US Politics Feedback Thread - Page 312
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KwarK
United States40776 Posts
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GreenHorizons
United States21791 Posts
On May 19 2021 02:52 LegalLord wrote: Is it about time to move the Israel talk into a separate thread? Pages and pages of this discussion on a topic whose relation to US Pol seems tangential at best. The history lesson Kwark provided was certainly helpful for nearly all of us, but my interest was in the US role which I'd think is still a topic for the US politics thread? Like how the US responds to the bombing of the AP offices in Gaza or whatever? | ||
Jockmcplop
United Kingdom8726 Posts
On May 19 2021 05:50 GreenHorizons wrote: The history lesson Kwark provided was certainly helpful for nearly all of us, but my interest was in the US role which I'd think is still a topic for the US politics thread? Like how the US responds to the bombing of the AP offices in Gaza or whatever? The US role is still more appropriate in the Israe/Palestine thread imo. Problem is, any discussion of the subject at all is going to lead to long debates about Israel in general and all the subjects we've just seen. I like the new thread. I can stay out of it instead of getting riled up about the subject. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21791 Posts
On May 19 2021 05:51 Jockmcplop wrote: The US role is still more appropriate in the Israe/Palestine thread imo. Problem is, any discussion of the subject at all is going to lead to long debates about Israel in general and all the subjects we've just seen. I like the new thread. I can stay out of it instead of getting riled up about the subject. I think the conversation was fine save for JimmiC's posting which is what's been crapping up the thread a lot lately imo. For reference, the discussion started here: https://tl.net/forum/general/532255-us-politics-mega-thread?page=3219 EDIT: Rereading through it MWY wasn't very helpful either. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22806 Posts
On May 19 2021 05:55 GreenHorizons wrote: I think the conversation was fine save for JimmiC's posting which is what's been crapping up the thread a lot lately imo. For reference, the discussion started here: https://tl.net/forum/general/532255-us-politics-mega-thread?page=3219 I always appreciate your unbiased and thorough analysis. | ||
Broetchenholer
Germany1821 Posts
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Nebuchad
Switzerland11352 Posts
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28261 Posts
Still - it is best to avoid ad hominems. But I'm not gonna insist that you shouldnt be upset or angry - I think you should be both. ☺ | ||
farvacola
United States18768 Posts
On May 19 2021 21:35 Nebuchad wrote: I think we did fine The point y’all were making came through, for what my reader’s opinion is worth | ||
JimmiC
Canada22806 Posts
On May 19 2021 21:38 Liquid`Drone wrote: It is a difficult topic to cordially discuss.. My best suggestion to everyone involved is to, if they feel they are about to make an overly aggressive post, is to reread it and see if they really have to include that part. But frankly, I think getting upset here is positive. You're not supposed to be so jaded that people aruing for bombing children makes you think 'meh'. Still - it is best to avoid ad hominems. But I'm not gonna insist that you shouldnt be upset or angry - I think you should be both. ☺ This is a quote from you on the new thread. Amusingly, I've yet to see anyone defend this practice, even guys that are solidly on the side of Israel. That is because the vast majority of the people you and others have accused of supporting Israel are not doing it unequivocally. They all in various degrees disagree with what Israel has done and is doing. There are very few people who have been yelled down who are "solidly on the side of Israel" you and your woke crew have just decided anyone who is not 100% with you and your rhetoric are 100% against you and its silly. In my case I'm just trying to point out that Israel is not pure evil and pointing out factual inaccuracies. I was trying to point out, and will continue too that the Israelis are not an evil people and do not deserve to be hated the way they are. The discussion becomes terrible when you and others assume peoples intentions and treat them as facts. Most of the arguments are not about what people are saying, it is about what you and others who consider themselves morally superior believe the other people saying. Even worse than that many of you hold grudges and will continue this pattern with all future discussions. Edit: the last time I experienced this was when I was younger and going to church camps and was arguing that gay people were OK and not all awful. I was treated by them the same way I am (and others) being treated right now. You guys should really stop patting yourselves on the back. You are scoring internet points with your cool buddies and no increasing understanding and certainly not pushing anyone in your direction. You are not taking anytime or making any effort to understand anyone else point of view. You are deciding it for them then yelling and insulting them about it. The people that already agree with oyu and think your cool think it is great, congrats you are the bullies! | ||
Acrofales
Spain17186 Posts
And no, I haven't read the thread! | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28261 Posts
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Broetchenholer
Germany1821 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22806 Posts
On May 19 2021 23:01 Liquid`Drone wrote: Jimmy, did I accuse you of being solidly on the side of Israel? Of course not, that would be direct. You have not directly said that to anyone. You have left it open ended. But it is clear that many people think I am and when you do that it hits me and others. You also are all about civil conversation and so on, but when Kwark starts talking about promptly fucking my mother you fall silent. Who are the people "solidly on the side of Israel"? And what is their position. I doubt very few people can accurately describe those people positions because instead of using the basic communication model (acknowledge, question, confirm) they use the question piece for attempted gotcha's and they use the confirm to assert a position on the person. There is no mutual understanding so it is people talking beside each other and mostly insulting. It is disturbing how many of you consider yourselves and how proud many of you are at how you are bullying someone online. | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28261 Posts
One thing we can try to keep in mind is - and this is with the goal of hindering 'pile-ons'- which is a real issue, is that.. if others have posted virtually the same thing you intend on posting, you might not have to post it. I get that sometimes a lot of people start their posts within a similar time frame so they might not have seen others' posts before they're done writing their own, so this is kind of a 'this is just the nature of forums'- kind of thing. But sometimes it's actually avoidable, too. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22806 Posts
I challenge anyone here who has been piling on Magicpowers to write out his position, that he would agree is his position. If you can't, you don't understand his position. Unlike many people he has not dodged, and he has tried to defend against the accusations. I can't do it, I'm confused on what it is because the whole convo for days now is him saying something and someone else saying he means "x". | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28261 Posts
On May 19 2021 23:22 JimmiC wrote: Of course not, that would be direct. You have not directly said that to anyone. You have left it open ended. But it is clear that many people think I am and when you do that it hits me and others. You also are all about civil conversation and so on, but when Kwark starts talking about promptly fucking my mother you fall silent. Who are the people "solidly on the side of Israel"? And what is their position. I doubt very few people can accurately describe those people positions because instead of using the basic communication model (acknowledge, question, confirm) they use the question piece for attempted gotcha's and they use the confirm to assert a position on the person. There is no mutual understanding so it is people talking beside each other and mostly insulting. It is disturbing how many of you consider yourselves and how proud many of you are at how you are bullying someone online. Well, I'll clarify once and for all. I'm more aligned with you politically than I am with any of the guys you accuse of bullying you, other than I guess myself. GH is revolutionary, I'm not. Neb kinda, too, and he's certainly less about reconciliation and getting together than I am. I'm pretty certain Kwark voted conservatory in the UK - I've voted left of Corbyn every election of my life. It very rarely happens that I read a post of yours and think 'that's a stupid political opinion'. My issues with you are 100% related to how you post, not what you think, and it's the same issue that repeats itself over and over and over, including in this very exchange we're having right now. You make assumptions about what other people think and then you write long posts based on those assumptions and even if confronted on those assumptions being wrong, you double down, insisting that your assumption was the right one even if you get corrected. Further, you're completely incapable of letting stuff go. I'm an English teacher and I don't want to wrongly use literally, but I think literally every time you've directed a post towards GH in the past.. year? longer?, it's been some kind of stupid, misplaced stab where you want him to criticize China or Venezuela instead of the US. This is why I think it's absolutely laughable to see you complain about Kwark taking your posts out of context and targeting you with 'gotcha' posts, because from my perspective, you are the single poster on the forum most guilty of doing just that. At least out of the 1000 or so posters whose posting habits I have any impression of, anyway. (I actually just checked. In the USPol megathread, you've mentioned Maduro 162 times and Venezuela 255 times and an actual majority of these are attempts at needling GH.) It has made me not want to discuss with you - and this generally makes me avoid responding to you. It's also generally not very interesting to discuss with you, because in terms of political opinion, I hardly ever find myself disagreeing in any meaningful way. This is direct feedback that I give to you because you in the very post I am responding to are essentially accusing me of being indirect in my communication. But no, I can also confirm that when I wrote 'amusingly even the guys solidly on the side of Israel don't support the settlements', then I did not even remotely have you in mind. | ||
Broetchenholer
Germany1821 Posts
On May 19 2021 23:34 JimmiC wrote: Agreed Broetchenholer, that you are even asking is amazing. Most of the people are so self-righteous, that they would never even consider if they are wrong, or misinterpreted anyone, instead they assume the persons clarification is a lie and continue down their original path. I challenge anyone here who has been piling on Magicpowers to write out his position, that he would agree is his position. If you can't, you don't understand his position. Unlike many people he has not dodged, and he has tried to defend against the accusations. I can't do it, I'm confused on what it is because the whole convo for days now is him saying something and someone else saying he means "x". You mean, what i believe his stance is [b]and[/] what he would agree with what his stance is? That's really tough. I think he believes his stance is that it is complicated, that both sides are shitty but that Israel has no choice but to be shitty. Here is where we started to discuss with him, because that no choice option seemed not logical to us. As to the part about Dresden i think he just messed up. I think he did not know exactly what we meant with Dresden, tried to argue against bombings of Germany in general and when he realized what we actually meant, backpedaled. But i can't say. | ||
JimmiC
Canada22806 Posts
On May 20 2021 00:29 Broetchenholer wrote: You mean, what i believe his stance is [b]and[/] what he would agree with what his stance is? That's really tough. I think he believes his stance is that it is complicated, that both sides are shitty but that Israel has no choice but to be shitty. Here is where we started to discuss with him, because that no choice option seemed not logical to us. As to the part about Dresden i think he just messed up. I think he did not know exactly what we meant with Dresden, tried to argue against bombings of Germany in general and when he realized what we actually meant, backpedaled. But i can't say. I wouldn't actually consider you one of the people piling on, since you are attempting to understand. I also think you should be careful on the word "us". Some of the people piling on are about the "no choice" some are piling on that both sides are shitty. That "us" is not one that I would want to be a part of, nor is it one I would put you in. I'm also not sure that is his position, when it started on this thread it appeared that his position was that Hamas is purposely increasing the civilian casualties. Which is more or less true, but is also pretty much a a requirement of urban guerilla warfare and what every group who can't win a standard fight does. They hide in places that would make the other side the bad guys to retaliate. To me this is one of those things that if instead of arguing that it is false, it would have been more effective to understand it and then argue about why they have too and how every other group has. (the asking civilians to say in their places after they were warned about attacks is pretty questionable though, I'm not sure any other group has so publicly and directly asked for civilians including children to be martyrs). I think basically every group has hid around the civilians in every attempt to fight for their freedom. IRA, Lehi, Viet Cong, whoever. The rest is hard to know because the rest of the discussion was some one attributed a position to MP and him arguing that it was not his position and then trying different ways of explaining it. I was lost most of the time, so he would have to answer it, it was like people were reading what they though he meant instead of the words on their screen. You could very well be right on that part as when you are being attacked by multiple people, most thinking the absolute worst of you, it is hard to combat. My main point is "Is the goal to make Magicpowers feel like a jerk? Is it too show him that is is wrong? Is it to show him how very smart we are? Is it to convince him of something?" I'm guessing most people would want the goal to be the 4th one. But very few people used a method remotely likely for success. Instead they used a method guaranteed to do the first, very unlikely to do the second, and most certainly not the 4th. You don't change peoples mind by insulting them and telling them how horrible they are, that does the opposite. You also can't overcome anyone objections if you don't know them, you end trying to overcome objections they don't have and instead just letting them know you don't care what they think because you consider yourself so above them that what they say does not matter because you know better then them what they think and feel. (I'm in no way saying you are doing this, I think you are not.) This is exactly why Bernie does so terrible with poor people in the US and so well with white middle class college educated people. He has an army of volunteers who go out and tell people how they feel and who they should support. He needs to have people going out and asking people how they feel and explaining how his policies will help those problems. | ||
GreenHorizons
United States21791 Posts
On May 19 2021 23:53 Liquid`Drone wrote: + Show Spoiler + Well, I'll clarify once and for all. I'm more aligned with you politically than I am with any of the guys you accuse of bullying you, other than I guess myself. GH is revolutionary, I'm not. Neb kinda, too, and he's certainly less about reconciliation and getting together than I am. I'm pretty certain Kwark voted conservatory in the UK - I've voted left of Corbyn every election of my life. It very rarely happens that I read a post of yours and think 'that's a stupid political opinion'. My issues with you are 100% related to how you post, not what you think, and it's the same issue that repeats itself over and over and over, including in this very exchange we're having right now. You make assumptions about what other people think and then you write long posts based on those assumptions and even if confronted on those assumptions being wrong, you double down, insisting that your assumption was the right one even if you get corrected. Further, you're completely incapable of letting stuff go. I'm an English teacher and I don't want to wrongly use literally, but I think literally every time you've directed a post towards GH in the past.. year? longer?, it's been some kind of stupid, misplaced stab where you want him to criticize China or Venezuela instead of the US. This is why I think it's absolutely laughable to see you complain about Kwark taking your posts out of context and targeting you with 'gotcha' posts, because from my perspective, you are the single poster on the forum most guilty of doing just that. At least out of the 1000 or so posters whose posting habits I have any impression of, anyway. (I actually just checked. In the USPol megathread, you've mentioned Maduro 162 times and Venezuela 255 times and an actual majority of these are attempts at needling GH.) + Show Spoiler + It has made me not want to discuss with you - and this generally makes me avoid responding to you. It's also generally not very interesting to discuss with you, because in terms of political opinion, I hardly ever find myself disagreeing in any meaningful way. This is direct feedback that I give to you because you in the very post I am responding to are essentially accusing me of being indirect in my communication. But no, I can also confirm that when I wrote 'amusingly even the guys solidly on the side of Israel don't support the settlements', then I did not even remotely have you in mind. I knew it was a lot (too many imo) but damn. | ||
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