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On May 19 2021 21:38 Liquid`Drone wrote: It is a difficult topic to cordially discuss.. My best suggestion to everyone involved is to, if they feel they are about to make an overly aggressive post, is to reread it and see if they really have to include that part. But frankly, I think getting upset here is positive. You're not supposed to be so jaded that people aruing for bombing children makes you think 'meh'.
Still - it is best to avoid ad hominems. But I'm not gonna insist that you shouldnt be upset or angry - I think you should be both. ☺ I spent an hour this morning trying to write a post without being a dick to someone and then gave up lol
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On May 19 2021 23:53 Liquid`Drone wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2021 23:22 JimmiC wrote:On May 19 2021 23:01 Liquid`Drone wrote: Jimmy, did I accuse you of being solidly on the side of Israel? Of course not, that would be direct. You have not directly said that to anyone. You have left it open ended. But it is clear that many people think I am and when you do that it hits me and others. You also are all about civil conversation and so on, but when Kwark starts talking about promptly fucking my mother you fall silent. Who are the people "solidly on the side of Israel"? And what is their position. I doubt very few people can accurately describe those people positions because instead of using the basic communication model (acknowledge, question, confirm) they use the question piece for attempted gotcha's and they use the confirm to assert a position on the person. There is no mutual understanding so it is people talking beside each other and mostly insulting. It is disturbing how many of you consider yourselves and how proud many of you are at how you are bullying someone online. Well, I'll clarify once and for all. I'm more aligned with you politically than I am with any of the guys you accuse of bullying you, other than I guess myself. GH is revolutionary, I'm not. Neb kinda, too, and he's certainly less about reconciliation and getting together than I am. I'm pretty certain Kwark voted conservatory in the UK - I've voted left of Corbyn every election of my life. It very rarely happens that I read a post of yours and think 'that's a stupid political opinion'. My issues with you are 100% related to how you post, not what you think, and it's the same issue that repeats itself over and over and over, including in this very exchange we're having right now. You make assumptions about what other people think and then you write long posts based on those assumptions and even if confronted on those assumptions being wrong, you double down, insisting that your assumption was the right one even if you get corrected. Further, you're completely incapable of letting stuff go. I'm an English teacher and I don't want to wrongly use literally, but I think literally every time you've directed a post towards GH in the past.. year? longer?, it's been some kind of stupid, misplaced stab where you want him to criticize China or Venezuela instead of the US. This is why I think it's absolutely laughable to see you complain about Kwark taking your posts out of context and targeting you with 'gotcha' posts, because from my perspective, you are the single poster on the forum most guilty of doing just that. At least out of the 1000 or so posters whose posting habits I have any impression of, anyway. (I actually just checked. In the USPol megathread, you've mentioned Maduro 162 times and Venezuela 255 times and an actual majority of these are attempts at needling GH.) It has made me not want to discuss with you - and this generally makes me avoid responding to you. It's also generally not very interesting to discuss with you, because in terms of political opinion, I hardly ever find myself disagreeing in any meaningful way. This is direct feedback that I give to you because you in the very post I am responding to are essentially accusing me of being indirect in my communication. But no, I can also confirm that when I wrote 'amusingly even the guys solidly on the side of Israel don't support the settlements', then I did not even remotely have you in mind. Actually you are doing exactly what I am saying you are doing. I am not saying you are more politically aligned them, I'm saying you guys are basically the "cool" kids who bully others then pat yourselves on the back for how great you all are. You are the "nice" one, but behind closed doors not so much. (I base this on your PM's to me (not that they were mean, just that thy felt fake because of what you claimed and then how you acted later. Also your talk here about how you don't think people should be banned, while you actively campaign for me to be banned).
Again your assumption of my position not being my position and yet you treat it as fact and then argue against it
Next unlike you, I'm not a moderator, AND I don't pretend to be the good guy. I make loads of mistakes and most of the time admit them. Feel free to also search me on comments like "my bad" and "sorry" you will see lots. This is partly because I try to confirm to give people a chance to clarify, generally it works, but with some people who only use questions to try to get others they think that is the intention and never do clarify. Neb being a perfect example because he used to write a question to me and then in the next post right about he didn't care about answer!
You are also right on my treatment of GH, I am not fair to him the way I am to other people, I will also not be fair to Kwark going forward. I really really dislike bullies and when you cross that line, show no remorse but rather smugness, I begin to bully you. This is a character flaw and personal failing, but not one I am not aware of. You also do not take into account all that GH has done to me, we were both jerks. I'd be perfectly fine with a no bullying rule as long as someone ACTUALLY enforced it on the people they liked as well. + Show Spoiler +Actually since GH's last ban I do have to admit I am more of the bad guy than him, it just irritates the hell out of me that while he was being a complete asshole to me personally, following me from thread to thread (threads I created), supporting a horrible dictator and the mob of you was all calling me an asshole and GH the victim. You, Kwark and the other apologists have said GH only cared about the people and that it was the unilateral sanctions he was against. Then when he calls for unilateral sanctions on Israel no one bats a eye. It is a very personal issue to me and when people lie about it and others believe them I get riled up. Maduro is not a socialist, never has been, using that as a mask to cover his heinous crimes is awful. GH, Neb and others were doing exactly what Kwark, Neb, GH and so on are accusing Magicpowers of, apologizing for all the killing, slavery, robbery and so on be hur dur "Capitalists". Maduro is most certainly a war criminal, his personal police by his own reports kill 3500ish people a year in the streets. He has turned a wonderful country into a giant cartel. Here is the thing, THEY WERE ACTUALLY EXPLICTLY DOING IT. They actually argued that when Maduro's army shot and killed with machine guns in the back were justified because the Aid they were going for "could" have been weapons for a American coup. They checked, it was not, no coup happened. No capitalist's coup would happen because Maduro is not a socialist, he is not remotely close. This should have been really clear when we were discussing it, but if not it is crystal clear right now. No US coup has happened, no socialism in venezuala has happened. Just more of Maduro solidifying power and getting rich of the narcotics trade as well as using his people as salves in the horrible for the environment, illegal gold mines. There is very few if any worse people in the world right now, and people who support him are either ignorant to what he really is or they actually support the kind of "communism" that I say they do. It is also extremely telling that I keep bringing it up and they do not. None of them give two shits about Venezuela and the people. they only cared about trying to make it a capitalist's vs Socialists thing and insult me for not supporting the "socialist". I'm invested, I care, I follow it because of that, none of the rest do. Its all part of this strange bullshit agenda to shit on me and you are more than happy to join the bandwagon and be real disappointed when I fire back. I've spoilered this because it is a long rant on why I'm so frustrated. It does not make me right, I am saying it because I do believe it mitigates to some degree when I have been a jerk (and I don't want to be a liar and say I'm not posting it partially for that purpose). I am however, not saying I am a victim or that I do not share in the blame. I am saying that I share in the blame and that it is not all me.
Your personal failing is you freely admit that Kwark is to me what I am, in your impression, to GH. Yet you have determined me to the be bad guy and treat me as such. Somehow though you do not determine Kwark to be a bad guy and treat him as such. Instead you encourage and support him, if you were actually the fair person you think of yourself you would treat people equally based on their actions. This is not what you do. I do expect more from you both because of your position and your claims and I have been extremely disappointed, especially of late. While I see some justification for your position on me personally given what you think of me and how you have assumed I am. You take this position no matter who he does it too. And Kwark is not the only one I'm only bringing it up because he was so blatantly over the line that there is no way that you in good conscious can say otherwise. You should either hold everyone to the same standard or change your standard. If you don't like it when you think I have done this to GH, then you should not like it when Kwark, GH or who ever does it to others, regardles sof what you think of them but especially people who are new or at least not common posters in the various threads.
It does not bother me that you do not respond to me, you don't have to, no one does to anyone. It bothers me that you decide who are "good" people and who are not. It bothers me when you make blanket statements like the one I highlighted not specifying who. Then others lump me in whether you intend to or not and based on your bias behavior I often believe you are lumping me in.
It also really bothers me that I am the person who actually takes responsibility for when I have been an asshole. Whether its Kwark, Neb, GH, or even you (I know you can't fathom that you have been one, but just because you are not on the others level does not mean you are not one ever), you guys are completely unaware of the role you play in how people react back. And in the case of Kwark how other people feel they are able and should respond, because the mod is setting the example.
I do not want to be completely negative because that is also not fair. I appreciate you giving me direct feedback, I wish you would do it more and more evenly. Maybe you are privately and while that is helpful the lack of transparency leads to what is happening now. You do appear to be trying to be fair, and we are all human and that you don't like me is clearly going to impact you, and I do think you make a effort to look past that. I am frustrated with you not because I think you are bad as the others, I'm frustrated with you because I expect more of you.
Many people have been unfair, straight up rude and mean to Magicpowers, MWY and so on. They do not deserve it and they have not be even close to responding in kind. Very few and no one I named in this post has even attempted to understand their position, argue against that position and convince them. It has all been one way traffic of "this is what you actually think and you are a horrible person". There should be no pats on the back, no celebration, no battle has been won. You guys are just treating people the exact way you say people should treat others.
+ Show Spoiler +I continue to fail, because I said I did not want to make this a big feedback drama and yet here I am. I'm so incredibly disappointed that you think the way people behaved towards anyone who has not fully shit on Israel is a good way to behave. I feel in a no win situation because I feel it is both wrong to let the assholes continue to act the way they have been without anyone standing up for the victims of the obvious bullying, but I also know the pain that I will continue to go through. It would clearly be smarter for to just say nothing, or even better if I just joined every pile on and tried to be a cool kid too. I sat on this, I'm still not sure of the right choice but given that you continue to be completely fine with the shots at me I think I'm screwed regardless so here goes.
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United States40776 Posts
I wasn’t trying to trap MagicPowers. When I used the example of Dresden I was certain that he, like every good person, would recognize that it was a horrific war crime that cannot be justified. I was using it as an example of the problem with designating one side as the aggressor and then blaming any subsequent violence by the other party on the aggressor. Dresden is a good example because it took place after Allied victory was assured and served no military purpose, it was pure vengeance. My intent was to reach agreement that even if one side was the aggressor that does not absolve the other from their responsibility for atrocities if they commit atrocities.
The problem occurred when we did not agree that war crimes were bad and he went on a rambling post about how Germany wanted nuclear weapons and Japan exists and therefore there was no alternative to burning the civilian population of Dresden in a firestorm. That’s where we went off the rails. When I offered a potential alternative to the massacre of civilians (not massacring civilians) he shot that down. The man has a hardon for massacring civilians.
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Norway28261 Posts
I stopped reading your post where you said that I was campaigning to get you banned. This is untrue, and it's the second time you mention it. Just another example of you making assumptions that aren't true and then writing a long post based off it, which, shocker, is exactly what I wrote that you keep doing in the very post you just responded to.
For the record, we had discussions about whether to ban Danglars. I said I was opposed. I was open about my opposition to that outside the moderator forum, so that's no secret. Part of my opposition to banning Danglars was that I thought it gave credence to the argument that people are banned for their political opinions rather than their posting quality, because I said that there are other posters that are worse than Danglars but whose bad posting doesn't draw as much ire because their political opinions aren't as offensive. I then singled you out as one of two posters worse than Danglars (not necessarily the only two, but yes, I mentioned you as one of the two worst posters.)
Here's the thing - that's not me campaigning to get you banned. It's me campaigning against getting Danglars banned. I have a very consistent track record in arguing against banning posters. You can ask whatever moderator apparently feeds you selective/wrongful information from private conversations if he can find even one quote of me saying 'jimmy should get banned' - I'm fairly confident no such thing exists.
Also, I was polite towards you in PMs like three years ago. This was before you started posting a literal 3 digit complete ass-posts towards GH, which I've always been open about being the primary source of me disliking you.
I also think it's kinda laughable to be accused of bullying by someone I've responded to or directed a post towards something like 5 times in the past year, all of them direct responses to you. But whatever. I have no interest in posting more about this here, but please don't consider that an invitation to take it to PM. I just don't care.
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On May 20 2021 02:18 GreenHorizons wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2021 23:53 Liquid`Drone wrote:On May 19 2021 23:22 JimmiC wrote:On May 19 2021 23:01 Liquid`Drone wrote: Jimmy, did I accuse you of being solidly on the side of Israel? Of course not, that would be direct. You have not directly said that to anyone. You have left it open ended. But it is clear that many people think I am and when you do that it hits me and others. You also are all about civil conversation and so on, but when Kwark starts talking about promptly fucking my mother you fall silent. Who are the people "solidly on the side of Israel"? And what is their position. I doubt very few people can accurately describe those people positions because instead of using the basic communication model (acknowledge, question, confirm) they use the question piece for attempted gotcha's and they use the confirm to assert a position on the person. There is no mutual understanding so it is people talking beside each other and mostly insulting. It is disturbing how many of you consider yourselves and how proud many of you are at how you are bullying someone online. + Show Spoiler +Well, I'll clarify once and for all. I'm more aligned with you politically than I am with any of the guys you accuse of bullying you, other than I guess myself. GH is revolutionary, I'm not. Neb kinda, too, and he's certainly less about reconciliation and getting together than I am. I'm pretty certain Kwark voted conservatory in the UK - I've voted left of Corbyn every election of my life. It very rarely happens that I read a post of yours and think 'that's a stupid political opinion'. My issues with you are 100% related to how you post, not what you think, and it's the same issue that repeats itself over and over and over, including in this very exchange we're having right now.
You make assumptions about what other people think and then you write long posts based on those assumptions and even if confronted on those assumptions being wrong, you double down, insisting that your assumption was the right one even if you get corrected. Further, you're completely incapable of letting stuff go. I'm an English teacher and I don't want to wrongly use literally, but I think literally every time you've directed a post towards GH in the past.. year? longer?, it's been some kind of stupid, misplaced stab where you want him to criticize China or Venezuela instead of the US. This is why I think it's absolutely laughable to see you complain about Kwark taking your posts out of context and targeting you with 'gotcha' posts, because from my perspective, you are the single poster on the forum most guilty of doing just that. At least out of the 1000 or so posters whose posting habits I have any impression of, anyway. (I actually just checked. In the USPol megathread, you've mentioned Maduro 162 times and Venezuela 255 times and an actual majority of these are attempts at needling GH.) + Show Spoiler +It has made me not want to discuss with you - and this generally makes me avoid responding to you. It's also generally not very interesting to discuss with you, because in terms of political opinion, I hardly ever find myself disagreeing in any meaningful way.
This is direct feedback that I give to you because you in the very post I am responding to are essentially accusing me of being indirect in my communication. But no, I can also confirm that when I wrote 'amusingly even the guys solidly on the side of Israel don't support the settlements', then I did not even remotely have you in mind. I knew it was a lot (too many imo) but damn.
I realize now this count doesn't include this thread.
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On May 20 2021 02:46 KwarK wrote: I wasn’t trying to trap MagicPowers. When I used the example of Dresden I was certain that he, like every good person, would recognize that it was a horrific war crime that cannot be justified. I was using it as an example of the problem with designating one side as the aggressor and then blaming any subsequent violence by the other party on the aggressor. Dresden is a good example because it took place after Allied victory was assured and served no military purpose, it was pure vengeance. My intent was to reach agreement that even if one side was the aggressor that does not absolve the other from their responsibility for atrocities if they commit atrocities.
The problem occurred when we did not agree that war crimes were bad and he went on a rambling post about how Germany wanted nuclear weapons and Japan exists and therefore there was no alternative to burning the civilian population of Dresden in a firestorm. That’s where we went off the rails. When I offered a potential alternative to the massacre of civilians (not massacring civilians) he shot that down. The man has a hardon for massacring civilians.
Your pettiness is really striking. In the post above you still can't help yourself from taking another passive aggressive shot at the guy. You could have left the bolded part out, but then you would miss the chance to point out what a bad person he is. You kwark are the bad person, you enjoy making people feel bad and you make it your mission to make people you don't like feel bad. You are the definition of a bully. You show no remorse because you never think you do anything wrong, and you really push the envelope because you have the hammer and no one can report and most are too afraid to point it out because they know there won't be any consequences for you and that they will be on your shit list and you will jump in on them every chance you get from now until the end of time.
I don't feel bad, just embarrassed for you and sad for all the people you put down over and over if any of them had to feel that way so you could get your kicks. I also feel disappointed in all the people that embolden you to continue.
+ Show Spoiler +Sig bet is still open, and if you really think I won't accept the results I'm happy to pick a independent person to decide, but lets be serious you know you were wrong because I'm sure you've looked it up since, you just can't admit it and now (even currently) are just scouring my posts for anything you can assume to be wrong so you can insult me.
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On May 20 2021 02:55 Liquid`Drone wrote: I stopped reading your post where you said that I was campaigning to get you banned. This is untrue, and it's the second time you mention it. Just another example of you making assumptions that aren't true and then writing a long post based off it, which, shocker, is exactly what I wrote that you keep doing in the very post you just responded to.
For the record, we had discussions about whether to ban Danglars. I said I was opposed. I was open about my opposition to that outside the moderator forum, so that's no secret. Part of my opposition to banning Danglars was that I thought it gave credence to the argument that people are banned for their political opinions rather than their posting quality, because I said that there are other posters that are worse than Danglars but whose bad posting doesn't draw as much ire because their political opinions aren't as offensive. I then singled you out as one of two posters worse than Danglars (not necessarily the only two, but yes, I mentioned you as one of the two worst posters.)
Here's the thing - that's not me campaigning to get you banned. It's me campaigning against getting Danglars banned. I have a very consistent track record in arguing against banning posters. You can ask whatever moderator apparently feeds you selective/wrongful information from private conversations if he can find even one quote of me saying 'jimmy should get banned' - I'm fairly confident no such thing exists.
Also, I was polite towards you in PMs like three years ago. This was before you started posting a literal 3 digit complete ass-posts towards GH, which I've always been open about being the primary source of me disliking you.
I also think it's kinda laughable to be accused of bullying by someone I've responded to or directed a post towards something like 5 times in the past year, all of them direct responses to you. But whatever. I have no interest in posting more about this here, but please don't consider that an invitation to take it to PM. I just don't care.
I don't believe that you don't want me banned, your bias speaks very loud. There is no way if I said what Kwark did to me to anyone you would have not given a ban, that is silly.
I never said you were not polite, you are always polite. I don't believe you were honest.
You not reading my post or trying to understand my position is exactly my point. You are much "nicer" than them, but basically the same. You made your assumptions at that point, treated them as fact and acted on them. I do appreciate the consistency.
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Norway28261 Posts
You're wrong about every assumption you just made about me, again.
Here is the first PM I ever sent you. I think it was the first time we really communicated. It was a warning I sent you on may 8th 2019. Everything in here is entirely genuine:
'I've noticed over several posts that you throw in some veiled insults towards GH, where he does not do the same towards you. Your arguments are fine, but it would be highly preferable if you managed to write the same posts with the same content without including lines like 'Not a hard question for anyone but a conspiracy theory nut trying to keep together the threads of his myth.', or 'It is very Crazy how much influence you think the US has over other countries.', or 'you are even more clueless than I am' or 'That is low, even for you.'. Or writing stuff like 'I'm not trying to have a civil conversation I'm trying to end a non civil one, but without you twisting anything.'
If you don't like arguing with GH, don't argue with him. Nobody forces your hand writing replies to him. But he's most certainly being civil in his posts - more so than you are- , and if you disregard the tension, then both of you are contributing with good posts and valued insight.
Just as a tip, sometimes the best thing you can do when having a heated argument, is to wait a couple minutes before hitting post, read through your post again, and reevaluate whether you really had to include the most inflammatory part of it. I like you, but your posts would be better without the veiled or obvious insults mentioned in the first paragraph.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation, Liquid`Drone
We then exchanged a couple posts that were entirely cordial and there were no problems. I sent this as a fairly long warning specifically because of what I wrote in my last paragraph - that I like(d) you, but that your posts would be better without the veiled or obvious insults. Two years have passed since then, you have not at all stopped with those insults, and I've stopped liking you. But I was entirely honest when I wrote you that PM. People can compare this warning with the average warning that is sent, and see whether I spent more or less effort on it, and draw their own conclusions.
I also don't think I've banned a single poster outside of spammers/pbus for more than a decade, probably close to 15 years. Maybe I'm forgetting one or two posters. But I'm just not that kind of guy. I've consistently, since TL was formed, been the moderator most likely to argue against banning people. Seriously - most heated arguments that have taken place in the moderator forums - for almost two decades by now - has been me arguing against banning someone that other moderators wanted to ban. Again, I'm not interested in this discussion, but when you make public assumptions about me that are blatantly false, I feel compelled to reply.
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On May 20 2021 03:34 Liquid`Drone wrote:You're wrong about every assumption you just made about me, again. Here is the first PM I ever sent you. I think it was the first time we really communicated. It was a warning I sent you on may 8th 2019. Everything in here is entirely genuine: Show nested quote + 'I've noticed over several posts that you throw in some veiled insults towards GH, where he does not do the same towards you. Your arguments are fine, but it would be highly preferable if you managed to write the same posts with the same content without including lines like 'Not a hard question for anyone but a conspiracy theory nut trying to keep together the threads of his myth.', or 'It is very Crazy how much influence you think the US has over other countries.', or 'you are even more clueless than I am' or 'That is low, even for you.'. Or writing stuff like 'I'm not trying to have a civil conversation I'm trying to end a non civil one, but without you twisting anything.'
If you don't like arguing with GH, don't argue with him. Nobody forces your hand writing replies to him. But he's most certainly being civil in his posts - more so than you are- , and if you disregard the tension, then both of you are contributing with good posts and valued insight.
Just as a tip, sometimes the best thing you can do when having a heated argument, is to wait a couple minutes before hitting post, read through your post again, and reevaluate whether you really had to include the most inflammatory part of it. I like you, but your posts would be better without the veiled or obvious insults mentioned in the first paragraph.
Thanks in advance for your cooperation, Liquid`Drone
We then exchanged a couple posts that were entirely cordial and there were no problems. I sent this as a fairly long warning specifically because of what I wrote in my last paragraph - that I like(d) you, but that your posts would be better without the veiled or obvious insults. Two years have passed since then, you have not at all stopped with those insults, and I've stopped liking you. But I was entirely honest when I wrote you that PM. People can compare this warning with the average warning that is sent, and see whether I spent more or less effort on it, and draw their own conclusions. I also don't think I've banned a single poster outside of spammers/pbus for more than a decade, probably close to 15 years. Maybe I'm forgetting one or two posters. But I'm just not that kind of guy. I've consistently, since TL was formed, been the moderator most likely to argue against banning people. Seriously - most heated arguments that have taken place in the moderator forums - for almost two decades by now - has been me arguing against banning someone that other moderators wanted to ban. Again, I'm not interested in this discussion, but when you make public assumptions about me that are blatantly false, I feel compelled to reply. I've never accused of being anything but cordial and I've never accused you of banning others or wanting to ban others. I'm not saying you are a bully like him or the others, you just embolden their bullying by not holding them to the same standard as others. And that is not just warnings and bans, you often make comments to people who are stepping over the line, but never to Kwark. If you took the time to read my posts and tried to understand them, you might not get what I'm saying wrong so consistently.
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Norway28261 Posts
You accused me of being dishonest. What about that PM is dishonest? I liked you back then. I've stopped liking you since. This exchange we're having right now should make it easy to understand why - you're making assumptions about me that are untrue and accusing me of being dishonest. Why would I like someone who behaves in that manner?
To back up my point further - this is part of a post I made in this thread back in january 2020: 'I like jimmy as a poster when he's not arguing with GH - and have told him as much (in a private message, to be fair).' You really think this was just me keeping up the charade for an 8 month period so I'd look better now? I've also never argued for banning you - this is another untrue thing you keep repeating.
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Norway28261 Posts
My most heated argument in the uspol thread ever has been with Kwark. I'm pretty certain I've called him out for being impolite, too - I most certainly have in more private sections of the forums. (You know, just like how the first time I called you out for needling GH, I did so in a polite PM.). I've also given him credit for being incredibly smart and knowledgeable - there's no conflict in my mind between giving him credit and critique at the same time. Again, you're making assumptions about me that are wrong. I'm really not interested in this discussion, I think right now what would be best for you is to step off the computer and spend an hour calming down, but I will keep correcting you as long as you keep posting wrongful assumptions about me.
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On May 20 2021 03:41 Liquid`Drone wrote: You accused me of being dishonest. What about that PM is dishonest? I liked you back then. I've stopped liking you since. This exchange we're having right now should make it easy to understand why - you're making assumptions about me that are untrue and accusing me of being dishonest. Why would I like someone who behaves in that manner?
To back up my point further - this is part of a post I made in this thread back in january 2020: 'I like jimmy as a poster when he's not arguing with GH - and have told him as much (in a private message, to be fair).' You really think this was just me keeping up the charade for an 8 month period so I'd look better now? I've also never argued for banning you - this is another untrue thing you keep repeating. I also liked you back then, how things have changed. I have found your future actions to not match your words then. Past examples would be around GH and current are around Kwark.
And no I don't think you were keeping up a charade I think it is a unconscious bias.
If you have not asked for me to be banned, then I am wrong on that and apologize. I do however think you wish I was banned, and are biased against me. The begining part started whenever it is that you stopped liking me would be my guess.
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On May 19 2021 22:55 Acrofales wrote: When you're having a terrible discussion, just stop having it. If you are having a terrible discussoin with, of all posters, Drone, you should probably just rethink posting all together.
Sage advice that shouldn't go unheeded imo
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United States40776 Posts
On May 20 2021 03:16 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2021 02:46 KwarK wrote: I wasn’t trying to trap MagicPowers. When I used the example of Dresden I was certain that he, like every good person, would recognize that it was a horrific war crime that cannot be justified. I was using it as an example of the problem with designating one side as the aggressor and then blaming any subsequent violence by the other party on the aggressor. Dresden is a good example because it took place after Allied victory was assured and served no military purpose, it was pure vengeance. My intent was to reach agreement that even if one side was the aggressor that does not absolve the other from their responsibility for atrocities if they commit atrocities.
The problem occurred when we did not agree that war crimes were bad and he went on a rambling post about how Germany wanted nuclear weapons and Japan exists and therefore there was no alternative to burning the civilian population of Dresden in a firestorm. That’s where we went off the rails. When I offered a potential alternative to the massacre of civilians (not massacring civilians) he shot that down. The man has a hardon for massacring civilians. Your pettiness is really striking. In the post above you still can't help yourself from taking another passive aggressive shot at the guy. You could have left the bolded part out, but then you would miss the chance to point out what a bad person he is. You kwark are the bad person, you enjoy making people feel bad and you make it your mission to make people you don't like feel bad. You are the definition of a bully. You show no remorse because you never think you do anything wrong, and you really push the envelope because you have the hammer and no one can report and most are too afraid to point it out because they know there won't be any consequences for you and that they will be on your shit list and you will jump in on them every chance you get from now until the end of time. I don't feel bad, just embarrassed for you and sad for all the people you put down over and over if any of them had to feel that way so you could get your kicks. I also feel disappointed in all the people that embolden you to continue. + Show Spoiler +Sig bet is still open, and if you really think I won't accept the results I'm happy to pick a independent person to decide, but lets be serious you know you were wrong because I'm sure you've looked it up since, you just can't admit it and now (even currently) are just scouring my posts for anything you can assume to be wrong so you can insult me. You obviously won’t accept the results if you haven’t so far.
On May 13 2021 07:11 JimmiC wrote: Is the Iron dome part of the support the US should remove? Are you fine with the consequences of that?
You asserted that anyone who proposed leveraging US support for Israel wanted to strip the Iron Dome from over the heads of Israeli civilians and would therefore be to blame for any subsequent deaths.
There are a lot of problems with that argument like how Israel would have had to choose settlements over US support and so they would be to blame for their own choice to refuse the conditional support (as US support isn’t something they’re entitled to) but the main one is the idea that if US support disappeared the Iron Dome would too. It seemed like you thought it was something the US provided that could be taken away.
Of course it is not. It is an Israeli defence project that could not simply be turned off by the United States. While Israel did receive funding for operations of the Iron Dome as I mentioned at the time with sources + Show Spoiler + On May 13 2021 10:04 KwarK wrote: In the July 2020 appropriations (H.R. 7617) there was $73m for the Iron Dome. That's peanuts to Israel. The suggestion that anyone calling for an end to military aid to Israel is planning to strip the Iron Dome from the Israeli civilians is absurd. it is absolutely false for you to assert that the US could somehow be responsible for the removal of the Iron Dome.
I don’t need to look up the sources before accepting a sig bet, I had already checked the source (note my citation of the 2020 appropriations) before you offered the sig bet.
I don’t know whether you genuinely believed that the Iron Dome was some sort of literal dome the United States put over Israel or if you were just lying to try to win an internet argument. I also don’t care. You claimed that the withdrawal of US support would, and I quote, “remove” the Iron Dome. I disagreed because, as is apparent to everyone but you, it’s not something the US is projecting over Israel. That was the end of it. You lied (or didn’t know the truth) in order to accuse people suggesting the US leverage their foreign aid for policy concessions of trying to kill Israeli civilians. I called you out on the lie. That’s it. It’s not an argument, the Dome is factually not America’s to remove. Your weird obsession with me and your insistence on following me from topic to topic challenging me to sig bets needs to stop. Fuck off.
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On May 20 2021 03:50 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2021 03:16 JimmiC wrote:On May 20 2021 02:46 KwarK wrote: I wasn’t trying to trap MagicPowers. When I used the example of Dresden I was certain that he, like every good person, would recognize that it was a horrific war crime that cannot be justified. I was using it as an example of the problem with designating one side as the aggressor and then blaming any subsequent violence by the other party on the aggressor. Dresden is a good example because it took place after Allied victory was assured and served no military purpose, it was pure vengeance. My intent was to reach agreement that even if one side was the aggressor that does not absolve the other from their responsibility for atrocities if they commit atrocities.
The problem occurred when we did not agree that war crimes were bad and he went on a rambling post about how Germany wanted nuclear weapons and Japan exists and therefore there was no alternative to burning the civilian population of Dresden in a firestorm. That’s where we went off the rails. When I offered a potential alternative to the massacre of civilians (not massacring civilians) he shot that down. The man has a hardon for massacring civilians. Your pettiness is really striking. In the post above you still can't help yourself from taking another passive aggressive shot at the guy. You could have left the bolded part out, but then you would miss the chance to point out what a bad person he is. You kwark are the bad person, you enjoy making people feel bad and you make it your mission to make people you don't like feel bad. You are the definition of a bully. You show no remorse because you never think you do anything wrong, and you really push the envelope because you have the hammer and no one can report and most are too afraid to point it out because they know there won't be any consequences for you and that they will be on your shit list and you will jump in on them every chance you get from now until the end of time. I don't feel bad, just embarrassed for you and sad for all the people you put down over and over if any of them had to feel that way so you could get your kicks. I also feel disappointed in all the people that embolden you to continue. + Show Spoiler +Sig bet is still open, and if you really think I won't accept the results I'm happy to pick a independent person to decide, but lets be serious you know you were wrong because I'm sure you've looked it up since, you just can't admit it and now (even currently) are just scouring my posts for anything you can assume to be wrong so you can insult me. You obviously won’t accept the results if you haven’t so far. Show nested quote +On May 13 2021 07:11 JimmiC wrote: Is the Iron dome part of the support the US should remove? Are you fine with the consequences of that? You asserted that anyone who proposed leveraging US support for Israel wanted to strip the Iron Dome from over the heads of Israeli civilians and would therefore be to blame for any subsequent deaths. There are a lot of problems with that argument like how Israel would have had to choose settlements over US support and so they would be to blame for their own choice to refuse the conditional support (as US support isn’t something they’re entitled to) but the main one is the idea that if US support disappeared the Iron Dome would too. It seemed like you thought it was something the US provided that could be taken away. Of course it is not. It is an Israeli defence project that could not simply be turned off by the United States. While Israel did receive funding for operations of the Iron Dome as I mentioned at the time with sources + Show Spoiler + On May 13 2021 10:04 KwarK wrote: In the July 2020 appropriations (H.R. 7617) there was $73m for the Iron Dome. That's peanuts to Israel. The suggestion that anyone calling for an end to military aid to Israel is planning to strip the Iron Dome from the Israeli civilians is absurd. it is absolutely false for you to assert that the US could somehow be responsible for the removal of the Iron Dome. I don’t need to look up the sources before accepting a sig bet, I had already checked the source (note my citation of the 2020 appropriations) before you offered the sig bet. I don’t know whether you genuinely believed that the Iron Dome was some sort of literal dome the United States put over Israel or if you were just lying to try to win an internet argument. I also don’t care. You claimed that the withdrawal of US support would, and I quote, “remove” the Iron Dome. I disagreed because, as is apparent to everyone but you, it’s not something the US is projecting over Israel. That was the end of it. You lied (or didn’t know the truth) in order to accuse people suggesting the US leverage their foreign aid for policy concessions of trying to kill Israeli civilians. I called you out on the lie. That’s it. It’s not an argument, the Dome is factually not America’s to remove. Your weird obsession with me and your insistence on following me from topic to topic challenging me to sig bets needs to stop. Fuck off. There have been no results to accept. How does ChrsitianS as the person who picks who wins the sig bet sound? (if he declines we can pick someone else)
Here it is so we are clear.
I bet that the US spent far more than 70 million USD in 2020 military aid to Isreal on operation of their missile defense system the Iron dome. I clearly am including the missiles as they are clearly part of the operation. I define far more as at least 3x.
I did not think of any that, of course, I thought what I said and later clarified. You took my question way to literally and thought the worst of me as usual. I went on to say it was the funding which is also pretty clear from the context you all left out. it would be like me quoting you on this No, it was built by Israel and is not part of the US support. You should establish the factual foundations of your arguments before you make them.
and not your later clarifying comment. But even in trying to emulate you to you I can't bring myself to being that level of a jerk.
I'm not looking to rehash the whole discussion. We are the end point. I say the US support goes much more than the 73 million you stated and continue to state, you state it does not. Take the sig bet, I'm sure you can think of something really awful to make me put there!
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United States40776 Posts
On May 20 2021 04:02 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2021 03:50 KwarK wrote:On May 20 2021 03:16 JimmiC wrote:On May 20 2021 02:46 KwarK wrote: I wasn’t trying to trap MagicPowers. When I used the example of Dresden I was certain that he, like every good person, would recognize that it was a horrific war crime that cannot be justified. I was using it as an example of the problem with designating one side as the aggressor and then blaming any subsequent violence by the other party on the aggressor. Dresden is a good example because it took place after Allied victory was assured and served no military purpose, it was pure vengeance. My intent was to reach agreement that even if one side was the aggressor that does not absolve the other from their responsibility for atrocities if they commit atrocities.
The problem occurred when we did not agree that war crimes were bad and he went on a rambling post about how Germany wanted nuclear weapons and Japan exists and therefore there was no alternative to burning the civilian population of Dresden in a firestorm. That’s where we went off the rails. When I offered a potential alternative to the massacre of civilians (not massacring civilians) he shot that down. The man has a hardon for massacring civilians. Your pettiness is really striking. In the post above you still can't help yourself from taking another passive aggressive shot at the guy. You could have left the bolded part out, but then you would miss the chance to point out what a bad person he is. You kwark are the bad person, you enjoy making people feel bad and you make it your mission to make people you don't like feel bad. You are the definition of a bully. You show no remorse because you never think you do anything wrong, and you really push the envelope because you have the hammer and no one can report and most are too afraid to point it out because they know there won't be any consequences for you and that they will be on your shit list and you will jump in on them every chance you get from now until the end of time. I don't feel bad, just embarrassed for you and sad for all the people you put down over and over if any of them had to feel that way so you could get your kicks. I also feel disappointed in all the people that embolden you to continue. + Show Spoiler +Sig bet is still open, and if you really think I won't accept the results I'm happy to pick a independent person to decide, but lets be serious you know you were wrong because I'm sure you've looked it up since, you just can't admit it and now (even currently) are just scouring my posts for anything you can assume to be wrong so you can insult me. You obviously won’t accept the results if you haven’t so far. On May 13 2021 07:11 JimmiC wrote: Is the Iron dome part of the support the US should remove? Are you fine with the consequences of that? You asserted that anyone who proposed leveraging US support for Israel wanted to strip the Iron Dome from over the heads of Israeli civilians and would therefore be to blame for any subsequent deaths. There are a lot of problems with that argument like how Israel would have had to choose settlements over US support and so they would be to blame for their own choice to refuse the conditional support (as US support isn’t something they’re entitled to) but the main one is the idea that if US support disappeared the Iron Dome would too. It seemed like you thought it was something the US provided that could be taken away. Of course it is not. It is an Israeli defence project that could not simply be turned off by the United States. While Israel did receive funding for operations of the Iron Dome as I mentioned at the time with sources + Show Spoiler + On May 13 2021 10:04 KwarK wrote: In the July 2020 appropriations (H.R. 7617) there was $73m for the Iron Dome. That's peanuts to Israel. The suggestion that anyone calling for an end to military aid to Israel is planning to strip the Iron Dome from the Israeli civilians is absurd. it is absolutely false for you to assert that the US could somehow be responsible for the removal of the Iron Dome. I don’t need to look up the sources before accepting a sig bet, I had already checked the source (note my citation of the 2020 appropriations) before you offered the sig bet. I don’t know whether you genuinely believed that the Iron Dome was some sort of literal dome the United States put over Israel or if you were just lying to try to win an internet argument. I also don’t care. You claimed that the withdrawal of US support would, and I quote, “remove” the Iron Dome. I disagreed because, as is apparent to everyone but you, it’s not something the US is projecting over Israel. That was the end of it. You lied (or didn’t know the truth) in order to accuse people suggesting the US leverage their foreign aid for policy concessions of trying to kill Israeli civilians. I called you out on the lie. That’s it. It’s not an argument, the Dome is factually not America’s to remove. Your weird obsession with me and your insistence on following me from topic to topic challenging me to sig bets needs to stop. Fuck off. There have been no results to accept. How does ChrsitianS as the person who picks who wins the sig bet sound? (if he declines we can pick someone else) Here it is so we are clear. I bet that the US spent far more than 70 million USD in 2020 military aid to Isreal on operation of their missile defense system the Iron dome. I clearly am including the missiles as they are clearly part of the operation. I define far more as at least 3x. I did not think of any that, of course, I thought what I said and later clarified. You took my question way to literally and thought the worst of me as usual. I went on to say it was the funding which is also pretty clear from the context you all left out. it would be like me quoting you on this Show nested quote +No, it was built by Israel and is not part of the US support. You should establish the factual foundations of your arguments before you make them.
and not your later clarifying comment. But even in trying to emulate you to you I can't bring myself to being that level of a jerk. I'm not looking to rehash the whole discussion. We are the end point. I say the US support goes much more than the 73 million you stated and continue to state, you state it does not. Take the sig bet, I'm sure you can think of something really awful to make me put there! Is it still your opinion that the Iron Dome would be removed if US aid was discontinued? If yes, you’re wrong. If no, why the fuck are you still arguing about this?
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On May 20 2021 04:06 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2021 04:02 JimmiC wrote:On May 20 2021 03:50 KwarK wrote:On May 20 2021 03:16 JimmiC wrote:On May 20 2021 02:46 KwarK wrote: I wasn’t trying to trap MagicPowers. When I used the example of Dresden I was certain that he, like every good person, would recognize that it was a horrific war crime that cannot be justified. I was using it as an example of the problem with designating one side as the aggressor and then blaming any subsequent violence by the other party on the aggressor. Dresden is a good example because it took place after Allied victory was assured and served no military purpose, it was pure vengeance. My intent was to reach agreement that even if one side was the aggressor that does not absolve the other from their responsibility for atrocities if they commit atrocities.
The problem occurred when we did not agree that war crimes were bad and he went on a rambling post about how Germany wanted nuclear weapons and Japan exists and therefore there was no alternative to burning the civilian population of Dresden in a firestorm. That’s where we went off the rails. When I offered a potential alternative to the massacre of civilians (not massacring civilians) he shot that down. The man has a hardon for massacring civilians. Your pettiness is really striking. In the post above you still can't help yourself from taking another passive aggressive shot at the guy. You could have left the bolded part out, but then you would miss the chance to point out what a bad person he is. You kwark are the bad person, you enjoy making people feel bad and you make it your mission to make people you don't like feel bad. You are the definition of a bully. You show no remorse because you never think you do anything wrong, and you really push the envelope because you have the hammer and no one can report and most are too afraid to point it out because they know there won't be any consequences for you and that they will be on your shit list and you will jump in on them every chance you get from now until the end of time. I don't feel bad, just embarrassed for you and sad for all the people you put down over and over if any of them had to feel that way so you could get your kicks. I also feel disappointed in all the people that embolden you to continue. + Show Spoiler +Sig bet is still open, and if you really think I won't accept the results I'm happy to pick a independent person to decide, but lets be serious you know you were wrong because I'm sure you've looked it up since, you just can't admit it and now (even currently) are just scouring my posts for anything you can assume to be wrong so you can insult me. You obviously won’t accept the results if you haven’t so far. On May 13 2021 07:11 JimmiC wrote: Is the Iron dome part of the support the US should remove? Are you fine with the consequences of that? You asserted that anyone who proposed leveraging US support for Israel wanted to strip the Iron Dome from over the heads of Israeli civilians and would therefore be to blame for any subsequent deaths. There are a lot of problems with that argument like how Israel would have had to choose settlements over US support and so they would be to blame for their own choice to refuse the conditional support (as US support isn’t something they’re entitled to) but the main one is the idea that if US support disappeared the Iron Dome would too. It seemed like you thought it was something the US provided that could be taken away. Of course it is not. It is an Israeli defence project that could not simply be turned off by the United States. While Israel did receive funding for operations of the Iron Dome as I mentioned at the time with sources + Show Spoiler + On May 13 2021 10:04 KwarK wrote: In the July 2020 appropriations (H.R. 7617) there was $73m for the Iron Dome. That's peanuts to Israel. The suggestion that anyone calling for an end to military aid to Israel is planning to strip the Iron Dome from the Israeli civilians is absurd. it is absolutely false for you to assert that the US could somehow be responsible for the removal of the Iron Dome. I don’t need to look up the sources before accepting a sig bet, I had already checked the source (note my citation of the 2020 appropriations) before you offered the sig bet. I don’t know whether you genuinely believed that the Iron Dome was some sort of literal dome the United States put over Israel or if you were just lying to try to win an internet argument. I also don’t care. You claimed that the withdrawal of US support would, and I quote, “remove” the Iron Dome. I disagreed because, as is apparent to everyone but you, it’s not something the US is projecting over Israel. That was the end of it. You lied (or didn’t know the truth) in order to accuse people suggesting the US leverage their foreign aid for policy concessions of trying to kill Israeli civilians. I called you out on the lie. That’s it. It’s not an argument, the Dome is factually not America’s to remove. Your weird obsession with me and your insistence on following me from topic to topic challenging me to sig bets needs to stop. Fuck off. There have been no results to accept. How does ChrsitianS as the person who picks who wins the sig bet sound? (if he declines we can pick someone else) Here it is so we are clear. I bet that the US spent far more than 70 million USD in 2020 military aid to Isreal on operation of their missile defense system the Iron dome. I clearly am including the missiles as they are clearly part of the operation. I define far more as at least 3x. I did not think of any that, of course, I thought what I said and later clarified. You took my question way to literally and thought the worst of me as usual. I went on to say it was the funding which is also pretty clear from the context you all left out. it would be like me quoting you on this No, it was built by Israel and is not part of the US support. You should establish the factual foundations of your arguments before you make them.
and not your later clarifying comment. But even in trying to emulate you to you I can't bring myself to being that level of a jerk. I'm not looking to rehash the whole discussion. We are the end point. I say the US support goes much more than the 73 million you stated and continue to state, you state it does not. Take the sig bet, I'm sure you can think of something really awful to make me put there! Is it still your opinion that the Iron Dome would be removed if US aid was discontinued? If yes, you’re wrong. If no, why the fuck are you still arguing about this? I was never arguing that. I've been arguing what I've been arguing. And the Sig bet you keep saying you would take but I would not accept the results is what it is.
You can dodge and pretend my argument is whatever you want, but it won't change what the sig bet I offered was. Hell I offered it in hope that it might actually force you to read my words instead of whatever is in your head. Take it or don't, but if you don't take it stop pretending the US only puts 73 million of the aid they give towards it and its operation. And also stop pretending that you won't because you don't think I'll accept the results, I have a long history of sig bets and I've never welched.
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United States40776 Posts
On May 20 2021 04:10 JimmiC wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2021 04:06 KwarK wrote: Is it still your opinion that the Iron Dome would be removed if US aid was discontinued? I was never arguing that.
On May 13 2021 07:11 JimmiC wrote: Is the Iron dome part of the support the US should remove?
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I think sig bets are mostly dumb and want no part of this one FWIW
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On May 20 2021 04:21 KwarK wrote:Show nested quote +On May 20 2021 04:10 JimmiC wrote:On May 20 2021 04:06 KwarK wrote: Is it still your opinion that the Iron Dome would be removed if US aid was discontinued? I was never arguing that. Show nested quote +On May 13 2021 07:11 JimmiC wrote: Is the Iron dome part of the support the US should remove? That is not my quote, it is two things pulled out of context that I said. I'd like to say this is a new low, but it just your standard operation.
You really want to play this game? Or do you want to just admit you were wrong about the 73 million?
On May 13 2021 07:51 KwarK wrote: It's not about ego or insecurity, I have absolutely nothing to prove in life, I have achieved all I wish to and more, I have all the professional and personal successes you could imagine and more.
On May 18 2021 23:52 KwarK wrote: I saw your mother at which point I promptly fucked her
@ChristianS, fair enough, Kwarks not taking it anyway. He is just going to try to make me look dumb and bad in a sad attempt to protect his ego.
If anyone wants to see what my actual posts were or Kwarks here is the page but it might start before and it most certainly goes past.
edit: adding link I thought I added. https://tl.net/forum/general/532255-us-politics-mega-thread?page=3220#64398
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