|
Now that we have a new thread, in order to ensure that this thread continues to meet TL standards and follows the proper guidelines, we will be enforcing the rules in the OP more strictly. Be sure to give them a complete and thorough read before posting! NOTE: When providing a source, please provide a very brief summary on what it's about and what purpose it adds to the discussion. The supporting statement should clearly explain why the subject is relevant and needs to be discussed. Please follow this rule especially for tweets.
Your supporting statement should always come BEFORE you provide the source.If you have any questions, comments, concern, or feedback regarding the USPMT, then please use this thread: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/website-feedback/510156-us-politics-thread |
Okay lets try it the other way around.
I mean, sure, Palestine/Gaza is just a radical terrorist "state" bend on harming citizens of a peaceful democracy. But israel is defending itself so it's really a both sides situation with very fine people on many sides.
Doesn't that sound atleast a bit racist to you?
Without the last part of the sentence, it would be just a bad ignorant radical black and white statement. With the last part however, it's clearly a statement that all of the isreaelis are good people and all of the palestinians are bad (again, in the quotes context equal to nazis).
If you now take into context the "Colonial Ethnostate" part of the original post (which is clearly wrong btw), I don't see how that doesn't target jews.
And yes, it's not easy to draw the line between critizicing israel and and hating jews, and in the past it has been drawn too narrowly, but not drawing the line at all doesn't help either. Statements like this are in germany often used by the political party AfD to intentionally push this line back further and further. Saying something that could be and very likely was meant as racist, but can somehow be still excused as non-racist. Then do the same thing over and over again until suddenly, it's accepted.
|
On May 16 2021 20:19 stilt wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2021 19:17 MWY wrote:On May 16 2021 19:07 Gorsameth wrote:On May 16 2021 18:51 MWY wrote:On May 16 2021 08:35 Severedevil wrote:
I mean, sure, Israel is a colonial ethnostate bent on cleansing the native population. But the natives are fighting back, so it's really a both sides situation with very fine people on many sides. 1. What a shitpost. 2. So youre comparing israeli people to nazis in the usa? How is antisemitism handled in here? Do not confuse criticisms of the state and government of Israel with hatred for Jews in general. This is the quintessential defence used by Israel whenever people point out they are doing something bad. Throw their hands up and shout antisemitism. Using the famous "very fine people on both sides" quote is NOT critisicm of either state or government, but clearly a comparison to israels inhabitants, which according to the poster, are only jews. The quote is taken from Trump during a nazi-riot /demonstration if im correct. Denying the ethnic cleasing is quite a fallacy, this is a colonial state who based his existence on a ethnie which makes it obsessed with genetics and more and more ruled by a religious far right who expulses or slaughters the palestinian. And when they fought back you called them stupid and pitied Israel lol, 1 to 15, that's your current ratio. Hypocrisy at its finest is complaining about terrorism while being the biggest one. My gf is a christian libanese who had been traumatized with tsahal bombing, she is a full supporter of the hezbollah who fought efficiently against tsahal in 2006 and I totally support her.
The late 19th century/early 20th century saw a large number of nationalist and ethnocentric movements rise up, it spread across all the continents. The Arab world had its own share of nationalist groups attempting coup after coup, and to this day their motivations often include ethnic and nationalist supremacy, not just religious. These radical factions are not a feature that is unique to any particular ethnicity or nationality.
Towards the end of the 19th century the Jews were hated in many parts of the world. Some have lived peacefully as a small minority in Palestine. But in the 20th century Jews were at risk of further approaching the point of extinction, had not the British protected them in Palestine during their mass migration out of Europe and then left the native population defenseless (having to withdraw troops due to WW2).
Many dealings were made during those days, as several world powers in the early 20th century were planning to carve up Arab land for exploitation. This doesn't excuse the zionist takeover in Israel - which looked tame in comparison to what the world powers were doing - but I'd argue it puts it into perspective. It was a strategic move that not only faced native resistance but was also harshly condemned by communist Jews in Russia since they considered it a capitalist uprising. But many considered it the only real hope for Jews to have a place in the world to even exist.
All of this history may not seem so recent to us, but to the Jews living in Israel it can feel like yesterday, because they're still surrounded by enemies sharing the same views as previous generations starting in the early 20th century. What do you think is going to happen to the Jews in Israel if they lower their guard? I don't think we can so easily blame them for sticking together very tightly with an ethnocentric identity, even if that requires playing the bully on many occasions. Sometimes we forget how recent it was that nationalist movements spread to many corners of the world. Even democracy has hardly been practiced for long.
|
On May 16 2021 20:44 MWY wrote:
Okay lets try it the other way around.
I mean, sure, Palestine/Gaza is just a radical terrorist "state" bend on harming citizens of a peaceful democracy. But israel is defending itself so it's really a both sides situation with very fine people on many sides.
Doesn't that sound atleast a bit racist to you?
Without the last part of the sentence, it would be just a bad ignorant radical black and white statement. With the last part however, it's clearly a statement that all of the isreaelis are good people and all of the palestinians are bad (again, in the quotes context equal to nazis).
If you now take into context the "Colonial Ethnostate" part of the original post (which is clearly wrong btw), I don't see how that doesn't target jews.
And yes, it's not easy to draw the line between critizicing israel and and hating jews, and in the past it has been drawn too narrowly, but not drawing the line at all doesn't help either. Statements like this are in germany often used by the political party AfD to intentionally push this line back further and further. Saying something that could be and very likely was meant as racist, but can somehow be still excused as non-racist. Then do the same thing over and over again until suddenly, it's accepted.
That isn't the other way around.
The 'fine people on both sides' comment was clearly frustration at people drawing an equivalence where there is none. One side is worse, its as simple as that. It was the same in Charlottesville. One side is worse, treating them the same is stupid.
That is saying nothing about the Jewish people, its about the political conflict between political entities, and the victims of that who are inevitably always the Palestinian people.
Its a shame you are so determined to equate a political statement about political entities with antisemitism.
|
I mean what's the point of arguing about which side is more in the wrong, when the leadership of both parties of this never ending conflict show 0 regard for human life in order to achieve their goals?
|
On May 16 2021 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2021 20:44 MWY wrote:
Okay lets try it the other way around.
I mean, sure, Palestine/Gaza is just a radical terrorist "state" bend on harming citizens of a peaceful democracy. But israel is defending itself so it's really a both sides situation with very fine people on many sides.
Doesn't that sound atleast a bit racist to you?
Without the last part of the sentence, it would be just a bad ignorant radical black and white statement. With the last part however, it's clearly a statement that all of the isreaelis are good people and all of the palestinians are bad (again, in the quotes context equal to nazis).
If you now take into context the "Colonial Ethnostate" part of the original post (which is clearly wrong btw), I don't see how that doesn't target jews.
And yes, it's not easy to draw the line between critizicing israel and and hating jews, and in the past it has been drawn too narrowly, but not drawing the line at all doesn't help either. Statements like this are in germany often used by the political party AfD to intentionally push this line back further and further. Saying something that could be and very likely was meant as racist, but can somehow be still excused as non-racist. Then do the same thing over and over again until suddenly, it's accepted. That isn't the other way around. The 'fine people on both sides' comment was clearly frustration at people drawing an equivalence where there is none. One side is worse, its as simple as that. It was the same in Charlottesville. One side is worse, treating them the same is stupid. That is saying nothing about the Jewish people, its about the political conflict between political entities, and the victims of that who are inevitably always the Palestinian people. Its a shame you are so determined to equate a political statement about political entities with antisemitism.
That is literally exactly the other way around. I almost took the whole post and switched it. And obviously "people on both sides" DOES NOT target political entities but people. Those people are clearly worse than the other people. The israeli people are clearly worse than the palestinians. Everything else is interpretation by you to excuse this. One side is right, the other one is wrong is really strong argumentation by the way. Denying that the israeli people are victims of f.e. rocket attacks or bombings or even wars a couple years back doesn't really do you any favors.
It's a shame you are so keen to defend racism as a statement about political entities.
|
On May 16 2021 21:34 MWY wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2021 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 16 2021 20:44 MWY wrote:
Okay lets try it the other way around.
I mean, sure, Palestine/Gaza is just a radical terrorist "state" bend on harming citizens of a peaceful democracy. But israel is defending itself so it's really a both sides situation with very fine people on many sides.
Doesn't that sound atleast a bit racist to you?
Without the last part of the sentence, it would be just a bad ignorant radical black and white statement. With the last part however, it's clearly a statement that all of the isreaelis are good people and all of the palestinians are bad (again, in the quotes context equal to nazis).
If you now take into context the "Colonial Ethnostate" part of the original post (which is clearly wrong btw), I don't see how that doesn't target jews.
And yes, it's not easy to draw the line between critizicing israel and and hating jews, and in the past it has been drawn too narrowly, but not drawing the line at all doesn't help either. Statements like this are in germany often used by the political party AfD to intentionally push this line back further and further. Saying something that could be and very likely was meant as racist, but can somehow be still excused as non-racist. Then do the same thing over and over again until suddenly, it's accepted. That isn't the other way around. The 'fine people on both sides' comment was clearly frustration at people drawing an equivalence where there is none. One side is worse, its as simple as that. It was the same in Charlottesville. One side is worse, treating them the same is stupid. That is saying nothing about the Jewish people, its about the political conflict between political entities, and the victims of that who are inevitably always the Palestinian people. Its a shame you are so determined to equate a political statement about political entities with antisemitism. That is literally exactly the other way around. I almost took the whole post and switched it. And obviously "people on both sides" DOES NOT target political entities but people. Those people are clearly worse than the other people. The israeli people are clearly worse than the palestinians. Everything else is interpretation by you to excuse this. One side is right, the other one is wrong is really strong argumentation by the way. Denying that the israeli people are victims of f.e. rocket attacks or bombings or even wars a couple years back doesn't really do you any favors. It's a shame you are so keen to defend racism as a statement about political entities.
You are just inventing things.
1: No-one denied that Israeli people were the victims of rocket attacks.
2: You didn't just switch the statements, you added a whole layer of your own wrong interpretation in order to make an invalid point. Noting that the conflict is asymetrical equating the sides is wrong is not the same as saying 'all Palestinians are terrorists'. That's plainly ridiculous.
3: 'People on both sides' is clearly in reference to the people actually involved in the conflict, which is between the Israeli government on one side, and Hamas on the other, both working to the detriment of the Palestinian people. The Jewish people as a whole are barely even involved in the violence most of the time.
The main problem I have with your posting is that using the suffering of the Jewish people as an excuse for their government's actions is absolutely wrong, and supporting their government by enacting their policy of using antisemitism accusations to shut down debate and criticism is unacceptable.
|
|
|
Norway28561 Posts
On May 16 2021 21:32 thePunGun wrote:
I mean what's the point of arguing about which side is more in the wrong, when the leadership of both parties of this never ending conflict show 0 regard for human life in order to achieve their goals?
It's relevant from the perspective of the US politics megathread because the US has historically been far more supportive of one group, presumably under the reasoning that they agree more with that one group, presumably due to some reasoning that this group is less in the wrong - at least for most of the population - whose support has traditionally leaned very pro-Israel.
This is my big issue with framing this as 'anti-Semitism' - just as I don't want to frame a pro-Israel stance as anti-Islam or anti-Arab. It's why more pro-Israel sources will avoid focusing on the apartheid regime, spend more time focusing on Hamas using human shields, spend less time focusing on settlements triggering reactions and more time portraying Gaza as a reasonably decent place to live, while pro-Palestine sources have an opposite framing. Which side you think is more in the wrong is highly relevant in determining which side you support, and Israel depends upon support from mighty players to operate the way she operates.
Saying 'I understand why Hamas turns to launching rocket attacks out of desperation' is a way of stating that 'despite being opposed to launching rocket attacks against civilians, I think the other side is the one with the power to stop this' - not a way of saying 'I support launching rocket against against civilians'.
My own impression has long been that Israel is an apartheid state (I've noticed this has long been the opinion of people who experienced South Africa first hand), and we should treat it how we treated South Africa. Turn it into a pariah, international boycotts, ban from international events and sporting competitions. I also believe that Nelson Mandela was a hero - despite him being supportive of violent struggle. It's different from China, Russia or the US oppressing people or doing x piece of policy that I find abhorrent, because while we have historical precedence of social and economic pressure forcing smaller countries like South Africa to change their policies, we don't have the same precedence for social or economic pressure having the same success in influencing major/super powers.
|
Meh Israel is nothing like an apartheid state. Israeli arabs have the same rights than their jewish counterparts. Apartheid south Africa didn’t gave a black deputy speaker or a Supreme court justice. I think that it’s a super shacky comparison.
That being said, I agree Israel should be hit by international sanctions.
|
Norway28561 Posts
From Israel and the apartheid analogy - 'Israel and the apartheid analogy is a criticism of the Israeli government charging that Israel has practiced apartheid against Palestinians, primarily in its occupation of the West Bank'.
(Some commentators extend the term to include treatment of Arab citizens of Israel, describing their status as second-class citizens - but that's not necessarily how I meant it or how it's commonly used.)
Anyway, I notice that the analogy has been used by the ANC, whom I myself consider the chief authority on Apartheid.
(I also just read a Norwegian interview with the author of this blogpost two days ago - and he was insistent that 'Israeli apartheid makes south african apartheid pale in comparison'. )
I mean obviously you're free to disagree with it. But it's not an outlandish comparison, and I think it's apt. White South Africans also genuinely feared for their lives if apartheid was to end.
|
|
|
On May 16 2021 22:20 Liquid`Drone wrote:From Israel and the apartheid analogy - 'Israel and the apartheid analogy is a criticism of the Israeli government charging that Israel has practiced apartheid against Palestinians, primarily in its occupation of the West Bank'. (Some commentators extend the term to include treatment of Arab citizens of Israel, describing their status as second-class citizens - but that's not necessarily how I meant it or how it's commonly used.) Anyway, I notice that the analogy has been used by the ANC, whom I myself consider the chief authority on Apartheid. (I also just read a Norwegian interview with the author of this blogpost two days ago - and he was insistent that 'Israeli apartheid makes south african apartheid pale in comparison'. ) I mean obviously you're free to disagree with it. But it's not an outlandish comparison, and I think it's apt. White South Africans also genuinely feared for their lives if apartheid was to end.
Yeah, even after reading that I find the comparison thoroughly unconvincing. I understand why it’s a potent - if a bit dishonest - political tool, but it doesn’t help at all to grasp the nuances and complexity of the situation. I suspect that’s the point.
|
On May 16 2021 22:20 Liquid`Drone wrote:From Israel and the apartheid analogy - 'Israel and the apartheid analogy is a criticism of the Israeli government charging that Israel has practiced apartheid against Palestinians, primarily in its occupation of the West Bank'. (Some commentators extend the term to include treatment of Arab citizens of Israel, describing their status as second-class citizens - but that's not necessarily how I meant it or how it's commonly used.) Anyway, I notice that the analogy has been used by the ANC, whom I myself consider the chief authority on Apartheid. (I also just read a Norwegian interview with the author of this blogpost two days ago - and he was insistent that 'Israeli apartheid makes south african apartheid pale in comparison'. ) I mean obviously you're free to disagree with it. But it's not an outlandish comparison, and I think it's apt. White South Africans also genuinely feared for their lives if apartheid was to end.
Its much better comparison than the one to Nazi germany, thats for sure.
|
On May 16 2021 22:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Meh Israel is nothing like an apartheid state. Israeli arabs have the same rights than their jewish counterparts. Apartheid south Africa didn’t gave a black deputy speaker or a Supreme court justice. I think that it’s a super shacky comparison.
That being said, I agree Israel should be hit by international sanctions.
I think the analogy is fine imo.
The bold is what makes it particularly relevant here. This might be one of the few countries where the US's proclivity for unilateral sanctions could come in handy.
|
On May 16 2021 21:51 Jockmcplop wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2021 21:34 MWY wrote:On May 16 2021 21:19 Jockmcplop wrote:On May 16 2021 20:44 MWY wrote:
Okay lets try it the other way around.
I mean, sure, Palestine/Gaza is just a radical terrorist "state" bend on harming citizens of a peaceful democracy. But israel is defending itself so it's really a both sides situation with very fine people on many sides.
Doesn't that sound atleast a bit racist to you?
Without the last part of the sentence, it would be just a bad ignorant radical black and white statement. With the last part however, it's clearly a statement that all of the isreaelis are good people and all of the palestinians are bad (again, in the quotes context equal to nazis).
If you now take into context the "Colonial Ethnostate" part of the original post (which is clearly wrong btw), I don't see how that doesn't target jews.
And yes, it's not easy to draw the line between critizicing israel and and hating jews, and in the past it has been drawn too narrowly, but not drawing the line at all doesn't help either. Statements like this are in germany often used by the political party AfD to intentionally push this line back further and further. Saying something that could be and very likely was meant as racist, but can somehow be still excused as non-racist. Then do the same thing over and over again until suddenly, it's accepted. That isn't the other way around. The 'fine people on both sides' comment was clearly frustration at people drawing an equivalence where there is none. One side is worse, its as simple as that. It was the same in Charlottesville. One side is worse, treating them the same is stupid. That is saying nothing about the Jewish people, its about the political conflict between political entities, and the victims of that who are inevitably always the Palestinian people. Its a shame you are so determined to equate a political statement about political entities with antisemitism. That is literally exactly the other way around. I almost took the whole post and switched it. And obviously "people on both sides" DOES NOT target political entities but people. Those people are clearly worse than the other people. The israeli people are clearly worse than the palestinians. Everything else is interpretation by you to excuse this. One side is right, the other one is wrong is really strong argumentation by the way. Denying that the israeli people are victims of f.e. rocket attacks or bombings or even wars a couple years back doesn't really do you any favors. It's a shame you are so keen to defend racism as a statement about political entities. You are just inventing things. 1: No-one denied that Israeli people were the victims of rocket attacks. 2: You didn't just switch the statements, you added a whole layer of your own wrong interpretation in order to make an invalid point. Noting that the conflict is asymetrical equating the sides is wrong is not the same as saying 'all Palestinians are terrorists'. That's plainly ridiculous. 3: 'People on both sides' is clearly in reference to the people actually involved in the conflict, which is between the Israeli government on one side, and Hamas on the other, both working to the detriment of the Palestinian people. The Jewish people as a whole are barely even involved in the violence most of the time. The main problem I have with your posting is that using the suffering of the Jewish people as an excuse for their government's actions is absolutely wrong, and supporting their government by enacting their policy of using antisemitism accusations to shut down debate and criticism is unacceptable.
You literally stated "the victims of that [conflict...] are always the Palestinian people".
Yes i did just switch statements.
No it's not.
I'm not using anything. I have not once stated any position towards the israeli government. I have also not been trying to shut anything down besides the nazi comparisons to the israelis. You on the other hand are trying to find every way possible to excuse racism with critisicm.
|
On May 17 2021 00:55 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2021 22:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Meh Israel is nothing like an apartheid state. Israeli arabs have the same rights than their jewish counterparts. Apartheid south Africa didn’t gave a black deputy speaker or a Supreme court justice. I think that it’s a super shacky comparison.
That being said, I agree Israel should be hit by international sanctions. I think the analogy is fine imo. The bold is what makes it particularly relevant here. This might be one of the few countries where the US's proclivity for unilateral sanctions could come in handy.
The US are the ones who veto every sanction against Israel.
Tried a search to find if that was linked anywhere in this thread : + Show Spoiler +
Made by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Education_Foundation
Did not know Americans had such a different story being told on the subject.
|
|
|
On May 17 2021 01:14 nojok wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2021 00:55 GreenHorizons wrote:On May 16 2021 22:15 Biff The Understudy wrote:
Meh Israel is nothing like an apartheid state. Israeli arabs have the same rights than their jewish counterparts. Apartheid south Africa didn’t gave a black deputy speaker or a Supreme court justice. I think that it’s a super shacky comparison.
That being said, I agree Israel should be hit by international sanctions. I think the analogy is fine imo. The bold is what makes it particularly relevant here. This might be one of the few countries where the US's proclivity for unilateral sanctions could come in handy. The US are the ones who veto every sanction against Israel.Tried a search to find if that was linked anywhere in this thread : + Show Spoiler +https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP0-YohJR-g&ab_channel=TheOccupationoftheAmericanMind Made by https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Media_Education_Foundation Did not know Americans had such a different story being told on the subject.
Was probably too subtle, but those were basically my points. Clearly it is the US standing in the way of any international accountability while also wielding uniquely consequential and comprehensive influence on Israel's calculations on the perpetuation of their illegal occupations and war crimes against Palestinians.
Documentary is pretty good so far, so thanks for that.
|
Northern Ireland23897 Posts
On May 16 2021 22:36 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2021 18:53 Liquid`Drone wrote:
Being critical of Israel sure as hell isn't considered anti-Semitism, that's for sure. Very true, but it is also very true that some of the people who do are anti-Semitic. It is very similar to the dog whistle concept of racism in the US, some people have found that if they replace the word Jew with Israel they can say the same thing and get support from the left (and there are many anti-Semites in the left as well) that they could not get if they just said Jew. Jews still experience the most hate crimes in the US, more than Muslims, gays and so on. It is not a small problem. And also appropriate to discuss.
They’re relatively easy to distinguish though, especially given more discussion and more time. Likewise it’s pretty apparent whose criticisms of China are rooted in concerns for human rights and whose have Siniphobia underpinning them.
That said it is of course to be vigilant over anti-Semitism of course
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
