EPTUS Politics Mega-thread - Page 3222
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Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets. Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source. If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread | ||
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Severedevil
United States4839 Posts
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JimmiC
Canada22817 Posts
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KwarK
United States44353 Posts
On May 16 2021 10:24 JimmiC wrote: Considering it's either 2000bc or 1500bc when judism started in the area, the natives could be both. In case you were not aware this is not NA where ships cane to a new land and took over. It's 4000 years of history. This goes way back from the formation of now Israel after ww2. Edit: also, Israel is not even that homogeneous, it is near the middle in both ethnic and religious diversity. In no way does this make what they are doing right, but pointing out how inaccurate many of these tropes are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level Are you using the Arab victims of Israeli occupation to argue that Israel is a diverse state right now? | ||
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WombaT
Northern Ireland27459 Posts
On May 16 2021 10:24 JimmiC wrote: Considering it's either 2000bc or 1500bc when judism started in the area, the natives could be both. In case you were not aware this is not NA where ships cane to a new land and took over. It's 4000 years of history. This goes way back from the formation of now Israel after ww2. Edit: also, Israel is not even that homogeneous, it is near the middle in both ethnic and religious diversity. In no way does this make what they are doing right, but pointing out how inaccurate many of these tropes are. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_ranked_by_ethnic_and_cultural_diversity_level Innumerable other groups go way back all over the place, things shift and are in flux all the time. I suppose built into the nation state is a structural inability to share territory, but an Israeli state that was a home to Jews who wished to live there and a custodian over various holy sites that lie there and held shared governance with those that already lived there, over the outright ruler there and you mitigate many of these problems. The stoking of religious or nationalist fervour is too potent for people to resist doing so and hence such compromises, which are quite practically realisable become de facto impossibilities. Seeing it in my land, and have historically of course and it will doubtless continue, and probably lead to a United Ireland in my lifetime. Is the argument ever centred around a functioning country that respects the dual identities that dominate (and others), no. It’s wanking off over the Union Flag or the Tricolour because both sides just have to have that win. Fuck the rest of us. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8195 Posts
On May 16 2021 13:33 KwarK wrote: Are you using the Arab victims of Israeli occupation to argue that Israel is a diverse state right now? 20% of israeli citizens are arabs though. They is a difference to be made between palestinians per say and israeli arabs who have the same constitutional rights as their jewish counterparts. The Deputy leader of the Knesset is arab, and so is one of the supreme court justices. Since 2004 every state run company must have at least an arab in their leading board. It’s not for saying it’s great or absolve Israel but you guys paint the situation with such a broad brush, it becomes impossible to understand anything at all. | ||
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MWY
Germany284 Posts
On May 16 2021 08:35 Severedevil wrote: I mean, sure, Israel is a colonial ethnostate bent on cleansing the native population. But the natives are fighting back, so it's really a both sides situation with very fine people on many sides. 1. What a shitpost. 2. So youre comparing israeli people to nazis in the usa? How is antisemitism handled in here? | ||
Liquid`Drone
Norway28902 Posts
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MWY
Germany284 Posts
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22630 Posts
On May 16 2021 18:51 MWY wrote: Do not confuse criticisms of the state and government of Israel with hatred for Jews in general.1. What a shitpost. 2. So youre comparing israeli people to nazis in the usa? How is antisemitism handled in here? This is the quintessential defence used by Israel whenever people point out they are doing something bad. Throw their hands up and shout antisemitism. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22630 Posts
On May 16 2021 19:07 MWY wrote: My search foo might be failing me but... no one is saying that? Okay when "every jew in israel is equal to/worse than a nazi" isnt the line, then where is it exactly? Is it at "Push them all back into the ocean"? Care to source your claims about the current discussion? | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8195 Posts
On May 16 2021 18:53 Liquid`Drone wrote: Being critical of Israel sure as hell isn't considered anti-Semitism, that's for sure. It’s really two different things to criticize a country or to call its people nazis. I am sure we can agree that there is a difference between saying that Norway treated the samis appalingly and to say that Norwegians are really fine people, wink wink. And again, it’s not to defend Israel. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8195 Posts
On May 16 2021 19:09 Gorsameth wrote: My search foo might be failing me but... no one is saying that? Care to source your claims about the current discussion? What do you understand from that post: On May 16 2021 08:35 Severedevil wrote: I mean, sure, Israel is a colonial ethnostate bent on cleansing the native population. But the natives are fighting back, so it's really a both sides situation with very fine people on many sides. I might be thick but to me it looks like he compared israeli and Charlotteville nazis, really. And the notion that there are no, indeed, fine people on both sides in this story - consudering both sides are whole countries - is textbook racism. Of fucking course there are. | ||
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MWY
Germany284 Posts
On May 16 2021 19:07 Gorsameth wrote: Do not confuse criticisms of the state and government of Israel with hatred for Jews in general. This is the quintessential defence used by Israel whenever people point out they are doing something bad. Throw their hands up and shout antisemitism. Using the famous "very fine people on both sides" quote is NOT critisicm of either state or government, but clearly a comparison to israels inhabitants, which according to the poster, are only jews. The quote is taken from Trump during a nazi-riot /demonstration if im correct. | ||
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Gorsameth
Netherlands22630 Posts
On May 16 2021 19:17 MWY wrote: Yes I know where it comes from, I merely saw it as using a recent term to describe a comparison between the conflict with natives in the US and Israel/Palastine.Using the famous "very fine people on both sides" quote is NOT critisicm of either state or government, but clearly a comparison to it's inhabitants, which according to the poster, are only jews. The quote is taken from Trump during a nazi-riot /demonstration if im correct. But ok, I can see how that specific use of phrase can be seen like that. point taken. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28902 Posts
On May 16 2021 19:07 MWY wrote: Okay when "every jew in israel is equal to/worse than a nazi" isnt the line, then where is it exactly? Is it at "Push them all back into the ocean"? I don't see 'every jew in Israel' being mentioned in what you quoted. I see it as a statement that the Israeli side is 'worse' than the other side. I think it was intended as a tongue in cheek comment not really worthy of deeper analysis tbh. Anyway, even though there's a difference between 'Israel' and 'jews', and that being critical of Israel is fine but blanket statements targeted towards 'jews' are not, it's also not that easy of a distinction to make. Seeing how Israel is a democracy and how the settlements have considerable support (last I checked it was fairly evenly divided), it's not like the population as a whole is innocent here. But anyway, I think a better parallel would be a statement like 'Americans are war-mongering' prior to the invasion of Iraq. It's not a perfect statement - iirc something like one third, so 100+ million Americans were opposed, and that nuance is lost - but it's certainly not a statement that would have been moderated because it's hateful towards Americans. (I mean, if you want to argue that Palestinian support of Hamas - which is also considerable, is 'damning' in a similar manner, I think that's a logically consistent point of view, but one I disagree with, because I think it's very understandable that an oppressed population supports more extreme policies than those supported by the oppressor.) | ||
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BlackJack
United States10574 Posts
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Biff The Understudy
France8195 Posts
It’s a political problem of historical complexity that has extremely deep roots; name calling 6 million people with inaccurate blanket statements is just pueril. Generally speaking, transforming complex political issues into binary moral ones with no curiosity whatsoever about what are the mechanism that led to the issue other than « X are so mean » is the bane of this thread. | ||
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stilt
France2755 Posts
On May 16 2021 19:17 MWY wrote: Using the famous "very fine people on both sides" quote is NOT critisicm of either state or government, but clearly a comparison to israels inhabitants, which according to the poster, are only jews. The quote is taken from Trump during a nazi-riot /demonstration if im correct. Denying the ethnic cleasing is quite a fallacy, this is a colonial state who based his existence on a ethnie which makes it obsessed with genetics and more and more ruled by a religious far right who expulses or slaughters the palestinian. And when they fought back you called them stupid and pitied Israel lol, 1 to 15, that's your current ratio. Hypocrisy at its finest is complaining about terrorism while being the biggest one. My gf is a christian libanese who had been traumatized with tsahal bombing, she is a full supporter of the hezbollah who fought efficiently against tsahal in 2006 and I totally support her. | ||
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Biff The Understudy
France8195 Posts
On May 16 2021 20:19 stilt wrote: Denying the ethnic cleasing is quite a fallacy, this is a colonial state who based his existence on a ethnie which makes it obsessed with genetics and more and more ruled by a religious far right who expulses or slaughters the palestinian. And when they fought back you called them stupid and pitied Israel lol, 1 to 15, that's your current ratio. Hypocrisy at its finest is complaining about terrorism while being the biggest one. My gf is a christian libanese who had been traumatized with tsahal bombing, she is a full supporter of the hezbollah who fought efficiently against tsahal in 2006 and I totally support her. Yeah and my ex grew up an israeli kid that almost died in the bombing of the coffee shop down the street but I’m not dumb enough to blanket support Tsahal because of it. Your post is so binary, manichean and simplistic it actually hurts the eyes. | ||
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Liquid`Drone
Norway28902 Posts
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