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On May 12 2021 09:56 Mohdoo wrote:
If Biden was smart he'd just give Israel and Palestine our least populated states and give Israel to Iceland. If Jews and Muslims can't play nice over their holy land, neither of them get it.
I don't think there's any good strategy when it comes to negotiating with religious extremists, especially when it takes the form of human interlopers preventing them from obtaining something that they believe their god wants them to have. Both sides being punished won't deter them, because they're crazy; they aren't rational actors.
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On May 12 2021 12:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2021 09:56 Mohdoo wrote:
If Biden was smart he'd just give Israel and Palestine our least populated states and give Israel to Iceland. If Jews and Muslims can't play nice over their holy land, neither of them get it. I don't think there's any good strategy when it comes to negotiating with religious extremists, especially when it takes the form of human interlopers preventing them from obtaining something that they believe their god wants them to have. Both sides being punished won't deter them, because they're crazy; they aren't rational actors.
If both of their religious books say Jerusalem is theirs as guaranteed by god, there's no solution. Someone needs to win and we need to move on.
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I think the US's consistent support of Israel in the face of their relentless violations of Palestinian human rights is absolutely deplorable.
EDIT:If both of their religious books say Jerusalem is theirs as guaranteed by god, there's no solution. Someone needs to win and we need to move on.
What does "win" mean in that context?
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On May 12 2021 14:54 Mohdoo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2021 12:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 12 2021 09:56 Mohdoo wrote:
If Biden was smart he'd just give Israel and Palestine our least populated states and give Israel to Iceland. If Jews and Muslims can't play nice over their holy land, neither of them get it. I don't think there's any good strategy when it comes to negotiating with religious extremists, especially when it takes the form of human interlopers preventing them from obtaining something that they believe their god wants them to have. Both sides being punished won't deter them, because they're crazy; they aren't rational actors. If both of their religious books say Jerusalem is theirs as guaranteed by god, there's no solution. Someone needs to win and we need to move on.
I find it very interresting that this has been an area of conflict since long before Muhammad was born. It is a crossroad of powerful civilisations in the armpit of the mediterranian ocean, and the different religions make it even worse.
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This conflict is mostly about land, religion just makes it even more vicious.
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How much of the US's unconditional support for Israel is due to religion? I know some in the previous administration were quite open in their belief that the Jews controlling Jerusalem would bring The Second Coming, but I don't know how prevalent that is or if it's shaped our policy significantly.
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Well, you can’t ignore the fact that american jewish population is quite influent and many of them are unconditional supporters of Israel.
The US overzealous support of Israel can be explained by the fact that, well, it’s a democracy and a segment of its population cares beyond measure on it being an ally of Israel no matter what. It won’t stop until there is a serious national discussion about the fact that aligning with Israel’s colonial interests is a disservice to the perennity of Israel’s existence. The best thing America could do for Israel would be to stop it from oppressing palestinians, but most people don’t think that far.
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My Take away: Politicians are killing people to keep their power and narrative. On both sides.
But "Iron Dome" at night looks SciFi as fuck.
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On May 12 2021 21:43 KT_Elwood wrote:
My Take away: Politicians are killing people to keep their power and narrative. On both sides.
But "Iron Dome" at night looks SciFi as fuck.
yeah. insane technological masterpiece.
the situation on the ground is beyond insane though. in this conflict there are only losers.
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I don't know if describing Israel's systemically violent subjugation and removal of Palestinians from their homes by way of an illegal military occupation and authoritarian apartheid policing as a "conflict" quite captures what is happening.
It's genocidal settler-colonialism very akin to the history of Manifest Destiny in the US from my perspective.
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On May 12 2021 18:04 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Well, you can’t ignore the fact that american jewish population is quite influent and many of them are unconditional supporters of Israel.
The US overzealous support of Israel can be explained by the fact that, well, it’s a democracy and a segment of its population cares beyond measure on it being an ally of Israel no matter what. It won’t stop until there is a serious national discussion about the fact that aligning with Israel’s colonial interests is a disservice to the perennity of Israel’s existence. The best thing America could do for Israel would be to stop it from oppressing palestinians, but most people don’t think that far.
My understanding is that it is just as much about the different large Christian groups regarding Israel as the holy land which can do nothing wrong by definition. I would love to read up on the subject, though, it is very interesting!
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On May 12 2021 22:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
I don't know if describing Israel's systemically violent subjugation and removal of Palestinians from their homes by way of an illegal military occupation and authoritarian apartheid policing as a "conflict" quite captures what is happening.
It's genocidal settler-colonialism very akin to the history of Manifest Destiny in the US from my perspective.
Substitute Russia or China with US in relation to current events.
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On May 12 2021 22:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
I don't know if describing Israel's systemically violent subjugation and removal of Palestinians from their homes by way of an illegal military occupation and authoritarian apartheid policing as a "conflict" quite captures what is happening.
It's genocidal settler-colonialism very akin to the history of Manifest Destiny in the US from my perspective.
Feels a bit one-sided to me considering that Israel multiple times tried to negotiate peace or a status quo and only started settling after repeated aggressions after conquering an area in a provoked conflict. Not saying that the continued escalations, occuptions and racist laws are justified in any way, but it's not like the Palestinians didn't funnel this civil war by violent aggression apparently supported by the majority who voted a terrorist group with a no-compromise policy.
I'm not trying to say that Israel are the good guys, far from it. My point is that both sides are terrible and alternate at keeping this conflict alive. Which like you say isn't much of a conflict at all, because Israel won it in 67.
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On May 12 2021 23:47 Archeon wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2021 22:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
I don't know if describing Israel's systemically violent subjugation and removal of Palestinians from their homes by way of an illegal military occupation and authoritarian apartheid policing as a "conflict" quite captures what is happening.
It's genocidal settler-colonialism very akin to the history of Manifest Destiny in the US from my perspective. Feels a bit one-sided to me considering that Israel multiple times tried to negotiate peace or a status quo and only started settling after repeated aggressions after conquering an area in a provoked conflict. Not saying that the continued escalations, occuptions and racist laws are justified in any way, but it's not like the Palestinians didn't funnel this civil war by violent aggression apparently supported by the majority who voted a terrorist group with a no-compromise policy. I'm not trying to say that Israel are the good guys, far from it. My point is that both sides are terrible and alternate at keeping this conflict alive. Which like you say isn't much of a conflict at all, because Israel won it in 67.
That actually sounds a lot like the story I was taught about the history of western expansion in the US. My hope would be that the US not be a part of something like that again.
US military, economic, and political support for Israel has been indispensable to the perpetuation of their horrific crimes against Palestinian people and I think it is far past the time to demand that it stops.
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On May 12 2021 12:56 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 12 2021 09:56 Mohdoo wrote:
If Biden was smart he'd just give Israel and Palestine our least populated states and give Israel to Iceland. If Jews and Muslims can't play nice over their holy land, neither of them get it. I don't think there's any good strategy when it comes to negotiating with religious extremists, especially when it takes the form of human interlopers preventing them from obtaining something that they believe their god wants them to have. Both sides being punished won't deter them, because they're crazy; they aren't rational actors.
If things had been fair, a bunch of Germany should have been given rather than occupied lands.
It looks like a religious conflict but it is not as religion took a major importance in the arabic world in the last decades but fondamentaly it is a secular conflict between a colonial state who is stealing and slaughtering and the oppressed.
Tbf, I have no idea how you can reduce this to a religious conflict, Islam has become a identity symbol of resistance. Ofc, I prefer the more secular vision of the PLO but it is what it is.
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On May 13 2021 00:52 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 13 2021 00:32 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 12 2021 23:47 Archeon wrote:On May 12 2021 22:28 GreenHorizons wrote:
I don't know if describing Israel's systemically violent subjugation and removal of Palestinians from their homes by way of an illegal military occupation and authoritarian apartheid policing as a "conflict" quite captures what is happening.
It's genocidal settler-colonialism very akin to the history of Manifest Destiny in the US from my perspective. Feels a bit one-sided to me considering that Israel multiple times tried to negotiate peace or a status quo and only started settling after repeated aggressions after conquering an area in a provoked conflict. Not saying that the continued escalations, occuptions and racist laws are justified in any way, but it's not like the Palestinians didn't funnel this civil war by violent aggression apparently supported by the majority who voted a terrorist group with a no-compromise policy. I'm not trying to say that Israel are the good guys, far from it. My point is that both sides are terrible and alternate at keeping this conflict alive. Which like you say isn't much of a conflict at all, because Israel won it in 67. That actually sounds a lot like the story I was taught about the history of western expansion in the US. My hope would be that the US not be a part of something like that again. US military, economic, and political support for Israel has been indispensable to the perpetuation of their horrific crimes against Palestinian people and I think it is far past the time to demand that it stops. Why do you demand this, but do not demand it of China in Uighur? Or China with HK? What is it that makes Israel so much worse than China? Or do you think the world should also condem China in the way you want them to Israel? And what is your solution? In China they would just have to give the Uighurs freedom to practice their religion and stop killing and reeducating them. With Israel and Palestine neither is willing to live with the other and both believe it is their god given right to the land. This war has been going on with various actors for 1000's of years.
Whataboutism + transforming a colonial conflict into a religious one, noice.
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EPT
