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On May 17 2021 19:32 Magic Powers wrote:I have no interest in debating this with people who dismiss historical facts as "propaganda". Here's a list of things Hamas leaders have said: https://www.adl.org/news/article/hamas-in-their-own-wordsThese words can't be mistaken. They aim for the complete eradication of Jewish people. Also, Hamas wasn't "created by Israel" or anything like that. Hamas is one of a number of groups that want to kill all Jews, innocent or not. If they only opposed Israel's military ventures and otherwise, rather than opposing the very existence of all Jews and the State of Israel, they'd be calling for an end to the conflict and not for the death of all Jews. In contrast the PLO (a group shifting between different statuses ranging from observers to terrorists to representatives), has at least attempted to take steps towards a peaceful resolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization"In 1993, the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist in peace, accepted UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, and rejected "violence and terrorism". In response, Israel officially recognized the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people." Unfortunately things didn't go that well, so I'll just add this bit for further context: "However, the PLO has employed violence in the years since 1993, particularly during the 2000–2005 Al-Aqsa Intifada. On 29 October 2018, the Palestinian Central Council suspended the recognition of Israel and halted security and economic coordination in all its forms with it." So the PLO is an example of a group that did in fact result from Israel's aggression. They however had a much more legitimate case on their hands than Hamas, because they did not (to my knowledge) call for the death of all Jews, or if any of them did then that would've happened in their early days. It's a fact that Israel has been under attack from groups located in Gaza, and Israel has been reactive rather than active. Considering how vulnerable the land is geopolitically speaking and from how many different groups they get threatened, Israel has shown a lot of restraint. There's only so much they can do, and the situation could get out of control any moment.If you think Israel has the ability to just block every attack unscathed without ever having to retaliate, then you're strongly mistaken. They're not in that powerful of a position and it's only getting scarier out there as the arms race continues.
You are aware that Israel was exceedingly lenient with Hamas and gave it free reign for a long time so that it would weaken the PLO?
Here's a WSJ article on it. And here's a non-paywalled version.
The gist of the article is that Israel gave the budding organization led by a known religious extremist room to do whatever it wanted. Israel officially recognised the precursor to Hamas as a charity. The leader of Hamas at one point was jailed for gathering arms, and had his sentence drastically commuted when he said that the weapons were to fight other Palestinians. Isreal was happy to allow a radical organisation to form and grow, in order to weaken its legitimate secular opposition.
Also regarding the bold: Israel shouldn't even be on that land. Settler colonialism is not a "reactive" stance. They could do a lot more, like not fucking occupy and annex land that isn't theirs in literal violation of the Geneva Convention.
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On May 17 2021 19:53 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 19:32 Magic Powers wrote:
It's a fact that Israel has been under attack from groups located in Gaza, and Israel has been reactive rather than active. Considering how vulnerable the land is geopolitically speaking and from how many different groups they get threatened, Israel has shown a lot of restraint. There's only so much they can do, and the situation could get out of control any moment.
If you think Israel has the ability to just block every attack unscathed without ever having to retaliate, then you're strongly mistaken. They're not in that powerful of a position and it's only getting scarier out there as the arms race continues. I disagree with this interpretation tbh. You're right that there are periodic attacks from Gaza on Israel. However, Israel's oppression of Palestinians in Gaza is 24/7. They are imprisoned. They have their homes taken away, and their livelihoods taken, at the whim the Israeli government. Innocent or not, they are targeted all the time, they are imprisoned all the time. I would say that the rocket attacks from Gaza are reactive.
To that I would pose the question: is it reasonable for Israel to relinquish all forms of control over Gaza when the occupying forces in Gaza haven't offered peace to Israel, but very clearly have expressed hatred and the wish for eradication of Israel, while being heavily armed and not only willing but actively and frequently sending large numbers of rockets towards Israel that destroy buildings and kill citizens?
The situation is indeed horrible and unfair for the citizens of Gaza, but their leadership isn't giving Israel an out. Calling Hamas' actions "reactive" seems like a complete misrepresentation to me.
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On May 17 2021 19:59 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:You are aware that Israel was exceedingly lenient with Hamas and gave it free reign for a long time so that it would weaken the PLO? Here's a WSJ article on it. And here's a non-paywalled version. The gist of the article is that Israel gave the budding organization led by a known religious extremist room to do whatever it wanted. Israel officially recognised the precursor to Hamas as a charity. The leader of Hamas at one point was jailed for gathering arms, and had his sentence drastically commuted when he said that the weapons were to fight other Palestinians. Isreal was happy to allow a radical organisation to form and grow, in order to weaken its legitimate secular opposition.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas
"Around the time of Yassin's arrest, Avner Cohen, an Israeli religious affairs official, sent a report to senior military officers and civilian leadership in Gaza advising them of the dangers of the Islamic movement, but this report and similar ones were ignored.[19] Former military intelligence officer Shalom Harari said the warnings were ignored out of neglect, not a desire to fortify the Islamists: "Israel never financed Hamas. Israel never armed Hamas.""
Neglect is not intent. It's word against word, who do I believe?
I tend to err on the side of incompetence and not malice, unless I have reason to suspect otherwise.
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On May 17 2021 20:15 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 19:59 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:You are aware that Israel was exceedingly lenient with Hamas and gave it free reign for a long time so that it would weaken the PLO? Here's a WSJ article on it. And here's a non-paywalled version. The gist of the article is that Israel gave the budding organization led by a known religious extremist room to do whatever it wanted. Israel officially recognised the precursor to Hamas as a charity. The leader of Hamas at one point was jailed for gathering arms, and had his sentence drastically commuted when he said that the weapons were to fight other Palestinians. Isreal was happy to allow a radical organisation to form and grow, in order to weaken its legitimate secular opposition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas"Around the time of Yassin's arrest, Avner Cohen, an Israeli religious affairs official, sent a report to senior military officers and civilian leadership in Gaza advising them of the dangers of the Islamic movement, but this report and similar ones were ignored.[19] Former military intelligence officer Shalom Harari said the warnings were ignored out of neglect, not a desire to fortify the Islamists: "Israel never financed Hamas. Israel never armed Hamas."" Neglect is not intent. It's word against word, who do I believe? I tend to err on the side of incompetence and not malice, unless I have reason to suspect otherwise.
Choosing to release an extremist gathering arms because they're intent on fighting the PLO is a little more than neglect. Changing your behavior to be more leniently specifically because of the Hamas precursor's opposition to PLO is not just incompetence. These are not mistakes Israel would have made were not it for what they could gain, and they are at bare minimum complicit in the current state of affairs.
And absolutely fuck none of this debate is relevant to the central point: Israel has and continues to illegally occupy Palestinian land and ethnically cleanse it of its Arab population. They are a settler colonial state, and no criticism you can make of their opposition has any bearing on that fact. Nothing else in this discussion matters in comparison. There's no argument or piece of history that absolves them, or their support the US, of this crime against humanity.
Here in South Africa many white people (including much of my family) were terrified of what would happen when apartheid ended. The ANC had been designated a terrorist organisation by the white nationalist government (and the US lol), and there was (rightly so) not a lot of love for the white benefactors of the situation to go around. But you'd (rightly) be called an apartheid apologist if you used that to deflect from the only real point that mattered: South Africa was committing the crime of apartheid and that needed to stop.
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Israel has enjoyed almost completely unquestioning support from the US and I think the expectation that Israel stop committing war crimes and expanding illegal occupations with US money and military aid is a reasonable one no matter what excuses people make for settler colonialism.
Whether that's a result of Israel recognizing the depravity of their actions or the US no longer aiding in it is up to Israel. Whether people in the US allow the US government to continue its abetting of those crimes is at least ostensibly up to US citizens.
Ciaus is right imo.
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On May 17 2021 20:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
And absolutely fuck none of this debate is relevant to the central point: Israel has and continues to illegally occupy Palestinian land and ethnically cleanse it of its Arab population. They are a settler colonial state, and no criticism you can make of their opposition has any bearing on that fact. Nothing else in this discussion matters in comparison. There's no argument or piece of history that absolves them, or their support the US, of this crime against humanity.
I think you may want to read the comment in which I quoted various horrendous crimes of Arab countries against Jews, and the comment in which Hamas openly state that they want to destroy Israel and kill all Jews (a stance that many other extremist Muslim groups share).
And the fact that you're just handwaving away the fact that Israel is being continously threatened by rocket attacks is honestly quite baffling to me.
I'm not going to discuss this with you any further.
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On May 17 2021 20:44 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 20:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:
And absolutely fuck none of this debate is relevant to the central point: Israel has and continues to illegally occupy Palestinian land and ethnically cleanse it of its Arab population. They are a settler colonial state, and no criticism you can make of their opposition has any bearing on that fact. Nothing else in this discussion matters in comparison. There's no argument or piece of history that absolves them, or their support the US, of this crime against humanity. I think you may want to read the comment in which I quoted various horrendous crimes of Arab countries against Jews, and the comment in which Hamas openly state that they want to destroy Israel and kill all Jews (a stance that many other extremist Muslim groups share). And the fact that you're just handwaving away the fact that Israel is being continously threatened by rocket attacks is honestly quite baffling to me. I'm not going to discuss this with you any further.
You're a fool parotting Israelian propaganda and refusing any other viewpoint. The aggressor is Israel, not the other way around, the fact you don't even see that is mind boggling.
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On May 17 2021 20:55 nojok wrote:
You're a fool parotting Israelian propaganda and refusing any other viewpoint. The aggressor is Israel, not the other way around, the fact you don't even see that is mind boggling.
I'm not parotting anything, and not refusing any viewpoints. I've expressed numerous times that the Israeli government has done things wrong, and I've named some of those things myself, for example the displacement of Palestinians.
I'm refusing only the black and white notion that Israel is the only party at fault here, and that without them doing what they do, things would be all rosy and lovey dovey. Anyone who thinks that way doesn't understand why the tensions between Jews and Arabs really exist. This is not something that would end if Israel laid down its arms, stopped forced evictions and put no restrictions on freedom of religion. Do you really think it would simply end after that? Then I'm not the fool here.
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On May 17 2021 20:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 20:15 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 19:59 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:You are aware that Israel was exceedingly lenient with Hamas and gave it free reign for a long time so that it would weaken the PLO? Here's a WSJ article on it. And here's a non-paywalled version. The gist of the article is that Israel gave the budding organization led by a known religious extremist room to do whatever it wanted. Israel officially recognised the precursor to Hamas as a charity. The leader of Hamas at one point was jailed for gathering arms, and had his sentence drastically commuted when he said that the weapons were to fight other Palestinians. Isreal was happy to allow a radical organisation to form and grow, in order to weaken its legitimate secular opposition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas"Around the time of Yassin's arrest, Avner Cohen, an Israeli religious affairs official, sent a report to senior military officers and civilian leadership in Gaza advising them of the dangers of the Islamic movement, but this report and similar ones were ignored.[19] Former military intelligence officer Shalom Harari said the warnings were ignored out of neglect, not a desire to fortify the Islamists: "Israel never financed Hamas. Israel never armed Hamas."" Neglect is not intent. It's word against word, who do I believe? I tend to err on the side of incompetence and not malice, unless I have reason to suspect otherwise. Choosing to release an extremist gathering arms because they're intent on fighting the PLO is a little more than neglect. Changing your behavior to be more leniently specifically because of the Hamas precursor's opposition to PLO is not just incompetence. These are not mistakes Israel would have made were not it for what they could gain, and they are at bare minimum complicit in the current state of affairs. And absolutely fuck none of this debate is relevant to the central point: Israel has and continues to illegally occupy Palestinian land and ethnically cleanse it of its Arab population. They are a settler colonial state, and no criticism you can make of their opposition has any bearing on that fact. Nothing else in this discussion matters in comparison. There's no argument or piece of history that absolves them, or their support the US, of this crime against humanity. Here in South Africa many white people (including much of my family) were terrified of what would happen when apartheid ended. The ANC had been designated a terrorist organisation by the white nationalist government (and the US lol), and there was (rightly so) not a lot of love for the white benefactors of the situation to go around. But you'd (rightly) be called an apartheid apologist if you used that to deflect from the only real point that mattered: South Africa was committing the crime of apartheid and that needed to stop.
Just to clarify this. You are talking about the current settlement programs, not the initial migration, right?
The apartheid comparison is kinda lacking because south africa already was one country. Israel currently does not directly occupy or has control over the remaining parts of palestine. Just to clarify yes, people especially in Gaza live under terrible circumstances and should be threated better and should have the ability to live better lives and a lot of that has to do with israel. It's just that the path towards achieving that it is even more complicated than when you're one country I think.
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On May 17 2021 21:11 MWY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 20:32 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:On May 17 2021 20:15 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 19:59 Ciaus_Dronu wrote:You are aware that Israel was exceedingly lenient with Hamas and gave it free reign for a long time so that it would weaken the PLO? Here's a WSJ article on it. And here's a non-paywalled version. The gist of the article is that Israel gave the budding organization led by a known religious extremist room to do whatever it wanted. Israel officially recognised the precursor to Hamas as a charity. The leader of Hamas at one point was jailed for gathering arms, and had his sentence drastically commuted when he said that the weapons were to fight other Palestinians. Isreal was happy to allow a radical organisation to form and grow, in order to weaken its legitimate secular opposition. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Hamas"Around the time of Yassin's arrest, Avner Cohen, an Israeli religious affairs official, sent a report to senior military officers and civilian leadership in Gaza advising them of the dangers of the Islamic movement, but this report and similar ones were ignored.[19] Former military intelligence officer Shalom Harari said the warnings were ignored out of neglect, not a desire to fortify the Islamists: "Israel never financed Hamas. Israel never armed Hamas."" Neglect is not intent. It's word against word, who do I believe? I tend to err on the side of incompetence and not malice, unless I have reason to suspect otherwise. Choosing to release an extremist gathering arms because they're intent on fighting the PLO is a little more than neglect. Changing your behavior to be more leniently specifically because of the Hamas precursor's opposition to PLO is not just incompetence. These are not mistakes Israel would have made were not it for what they could gain, and they are at bare minimum complicit in the current state of affairs. And absolutely fuck none of this debate is relevant to the central point: Israel has and continues to illegally occupy Palestinian land and ethnically cleanse it of its Arab population. They are a settler colonial state, and no criticism you can make of their opposition has any bearing on that fact. Nothing else in this discussion matters in comparison. There's no argument or piece of history that absolves them, or their support the US, of this crime against humanity. Here in South Africa many white people (including much of my family) were terrified of what would happen when apartheid ended. The ANC had been designated a terrorist organisation by the white nationalist government (and the US lol), and there was (rightly so) not a lot of love for the white benefactors of the situation to go around. But you'd (rightly) be called an apartheid apologist if you used that to deflect from the only real point that mattered: South Africa was committing the crime of apartheid and that needed to stop. Just to clarify this. You are talking about the current settlement programs, not the initial migration, right?
Yes.
I think there's a lot of dark history and valid criticisms of the initial migration and formation of Israel, but those are not what I am talking about. In that post I am talking about what Israel is doing now.
The apartheid comparison is kinda lacking because south africa already was one country. Israel currently does not directly occupy or has control over the remaining parts of palestine.
How does it not? Sure it doesn't literally govern the day to day affairs over what little of Palestine remains (and even this is arguable in some regions), but it absolutely "controls" it in any reasonable sense of the word. It also does literally occupy parts of what are legally Palestine.
Also while Israel is an apartheid state (not quite like SA was as you point out, there are many differences), that's not what I was saying with that comparison. I was highlighting that regardless of history or how the oppressing population feels, the central crime is far and away the most important single issue, especially with regard to US and international support. As it stands, the US supports Israel nearly unconditionally (as it supported SA), and much of the Israeli population supports the occupation. Both of these things need to change, and as far as the international view on the issue is concerned, there can be no deflection on this. That is the comparison I was drawing - not one between apartheid and apartheid, but between the centrality of the issue of SA apartheid, and the centrality of the issue of Israeli settlement and ethnic cleansing.
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On May 17 2021 21:04 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 20:55 nojok wrote:
You're a fool parotting Israelian propaganda and refusing any other viewpoint. The aggressor is Israel, not the other way around, the fact you don't even see that is mind boggling.
I'm not parotting anything, and not refusing any viewpoints. I've expressed numerous times that the Israeli government has done things wrong, and I've named some of those things myself, for example the displacement of Palestinians. I'm refusing only the black and white notion that Israel is the only party at fault here, and that without them doing what they do, things would be all rosy and lovey dovey. Anyone who thinks that way doesn't understand why the tensions between Jews and Arabs really exist. This is not something that would end if Israel laid down its arms, stopped forced evictions and put no restrictions on freedom of religion. Do you really think it would simply end after that? Then I'm not the fool here.
It is the whole point of their propaganda, they want to make it look like it's Israel against a huge mindless antisemitic horde whereas the main focus should be Israel stealing Palestinian lands.
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On May 17 2021 21:30 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 21:04 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 20:55 nojok wrote:
You're a fool parotting Israelian propaganda and refusing any other viewpoint. The aggressor is Israel, not the other way around, the fact you don't even see that is mind boggling.
I'm not parotting anything, and not refusing any viewpoints. I've expressed numerous times that the Israeli government has done things wrong, and I've named some of those things myself, for example the displacement of Palestinians. I'm refusing only the black and white notion that Israel is the only party at fault here, and that without them doing what they do, things would be all rosy and lovey dovey. Anyone who thinks that way doesn't understand why the tensions between Jews and Arabs really exist. This is not something that would end if Israel laid down its arms, stopped forced evictions and put no restrictions on freedom of religion. Do you really think it would simply end after that? Then I'm not the fool here. It is the whole point of their propaganda, they want to make it look like it's Israel against a huge mindless antisemitic horde whereas the main focus should be Israel stealing Palestinian lands.
I keep hearing the word "propaganda" being thrown around, yet I have seen nothing that substantiates that. Are you saying that Hamas would stop firing rockets if Israel took a softer stance? Based on what?
And no one's calling them "mindless". In fact I think Hamas is quite smart. I've pondered Israel's options, and my conclusion is that neither a more aggressive stance nor a less aggressive stance would be doing them any favors. Because of that I believe Hamas is banking on the off-chance that Israel makes a significant mistake (one of which could be an attempt to wage a full-on war against Gaza, conquer the region and claim the land). Hamas don't mind dying in their holy war if it results in a weakened Israel, either militarily or politically. And Israel completely backing off from Gaza would only strengthen Hamas, so that would also be a win for them. Either way they have nothing to lose. That doesn't seem mindless to me at all.
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On May 17 2021 19:32 Magic Powers wrote:I have no interest in debating this with people who dismiss historical facts as "propaganda". Here's a list of things Hamas leaders have said: https://www.adl.org/news/article/hamas-in-their-own-wordsThese words can't be mistaken. They aim for the complete eradication of Jewish people. Also, Hamas wasn't "created by Israel" or anything like that. Hamas is one of a number of groups that want to kill all Jews, innocent or not. If they only opposed Israel's military ventures and otherwise, rather than opposing the very existence of all Jews and the State of Israel, they'd be calling for an end to the conflict and not for the death of all Jews. In contrast the PLO (a group shifting between different statuses ranging from observers to terrorists to representatives), has at least attempted to take steps towards a peaceful resolution: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestine_Liberation_Organization"In 1993, the PLO recognized Israel's right to exist in peace, accepted UN Security Council resolutions 242 and 338, and rejected "violence and terrorism". In response, Israel officially recognized the PLO as the representative of the Palestinian people." Unfortunately things didn't go that well, so I'll just add this bit for further context: "However, the PLO has employed violence in the years since 1993, particularly during the 2000–2005 Al-Aqsa Intifada. On 29 October 2018, the Palestinian Central Council suspended the recognition of Israel and halted security and economic coordination in all its forms with it." So the PLO is an example of a group that did in fact result from Israel's aggression. They however had a much more legitimate case on their hands than Hamas, because they did not (to my knowledge) call for the death of all Jews, or if any of them did then that would've happened in their early days. It's a fact that Israel has been under attack from groups located in Gaza, and Israel has been reactive rather than active. Considering how vulnerable the land is geopolitically speaking and from how many different groups they get threatened, Israel has shown a lot of restraint. There's only so much they can do, and the situation could get out of control any moment. If you think Israel has the ability to just block every attack unscathed without ever having to retaliate, then you're strongly mistaken. They're not in that powerful of a position and it's only getting scarier out there as the arms race continues.
I never debated that the leader of several arab political entities have called for the death of all Jews. What i am debating is how much of this rhetoric is propaganda due to the complete unability to even achieve small military goals. It's like a 43 year old virgin claiming that he will sleep with a 100 beautiful woman after being rejected again and again and again.
You are inventing a world where the words of someone are more hurtful then the actions of another. is Hamas a terrorist organisation. Yes. Are they bent on murdering every single Israeli? No. They are a political party that knows the difference of what you say and what you do. Should the border fences simply drop and all military retreat from the border to gaza? No. Would it help the peace process if Israel would help increase the quality of living of the 2 million people they have caged? Yes. By claiming that the evil arab world wants to murder every Israeli, you allow Israel to never nned to change their way and give the Arab world more reasons to legitimately hate Israel.
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On May 17 2021 22:00 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 21:30 nojok wrote:On May 17 2021 21:04 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 20:55 nojok wrote:
You're a fool parotting Israelian propaganda and refusing any other viewpoint. The aggressor is Israel, not the other way around, the fact you don't even see that is mind boggling.
I'm not parotting anything, and not refusing any viewpoints. I've expressed numerous times that the Israeli government has done things wrong, and I've named some of those things myself, for example the displacement of Palestinians. I'm refusing only the black and white notion that Israel is the only party at fault here, and that without them doing what they do, things would be all rosy and lovey dovey. Anyone who thinks that way doesn't understand why the tensions between Jews and Arabs really exist. This is not something that would end if Israel laid down its arms, stopped forced evictions and put no restrictions on freedom of religion. Do you really think it would simply end after that? Then I'm not the fool here. It is the whole point of their propaganda, they want to make it look like it's Israel against a huge mindless antisemitic horde whereas the main focus should be Israel stealing Palestinian lands. I keep hearing the word "propaganda" being thrown around, yet I have seen nothing that substantiates that. Are you saying that Hamas would stop firing rockets if Israel took a softer stance? Based on what? And no one's calling them "mindless". In fact I think Hamas is quite smart. I've pondered Israel's options, and my conclusion is that neither a more aggressive stance nor a less aggressive stance would be doing them any favors. Because of that I believe Hamas is banking on the off-chance that Israel makes a significant mistake (one of which could be an attempt to wage a full-on war against Gaza, conquer the region and claim the land). Hamas don't mind dying in their holy war if it results in a weakened Israel, either militarily or politically. And Israel completely backing off from Gaza would only strengthen Hamas, so that would also be a win for them. Either way they have nothing to lose. That doesn't seem mindless to me at all.
Seriously? Hams started firing rockets exactly the second Israel oppressed their muslim minority, or at least it was perceived that Israel oppressed their muslim minority. Or did you hear from a neverending bombardment of Tel Aviv since hamas was founded? No, they act out of reasons. And if they believe that going less extreme will serve them well, they will do that, like every terrorist organisation before them. None of them believes that the only reason for their existance is to murder their enemy, especially those that are so big that they represent a whole people, with political goals etc.
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On May 17 2021 22:00 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 21:30 nojok wrote:On May 17 2021 21:04 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 20:55 nojok wrote:
You're a fool parotting Israelian propaganda and refusing any other viewpoint. The aggressor is Israel, not the other way around, the fact you don't even see that is mind boggling.
I'm not parotting anything, and not refusing any viewpoints. I've expressed numerous times that the Israeli government has done things wrong, and I've named some of those things myself, for example the displacement of Palestinians. I'm refusing only the black and white notion that Israel is the only party at fault here, and that without them doing what they do, things would be all rosy and lovey dovey. Anyone who thinks that way doesn't understand why the tensions between Jews and Arabs really exist. This is not something that would end if Israel laid down its arms, stopped forced evictions and put no restrictions on freedom of religion. Do you really think it would simply end after that? Then I'm not the fool here. It is the whole point of their propaganda, they want to make it look like it's Israel against a huge mindless antisemitic horde whereas the main focus should be Israel stealing Palestinian lands. I keep hearing the word "propaganda" being thrown around, yet I have seen nothing that substantiates that. Are you saying that Hamas would stop firing rockets if Israel took a softer stance? Based on what? And no one's calling them "mindless". In fact I think Hamas is quite smart. I've pondered Israel's options, and my conclusion is that neither a more aggressive stance nor a less aggressive stance would be doing them any favors. Because of that I believe Hamas is banking on the off-chance that Israel makes a significant mistake (one of which could be an attempt to wage a full-on war against Gaza, conquer the region and claim the land). Hamas don't mind dying in their holy war if it results in a weakened Israel, either militarily or politically. And Israel completely backing off from Gaza would only strengthen Hamas, so that would also be a win for them. Either way they have nothing to lose. That doesn't seem mindless to me at all.
What in your opinion is the cause of the recent events? Did you even follow the news? Palestinians being evicted so Israelis can take their place in East Jerusalem, does it ring a bell?
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On May 17 2021 22:12 Broetchenholer wrote:
I never debated that the leader of several arab political entities have called for the death of all Jews. What i am debating is how much of this rhetoric is propaganda due to the complete unability to even achieve small military goals. It's like a 43 year old virgin claiming that he will sleep with a 100 beautiful woman after being rejected again and again and again.
You are inventing a world where the words of someone are more hurtful then the actions of another. is Hamas a terrorist organisation. Yes. Are they bent on murdering every single Israeli? No. They are a political party that knows the difference of what you say and what you do. Should the border fences simply drop and all military retreat from the border to gaza? No. Would it help the peace process if Israel would help increase the quality of living of the 2 million people they have caged? Yes. By claiming that the evil arab world wants to murder every Israeli, you allow Israel to never nned to change their way and give the Arab world more reasons to legitimately hate Israel.
"The words of someone" I presume are Hamas calling for the death of Jews, and "the actions of another" is Israel evicting Palestinians and controlling strategic locations in Gaza?
Ok, so only one side is using words, and only the other side is using actions, is that what you're saying?
Then what do you call rockets flying towards Israel, destroying buildings, killing citizens and leaving many wounded? Is that also "the words of someone"? Or is it much rather threats being put to action?
I absolutely can't agree with the way you're painting the situation.
And in regards to this:
"is Hamas a terrorist organisation. Yes. Are they bent on murdering every single Israeli? No."
I think you're still unaware - despite me mentioning it numerous times - of the expulsion of Jews from Arab land. These expulsions can't possibly be considered acts of self-defense, as they were directed against innocent Jews as a form of revenge or as an expression of Arab nationalism. This was done consistently to the point of complete and permanent exile of all Jews. And it wasn't just the most extreme Muslim factions doing this. Those groups went even further, to the point of torture and even genocide.
Based on that history, please do tell what are the chances - given that Palestine would be handed to Arabs (which is inevitable if Hamas get their way) - that this wouldn't happen again, or worse, considering the level of extremism within Hamas?
Do you really want to tell us that the Jews living in Israel don't have a good reason to be fearful of expulsion, or worse, in such a scenario?
Hamas have expressed often and very clearly that they have no interest in sharing governance over Palestine with the Jews. Anyone can see where this would ultimately lead to. A peaceful resolution with non-Jews in power is too unlikely of a prospect, in fact I'd argue any Israeli politician even pondering that future would likely and understandably be called a traitor to the Jewish people.
That means for Israel there's no peaceful resolution with Hamas, no matter what they do. Hamas will not stop until the Israeli government falls.
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On May 17 2021 22:19 Broetchenholer wrote:
Seriously? Hams started firing rockets exactly the second Israel oppressed their muslim minority, or at least it was perceived that Israel oppressed their muslim minority. Or did you hear from a neverending bombardment of Tel Aviv since hamas was founded? No, they act out of reasons. And if they believe that going less extreme will serve them well, they will do that, like every terrorist organisation before them. None of them believes that the only reason for their existance is to murder their enemy, especially those that are so big that they represent a whole people, with political goals etc.
Hamas have said that the rockets were fired in response to clashes with Israeli police. Let me ask a question: do you think that's an appropriate response? Killing innocent people randomly over an altercation with the police in which no one was killed?
No matter how just or unjust the police's actions were, the response by Hamas is unwarranted, and if you disagree I'm done arguing with you.
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On May 17 2021 22:27 nojok wrote:
What in your opinion is the cause of the recent events? Did you even follow the news? Palestinians being evicted so Israelis can take their place in East Jerusalem, does it ring a bell?
Did you read my comments in full? I've expressed numerous times that the Israeli government is acting morally dubious and sometimes arguably strictly immoral. This is one of those things.
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On May 17 2021 22:42 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 22:12 Broetchenholer wrote:
I never debated that the leader of several arab political entities have called for the death of all Jews. What i am debating is how much of this rhetoric is propaganda due to the complete unability to even achieve small military goals. It's like a 43 year old virgin claiming that he will sleep with a 100 beautiful woman after being rejected again and again and again.
You are inventing a world where the words of someone are more hurtful then the actions of another. is Hamas a terrorist organisation. Yes. Are they bent on murdering every single Israeli? No. They are a political party that knows the difference of what you say and what you do. Should the border fences simply drop and all military retreat from the border to gaza? No. Would it help the peace process if Israel would help increase the quality of living of the 2 million people they have caged? Yes. By claiming that the evil arab world wants to murder every Israeli, you allow Israel to never nned to change their way and give the Arab world more reasons to legitimately hate Israel. "The words of someone" I presume are Hamas calling for the death of Jews, and "the actions of another" is Israel evicting Palestinians and controlling strategic locations in Gaza? Ok, so only one side is using words, and only the other side is using actions, is that what you're saying? Then what do you call rockets flying towards Israel, destroying buildings, killing citizens and leaving many wounded? Is that also "the words of someone"? Or is it much rather threats being put to action? I absolutely can't agree with the way you're painting the situation. And in regards to this: "is Hamas a terrorist organisation. Yes. Are they bent on murdering every single Israeli? No." I think you're still unaware - despite me mentioning it numerous times - of the expulsion of Jews from Arab land. These expulsions can't possibly be considered acts of self-defense, as they were directed against innocent Jews as a form of revenge or as an expression of Arab nationalism. This was done consistently to the point of complete and permanent exile of all Jews. And it wasn't just the most extreme Muslim factions doing this. Those groups went even further, to the point of torture and even genocide. Based on that history, please do tell what are the chances - given that Palestine would be handed to Arabs (which is inevitable if Hamas get their way) - that this wouldn't happen again, or worse, considering the level of extremism within Hamas? Do you really want to tell us that the Jews living in Israel don't have a good reason to be fearful of expulsion, or worse, in such a scenario? Hamas have expressed often and very clearly that they have no interest in sharing governance over Palestine with the Jews. Anyone can see where this would ultimately lead to. A peaceful resolution with non-Jews in power is too unlikely of a prospect, in fact I'd argue any Israeli politician even pondering that future would likely and understandably be called a traitor to the Jewish people.That means for Israel there's no peaceful resolution with Hamas, no matter what they do. Hamas will not stop until the Israeli government falls.
Dude, you are getting more and more extreme. There cannot be a peaceful solution with the evil Arabs, so better not try. Better icrease tensions more and more until you got enough reaction out of them to get them out of the land. Everything is binary. You claim you understand both sides and just believe Israel is better, but ylou have zero empathy for the Arabs. Just a few good people that are stuck with a majority of genocidal radical maniacs.
You cite the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries 70 years ago and as a response to the creation of Israel as proof that the Arabs are all anti-semitic to the core. You claim that given the chance, the Arab world would murder every single one of them. Nobody is advertising just giving Hamas the reigns over the land, get rid of the israeli army and see what happens. We say, if Israel would try to empower the moderates by offering a better life coexisting with Israel, Hamas would lose their power base. It would be a slow and painful progress, but it would improve everything. The only reason this is not done, is that the Israeli people don't want to. They want to keep oppressing, and they justify it by saying these poeple are pretty mad at us now, they cannot be reasoned with, we need to cage them indefinately. And you agree with that.
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On May 17 2021 22:49 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 22:19 Broetchenholer wrote:
Seriously? Hams started firing rockets exactly the second Israel oppressed their muslim minority, or at least it was perceived that Israel oppressed their muslim minority. Or did you hear from a neverending bombardment of Tel Aviv since hamas was founded? No, they act out of reasons. And if they believe that going less extreme will serve them well, they will do that, like every terrorist organisation before them. None of them believes that the only reason for their existance is to murder their enemy, especially those that are so big that they represent a whole people, with political goals etc.
Hamas have said that the rockets were fired in response to clashes with Israeli police. Let me ask a question: do you think that's an appropriate response? Killing innocent people randomly over an altercation with the police in which no one was killed? No matter how just or unjust the police's actions were, the response by Hamas is unwarranted, and if you disagree I'm done arguing with you.
Hamas is a terrorist organisation. Terrorism is bad. They are bad guys. Do you agree that killing civilians in retaliation is equally bad?
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EPT
