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On May 17 2021 22:51 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 22:27 nojok wrote:
What in your opinion is the cause of the recent events? Did you even follow the news? Palestinians being evicted so Israelis can take their place in East Jerusalem, does it ring a bell? Did you read my comments in full? I've expressed numerous times that the Israeli government is acting morally dubious and sometimes arguably strictly immoral. This is one of those things.
It's not "one of those things", it's the centre of the problem. Hamas is continuously losing popularity until Israel steals more lands, Palestinians know they lost, they want to keep whatever they have and maybe recover a bit from what was stolen, it's Israel's actions which are pushing them towards Hamas.
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-settlements-population-in-the-west-bank
Just check those numbers.
What is the territory Palestinians are left with? Will it stop? How is it fighting Hamas to send people live in the West Bank?
![[image loading]](https://jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/images/maps/settleblocs.jpg)
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You cite the expulsion of Jews from Arab countries 70 years ago
The last major reported expulsion was as recent as the late 70's, which was about 50 years ago. Most Jews have since emigrated due to continued tensions, their numbers in Arab countries have declined to dismal levels, even zero in some cases.
The last recorded occasion was as recent as March 2021 in Yemen:
"On 28 March 2021, 13 Jews were forced by the Houthis to leave Yemen, leaving the last four elderly Jews in Yemen."
The reason why I can't give many examples beyond the late 70's is simple: so many Jews were either forced to leave or have left on their own accord due to fears, that there just aren't many Jews left to expell, and therefore we can hardly hear of many more cases of it happening. If you don't understand what that implies then there's no reasoning in the world to show you why my views are perfectly reasonable. I can't make you understand the obvious implication any other way.
The only reason this is not done, is that the Israeli people don't want to. They want to keep oppressing
Isn't it interesting that you think I see Arabs as a mindless horde, but then you go on to say that about the Jewish people living in Israel.
Correction: that wasn't you saying that about me. My bad.
But my point stands, this is not exactly something that I would ever say about a whole country of people.
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On May 17 2021 23:15 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 22:51 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 22:27 nojok wrote:
What in your opinion is the cause of the recent events? Did you even follow the news? Palestinians being evicted so Israelis can take their place in East Jerusalem, does it ring a bell? Did you read my comments in full? I've expressed numerous times that the Israeli government is acting morally dubious and sometimes arguably strictly immoral. This is one of those things. It's not "one of those things", it's the centre of the problem. Hamas is continuously losing popularity until Israel steals more lands, Palestinians know they lost, they want to keep whatever they have and maybe recover a bit from what was stolen, it's Israel's actions which are pushing them towards Hamas. https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/israeli-settlements-population-in-the-west-bankJust check those numbers. What is the territory Palestinians are left with? Will it stop? How is it fighting Hamas to send people live in the West Bank?
Hamas will find any excuse to kill innocent people. They've found an excuse just recently, they'll find another one whenever they like. Would you say it's acceptable or even understandable to kill innocent people because of police doing their job (not killing anyone)?
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Why? The democratically elected government of Israel has not made any attempts at deescalating the situation. Instead, they keep pushing the Palestinians further into the sea. They do that because the majority of their people want it or the majority of their people does not oppose it loud enough. Every society is defined by the action of their majority. The political majority of Israelis do not want their government to improve the situation of Palestinians. Where am i wrong?
Hamas will find any excuse to kill innocent people. They've found an excuse just recently, they'll find another one whenever they like. Would you say it's acceptable or even understandable to kill innocent people because of police doing their job (not killing anyone)?
Again, why is it okay for israel to kill people in response?
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On May 17 2021 23:41 Broetchenholer wrote:
Why? The democratically elected government of Israel has not made any attempts at deescalating the situation. Instead, they keep pushing the Palestinians further into the sea. They do that because the majority of their people want it or the majority of their people does not oppose it loud enough. Every society is defined by the action of their majority. The political majority of Israelis do not want their government to improve the situation of Palestinians. Where am i wrong?
I don't see the Israeli people as a hivemind, or any people for that matter. If people don't express their views in some capacity, I don't pretend to know what they want. How do you read this into the voting patterns?
Do you think the majority of Americans wanted a wall to be built? The 2016 elections indicate that, no? Well no, they absolutely don't indicate any such thing for a number of reasons, and I think those reasons should be pretty obvious.
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On May 17 2021 23:41 Broetchenholer wrote:Why? The democratically elected government of Israel has not made any attempts at deescalating the situation. Instead, they keep pushing the Palestinians further into the sea. They do that because the majority of their people want it or the majority of their people does not oppose it loud enough. Every society is defined by the action of their majority. The political majority of Israelis do not want their government to improve the situation of Palestinians. Where am i wrong? Show nested quote +
Hamas will find any excuse to kill innocent people. They've found an excuse just recently, they'll find another one whenever they like. Would you say it's acceptable or even understandable to kill innocent people because of police doing their job (not killing anyone)?
Again, why is it okay for israel to kill people in response?
It's not ok for Israel to kill innocent people in response. But they also can't sit still and do nothing. To my knowledge they're not purposely targeting innocent people. Hamas on the other hand is doing exactly that.
Again, I've said multiple times that the Israeli government isn't perfect either. What are we arguing about? I will always argue that they're doing some things that are wrong.
I will not, however, agree that Israel is worse than Hamas, which is what I was disputing when I originally posted historic facts for context. And I will also not agree that the attacks against Israel will stop if Israel simply stops doing what it's been doing. And I also not agree that Israel should just surrender and let their land be reclaimed. None of that seems outrageous or obviously false to me.
I'll have to go now, my day's over.
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The political reality of Israel is pretty simple. There is no majority for an improvement of the situation with the Palestinians. It doesn't mean all Israelis want that, but it means their society as a whole does not want it. Would you say a society is not responsible for the actions of their government? And yes, the american society wanted, as a whole a wall to be build. Political realities are forged by majorities of people not acting against them. If a policy is not opposed enough by the population to not be put into effect, then that means that it is okay for that society to have it in effect. The fact that a large percentage of Israleis would agree with my position more then with yours does not matter. Sure, the country is pretty divided over it. So why are you so binary?
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On May 17 2021 23:52 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 23:41 Broetchenholer wrote:Why? The democratically elected government of Israel has not made any attempts at deescalating the situation. Instead, they keep pushing the Palestinians further into the sea. They do that because the majority of their people want it or the majority of their people does not oppose it loud enough. Every society is defined by the action of their majority. The political majority of Israelis do not want their government to improve the situation of Palestinians. Where am i wrong?
Hamas will find any excuse to kill innocent people. They've found an excuse just recently, they'll find another one whenever they like. Would you say it's acceptable or even understandable to kill innocent people because of police doing their job (not killing anyone)?
Again, why is it okay for israel to kill people in response? It's not ok for Israel to kill innocent people in response. But they also can't sit still and do nothing. To my knowledge they're not purposely targeting innocent people. Hamas on the other hand is doing exactly that. Again, I've said multiple times that the Israeli government isn't perfect either. What are we arguing about? I will always argue that they're doing some things that are wrong. I will not, however, agree that Israel is worse than Hamas, which is what I was disputing when I originally posted historic facts for context. And I will also not agree that the attacks against Israel will stop if Israel simply stops doing what it's been doing. And I also not agree that Israel should just surrender and let their land be reclaimed. None of that seems outrageous or obviously false to me. I'll have to go now, my day's over.
Isn't the very existence of Hamas a direct byproduct of Israeli violence towards Palestinians? Hamas was formed in 1987, which was after (at least) 20 years of Israelis settling on Palestinian land and terrorizing Palestinians; the rest of the world (sans the United States) seemed to acknowledge that what Israelis had been doing for decades was illegal and antithetical towards peace in the region. The protests and riots during the First Intifada indicated that Palestinians had had enough of being helpless, and were finally willing to explore more confrontational and aggressive options against Israel to try to make their voices heard. Without the consistent poking and prodding and occupying and invading and evicting and killing by Israeli forces, I don't think Hamas ends up ever gaining the traction it needed to counter Israel (because there would have been no overwhelming violence to "counter"). If Hamas is a monster, then Israel is responsible for creating a monster. Hamas is considered to be a terrorist group by some countries, but wayyy more countries acknowledge Israel to be the party primarily responsible for terrorizing the "other side", going so far as to cite international human rights violations and the Geneva convention:
In February 2011, the United States vetoed a draft resolution to condemn all Jewish settlements established in the occupied Palestinian territory since 1967 as illegal.[57] The resolution, which was supported by all other Security Council members and co-sponsored by over 120 nations,[58] would have demanded that "Israel, as the occupying power, immediately and completely ceases all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem and that it fully respect its legal obligations in this regard."[59] ... On January 31, 2012 the United Nations independent "International Fact-Finding Mission on Israeli Settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory" filed a report stating that Israeli settlements led to a multitude of violations of Palestinian human rights and that if Israel did not stop all settlement activity immediately and begin withdrawing all settlers from the West Bank, it potentially might face a case at the International Criminal Court. It said that Israel was in violation of article 49 of the fourth Geneva convention forbidding transferring civilians of the occupying nation into occupied territory. It held that the settlements are "leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_United_Nations#2010s
Also, to your point about Israel hypothetically surrendering and losing all their land, I don't think that's what the majority of Palestinians are even interesting in seeing happen (and it certainly isn't possible). Most people on both sides say they support a two-state solution. If anything, Palestinians generally want Israelis to just stay on their side of the drawn borders, even after Palestinians have compromised and conceded a majority of their land to Israel. On the other hand, a lot of Israelis are saying they want a two-state solution... yet their military is clearly interested in keeping control over *both* states. A two-state solution implies that both sides are independent entities, not "Israel + Israeli-controlled Palestine".
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On May 18 2021 00:02 Broetchenholer wrote:
The political reality of Israel is pretty simple. There is no majority for an improvement of the situation with the Palestinians. It doesn't mean all Israelis want that, but it means their society as a whole does not want it. Would you say a society is not responsible for the actions of their government? And yes, the american society wanted, as a whole a wall to be build. Political realities are forged by majorities of people not acting against them. If a policy is not opposed enough by the population to not be put into effect, then that means that it is okay for that society to have it in effect. The fact that a large percentage of Israleis would agree with my position more then with yours does not matter. Sure, the country is pretty divided over it. So why are you so binary?
How fucking hard is it to differentiate between "the leadership", "a minority of people", "the majority of people" and "the people"? And even then, your painting about the israeli people being "keen on opressing" is just wrong and you know it. It's exactly as wrong as saying the palestinian people are keen on terrorizing.
Lets pretend the UN starts acting and israel stops its settlements (which it should), what then? Main factors to even start building a peaceful coexistence would be economic development and deradicalization of leadership in Gaza, together with a less-right/radical leadership in Israel. How do you want to deradicalize the Hamas? Somebody was claiming that without israels constant provocation, they would just become less extreme by themselves. Please give me examples of a terrorist organisation or any radical organization that just became civil over time or that just vanished without violence. Additionally, as far as i know there is no moderate base to build up left in Gaza because there was big cleansing when Hamas got power. Without a change of leadership there most likely also won't be any economic help or delevopment because you would have to assume that Hamas would extort all the money to build more rockets and foreign workers there would have to fear for their lives.
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This conflict has gone for more than 50 years, the notion that either side is 'right' lost meaning two generations ago. It's more about how it will end. If things don't change, Israel will take more and more land until Palestinians are left living in small reservations surrounded by Israel and probably end up like the native American population. Are you fine with that?
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On May 18 2021 01:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 23:52 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 23:41 Broetchenholer wrote:Why? The democratically elected government of Israel has not made any attempts at deescalating the situation. Instead, they keep pushing the Palestinians further into the sea. They do that because the majority of their people want it or the majority of their people does not oppose it loud enough. Every society is defined by the action of their majority. The political majority of Israelis do not want their government to improve the situation of Palestinians. Where am i wrong?
Hamas will find any excuse to kill innocent people. They've found an excuse just recently, they'll find another one whenever they like. Would you say it's acceptable or even understandable to kill innocent people because of police doing their job (not killing anyone)?
Again, why is it okay for israel to kill people in response? It's not ok for Israel to kill innocent people in response. But they also can't sit still and do nothing. To my knowledge they're not purposely targeting innocent people. Hamas on the other hand is doing exactly that. Again, I've said multiple times that the Israeli government isn't perfect either. What are we arguing about? I will always argue that they're doing some things that are wrong. I will not, however, agree that Israel is worse than Hamas, which is what I was disputing when I originally posted historic facts for context. And I will also not agree that the attacks against Israel will stop if Israel simply stops doing what it's been doing. And I also not agree that Israel should just surrender and let their land be reclaimed. None of that seems outrageous or obviously false to me. I'll have to go now, my day's over. If Hamas is a monster, then Israel is responsible for creating a monster. If anything, Palestinians generally want Israelis to just stay on their side of the drawn borders, even after Palestinians have compromised and conceded a majority of their land to Israel.
Partially, i think that's somewhat fair to say, although the monster was fed quite a bit by various surrounding countries and or islamist organizations.
Palestinians have compromised and conceded land sounds like that did that willingly and it wasn't a consequence of them declaring and losing multiple wars against israel.
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On May 18 2021 01:53 MWY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2021 01:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:On May 17 2021 23:52 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 23:41 Broetchenholer wrote:Why? The democratically elected government of Israel has not made any attempts at deescalating the situation. Instead, they keep pushing the Palestinians further into the sea. They do that because the majority of their people want it or the majority of their people does not oppose it loud enough. Every society is defined by the action of their majority. The political majority of Israelis do not want their government to improve the situation of Palestinians. Where am i wrong?
Hamas will find any excuse to kill innocent people. They've found an excuse just recently, they'll find another one whenever they like. Would you say it's acceptable or even understandable to kill innocent people because of police doing their job (not killing anyone)?
Again, why is it okay for israel to kill people in response? It's not ok for Israel to kill innocent people in response. But they also can't sit still and do nothing. To my knowledge they're not purposely targeting innocent people. Hamas on the other hand is doing exactly that. Again, I've said multiple times that the Israeli government isn't perfect either. What are we arguing about? I will always argue that they're doing some things that are wrong. I will not, however, agree that Israel is worse than Hamas, which is what I was disputing when I originally posted historic facts for context. And I will also not agree that the attacks against Israel will stop if Israel simply stops doing what it's been doing. And I also not agree that Israel should just surrender and let their land be reclaimed. None of that seems outrageous or obviously false to me. I'll have to go now, my day's over. If Hamas is a monster, then Israel is responsible for creating a monster. If anything, Palestinians generally want Israelis to just stay on their side of the drawn borders, even after Palestinians have compromised and conceded a majority of their land to Israel. Partially, i think that's somewhat fair to say, although the monster was fed quite a bit by various surrounding countries and or islamist organizations. Palestinians have compromised and conceded land sounds like that did that willingly and it wasn't a consequence of them declaring and losing multiple wars against israel.
I agree with you that after Hamas was created - which could certainly be justified as an exasperated attempt at resistance to Israeli violence - its growth and vision were supplemented by many groups in the region, all of which could have vested interests. And I didn't mean to imply that Palestinians happily offered some of their land to appease Israelis, as an act of good faith; it was (and continues to be) taken from them, be it official wars or creeping settlements or explicit occupations.
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On May 17 2021 22:00 Magic Powers wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 21:30 nojok wrote:On May 17 2021 21:04 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 20:55 nojok wrote:
You're a fool parotting Israelian propaganda and refusing any other viewpoint. The aggressor is Israel, not the other way around, the fact you don't even see that is mind boggling.
I'm not parotting anything, and not refusing any viewpoints. I've expressed numerous times that the Israeli government has done things wrong, and I've named some of those things myself, for example the displacement of Palestinians. I'm refusing only the black and white notion that Israel is the only party at fault here, and that without them doing what they do, things would be all rosy and lovey dovey. Anyone who thinks that way doesn't understand why the tensions between Jews and Arabs really exist. This is not something that would end if Israel laid down its arms, stopped forced evictions and put no restrictions on freedom of religion. Do you really think it would simply end after that? Then I'm not the fool here. It is the whole point of their propaganda, they want to make it look like it's Israel against a huge mindless antisemitic horde whereas the main focus should be Israel stealing Palestinian lands. I keep hearing the word "propaganda" being thrown around, yet I have seen nothing that substantiates that. Are you saying that Hamas would stop firing rockets if Israel took a softer stance? Based on what? And no one's calling them "mindless". In fact I think Hamas is quite smart. I've pondered Israel's options, and my conclusion is that neither a more aggressive stance nor a less aggressive stance would be doing them any favors. Because of that I believe Hamas is banking on the off-chance that Israel makes a significant mistake (one of which could be an attempt to wage a full-on war against Gaza, conquer the region and claim the land). Hamas don't mind dying in their holy war if it results in a weakened Israel, either militarily or politically. And Israel completely backing off from Gaza would only strengthen Hamas, so that would also be a win for them. Either way they have nothing to lose. That doesn't seem mindless to me at all.
Sorry being a bit late back to this, i had to go out all day.
Do you include the land stealing when you say neither a more nor less aggressive stance would help Israel?
Because I don't see what stealing land has to do with Israel's wellbeing in this matter. other than a sadistic need on the part of their government to make Palestinians suffer, which escalates the conflict every single time.
I do actually agree that this isn't as simple as its easy to make it out to be. The fact is Israel has the power to do whatever they want with Palestine, and people are pissed because of what they choose to do. I'm fairly sure that were the positions reversed, Israelis would be suffering horribly, but that is a hypothetical situation (unless you want to go back generations, and I don't agree with that when it comes to political decision making). The reality of the situation is that Palestinians are being oppressed and abused by Israel, and the hypothetical reverse situation doesn't justify that.
The saddest thing for Jewish people is that Israel's actions in this conflict are fuelling antisemitism all over the world. I know previously good, anti-racist people who have become anti-Semitic because of their disgust at Israel's actions, and perceived Jewish support of it over here in the UK. Its not a particularly noticeable change from disagreeing with Israel to hating on Jewish people, and people slip from one to the other pretty easily.
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On May 18 2021 01:42 MWY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2021 00:02 Broetchenholer wrote:
The political reality of Israel is pretty simple. There is no majority for an improvement of the situation with the Palestinians. It doesn't mean all Israelis want that, but it means their society as a whole does not want it. Would you say a society is not responsible for the actions of their government? And yes, the american society wanted, as a whole a wall to be build. Political realities are forged by majorities of people not acting against them. If a policy is not opposed enough by the population to not be put into effect, then that means that it is okay for that society to have it in effect. The fact that a large percentage of Israleis would agree with my position more then with yours does not matter. Sure, the country is pretty divided over it. So why are you so binary? How fucking hard is it to differentiate between "the leadership", "a minority of people", "the majority of people" and "the people"? And even then, your painting about the israeli people being "keen on opressing" is just wrong and you know it. It's exactly as wrong as saying the palestinian people are keen on terrorizing. Lets pretend the UN starts acting and israel stops its settlements (which it should), what then? Main factors to even start building a peaceful coexistence would be economic development and deradicalization of leadership in Gaza, together with a less-right/radical leadership in Israel. How do you want to deradicalize the Hamas? Somebody was claiming that without israels constant provocation, they would just become less extreme by themselves. Please give me examples of a terrorist organisation or any radical organization that just became civil over time or that just vanished without violence. Additionally, as far as i know there is no moderate base to build up left in Gaza because there was big cleansing when Hamas got power. Without a change of leadership there most likely also won't be any economic help or delevopment because you would have to assume that Hamas would extort all the money to build more rockets and foreign workers there would have to fear for their lives.
Most independance movements were considered terrorists and they became more civil when their demands were met. It's like people don't like being ruled on their own land by foreigners. Fugitive slaves too became more civil once they were freed.
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On the settlement issue: Does Israel confiscate the areas and disown the owners where they are settling? Do they displace the inhabitants?
Because I honestly have no idea and how they approach it makes a huge difference.
On the Hamas: I doubt you'll manage to deradicalize them without very large concessions, but you might be able to deradicalize their voter base. The problem is that neither side of the conflict trusts each other, so deals are hard to make.
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On May 18 2021 01:42 MWY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2021 00:02 Broetchenholer wrote:
The political reality of Israel is pretty simple. There is no majority for an improvement of the situation with the Palestinians. It doesn't mean all Israelis want that, but it means their society as a whole does not want it. Would you say a society is not responsible for the actions of their government? And yes, the american society wanted, as a whole a wall to be build. Political realities are forged by majorities of people not acting against them. If a policy is not opposed enough by the population to not be put into effect, then that means that it is okay for that society to have it in effect. The fact that a large percentage of Israleis would agree with my position more then with yours does not matter. Sure, the country is pretty divided over it. So why are you so binary? How fucking hard is it to differentiate between "the leadership", "a minority of people", "the majority of people" and "the people"? And even then, your painting about the israeli people being "keen on opressing" is just wrong and you know it. It's exactly as wrong as saying the palestinian people are keen on terrorizing. Lets pretend the UN starts acting and israel stops its settlements (which it should), what then? Main factors to even start building a peaceful coexistence would be economic development and deradicalization of leadership in Gaza, together with a less-right/radical leadership in Israel. How do you want to deradicalize the Hamas? Somebody was claiming that without israels constant provocation, they would just become less extreme by themselves. Please give me examples of a terrorist organisation or any radical organization that just became civil over time or that just vanished without violence. Additionally, as far as i know there is no moderate base to build up left in Gaza because there was big cleansing when Hamas got power. Without a change of leadership there most likely also won't be any economic help or delevopment because you would have to assume that Hamas would extort all the money to build more rockets and foreign workers there would have to fear for their lives.
I really do not know what your problem is. If France would today start putting their muslim citizens into one big cage at the end of the Bretagne and this would happen without any major protests, just a few small ones and eventually France would move on, everyone would be decrying how France was violating the rights of all their muslim citizens. But now that it is about Israel, i suddenly have to end every sentence with "except for all the Israeli citizens that privately or publicly disagree"? I am not saying the society of Israel is monolithic, i know that there is a minority of people that are vehemently against the current political agenda but i also know, that pushback against the government policy is so little, that it does not change it. It is absolutely fair to say, that Israeli society does not care enough for the plight of the Palestinians to change the political landscape.
As for the example of the terrorist organisation, let's present to you the IRA and the ANC. Both are still around, both are old enough that people alive today witnessed them being terrorists and becoming basically political parties when the reason they were created ceased to exist. There are a lot of other groups like it, for instance in latin America. Also, as you are german, just look at the RAF. The terrorist group spawned several high ranking government officials. It's reach was never super high, but as it became more and more violent, and the political landscape around it shifted, the group faded out of the interest of the people it recruited from and those people instead turned to becoming involved in politics instead. This is of course pretty hard for the case of Hamas, as the idea of it is rooted deep in palestinian society right now, but if you keep improving life in Gaza and help moderates out, this can happen.
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On May 18 2021 02:48 Archeon wrote:
On the settlement issue: Does Israel confiscate the areas and disown the owners where they are settling? Do they displace the inhabitants?
Because I honestly have no idea and how they approach it makes a huge difference.
They move their military in, take the land and then start building settlements on the land for their citizens. They then build roads which Palestinians aren't allowed to use (often in the process locking Palestinians out of land that belongs to them or land that they need to work on). Then they populate the areas with their citizens,
From wiki:
A 1996 amendment to an Israeli military order, states that land privately owned can not be part of a settlement, unless the land in question has been confiscated for military purposes.[126] In 2006 Peace Now acquired a report, which it claims was leaked from the Israeli Government's Civil Administration, indicating that up to 40 percent of the land Israel plans to retain in the West Bank is privately owned by Palestinians.[162] Peace Now called this a violation of Israeli law.[163] Peace Now published a comprehensive report about settlements on private lands.[164][165] In the wake of a legal battle, Peace Now lowered the figure to 32 percent, which the Civil Administration also denied.[166] The Washington Post reported that "The 38-page report offers what appears to be a comprehensive argument against the Israeli government's contention that it avoids building on private land, drawing on the state's own data to make the case."
Also, from the Guardian today:
Sheikh Jarrah today smells of dirty socks and rotting flesh. Israeli police vehicles, known as “skunk trucks”, have been spraying Palestinian homes, shops, restaurants, public spaces and cultural institutions with putrid water at high pressure. The water causes vomiting, stomach pain and skin irritation, and was originally developed by an Israeli company to repel protesters. The stench lasts for days on clothes, skin and homes, leading Palestinians to joke that Jerusalem all smells like shit. Protesters are also targeted in other ways. They are brutally beaten, arrested by the police, some on mounted horses, attacked by settlers and sprayed with rubber bullets.
These forms of collective punishment aim to stop the growing movement to save Sheikh Jarrah and halt the dispossession of 27 Palestinian families of their homes there
On May 18 2021 02:59 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2021 02:40 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 17 2021 22:00 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 21:30 nojok wrote:On May 17 2021 21:04 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 20:55 nojok wrote:
You're a fool parotting Israelian propaganda and refusing any other viewpoint. The aggressor is Israel, not the other way around, the fact you don't even see that is mind boggling.
I'm not parotting anything, and not refusing any viewpoints. I've expressed numerous times that the Israeli government has done things wrong, and I've named some of those things myself, for example the displacement of Palestinians. I'm refusing only the black and white notion that Israel is the only party at fault here, and that without them doing what they do, things would be all rosy and lovey dovey. Anyone who thinks that way doesn't understand why the tensions between Jews and Arabs really exist. This is not something that would end if Israel laid down its arms, stopped forced evictions and put no restrictions on freedom of religion. Do you really think it would simply end after that? Then I'm not the fool here. It is the whole point of their propaganda, they want to make it look like it's Israel against a huge mindless antisemitic horde whereas the main focus should be Israel stealing Palestinian lands. I keep hearing the word "propaganda" being thrown around, yet I have seen nothing that substantiates that. Are you saying that Hamas would stop firing rockets if Israel took a softer stance? Based on what? And no one's calling them "mindless". In fact I think Hamas is quite smart. I've pondered Israel's options, and my conclusion is that neither a more aggressive stance nor a less aggressive stance would be doing them any favors. Because of that I believe Hamas is banking on the off-chance that Israel makes a significant mistake (one of which could be an attempt to wage a full-on war against Gaza, conquer the region and claim the land). Hamas don't mind dying in their holy war if it results in a weakened Israel, either militarily or politically. And Israel completely backing off from Gaza would only strengthen Hamas, so that would also be a win for them. Either way they have nothing to lose. That doesn't seem mindless to me at all. Sorry being a bit late back to this, i had to go out all day. Do you include the land stealing when you say neither a more nor less aggressive stance would help Israel? Because I don't see what stealing land has to do with Israel's wellbeing in this matter. other than a sadistic need on the part of their government to make Palestinians suffer, which escalates the conflict every single time. I do actually agree that this isn't as simple as its easy to make it out to be. The fact is Israel has the power to do whatever they want with Palestine, and people are pissed because of what they choose to do. I'm fairly sure that were the positions reversed, Israelis would be suffering horribly, but that is a hypothetical situation (unless you want to go back generations, and I don't agree with that when it comes to political decision making). The reality of the situation is that Palestinians are being oppressed and abused by Israel, and the hypothetical reverse situation doesn't justify that. The saddest thing for Jewish people is that Israel's actions in this conflict are fuelling antisemitism all over the world. I know previously good, anti-racist people who have become anti-Semitic because of their disgust at Israel's actions, and perceived Jewish support of it over here in the UK. Its not a particularly noticeable change from disagreeing with Israel to hating on Jewish people, and people slip from one to the other pretty easily. Is this not that excuse that people used on why black people should not riot? Racism/anti-Semitism is never all right, people in leadership are abusing it on both sides of this conflict to justify evil acts against each other and enrich themselves.
I never said it was alright.
I'm not getting the link to BLM. Edit: I kinda get it, but I'm not blaming Jewish people for the racism directed at them, I'm blaming Israel's policies of land stealing and worldwide censorship of criticism, and the racists of course, who are definitely wrong.
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On May 18 2021 01:23 DarkPlasmaBall wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 23:52 Magic Powers wrote:On May 17 2021 23:41 Broetchenholer wrote:Why? The democratically elected government of Israel has not made any attempts at deescalating the situation. Instead, they keep pushing the Palestinians further into the sea. They do that because the majority of their people want it or the majority of their people does not oppose it loud enough. Every society is defined by the action of their majority. The political majority of Israelis do not want their government to improve the situation of Palestinians. Where am i wrong?
Hamas will find any excuse to kill innocent people. They've found an excuse just recently, they'll find another one whenever they like. Would you say it's acceptable or even understandable to kill innocent people because of police doing their job (not killing anyone)?
Again, why is it okay for israel to kill people in response? It's not ok for Israel to kill innocent people in response. But they also can't sit still and do nothing. To my knowledge they're not purposely targeting innocent people. Hamas on the other hand is doing exactly that. Again, I've said multiple times that the Israeli government isn't perfect either. What are we arguing about? I will always argue that they're doing some things that are wrong. I will not, however, agree that Israel is worse than Hamas, which is what I was disputing when I originally posted historic facts for context. And I will also not agree that the attacks against Israel will stop if Israel simply stops doing what it's been doing. And I also not agree that Israel should just surrender and let their land be reclaimed. None of that seems outrageous or obviously false to me. I'll have to go now, my day's over. Isn't the very existence of Hamas a direct byproduct of Israeli violence towards Palestinians? Hamas was formed in 1987, which was after (at least) 20 years of Israelis settling on Palestinian land and terrorizing Palestinians; the rest of the world (sans the United States) seemed to acknowledge that what Israelis had been doing for decades was illegal and antithetical towards peace in the region. The protests and riots during the First Intifada indicated that Palestinians had had enough of being helpless, and were finally willing to explore more confrontational and aggressive options against Israel to try to make their voices heard. Without the consistent poking and prodding and occupying and invading and evicting and killing by Israeli forces, I don't think Hamas ends up ever gaining the traction it needed to counter Israel (because there would have been no overwhelming violence to "counter"). If Hamas is a monster, then Israel is responsible for creating a monster. Hamas is considered to be a terrorist group by some countries, but wayyy more countries acknowledge Israel to be the party primarily responsible for terrorizing the "other side", going so far as to cite international human rights violations and the Geneva convention: Show nested quote +In February 2011, the United States vetoed a draft resolution to condemn all Jewish settlements established in the occupied Palestinian territory since 1967 as illegal.[57] The resolution, which was supported by all other Security Council members and co-sponsored by over 120 nations,[58] would have demanded that "Israel, as the occupying power, immediately and completely ceases all settlement activities in the occupied Palestinian territory, including East Jerusalem and that it fully respect its legal obligations in this regard."[59] ... On January 31, 2012 the United Nations independent "International Fact-Finding Mission on Israeli Settlements in the Occupied Palestinian Territory" filed a report stating that Israeli settlements led to a multitude of violations of Palestinian human rights and that if Israel did not stop all settlement activity immediately and begin withdrawing all settlers from the West Bank, it potentially might face a case at the International Criminal Court. It said that Israel was in violation of article 49 of the fourth Geneva convention forbidding transferring civilians of the occupying nation into occupied territory. It held that the settlements are "leading to a creeping annexation that prevents the establishment of a contiguous and viable Palestinian state and undermines the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination." https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israel_and_the_United_Nations#2010s Also, to your point about Israel hypothetically surrendering and losing all their land, I don't think that's what the majority of Palestinians are even interesting in seeing happen (and it certainly isn't possible). Most people on both sides say they support a two-state solution. If anything, Palestinians generally want Israelis to just stay on their side of the drawn borders, even after Palestinians have compromised and conceded a majority of their land to Israel. On the other hand, a lot of Israelis are saying they want a two-state solution... yet their military is clearly interested in keeping control over *both* states. A two-state solution implies that both sides are independent entities, not "Israel + Israeli-controlled Palestine".
You're talking as if Palestinians hadn't been engaged in political violence (including numerous massacres and terrorist attacks against civilians) for decades prior to the formation of Hamas...
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palestinian_political_violence
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