EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3221
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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ZerOCoolSC2
9052 Posts
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Silvanel
Poland4751 Posts
If the question really is "whether or not things are going to escalate" then the answer is "yes, i think they will". | ||
KwarK
United States43964 Posts
On May 15 2021 02:06 Silvanel wrote: Full war with whom? Palestine isnt capable of waging war against Israel. Its more akin to uprising/militant strike than anything, its asymmetrical conflict in which one side is vastly superior to the other. One side is trying to hurt civilians because they cant match their oponent militarily and the other is trying to target militants because of publicity. If the question really is "whether or not things are going to escalate" then the answer is "yes, i think they will". I don’t think it’s fair to describe Israel as only targeting militants because that ignores the reality that in peacetime Israel is bulldozing homes for settlements. If there were no militants then armed Israeli forces would still be destroying the homes of Palestinian of civilians. That’s why the conflict is happening. Both sides are targeting civilians. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
On May 15 2021 01:30 ZerOCoolSC2 wrote: Does anyone think the Israel and Palestine conflict is going to escalate into full war soon? Depends what you mean by a full war. What's the point when you would delineate between a "conflict" a "war" and a "full war". Military actions have been taken and actions of warfare have been undertaken. It is already a war. It's not like it can be claimed that the actions of Isreal was undertaken without the knowledge or support of its government or that the Isreali military is decentralised. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4751 Posts
On May 15 2021 03:16 KwarK wrote: I don’t think it’s fair to describe Israel as only targeting militants because that ignores the reality that in peacetime Israel is bulldozing homes for settlements. If there were no militants then armed Israeli forces would still be destroying the homes of Palestinian of civilians. That’s why the conflict is happening. Both sides are targeting civilians. Well to some degree of course. Isreal is known for destroying homes of suicide bombers and militants, agressive settlments, retaliatory strikes etc. They are willing to accept civilian casulties that thing is sure. But they are not targeting civilians as goal per se, not the way for example germans used to target polish or russian population in WWII. | ||
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KwarK
United States43964 Posts
On May 15 2021 04:29 Silvanel wrote: Well to some degree of course. Isreal is known for destroying homes of suicide bombers and militants, agressive settlments, retaliatory strikes etc. They are willing to accept civilian casulties that thing is sure. But they are not targeting civilians as goal per se, not the way for example germans used to target polish or russian population in WWII. They are targeting civilians per se, though not like the Einsatzgruppen. They’re not rolling into a village and making the villagers dig a mass grave, nobody is alleging that. But they are destroying the homes of Palestinians, forcing them from their land, building an Israeli settlement on that land, and then presenting it as a fait accompli whenever anyone complains. They’ve learned that once you get an Israeli civilian in a home nobody will make them evict them from that land and return it to the previous owners. Whenever anyone suggests it it gets compared to giving America back to Native Americans or something equally absurd as if the old owner isn’t still alive and the new owner didn’t just move in. Palestine and the Palestinian people are being systematically eroded. Civilians are the target here. Just because they’re not being lined up and shot doesn’t mean they’re not a target. They’re not getting protection under the law, that’s why the militants have such support. When Palestinian militants destroy the homes of Israeli civilians it’s not viewed as a terror attack, it’s viewed as justice. Israel isn’t just accidentally destroying houses while targeting militants, it’s deliberately targeting civilians for displacement and replacement. | ||
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Silvanel
Poland4751 Posts
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MWY
Germany284 Posts
On May 15 2021 04:38 KwarK wrote: They are targeting civilians per se, though not like the Einsatzgruppen. They’re not rolling into a village and making the villagers dig a mass grave, nobody is alleging that. But they are destroying the homes of Palestinians, forcing them from their land, building an Israeli settlement on that land, and then presenting it as a fait accompli whenever anyone complains. They’ve learned that once you get an Israeli civilian in a home nobody will make them evict them from that land and return it to the previous owners. Whenever anyone suggests it it gets compared to giving America back to Native Americans or something equally absurd as if the old owner isn’t still alive and the new owner didn’t just move in. Palestine and the Palestinian people are being systematically eroded. Civilians are the target here. Just because they’re not being lined up and shot doesn’t mean they’re not a target. They’re not getting protection under the law, that’s why the militants have such support. When Palestinian militants destroy the homes of Israeli civilians it’s not viewed as a terror attack, it’s viewed as justice. Israel isn’t just accidentally destroying houses while targeting militants, it’s deliberately targeting civilians for displacement and replacement. In a war context, everybody reading about targeting civilians understands intentionally killing civilians. What you say is technically not wrong, but by saying both sides are targeting civilians you are somewhat equalizing two very different things. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
I think one of the purposes of the attacks on the State of Israel and Jewish citizens is to make the citizens suffer to such a degree that they no longer support their own government, and as a result demand a different direction on a number of matters, including evictions, Gaza, religious freedom, and more. The Israeli government however doesn't appear to be too phased by the attacks, so I'm not expecting anything to come from any of this. What should the government do? While it certainly has quite a record of misdeeds, it's not exactly like their main foe (Hamas) is a peace-loving group of diplomats. The attacks are considered pure acts of terrorism, and that'd mean any sort of negotiation is out of the question. But I somehow doubt Hamas see it that way, considering the history of displacement of Palestinian Arabs. I don't envy the people who are trying to work towards a peaceful resolution to this conflict. It's one big mess. | ||
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Dangermousecatdog
United Kingdom7084 Posts
Isreal won in 1967 and since that time is the greatest military force in the area, more powerful than the rest of its neighbours combined. Meanwhile the Gaza Strip has essentially been blockaded by Isreal for years. The IDF yesterday dropped 80 tons of explosives in one day. What does Hamas have in comparison? The power disparity is vastly greater than USA vs Iraq. The West Bank isn't even a contiguous area anymore, it has been divided into segments as Isreal pleases. | ||
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Erasme
Bahamas15899 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8074 Posts
On May 15 2021 22:27 Dangermousecatdog wrote: It's not a matter of survival that Isreal is forcefully colonising the West Bank. Isreal has won a long time ago. The only matter of survival is on the Palestinian side as they are they only ones who are being displaced and blockaded and utterly helpless to prevent it. Isreal won in 1967 and since that time is the greatest military force in the area, more powerful than the rest of its neighbours combined. Meanwhile the Gaza Strip has essentially been blockaded by Isreal for years. The IDF yesterday dropped 80 tons of explosives in one day. What does Hamas have in comparison? The power disparity is vastly greater than USA vs Iraq. The West Bank isn't even a contiguous area anymore, it has been divided into segments as Isreal pleases. To have been in Israel several times and having had an israeli girlfriend for a while, I can testify that the Israeli have a siege mentality and see their country as a threatened island in an ocean of hostile neighbours. It’s not particularly rational. Also, the people I met were completely traumatized by the second intifada. They were children when buses were exploding right and left and grew up with a reaction of fear when an arab would board the bus. My view has been since then that the only hope is international pressure on Israel, and a radical change from the US. I think the intifada has broken the last hopes for a peace not dictated to Israel from abroad. Too many people there see the palestinians as an ennemy and a danger against whom any will to compromise is a mortal weakness. | ||
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Sermokala
United States14110 Posts
I don't know what a "good" outcome even looks like anymore | ||
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Simberto
Germany11822 Posts
I don't know which one of these two is less likely. | ||
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Godwrath
Spain10142 Posts
On May 15 2021 15:54 Magic Powers wrote: I think one of the purposes of the attacks on the State of Israel and Jewish citizens is to make the citizens suffer to such a degree that they no longer support their own government, and as a result demand a different direction on a number of matters, including evictions, Gaza, religious freedom, and more. I doubt it. Terror attack themselves won't give that result but the oppossite. They are mostly propaganda for recruitment and keep the movement alive. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8074 Posts
On May 16 2021 02:18 Godwrath wrote: I doubt it. Terror attack themselves won't give that result but the oppossite. They are mostly propaganda for recruitment and keep the movement alive. Yeah terror attacks have cemented a generation of israeli into the belief that palestinians were the ennemy and a mortal threat. The second Intifada has basically buried all perspective of a peaceful solution to the conflict in our lifetime. In that regard, the palestinian leadership has historically been amazing at shooting themselves in the foot. Every bus full of children and every coffee shop that has been bombed has been putting Palestinians one step further from getting treated fairly. | ||
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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Magic Powers
Austria4478 Posts
They're currently in the process of gaining complete political control over Gaza. Their attacks are motivated by that, although not only that. What Israel has been doing to Gaza over the decades is a direct consequence of its legitimate fear of groups like Hamas. They have enemies from different directions and from within, despite not all of those having direct ties to one another. Their air defense system isn't perfect, an estimated 10-25% of rockets or missiles get through, and the technology of the attackers is improving. Hamas with their attacks have an effect on the leadership and direction of the Israeli government. They benefit from an overly aggressive leadership as much as from a weakened one. What Hamas don't want is for Israel to act in a way that would definitively paint Hamas as the only group in the whole conflict that's in the wrong, unless that gives them a realistic chance to reclaim the lost land, which at this moment is unrealistic (and they most likely know that). Knowing that Israel's situation is so delicate motivates Hamas to continue their efforts. They also know that Israel moving into Gaza to end the conflict is a bad decision, even though Israel would certainly come out victorious, it'd also come at too great of a cost, and Israel can't afford to weaken itself this much knowing they still have other enemies to worry about. | ||
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