiving his bachelor's, and is also fluent in Spanish. I took two years of Japanese, and have a bit of respectable perspective on language because of it, at least I like to think so, and so does he. We both use metagame this way commonly, and he made note of it, and we discussed it like this a while ago as well. We both discovered that meta can mean change, and that is probably why some gamers started to use it this way, but it is more likely that they used it to describe exploits that are within the games but not necessarily part of the ruleset (wavedashing in super smash melee). After that it was a simple transition to turn those exploits into common strategies and tools to utilize much the same as the programmer-intentioned tools and rules. Thus the competitive community creates it's own rules for how the game should be played, which is always what happens.
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hahaha chill.
this is the worst word of them all. nobody should use the m word.
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metagame being misused is not nearly as bad as people misusing the words "troll" or "push".
Since metagame is somewhat vague in itself, it's not that big of a deal imo. People just like to say metagame instead of 'current strat' or whatever.
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On June 11 2010 07:01 Aberu wrote:
And as I demonstrated, meta can mean Above (which is the way it is used in the example you all have been citing for the definition of metagame) and it can mean Change (which is the way many competitive gamers commonly use it). So this isn't some "dumb" change that should be limited, if it's been so quickly adopted and has actually expanded strategical discussion in the context of competitive gaming quite a bit.
I think this is just yet another transparent attempt at people trying to claim superiority over a majority base, once again. Such is the plight of the nerd core gaming audience.
Meta is a prefix, the prefix does not change within the word it is fixing. Milimeter and Milipede don't both simultaneously mean 1000 or 0.001.
Also the "fucked up", "raped" and others you mentioned are another phenomenon known as metaphors. Which means that the definition of the word is taken into context, usually to parallel with the severity or intensity of the actual situation, eg. "I defeated Day[9]." vs "I raped Day[9]."
NOT, replace the definition of the new word with the old word and keep the old word there.
eg. "The developing normal strategies are roach into hydra w/ banelings" vs. "The metagame consists of roach into hydra w/ banelings" does not work because metagame does not have the same definition as the strategies you expect to see from players.
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If wikipedia is your only citation for the definition of metagame...
Anyways, just because teamliquid is the best site for competitive SC doesn't mean it can just define the term "metagame," even just in terms of SC because a few reputable people in the community say, "this is what it means." Words gain new meaning through popular use. If everyone starts strictly following this rule set, maybe you can consider it the meaning but as of now, metagame means a lot more than what you have defined it as. Based on how often I see it "misused" in gaming, "metagame" is a much broader term than what is defined by the OP.
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I've always thought of metagame as something like, if in a game of rock paper scissors, I threw rock two times in a row and won, whether or not my opponent thinks I will throw rock the third time as well. A synonym would be "leveling." I've never though of metagame as any of the stuff about lag or things outside of standard gameplay. I just call those things extraneous factors.
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Calgary25981 Posts
On June 11 2010 08:19 Shatter wrote:
If wikipedia is your only citation for the definition of metagame...
It's not a real word so what else would you like me to cite outside of the etymology?
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I'm going to take a long shot at trying to apply this definition towards starcraft2. Using Stalkers Blink past rocks[Kulas Ravine] (exploiting part of the game in your favor) is metagaming?
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TBH OP is flawed because it confuses enough to not use it at all instead of showing clear situations where it can be used - you agreed some of your examples aren't correct by adding Failsafe's post.
For me those examples below have no point because they try to force definition, while there are way simplier definitons for those already:
+ Show Spoiler +Example of metagaming: Insulting your opponent's wife, mother, family, etc. to affect their mental state while playing a game.
this is mind games
+ Show Spoiler +Example of metagaming: You cause laggy conditions which are favourable to your playstyle.
this is cheating
+ Show Spoiler +Example of metagaming: A game crashes. Citing information from previous instances, you are able to convince the administrator to rule in your favour.
this is deceiving
OP doesn't have any examples of what someone actually means when he misuses this word:
Even straight Protoss or Terran players might have noticed that theres something slightly wrong with the Zerg design or metagame.
This may mean balance
Oov was, until now, the player with greatest win percentage ever. And his active manipulations of the metagame brought an entirely new dynamic to Starcraft.
Can "his active(?) abusing of current favored strategies" be better here?
I would wait for the metagame standard strategies to develop more to learn other races, because the main benefit of it is understanding how they play and need to act, which changes with the metagame current favored strategies.
So, in short what words should people use instead? I think it should be "current favored strategies" and "mind games".
Can using word "metagame" be limited to to games played by top players only (no commoners), mostly tournaments and Korean progaming?
Offtopic:
like PokePill I think that calling something "cute" is the same as saying it's insignificant.
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this and the trolling thread back to back, awesome!
i do agree, metagame is not only misused but OVERUSED to such a ridiculous degree, which just makes it even more annoying.
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The Posts where the member "metagame" posted- had me rofl.
I mean... I love the responses he got to. Pure comedy.
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I've never seen anyone say metagaming before that's all i know.
As for meta-game I've just always thought of it as the current association of (high level/tournament winning) skills and strategies of a given game.
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On June 11 2010 08:45 cursor wrote:
The Posts where the member "metagame" posted- had me rofl.
I mean... I love the responses he got to. Pure comedy.
ROFL didn't notice he had more posts
only 5 though, surely you could've kept it going
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To me meta-game can mean two things:
1) Meta-game Strategy: Human strategy, beyond the hardcoded possibilities of the game itself. This is something like Nony was describing in his post, on choosing particular builds considering the psychological state of the opponent, even if technically it may be unsound considering a different (moderate) psychological state. eg. Exacerbate the opponent through chat, "dirty play", etc.
2) Meta-game tactics: Using the game in ways not designed. A marine was design to kill something. A supply depot to have supply (at least in SC1). When a supply depot is used to wall off enemies I consider it a meta game tactic. Muta stacking is another classic tactic that I consider meta-game. Gas steal, etc.
No one has to agree with me, but this is the way I see it.
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On June 11 2010 08:38 Chill wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 08:19 Shatter wrote:
If wikipedia is your only citation for the definition of metagame... It's not a real word so what else would you like me to cite outside of the etymology? So my friends and I start using the word "xyz (some made up word)" as a substitute for the word "gigantic." But then some other group of people overhear us and start using "xyz" to mean "anything larger than average." I perfectly understand them when they use the word "xyz" and a lot of people are using the word "xyz" as "anything larger than average" instead of "gigantic." Can I really claim the authority to say that this way is right, you guys aren't using it correctly?
Without any standardized definition, I don't think you can override popular use. Even if the basic definition at one point or another meant something slightly different, there is no official definition for the word. The OP gave some "correct" definitions of the word "metagame" that I would not use the word for but I can't definitively say it is wrong, just not a way I would use the word.
I say use the word in accordance to what you think it means. People will understand what you mean when you use the word, even if it's "wrong" according to the OP.
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On June 11 2010 08:51 alexpnd wrote:
2) Meta-game tactics: Using the game in ways not designed. A marine was design to kill something. A supply depot to have supply (at least in SC1). When a supply depot is used to wall off enemies I consider it a meta game tactic. Muta stacking is another classic tactic that I consider meta-game. Gas steal, etc.
No one has to agree with me, but this is the way I see it.
I struggle to find words to describe how much this offends me. That is so arbitrary... It's like you've purposely chosen the most nonsensical way to use the word. When you talk to people, are you often offended that no one understands you?
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Calgary25981 Posts
On June 11 2010 08:57 Shatter wrote:Show nested quote +On June 11 2010 08:38 Chill wrote:On June 11 2010 08:19 Shatter wrote:
If wikipedia is your only citation for the definition of metagame... It's not a real word so what else would you like me to cite outside of the etymology? So my friends and I start using the word "xyz (some made up word)" as a substitute for the word "gigantic." But then some other group of people overhear us and start using "xyz" to mean "anything larger than average." I perfectly understand them when they use the word "xyz" and a lot of people are using the word "xyz" as "anything larger than average" instead of "gigantic." Can I really claim the authority to say that this way is right, you guys aren't using it correctly? Without any standardized definition, I don't think you can override popular use. Even if the basic definition at one point or another meant something slightly different, there is no official definition for the word. The OP gave some "correct" definitions of the word "metagame" that I would not use the word for but I can't definitively say it is wrong, just not a way I would use the word. I say use the word in accordance to what you think it means. People will understand what you mean when you use the word, even if it's "wrong" according to the OP.
It's a compound word from two defined words, meaning the definition is clear.
Edit: Excuse me, a prefix and a word.
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