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Statement: AP ‘horrified’ by Israeli attack on its office
NEW YORK (AP) — An Israeli airstrike destroyed a high-rise building in Gaza City that housed offices of The Associated Press and other media outlets on Saturday. All AP employees and freelancers evacuated the building safely.
AP President and CEO Gary Pruitt has released the following statement:
We are shocked and horrified that the Israeli military would target and destroy the building housing AP’s bureau and other news organizations in Gaza. They have long known the location of our bureau and knew journalists were there. We received a warning that the building would be hit.
The Israeli government says the building contained Hamas military intelligence assets. We have called on the Israeli government to put forward the evidence. AP’s bureau has been in this building for 15 years. We have had no indication Hamas was in the building or active in the building. This is something we actively check to the best of our ability. We would never knowingly put our journalists at risk.
We are seeking information from the Israeli government and are engaged with the U.S. State Department to try to learn more.
This is an incredibly disturbing development. We narrowly avoided a terrible loss of life. A dozen AP journalists and freelancers were inside the building and thankfully we were able to evacuate them in time.
The world will know less about what is happening in Gaza because of what happened today.
the first casualty of war? the truth. or in this case people trying - to the best of their abilities - to report it.
messed up shit to bomb that building on such short notice.
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The Israeli government says the building contained Hamas military intelligence assets. We have called on the Israeli government to put forward the evidence.
jfc I heard that repeated uncritically in US media so many times even I assumed it was an established fact, not something the AP (who had their offices bombed) would dispute and expect evidence from Israel on.
Even if the AP was wrong and they were in the same building as "Hamas military intelligence assets", flattening the building is absurd.
The world will know less about what is happening in Gaza because of what happened today.
Also can't help but see that as at least part of the point.
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On May 17 2021 03:01 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +The Israeli government says the building contained Hamas military intelligence assets. We have called on the Israeli government to put forward the evidence. jfc I heard that repeated uncritically in US media so many times even I assumed it was an established fact, not something the AP (who had their offices bombed) would dispute and expect evidence from Israel on. Even if the AP was wrong and they were in the same building as "Hamas military intelligence assets", flattening the building is absurd. Show nested quote +The world will know less about what is happening in Gaza because of what happened today.
Also can't help but see that as at least part of the point.
That or it had to be something really important to Hamas there. I mean you won't just silence reports about Gaza by blowing up a building and everbody should have known that doing this will have a terrible look and backlash. You even risk killing journalists. It just seems like a really stupid thing to do.
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On May 17 2021 01:01 MWY wrote:
...I have not once stated any position towards the israeli government...
Yeah, that's the problem. You have nothing to say about a group of people that is being oppressed, replaced and persecuted but you'll look for any opportunity you can to bring up Hamas or rocket attacks or antisemitism.
On May 16 2021 18:51 MWY wrote:
2. So youre comparing israeli people to nazis in the usa? How is antisemitism handled in here?
On May 16 2021 21:34 MWY wrote:
...Denying that the israeli people are victims of f.e. rocket attacks or bombings or even wars a couple years back doesn't really do you any favors...
On May 17 2021 04:35 MWY wrote:
That or it had to be something really important to Hamas there...
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Northern Ireland23899 Posts
On May 17 2021 02:55 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 02:37 WombaT wrote:On May 16 2021 22:36 JimmiC wrote:On May 16 2021 18:53 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Being critical of Israel sure as hell isn't considered anti-Semitism, that's for sure. Very true, but it is also very true that some of the people who do are anti-Semitic. It is very similar to the dog whistle concept of racism in the US, some people have found that if they replace the word Jew with Israel they can say the same thing and get support from the left (and there are many anti-Semites in the left as well) that they could not get if they just said Jew. Jews still experience the most hate crimes in the US, more than Muslims, gays and so on. It is not a small problem. And also appropriate to discuss. They’re relatively easy to distinguish though, especially given more discussion and more time. Likewise it’s pretty apparent whose criticisms of China are rooted in concerns for human rights and whose have Siniphobia underpinning them. That said it is of course to be vigilant over anti-Semitism of course I don't think it is that easy, because lots of people themselves are unaware of their own biases. And then also people tend to support and give the benefit of the doubt to people who share a view. So if someone is really against Israel's governments behavior they are going to be less likely to notice if some of the people they consider on their side are not only against that. Consistency is probably the easiest to see. Why someone might have one reaction to one group and not another, but given all the nuance and complexity you can never find exact apples to apples solutions. It is important for everyone to look at their own views and what biases might be impacting them as none of us are free of them. And it is equally ignorant to think all anti Israel talk is anti-Semitic as it is to think that none of it is. There are obviously the obvious cases of people shooting up a synagogue or punching a random Asian lady in the street. But most biases are not nearly as plain for anyone too see, especially when people engage in word play and are unwilling to answer clarifying questions.
That is an important quest to seek and recognise biases, for sure. So long as a quest for consistency doesn’t degenerate into ‘you say x is doing a bad thing but why are you saying nothing about y?’, which is how supposed consistency is so oft demanded.
My own particular biases tend toward those who purport to hold higher values be judged accordingly, and those with more power should wield it justly. Added to Jews being the most historically persecuted ethnic group in history, makes some of Israel’s behaviour the more galling.
Biases can more direct one’s focus to a particular scenario that resonates, it doesn’t have to preclude analysing others through a consistent moral framework.
I also happen to live in a (rare) country in which the United States wielded its diplomatic chops to help resolve a conflict and measurably improve things through mediating. An effort that was no doubt pushed along by a large and influential Irish-American cohort, so the contrast with the US and Israel in this regard can hardly be more pronounced.
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On May 17 2021 04:35 MWY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 03:01 GreenHorizons wrote:The Israeli government says the building contained Hamas military intelligence assets. We have called on the Israeli government to put forward the evidence. jfc I heard that repeated uncritically in US media so many times even I assumed it was an established fact, not something the AP (who had their offices bombed) would dispute and expect evidence from Israel on. Even if the AP was wrong and they were in the same building as "Hamas military intelligence assets", flattening the building is absurd. The world will know less about what is happening in Gaza because of what happened today.
Also can't help but see that as at least part of the point. That or it had to be something really important to Hamas there. I mean you won't just silence reports about Gaza by blowing up a building and everbody should have known that doing this will have a terrible look and backlash. You even risk killing journalists. It just seems like a really stupid thing to do.
At this point it doesn't even matter what they put out. People that are willing to buy it anyway will go with any intel that gets produced and those that won't believe it will say the intel is faked. Everybody else will scratch their head not knowing what to believe. In the end the building is leveled and it looks like there will be 0 meaningful response to it.
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Some people may not be aware that most of the Arab world (not people) is antisemitic to the core. And when I say "antisemitic", that in most cases means murder and genocide, and at the least it means discrimination and persecution. Jews are essentially not welcome in Arab countries. Just because some Arabs would like to be welcoming of them in their private lives, that doesn't mean Jews could feel safe living side by side with them in Arab countries. Rare exceptions involve what is called "Jews in name only" (e.g. Jews who act as antagonists and/or spies against the State of Israel).
And yes, as JimmiC states correctly, sympathizers are also considered enemies and would be killed as well given the chance. The Arab world (again, not necessarily all the people) doesn't take kindly to people they consider traitors.
What the Jewish government does to Palestinians and in particular to Gaza can be condemned. But to say that their actions are definitively worse than those of their enemies? That requires quite some ignorance, if not outright denial of the history between Jews and Arabs.
Even in London alarming antisemitic actions have been witnessed in recent days, with people in rallies flying the flag of Palestine while calling for the rape and murder of Jewish people.
The day when Jews can feel safe in their home towns is far. They've been under attack for so long that it's become normal for them.
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On May 17 2021 11:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Some people may not be aware that most of the Arab world (not people) is antisemitic to the core. And when I say "antisemitic", that in most cases means murder and genocide, and at the least it means discrimination and persecution. Jews are essentially not welcome in Arab countries. Just because some Arabs would like to be welcoming of them in their private lives, that doesn't mean Jews could feel safe living side by side with them in Arab countries. Rare exceptions involve what is called "Jews in name only" (e.g. Jews who act as antagonists and/or spies against the State of Israel).
And yes, as JimmiC states correctly, sympathizers are also considered enemies and would be killed as well given the chance. The Arab world (again, not necessarily all the people) doesn't take kindly to people they consider traitors.
What the Jewish government does to Palestinians and in particular to Gaza can be condemned. But to say that their actions are definitively worse than those of their enemies? That requires quite some ignorance, if not outright denial of the history between Jews and Arabs.
Even in London alarming antisemitic actions have been witnessed in recent days, with people in rallies flying the flag of Palestine while calling for the rape and murder of Jewish people.
The day when Jews can feel safe in their home towns is far. They've been under attack for so long that it's become normal for them.
I don't know much about the plight of Jews in the middle east, but this is definitely not true for Northern Africa.
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On May 17 2021 15:08 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 11:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Some people may not be aware that most of the Arab world (not people) is antisemitic to the core. And when I say "antisemitic", that in most cases means murder and genocide, and at the least it means discrimination and persecution. Jews are essentially not welcome in Arab countries. Just because some Arabs would like to be welcoming of them in their private lives, that doesn't mean Jews could feel safe living side by side with them in Arab countries. Rare exceptions involve what is called "Jews in name only" (e.g. Jews who act as antagonists and/or spies against the State of Israel).
And yes, as JimmiC states correctly, sympathizers are also considered enemies and would be killed as well given the chance. The Arab world (again, not necessarily all the people) doesn't take kindly to people they consider traitors.
What the Jewish government does to Palestinians and in particular to Gaza can be condemned. But to say that their actions are definitively worse than those of their enemies? That requires quite some ignorance, if not outright denial of the history between Jews and Arabs.
Even in London alarming antisemitic actions have been witnessed in recent days, with people in rallies flying the flag of Palestine while calling for the rape and murder of Jewish people.
The day when Jews can feel safe in their home towns is far. They've been under attack for so long that it's become normal for them. I don't know much about the plight of Jews in the middle east, but this is definitely not true for Northern Africa.
Not many Jews can be found in Africa today, and among the reasons is that they faced antisemitism and displacement. They largely settled in Israel and many non-Arab countries around the world, with only few staying behind in Africa. Over the course of the 20th century their numbers in Arab countries (mainly in the Middle East but also Africa) dwindled from estimates of a few hundred thousand to almost none, with very few exceptions. And I wouldn't count on those exceptions to last.
When I say Jews aren't welcome in the Arab world, I do mean that in the literal sense, and it's not exclusive to the Middle East.
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On May 17 2021 11:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Some people may not be aware that most of the Arab world (not people) is antisemitic to the core. And when I say "antisemitic", that in most cases means murder and genocide, and at the least it means discrimination and persecution. Jews are essentially not welcome in Arab countries. Just because some Arabs would like to be welcoming of them in their private lives, that doesn't mean Jews could feel safe living side by side with them in Arab countries. Rare exceptions involve what is called "Jews in name only" (e.g. Jews who act as antagonists and/or spies against the State of Israel).
And yes, as JimmiC states correctly, sympathizers are also considered enemies and would be killed as well given the chance. The Arab world (again, not necessarily all the people) doesn't take kindly to people they consider traitors.
What the Jewish government does to Palestinians and in particular to Gaza can be condemned. But to say that their actions are definitively worse than those of their enemies? That requires quite some ignorance, if not outright denial of the history between Jews and Arabs.
Even in London alarming antisemitic actions have been witnessed in recent days, with people in rallies flying the flag of Palestine while calling for the rape and murder of Jewish people.
The day when Jews can feel safe in their home towns is far. They've been under attack for so long that it's become normal for them.
The problem with these statements in absolutes is that it misses the historical context. The tensions between the arab world and Israel started before Israel was even founded. There were Jewish extremists trying to create Israel themselves before the second world war poisoning the well. Then they were injected into that land and with that it all started to really deteriorate. Was the state of Israel the target of war and terror from arab world, yes. Did they have to fear for their existence? Yes. Could they have prevented that from happening in the first place? Probably not. Could they have tried harder to ease tensions and start a new with he arab world? Yes.
In the last twenty years, Israel has made everything continously worse. They have to deal with people, that want them gone , but they want them gone, because of their inactions at least. The arab world does not hate them without cause and while it is clear that there is no simple solution to any of this, making it progressively worse for arab Israelis is certainly not the right way.
You are ertainly not sounding anti-arabic in your post. In Israel, Arab people have been violently attacked by Jewish people. Is Israel anti-arabic then? It certainly is true, that anti-semitism is on the rise again and we have to speak up against it. But it makes no sense to warn of hatred towards jews and then paint the arab world with the broadest brush possible and in the darkest colours. Just look who comes out of the woodwork when people report about the failings of countries like currently Lebanon. I hate nothing more then a neonazi, but saying that "most" arab states would genocide Jews and all their sympathizers is the same as saying all Jews are nazis.
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On May 17 2021 15:42 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 15:08 Acrofales wrote:On May 17 2021 11:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Some people may not be aware that most of the Arab world (not people) is antisemitic to the core. And when I say "antisemitic", that in most cases means murder and genocide, and at the least it means discrimination and persecution. Jews are essentially not welcome in Arab countries. Just because some Arabs would like to be welcoming of them in their private lives, that doesn't mean Jews could feel safe living side by side with them in Arab countries. Rare exceptions involve what is called "Jews in name only" (e.g. Jews who act as antagonists and/or spies against the State of Israel).
And yes, as JimmiC states correctly, sympathizers are also considered enemies and would be killed as well given the chance. The Arab world (again, not necessarily all the people) doesn't take kindly to people they consider traitors.
What the Jewish government does to Palestinians and in particular to Gaza can be condemned. But to say that their actions are definitively worse than those of their enemies? That requires quite some ignorance, if not outright denial of the history between Jews and Arabs.
Even in London alarming antisemitic actions have been witnessed in recent days, with people in rallies flying the flag of Palestine while calling for the rape and murder of Jewish people.
The day when Jews can feel safe in their home towns is far. They've been under attack for so long that it's become normal for them. I don't know much about the plight of Jews in the middle east, but this is definitely not true for Northern Africa. Not many Jews can be found in Africa today, and among the reasons is that they faced antisemitism and displacement. They largely settled in Israel and many non-Arab countries around the world, with only few staying behind in Africa. Over the course of the 20th century their numbers in Arab countries (mainly in the Middle East but also Africa) dwindled from estimates of a few hundred thousand to almost none, with very few exceptions. And I wouldn't count on those exceptions to last. When I say Jews aren't welcome in the Arab world, I do mean that in the literal sense, and it's not exclusive to the Middle East.
[citation needed]
I mean... you can say the same for Jews in post-WW2 Europe. They mostly left for Israel. I don't think that has much to do with remaining anti-semitism in Europe, and rather that they felt energized to be able to return to the promised land, as well as Israel's very overt advertising (as well as incentivizing the move). And obviously the horrors of the holocaust fresh in their mind and resentment that wherever they had lived just let that happen (or more often, collaborated with the Nazis to expedite it). Nevertheless, post-WW2 Europe was pretty much united in trying to make up for the holocaust they had done. The political sentiment was definitely not one in which Jews needed to fear another holocaust happening. But obviously the mere fact that it *had* happened made them feel unwelcome, even in the new political climate.
North African Jews were mostly spared the Holocaust, but obviously Arab-Israeli hostilities in the Middle East shaped decades of foreign policy for Arabic nations. But I don't htink you can heap together the anti-Israeli politics with anti-semitism in general. My wife is Moroccan and she really dislikes Israel, but is proud about how Morocco maintains and protects its Jewish population and feels no animosity toward them. What she was taught (and with her all Moroccan children) is very obviously anti-Israeli and she is adamant about how it was an illegal land grab facilitated by the colonial powers and to the detriment of the Palestinean Arabs. She has some very strong feelings against the state of Israel but has no dislike whatsoever with Jews as such or Moroccan Jews in particular. And while she is very liberal, her family is a very very conservative family and hold similar sentiment. I can't claim to have much more than anecdotal evidence of Morocco's treatment of Jews, or of Egypt's treatment of Jews, but I don't think you can point to emigration to Israel as a sign of anti-semitism.
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On May 17 2021 07:09 BlackJack wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 01:01 MWY wrote:
...I have not once stated any position towards the israeli government... Yeah, that's the problem. You have nothing to say about a group of people that is being oppressed, replaced and persecuted but you'll look for any opportunity you can to bring up Hamas or rocket attacks or antisemitism. Show nested quote +On May 16 2021 18:51 MWY wrote:
2. So youre comparing israeli people to nazis in the usa? How is antisemitism handled in here? Show nested quote +On May 16 2021 21:34 MWY wrote:
...Denying that the israeli people are victims of f.e. rocket attacks or bombings or even wars a couple years back doesn't really do you any favors...
Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 04:35 MWY wrote:
That or it had to be something really important to Hamas there...
Those were literally just responses to people with a black and white view who thought israel = bad, palestinians = good (besides the last one, which as not justifying the attack either by the way). Things that israel did and does wrong get mentioned plentiful in here already and I'm not arguing against most of it. If you want to see me as a diehard israel supporter, fine, but be aware that that is completely wrong and should probably tell your more about your attitude and reflectiveness than about me.
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On May 17 2021 11:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Some people may not be aware that most of the Arab world (not people) is antisemitic to the core. And when I say "antisemitic", that in most cases means murder and genocide, and at the least it means discrimination and persecution. Jews are essentially not welcome in Arab countries. Just because some Arabs would like to be welcoming of them in their private lives, that doesn't mean Jews could feel safe living side by side with them in Arab countries. Rare exceptions involve what is called "Jews in name only" (e.g. Jews who act as antagonists and/or spies against the State of Israel).
And yes, as JimmiC states correctly, sympathizers are also considered enemies and would be killed as well given the chance. The Arab world (again, not necessarily all the people) doesn't take kindly to people they consider traitors.
What the Jewish government does to Palestinians and in particular to Gaza can be condemned. But to say that their actions are definitively worse than those of their enemies? That requires quite some ignorance, if not outright denial of the history between Jews and Arabs.
Even in London alarming antisemitic actions have been witnessed in recent days, with people in rallies flying the flag of Palestine while calling for the rape and murder of Jewish people.
The day when Jews can feel safe in their home towns is far. They've been under attack for so long that it's become normal for them.
Going back through the last roughly 1500 years, this has by the way not only been the case in the arab world but in almost all european countries aswell. There have been progroms against jews in the middle ages already and that continued almost all throughout history with some exceptions were some kings tried to protect them atleast for a while (by f.e. literally walling a jewish quarter off inside a city to make them somewhat safe). It all just shifted in the western countries after WW2 and learning about the Holocaust. Even closely before WW2 many western countries denied jewish refugees that tried to flee from nazi germany entry.
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On May 17 2021 17:24 Acrofales wrote:
[citation needed]
From Wikipedia:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geography_of_antisemitism#Africa
Algeria:
"Upon independence in 1962 only Muslims were permitted Algerian citizenship, and 95% of Algeria's 140,000 Jewish population left."
Egypt:
"In 1948, approximately 75,000 Jews lived in Egypt. About 100 remain today, mostly in Cairo. In 1948, Jewish neighborhoods in Cairo suffered bomb attacks that killed at least 70 Jews. Hundreds of Jews were arrested and had their property confiscated. The 1954 Lavon Affair, in which Israelis and Egyptian Jews were arrested for bombing Egyptian and American targets served as a pretext for further persecution of the remaining Jewish community in Egypt. After the 1956 Suez Crisis, Egypt expelled over 25,000 Jews, confiscated their property, and about 3,000 were imprisoned. About 1,000 more were imprisoned or detained. In 1967, Jews were detained and tortured, and Jewish homes were confiscated as emigration continued. Egypt was once home of one of the most dynamic Jewish communities in their diaspora."
Libya:
"In 1948, about 38,000 Jews lived in Libya.
A series of pogroms started in November 1945, when more than 140 Jews were killed in Tripoli and most synagogues in the city looted. The pogroms continued in June 1948, when 15 Jews were killed and 280 Jewish homes destroyed.[9]
Upon Libya's independence in 1951, most of the Jewish community emigrated. After the Suez Crisis in 1956, another series of pogroms forced all but about 100 Jews to flee. When Muammar al-Gaddafi came to power in 1969, all remaining Jewish property was confiscated and all debts to Jews cancelled.
Although the main synagogue in Tripoli was renovated in 1999, it has not reopened for services. The last Jew in Libya, Esmeralda Meghnagi died in February 2002. Israel is home to about 40,000 Jews of Libyan descent, who maintain unique traditions."
Need I go on?
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On May 17 2021 17:02 Broetchenholer wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 11:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Some people may not be aware that most of the Arab world (not people) is antisemitic to the core. And when I say "antisemitic", that in most cases means murder and genocide, and at the least it means discrimination and persecution. Jews are essentially not welcome in Arab countries. Just because some Arabs would like to be welcoming of them in their private lives, that doesn't mean Jews could feel safe living side by side with them in Arab countries. Rare exceptions involve what is called "Jews in name only" (e.g. Jews who act as antagonists and/or spies against the State of Israel).
And yes, as JimmiC states correctly, sympathizers are also considered enemies and would be killed as well given the chance. The Arab world (again, not necessarily all the people) doesn't take kindly to people they consider traitors.
What the Jewish government does to Palestinians and in particular to Gaza can be condemned. But to say that their actions are definitively worse than those of their enemies? That requires quite some ignorance, if not outright denial of the history between Jews and Arabs.
Even in London alarming antisemitic actions have been witnessed in recent days, with people in rallies flying the flag of Palestine while calling for the rape and murder of Jewish people.
The day when Jews can feel safe in their home towns is far. They've been under attack for so long that it's become normal for them. The problem with these statements in absolutes is that it misses the historical context. The tensions between the arab world and Israel started before Israel was even founded. There were Jewish extremists trying to create Israel themselves before the second world war poisoning the well. Then they were injected into that land and with that it all started to really deteriorate. Was the state of Israel the target of war and terror from arab world, yes. Did they have to fear for their existence? Yes. Could they have prevented that from happening in the first place? Probably not. Could they have tried harder to ease tensions and start a new with he arab world? Yes. In the last twenty years, Israel has made everything continously worse. They have to deal with people, that want them gone , but they want them gone, because of their inactions at least. The arab world does not hate them without cause and while it is clear that there is no simple solution to any of this, making it progressively worse for arab Israelis is certainly not the right way. You are ertainly not sounding anti-arabic in your post. In Israel, Arab people have been violently attacked by Jewish people. Is Israel anti-arabic then? It certainly is true, that anti-semitism is on the rise again and we have to speak up against it. But it makes no sense to warn of hatred towards jews and then paint the arab world with the broadest brush possible and in the darkest colours. Just look who comes out of the woodwork when people report about the failings of countries like currently Lebanon. I hate nothing more then a neonazi, but saying that "most" arab states would genocide Jews and all their sympathizers is the same as saying all Jews are nazis.
Israel is trying to negotiate. Egypt and Jordan recognize the State of Israel and they have peace as well as diplomatic and economic relations, albeit limited with sometimes strict rules. Unfortunately these relations were partially born out of blood and disputes, and who knows what the future will bring, but at least for the time being people can breathe more easily on both sides (which should be a relief especially to Egypt and Jordan considering how terribly the wars with Israel went).
I'm actually trying to provide historical context because that's what's often missing from conversations about the Jewish-Arab conflict. Extremists do indeed exist on both sides, but the reason why I chimed in was because there were claims being made in this thread that one side is definitively worse than the other - and for some reason that side was supposedly Israel, which makes little sense when looking at the history of the conflict. Israel is following a strategic plan designed for survival, not for conquest or murder. Sometimes they play very dirty and are morally dubious, arguably even strictly immoral at times. But Hamas on the other hand have - in regards to Israel - no interest other than conquest and murder. They don't even have a second gear, for them it's all or nothing.
Israel isn't "the good guys". But there were opinions being posted presenting them as "the bad guys", and that couldn't be much further removed from reality.
That's why I decided to post the context of Jews being ostracized, and worse, by the Arab world. And I don't want to have to repeat myself again, but I'll say it again: the "Arab world" is not all the Arab people. I guess one could describe it perhaps as the culture and politics arising from radical factions within the Arab world, which the average peace-loving Arab can't say anything against lest they risk their own well-being. It's unfortunate that within Islam there exists a lot of extremism, but that's just the situation. They have a lot of (often bloody) infighting going on, too.
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On May 17 2021 17:24 Acrofales wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 15:42 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 15:08 Acrofales wrote:On May 17 2021 11:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Some people may not be aware that most of the Arab world (not people) is antisemitic to the core. And when I say "antisemitic", that in most cases means murder and genocide, and at the least it means discrimination and persecution. Jews are essentially not welcome in Arab countries. Just because some Arabs would like to be welcoming of them in their private lives, that doesn't mean Jews could feel safe living side by side with them in Arab countries. Rare exceptions involve what is called "Jews in name only" (e.g. Jews who act as antagonists and/or spies against the State of Israel).
And yes, as JimmiC states correctly, sympathizers are also considered enemies and would be killed as well given the chance. The Arab world (again, not necessarily all the people) doesn't take kindly to people they consider traitors.
What the Jewish government does to Palestinians and in particular to Gaza can be condemned. But to say that their actions are definitively worse than those of their enemies? That requires quite some ignorance, if not outright denial of the history between Jews and Arabs.
Even in London alarming antisemitic actions have been witnessed in recent days, with people in rallies flying the flag of Palestine while calling for the rape and murder of Jewish people.
The day when Jews can feel safe in their home towns is far. They've been under attack for so long that it's become normal for them. I don't know much about the plight of Jews in the middle east, but this is definitely not true for Northern Africa. Not many Jews can be found in Africa today, and among the reasons is that they faced antisemitism and displacement. They largely settled in Israel and many non-Arab countries around the world, with only few staying behind in Africa. Over the course of the 20th century their numbers in Arab countries (mainly in the Middle East but also Africa) dwindled from estimates of a few hundred thousand to almost none, with very few exceptions. And I wouldn't count on those exceptions to last. When I say Jews aren't welcome in the Arab world, I do mean that in the literal sense, and it's not exclusive to the Middle East. [citation needed] I mean... you can say the same for Jews in post-WW2 Europe. They mostly left for Israel. I don't think that has much to do with remaining anti-semitism in Europe, and rather that they felt energized to be able to return to the promised land, as well as Israel's very overt advertising (as well as incentivizing the move). And obviously the horrors of the holocaust fresh in their mind and resentment that wherever they had lived just let that happen (or more often, collaborated with the Nazis to expedite it). Nevertheless, post-WW2 Europe was pretty much united in trying to make up for the holocaust they had done. The political sentiment was definitely not one in which Jews needed to fear another holocaust happening. But obviously the mere fact that it *had* happened made them feel unwelcome, even in the new political climate.
I think unwelcome is an understatement. If you even somehow survived, chances are you lost your home, your wealth and some part if not all of your family there. A lot of people with views that led to everything were still living in europe. Besides that, a lot of cities were completely destroyed and at least in the early years after the war, people were going hungry atleast in germany. And it's not like it was guaranteed that europe would really change for the better in the long run.
I think that fear, mistrust and trauma from europe was a big factor for most people, aswell as having a chance for a fresh start where you might live amongst people that do not hate you and where you might not be persecuted.
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On May 17 2021 18:18 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 17:02 Broetchenholer wrote:On May 17 2021 11:53 Magic Powers wrote:
Some people may not be aware that most of the Arab world (not people) is antisemitic to the core. And when I say "antisemitic", that in most cases means murder and genocide, and at the least it means discrimination and persecution. Jews are essentially not welcome in Arab countries. Just because some Arabs would like to be welcoming of them in their private lives, that doesn't mean Jews could feel safe living side by side with them in Arab countries. Rare exceptions involve what is called "Jews in name only" (e.g. Jews who act as antagonists and/or spies against the State of Israel).
And yes, as JimmiC states correctly, sympathizers are also considered enemies and would be killed as well given the chance. The Arab world (again, not necessarily all the people) doesn't take kindly to people they consider traitors.
What the Jewish government does to Palestinians and in particular to Gaza can be condemned. But to say that their actions are definitively worse than those of their enemies? That requires quite some ignorance, if not outright denial of the history between Jews and Arabs.
Even in London alarming antisemitic actions have been witnessed in recent days, with people in rallies flying the flag of Palestine while calling for the rape and murder of Jewish people.
The day when Jews can feel safe in their home towns is far. They've been under attack for so long that it's become normal for them. The problem with these statements in absolutes is that it misses the historical context. The tensions between the arab world and Israel started before Israel was even founded. There were Jewish extremists trying to create Israel themselves before the second world war poisoning the well. Then they were injected into that land and with that it all started to really deteriorate. Was the state of Israel the target of war and terror from arab world, yes. Did they have to fear for their existence? Yes. Could they have prevented that from happening in the first place? Probably not. Could they have tried harder to ease tensions and start a new with he arab world? Yes. In the last twenty years, Israel has made everything continously worse. They have to deal with people, that want them gone , but they want them gone, because of their inactions at least. The arab world does not hate them without cause and while it is clear that there is no simple solution to any of this, making it progressively worse for arab Israelis is certainly not the right way. You are ertainly not sounding anti-arabic in your post. In Israel, Arab people have been violently attacked by Jewish people. Is Israel anti-arabic then? It certainly is true, that anti-semitism is on the rise again and we have to speak up against it. But it makes no sense to warn of hatred towards jews and then paint the arab world with the broadest brush possible and in the darkest colours. Just look who comes out of the woodwork when people report about the failings of countries like currently Lebanon. I hate nothing more then a neonazi, but saying that "most" arab states would genocide Jews and all their sympathizers is the same as saying all Jews are nazis. Israel is trying to negotiate. Egypt and Jordan recognize the State of Israel and they have peace as well as diplomatic and economic relations, albeit limited with sometimes strict rules. Unfortunately these relations were partially born out of blood and disputes, and who knows what the future will bring, but at least for the time being people can breathe more easily on both sides (which should be a relief especially to Egypt and Jordan considering how terribly the wars with Israel went).
Israel is not trying to negotiate. For the last twenty years, they have not done one thing to improve relations with the arab world. They have kept building settlements, they have kept taking land they do not own and they have stopped talking about a two state solution. They keep entrenching themselves in the most hard line positions and by that remove any chance of showing any good will to the other side.
I'm actually trying to provide historical context because that's what's often missing from conversations about the Jewish-Arab conflict. Extremists do indeed exist on both sides, but the reason why I chimed in was because there were claims being made in this thread that one side is definitively worse than the other - and for some reason that side was supposedly Israel, which makes little sense when looking at the history of the conflict. Israel is following a strategic plan designed for survival, not for conquest or murder. Sometimes they play very dirty and are morally dubious, arguably even strictly immoral at times. But Hamas on the other hand have - in regards to Israel - no interest other than conquest and murder. They don't even have a second gear, for them it's all or nothing.
This is the problem. By repeating this propaganda, there is nothing Israel does not have the right to do. By accepting that Hamas wants to murder every single Jew, Israel is allowed to bomb the AP and the houses of families. If only every propaganda statement would result in the same, we wouldn't have any roque states left. Isreals strategic plan designed for suvivial created Hamas, and having a completely powerless terror organisation in Gaza helps them more then the Palestinians. Had they spent the last 10 years trying to help the population of the Gaza strip insteand of caging them, hamas would not be a pseudo government organisation.
Israel isn't "the good guys". But there were opinions being posted presenting them as "the bad guys", and that couldn't be much further removed from reality.
That's why I decided to post the context of Jews being ostracized, and worse, by the Arab world. And I don't want to have to repeat myself again, but I'll say it again: the "Arab world" is not all the Arab people. I guess one could describe it perhaps as the culture and politics arising from radical factions within the Arab world, which the average peace-loving Arab can't say anything against lest they risk their own well-being. It's unfortunate that within Islam there exists a lot of extremism, but that's just the situation. They have a lot of (often bloody) infighting going on, too.
If you would care to give the Arab world the same treatment you give the Jewish, your post would be more balanced. But you are so focused on showing that Israel are not the bad guys, that you say the Arab world are the Bad guys. But certainly not in a racist way, the poor Arabs are just caought in their murderous fanatic religious world that just does not let them be decent humans beings.
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I have no interest in debating this with people who dismiss historical facts as "propaganda".
Here's a list of things Hamas leaders have said:
https://www.adl.org/news/article/hamas-in-their-own-words
These words can't be mistaken. They aim for the complete eradication of Jewish people.
Also, Hamas wasn't "created by Israel" or anything like that. Hamas is one of a number of groups that want to kill all Jews, innocent or not. If they only opposed Israel's military ventures and otherwise, rather than opposing the very existence of all Jews and the State of Israel, they'd be calling for an end to the conflict and not for the death of all Jews.
In contrast the PLO (a group shifting between different statuses ranging from observers to terrorists to representatives), has at least attempted to take steps towards a peaceful resolution:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization
"In 1993, the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist in peace, accepted UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, and rejected "violence and terrorism". In response, Israel officially recognized the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people."
Unfortunately things didn't go that well, so I'll just add this bit for further context:
"However, the PLO has employed violence in the years since 1993, particularly during the 2000–2005 Al-Aqsa Intifada. On 29 October 2018, the Palestinian Central Council suspended the recognition of Israel and halted security and economic coordination in all its forms with it."
So the PLO is an example of a group that did in fact result from Israel's aggression. They however had a much more legitimate case on their hands than Hamas, because they did not (to my knowledge) call for the death of all Jews, or if any of them did then that would've happened in their early days.
It's a fact that Israel has been under attack from groups located in Gaza, and Israel has been reactive rather than active. Considering how vulnerable the land is geopolitically speaking and from how many different groups they get threatened, Israel has shown a lot of restraint. There's only so much they can do, and the situation could get out of control any moment.
If you think Israel has the ability to just block every attack unscathed without ever having to retaliate, then you're strongly mistaken. They're not in that powerful of a position and it's only getting scarier out there as the arms race continues.
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On May 17 2021 19:32 Magic Powers wrote:
It's a fact that Israel has been under attack from groups located in Gaza, and Israel has been reactive rather than active. Considering how vulnerable the land is geopolitically speaking and from how many different groups they get threatened, Israel has shown a lot of restraint. There's only so much they can do, and the situation could get out of control any moment.
If you think Israel has the ability to just block every attack unscathed without ever having to retaliate, then you're strongly mistaken. They're not in that powerful of a position and it's only getting scarier out there as the arms race continues.
I disagree with this interpretation tbh.
You're right that there are periodic attacks from Gaza on Israel. However, Israel's oppression of Palestinians in Gaza is 24/7. They are imprisoned. They have their homes taken away, and their livelihoods taken, at the whim the Israeli government. Innocent or not, they are targeted all the time, they are imprisoned all the time.
I would say that the rocket attacks from Gaza are reactive.
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EPT
