EPTthe word METAGAME - Page 5
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Senx
Sweden5901 Posts
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Failsafe
United States1298 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:07 GGTeMpLaR wrote: I think you're underestimating the power of slang it is so powerful it can create new words, or create new meanings for a word you must continue this fight if you wish to restore the purity to the word "metagame", else it will fall into darkness forever as it adopts it's new form Chill is completely right. The new uses of metagame suck. Metagame has ceased to be a useful word because it has come to mean a bunch of things that we already have other words for. Now we have nothing that only refers to what we called "metagame." It's like stupidity and the internet have coalesced to create 1984. For further explanation: I could use "banana" to mean any and everything but that wouldn't mean that my new banana language is a language worth having. Every sentence reads "banana banana banana banana banana." How much information did you get from that sentence? | ||
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avilo
United States4100 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:13 Senx wrote: I do feel like this is a case where the wikipedia page simply is made/edited by someone missinformed. yah, prob edited by a casual player | ||
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Wonderballs
Canada253 Posts
In other words, by doing x outside the game, you gain advantage y in the game. The most common "meta-game" in gaming is learning your opponents playstyle before facing off against them. By doing research(x), you gain an advantage(y) by knowing how your opponent plays before you play him. Meta-game also does not "change" over time.... THE meta-game changes on a per-instance basis. (also there is no limit on how many meta-games can be present) Ala: Starcraft: use my example of researching your opponents as the meta-game School exam: sucking your professors dick for an A on your exam is a meta-game Sports: taking more steroids than the opposing team is a meta-game | ||
Chill
Calgary25998 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:01 rei wrote: By your definition, Savior's match fixing is just part of his metagame. By your definition, metagame does not neccessary need to respect the idea of fair play. By your definition, Cheating is part of the metagame. Chill you need to put a boundary/limit on kind of "outside force that influence the game" so that the term metagame being use is still relevent and in context to the game (sc or sc2 in our case) in question. Chill you need a better definition for metagame to be used in context of sc1 and sc2 strategies. Nony's post is in context of sc2 strategies. Your definition contents contexts that is outside of sc2 strategy. Nony defined metagame in starcraft strategy better than You did. Well, it was never really my intention to define it relative to Starcraft. My examples are Starcraft-related because that's the game I know the best  Don't you think it's good that we have a definition related to Starcraft strategies and one that isn't? Now you can understand both and understand the full meaning of the word!Why did you capitalize You? I'm not a God. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25998 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:13 Failsafe wrote: Chill is completely right. The new uses of metagame suck. Metagame has ceased to be a useful word because it has come to mean a bunch of things that we already have other words for. Now we have nothing that only refers to what we called "metagame." It's like stupidity and the internet have coalesced to create 1984. For further explanation: I could use "banana" to mean any and everything but that wouldn't mean that my new banana language is a language worth having. Every sentence reads "banana banana banana banana banana." How much information did you get from that sentence? This is the driver of my fight. If we let words slide into whatever meaning the speaker wants then we lose meaningful information. The metagame is a cool and interesting topic of discussion, I don't want it to become synonymous with "standard strategy"  | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
Honestly, I like mind game better anyway. It's harder to misinterpret, and less attractive to use all willy nilly. People like saying meta-game because they think it makes them sound smart. + Show Spoiler + Of course I'm not saying mind game and meta-game mean exactly the same thing. I just think mind game suffices in most situations. | ||
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elmizzt
United States3309 Posts
On June 11 2010 05:55 Chill wrote: I'm getting my definition from the definition. Where are you getting your definition? That's so meta! | ||
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PokePill
United States1048 Posts
Since there is a relevant subject and I've put off bringing it up for a very long time: You seem to really not like the use of the word metagame, but I strongly dislike your use of the word "cute." You use it to describe almost any form of micro or any time an interesting trick done in Starcraft. Not only is this demeaning, it has a negative female connotation or certain level of unimportance to it when a "cute" trick can be game breaking at times. I would have made a thread about this but you are a moderator and I do not want to anger you. I'm not sure whether you started the rampant misuse of the word "cute" like Tasteless did with "metagame" but your original TSL casts definitely made the word misused more, and it continues to this day. Even day[9] misuses it regularly now in his own casts. I just wanted to bring this to light and see your thoughts are on this. Maybe it's a cultural thing where "cute" isn't used to mean attractive especially by means of smallness or prettiness or quaintness but no other gaming community misuses the word "cute" like the Starcraft community. | ||
TheMango
United States1967 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:32 PokePill wrote: Chill, Since there is a relevant subject and I've put off bringing it up for a very long time: You seem to really not like the use of the word metagame, but I strongly dislike your use of the word "cute." You use it to describe almost any form of micro or any time an interesting trick done in Starcraft. Not only is this demeaning, it has a negative female connotation or certain level of unimportance to it when a "cute" trick can be game breaking at times. I would have made a thread about this but you are a moderator and I do not want to anger you. I'm not sure whether you started the rampant misuse of the word "cute" like Tasteless did with "metagame" but your original TSL casts definitely made the word misused more, and it continues to this day. Even day[9] misuses it regularly now in his own casts. I just wanted to bring this to light and see your thoughts are on this. Maybe it's a cultural thing where "cute" isn't used to mean attractive especially by means of smallness or prettiness or quaintness but no other gaming community misuses the word "cute" like the Starcraft community. metagaming trolling, how cute... ...dont ban me intrigue/chill | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
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Wonderballs
Canada253 Posts
On June 11 2010 05:35 Failsafe wrote: The best definition of metagame is Metagame: Playing your opponent. When you say something like "playing the game outside the game" you omit the fact that you can play the game outside the game from within the game. Yes this is totally right. If you check out the word "Meta-emotion" it parallels this exactly. Meta-emotion refers to the emotional reactions to one's own emotions (second-order emotions about primary emotions). An example would be being angry (the primary emotion) and being afraid of one's anger (the meta-emotion). the primary game: Starcraft the meta-game: Your opponent You are playing Starcraft (the primary game), your reaction to this game (the meta-game) would be to play against this particular opponent in a certain way. | ||
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PokePill
United States1048 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:38 Chef wrote: Cute has been used that way for at least a few decades. In what way? I never heard it outside of Starcraft used like that In NBA if you did some ridiculous dribble move and crazy pass would the announcers call it cute? In the NFL if you made a 1 handed grab that was boggled and caught between your legs would they call it cute? Etc. They would use the word Amazing, Incredible, Sensational, or something else that is not demeaning to what just happened. If you see a cat lick a dog or something that would be cute. | ||
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
Metagame to me, and many other competitive gamers (using that as context for the sake of discussion), MEANS the development process of strategies, counter-strategies, and utilizing exploits or things once thought useless and making them useful... etc... You KNOW how were are using it and why, but you decide to insult a large number of people by attempting to claim we are uneducated, when you are uneducated as to the effects of context on the English language, and how new definitions are added to dictionaries quite often. | ||
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Chill
Calgary25998 Posts
That's bricking jambalaya. | ||
micronesia
United States24773 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:42 Aberu wrote: Seriously, the English language is so free form, why are you guys going into semantics about this? You can apply context to change the definition within a sentence in the English language. Metagame to me, and many other competitive gamers (using that as context for the sake of discussion), MEANS the development process of strategies, counter-strategies, and utilizing exploits or things once thought useless and making them useful... etc... You KNOW how were are using it and why, but you decide to insult a large number of people by attempting to claim we are uneducated, when you are uneducated as to the effects of context on the English language, and how new definitions are added to dictionaries quite often. Wow this post was so eggplant. Yeah that didn't really make sense but I'm going to get people to start saying it until eggplant means what I want it to. Granted this is a ridiculous example but we have a right to try the limit the shift of language for really stupid reasons. | ||
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rei
United States3594 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:24 Chill wrote: Why did you capitalize You? I'm not a God. It is not intentional, a typo. And yes if you are wondering, i am the one kill both you and kennigit 2v1. This is an achievement of a life time that I will brag on forever! | ||
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jellyfish
United States149 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:42 Aberu wrote: Seriously, the English language is so free form, why are you guys going into semantics about this? You can apply context to change the definition within a sentence in the English language. Metagame to me, and many other competitive gamers (using that as context for the sake of discussion), MEANS the development process of strategies, counter-strategies, and utilizing exploits or things once thought useless and making them useful... etc... You KNOW how were are using it and why, but you decide to insult a large number of people by attempting to claim we are uneducated, when you are uneducated as to the effects of context on the English language, and how new definitions are added to dictionaries quite often. Dictionaries and encyclopedias exist for a reason. They're a sign that a distinction exists between using a language flexibly and misusing it. If tl's commandments say English is the official language, I don't see why the mods can't enforce an official English over what would be, at its generous best, a sub-dialect of English. For my part, I'm annoyed at the overuse of "metagame" because I can understand what it means when Chill et al explain it, but get confused when its bandied about willy-nilly on the strategy forums T_T | ||
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Aberu
United States968 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:47 micronesia wrote: Wow this post was so eggplant. Yeah that didn't really make sense but I'm going to get people to start saying it until eggplant means what I want it to. Granted this is a ridiculous example but we have a right to try the limit the shift of language for really stupid reasons. But that's an unreasonable analogy. I mean if you go so literally with semantics like that, saying get raped, or got owned, or get fucked up, or any of that gamer-slang is stupid. Meta as a prefix could either mean above or change. In the way competitive gamers slang the usage of metagame, it's more like change. It's more like we created our own word using the same prefix. Metagame is the development of strategies. "The current state of the metagame has gone from roach hydra mass to nydus worms and drops combined with ultralisk play and infestors" Is an example. Doesn't the word "meta" being used as game-changing make sense now? On June 11 2010 06:53 jellyfish wrote: Dictionaries and encyclopedias exist for a reason. They're a sign that a distinction exists between using a language flexibly and misusing it. If tl's commandments say English is the official language, I don't see why the mods can't enforce an official English over what would be, at its generous best, a sub-dialect of English. For my part, I'm annoyed at the overuse of "metagame" because I can understand what it means when Chill et al explain it, but get confused when its bandied about willy-nilly on the strategy forums T_T From a historical perspective of the English language and the evolution of the dictionaries collection of definitions and words ever-changing, doesn't it seem rather short-sighted and ignorant to pass off the competitive gamers' definition of Metagame as mere ignorance? | ||
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Chef
10810 Posts
On June 11 2010 06:41 PokePill wrote: In what way? I never heard it outside of Starcraft used like that In NBA if you did some ridiculous dribble move and crazy pass would the announcers call it cute? In the NFL if you made a 1 handed grab that was boggled and caught between your legs would they call it cute? Etc. They would use the word Amazing, Incredible, Sensational, or something else that is not demeaning to what just happened. If you see a cat lick a dog or something that would be cute. Cute and sly have been interchangeable in a lot of contexts. Like when someone pulls a trick on you, an appropriate response is "ah, very cute," in a slightly sarcastic tone. So when a player pulls a trick on their opponent, doing something unexpected (excessive or showy micro counts), it is pretty normal to call it cute. The word cute isn't demeaning. Girls and guys use it to describe each other, and it usually has connotations of innocence and frivolity, than feebleness or inferiority. Showy micro shows innocence and frivolity, because it shows that the player isn't taking the game stone faced. If there were a find function I could use on all of my books, I would try to get you examples with publication dates but... There's not. I'm just gonna have to hope you've been outside long enough to have heard it used this way. The best thing you can do is ask your parents, or your grand parents if they think cute can be used in this way, since it will show you there's no generational gap. | ||
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