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Girls cant play computer games!
Well I think we are well passed that statement by now. Yet the discussion sometimes pops up and then formost in media like tv and newspapers/taboids.
This is infact a topic that I am pretty blasé to myself. When sitting by the monitor watching red little dudas running around trying to kill my little dudas I dont really know or care what the gender of the player is. I will lose anyway.
I heard something interesting though on tv the other week and this is nothing new. "Girls only tournaments". - Now this is interesting. The people organising these events are trying to promote women gaming. Havent we already failed when segregating and acctually pointing to that there acctually would be a difference between women and men? by saying there is a difference yet there isnt so we will help you showing that you can do this by making a competition only for you as you are "special" but not really.
Also one could also play the unfairness card here. Women are allowed to sign up for all tournamenets but men arent allowed to sign up to womens only.
- But there are so few women playing! Yes but seriously. The internet is out there. The computers doesnt have some DNA lock requiring male DNA. Its available. Infact E-sports is so much more available to anyone with the access to a computer and internet, then alot of other sports. Your dad doesnt need to buy you a shiney pony, you dont need 10 other people to have a full team, nor do you need to be born with super powers to spinn around on the ice etc. So shouldnt this just be a question about choice?
The E-sports are growing. There is alot more girls playing computer games today then it was 10 years ago and all women arent fat, ugly flat chested drama queens as all guys arent fat, pale, spotty geeks.
Some time not very long ago there was an article in one of swedens largest newspaper/tabloid. Some girls where playing online and where abused with "get back to the kitchen" and some more nasty curse words. Well. Thats unfortunate and that ofc does not help promoting women to play more games but I have to raise an eyebrow tbh. - Men, boys, guys tend to use extremely harsh language between eachother aswell. More or less friendly banter, trolling etc. and the online testosterone is most times raging without limits. - So the question imo isnt if these women where verbally abused because they where women but if they where more verbally abused then men or boys, because they where women and if it wasnt just really a choice of wich composement of words to abuse with? - The limit of acceptans of abuse over the internet is another bigger question all together though and would do well in being addressed on its own. - Wouldnt just the simple solutions be not to tell ppl are you are a woman? if you use voice com with a person one wouldve thought you knew those people well enough to know you wont get judged for it? Then again women shouldnt have to hide the fact they are women aswell as a woman should be able to wear what clothes she wants to without being blamed for being molested... in a perfect world...
The internet is a mirror of our "real life" society in many ways. The world isnt a perfect place and nor are the internet but as in life you need to have some skin on your nose. I dont say that abuse should be accepted, ofc not, but women cant come online and expect to have less of it then men.
The internet is a harsh place for both genders and in the gaming evniroment, I honestly dont belive women are more exposed then men.
Isnt it time we undramatize this whole gender thing?
Please, feel free to reply your thoughts if they are different than my own. Do you think womens only tournaments are a good thing? Is there any need to specially promote e-sports to and for women? I say no, what do you say?
ps. forgive me for my spelling and grammar misstakes. I try but most times I just get to tired of google translating everything
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Whats the point of this thread, its good that you make it a blog.
There are many difference games, games like CS or SC are not appeal to women . I bet there are alot more girls play Plant vs Zombie then SC. its just like women don't like to play with toy guns and guys don't like to play with Barbie dolls when we are children. Its as simple as that.
Ofc, there are some exception, girls can play SC2 quite well(some are master and better than most guys) but their number is too small, so they can not be mainstreamed.
Tournaments for female only is needed, since there are so small number of female SC2 players, just let them have their fun. Its just like a girl night out, where they can get rid of all the guys and have some fun for themselves.
Many sports have seperate Male and Female tournaments, why not e-sport?
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On June 21 2011 18:41 Caphe wrote: There are many difference games, games like CS or SC are not appeal to women . I bet there are alot more girls play Plant vs Zombie then SC. Women are genetically programmed to enjoy making kimchi?
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Do you have a problem with gold and under tournaments as well?
Not every tournament's purpose is to determine the best player in the world. Some are held simply for practice, some are held to help players meet other players.
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On June 21 2011 18:52 Trumpet wrote: Do you have a problem with gold and under tournaments as well? Providing tournaments for lower-level players is different from segregating sexes or assuming that girls will inherently be worse.
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What is there to "undramatize"? Check almost any thread on TL that largely involves female gender, it's disgusting. I can't recall any female members of the community complaining about it, even though they probably should to an extent.
Even non-physical sports (snooker to name one off the top of my head) have separate competitions for females, no one ever objects it. In SC2 all female tournaments so far were small tournaments aimed to entertain the partaking players so I absolutely don't see a reason to be against them.
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On June 21 2011 18:41 Caphe wrote: Whats the point of this thread, its good that you make it a blog.
There are many difference games, games like CS or SC are not appeal to women . I bet there are alot more girls play Plant vs Zombie then SC. its just like women don't like to play with toy guns and guys don't like to play with Barbie dolls when we are children. Its as simple as that.
Ofc, there are some exception, girls can play SC2 quite well(some are master and better than most guys) but their number is too small, so they can not be mainstreamed.
Tournaments for female only is needed, since there are so small number of female SC2 players, just let them have their fun. Its just like a girl night out, where they can get rid of all the guys and have some fun for themselves.
Many sports have seperate Male and Female tournaments, why not e-sport?
Alot of sports got separeate tournaments for men and women that is true but that would be due to the fact that men are in average and general larger and stronger then women. I belive its something like 15% more muscles and have an easier time to build muscles etc. Thats down to physical starting points. What physical limitations are there between men and women in esports?
I also belive the sort of preconceived notion that women would only enjoy playing cute games like PvZ, wich is an amazing awsome game btw, and not enjoying FPS for example, is part of why some women might not play much games at all. They get told that its not for them before they had a chance to try it. They get told that they should try out PvZ instead of BF or Arma. Be this a problem or not, well thats what I would like to know
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On June 21 2011 18:55 Loser777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 18:52 Trumpet wrote: Do you have a problem with gold and under tournaments as well? Providing tournaments for lower-level players is different from segregating sexes or assuming that girls will inherently be worse.
Why? It's an arbitrary distinction. If I hold a tournament only open to people from my state or country, is that also unfair?
Also, why are you assuming girls are worse? The distinction isn't made because all girls are trapped in copper league, it's made to help female players meet other female players.
The TSL had similar segregating rules. It didn't allow Koreans to play until TSL3. Is that unfair? Somewhat, but we wanted a tournament for the foreign players who had stuck with starcraft over the years, is it really that bad?
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[QUOTE]On June 21 2011 19:01 Trumpet wrote: [QUOTE]On June 21 2011 18:55 Loser777 wrote: [QUOTE]On June 21 2011 18:52 Trumpet wrote: Do you have a problem with gold and under tournaments as well?[/QUOTE] Providing tournaments for lower-level players is different from segregating sexes or assuming that girls will inherently be worse.[/QUOTE]
Why? It's an arbitrary distinction. If I hold a tournament only open to people from my state or country, is that also unfair? I would argue that this is completely different as its a region aswell as a logistics issue but since the internet doesnt recognise borders... I guess this is a tough one. Yet to me it feels very different but Im unable to specify it in words.
Also, why are you assuming girls are worse? The distinction isn't made because all girls are trapped in copper league, it's made to help female players meet other female players. Do you care if you play girls or boys? why would girls care if they play girls or boys? I understand purely societywise it can be more important ofc. but gamewise?
The TSL had similar segregating rules. It didn't allow Koreans to play until TSL3. Is that unfair? Somewhat, but we wanted a tournament for the foreign players who had stuck with starcraft over the years, is it really that bad? Its also a bit different as the first quote I guess. Also you are hindering the players thats considered being "better" to compete with the ones that might not be as good and I dont know if we can say that when it comes to gender specific tournaments. Sure if we take the number and maybe even percentage of good men and women...
I dont know, maybe Im totally wrong in my assumptions. Maybe Im not even wideminded enough but I guess thats why I wanted to know what others thought. I personally think that when it comes to for example sc2, you gain more from competeing with ppl of your own skill level and practicing with ppl on the same level and slightly above, then you do with anything thats devided regarding what gender you are. I dont claim to be right
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My only problem with female only tourneys is that I believe any male only tourney would be criticised and probably banned from TL.
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On June 21 2011 18:31 AtreSamus wrote: Do you think womens only tournaments are a good thing? Is there any need to specially promote e-sports to and for women? I say no, what do you say?
It's a moot topic. Statistics answers your question for you. The ratio of men to women in eSports is something ridiculous and doesn't reflect the gender distribution in society as a whole. Thus, eSports promotion directed at females is required and indeed a good thing. The current skill level of females as a whole isn't relevant. If female numbers increase due to these tournaments then their average skill level will also increase until we have a big enough female talent pool one day to not require these promotional tournaments.
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same reason why girls aren't good at chess, even though chess is not a brawn thing.
girls are evolved for socializing. guys are evolved for calculating, strategizing, and attacking.
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Girls are not even remotely as competitive as guys are when it comes to video games and that explains all.
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On June 21 2011 19:47 LoneWolf.Alpha wrote: same reason why girls aren't good at chess, even though chess is not a brawn thing.
girls are evolved for socializing. guys are evolved for calculating, strategizing, and attacking.
What are you basing that on? Instead of innate ability I would think that interest plays a bigger factor.
Why are there so few female chess grandmasters?
+ Show Spoiler +Three years ago, Lawrence Summers, former president of Harvard University, claimed that genetic differences between the sexes led to a "different availability of aptitude at the high end". His widely derided led to his dismissal, but is views are by no means uncommon. In the same year, Paul Irwing and Richard Lynn conducted a review of existing studies on sex differences in intelligence and concluded:
"Different proportions of men and women with high IQs... may go some way to explaining the greater numbers of men achieving distinctions of various kinds for which a high IQ is required, such as chess grandmasters, Fields medallists for mathematics, Nobel prize winners and the like."
Irwing's opinion aside, there clearly is a lack of women in the areas he mentioned. In chess for example, there has never been a single female world champion and just 1% of Grand Masters are women. And as long as that's the case, there will always be people who claim that this disparity is caused by some form of inferiority on the part of the underrepresented sex. Thankfully, there will also always be others keen to find out if those who hold such views are full of it.
Among them is Merim Bilalic from Oxford University. Himself a keen chess player, Bilalic smelled a rat in Irwing's contention that men dominate the higher echelons of chess because of their innate ability. In an elegant new study, he has shown that the performance gap between male and female chess players is caused by nothing more than simple statistics.
Far more men play chess than women and based on that simple fact, you could actually predict the differences we see in chess ability at the highest level. It's a simple statistical fact that the best performers from a large group are probably going to be better than the best performers from a small one. Even if two groups have the same average skill and, importantly, the same range in skill, the most capable individuals will probably come from the larger group.
With this statistical effect in mind, Bilalic wanted to see if the actual sex difference that we see among chess players is any greater than the difference you would rationally expect. Fortunately, there are easy ways of finding out the answer for chess, as opposed to many other intellectual disciplines like science and engineering where success is nigh-impossible to measure objectively.
Every serious player has an objective rating - the Elo rating - that measures their skill based on their results against other players. Bilalic looked at a set of data encompassing all known German players - over 120,000 individuals, of whom 113,000 are men. He directly compared the top 100 players of either gender and used a mathematical model to work out the expected difference in their Elo ratings, given the size of the groups they belong to.
The model revealed that the greater proportion of male chess players accounts for a whopping 96% of the difference in ability between the two genders at the highest level of play. If more women took up chess, you'd see that difference close substantially.
Overall, the women actually performed slightly better than the model predicted and the top three in particular were playing well ahead of expectations. From positions 3 to 73, the men have a small but consistent advantage, wielding a competitive superiority that slightly exceed what statistics would predict. From the 80th pair onwards, the advantage shifts back to the fairer sex.
Bilalic describes the world's top female player, Judit Polgar, as "a phenomenon, by far the strongest female player the world has ever known [and] the only female player in the top 100". But according to Bilalic's study, the exceptional thing about Polgar is not necessarily that she is an incredible female chess player, but that she is a female chess player at all. Increase female representation in this game and you would probably see many more prodigies rising to the fore.
Bilalic's analysis is a scathing blow against people who claim (and frequently so) that the dominance of men in the world of chess is a sign of their intellectual superiority. His explanation is remarkable for both its simplicity and the fact that hardly anyone has thought about it. Recently, the website ChessBase asked some of the world's best female players to explain the male dominance in their chosen game. None of them mentioned differences in participation rates.
Of course, sceptics could argue that low participation rate is itself caused by the fact that women simply give up chess in greater numbers than men based on some innate disadvantage. As Bilalic says, the argument is "reasonable" but there is no evidence that the drop-out rate is higher in women than men.
In fact, Christopher Chablis and Mark Glickman recently found equal drop-out rates for boys and girls among 600 budding chess players of comparable age, skill and interest. Their study also found that both sexes improve at an matching pace, and they concluded that the success of men at chess's highest tiers is fuelled by the overwhelming majority of boys who enter the game at its lowest levels.
So why are there so few female chess grandmasters? Because fewer women play chess. It's that simple. This overlooked fact accounts for so much of the observable differences that other possible explanations, be they biological, cultural or environmental, are just fighting for scraps at the table.
In science and engineering, where men dominate the top ranks but also have an advantage in numbers, it's likely that the same explanation applies, rather than the innate differences cited by Summers and Irwing. There will always be those who take their position, but it's always nice to have hard data to show how demonstrably daft it is.
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My only problem with female only tourneys is that I believe any male only tourney would be criticised and probably banned from TL. - Number J If allowing one and not the other is always a bit of walking on an edge. What would happen if TL would refuse to touch any Women only tournaments? Would that "force" women to stop waiting for those events and start mixing in more with the larger group?
--- If female numbers increase due to these tournaments then their average skill level will also increase until we have a big enough female talent pool one day to not require these promotional tournaments. Once gone down that road is that so easy to turn back and say "ok now you are enough lets not have women only cups anymore"?
--- Im not arguing against everything just cause I wanna be an awkward person here but I just want to try and see things from different views, good and bad all alike.
Maybe its not a big issue all together
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On June 21 2011 19:17 deathly rat wrote: My only problem with female only tourneys is that I believe any male only tourney would be criticised and probably banned from TL. But there's no reason for male only tournaments since that is more or less every tournament anyway. A female tournament wants to get girls into gaming.
Anyway Hafu's team won Bloodline Champions on Dreamhack yesterday and I think she won an MLG in wow arena too (I know wow arena is maybe the worst e-sport made but that's beside the point). Females that put in the same amount of time and that actually practices with the best can get just as good at gaming.
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Do you care if you play girls or boys? why would girls care if they play girls or boys? I understand purely societywise it can be more important ofc. but gamewise?
Probably a lot of the girls who participate in those tournaments are the only one of their female RL friends who play SC2. Try being one of very few females in a very male dominated situation. I've stopped even bothering to correct people when they refer to me as "he" because someone else will just do it 10 seconds later. There's also the issue of what happens to a lot of guys on the internet once they realize they're interacting with an actual female. "OMG there are gurls on teh interwebs?! hurr hurr hurr." Sometimes you're better off just letting them think you're male. It's just nice once in a while to be able to admit you're female without having to deal with the idiocy that happens when a lot of males on the internet realize there's a female in their midst.
Having said that, if it were to become standard practice in major events to segregate the female competitors from the male, that would bother me. In physical sports there's a reason to do that because males have a physical advantage in size and strength. In e-sports there is no such limitation.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
'There is a lot more girls playing computer games today then it was 10 years ago and all women aren't fat, ugly flat chested drama queens as all guys aren't fat, pale, spotty geeks. '
As a fat/ugly/flat chested drama queen I'm rather good at video games. I just prefer to play ones which don't involve other people (Biohazard series, Silent Hill series, Fatal Frame, some RPGs, etc.) I get that you're making the distinction between the out-dated stereotype that all gamers are ugly losers living in their parent's basements etc. However, if it's linked to the idea that 'only hot girl (gamers) are worthy of existing.' then I find that pretty depressing/shallow.
*Looks around for that paper bag to put over her head again.*
P.S. In terms of spectating and getting involved in the fan club activities (as well as playing and being very knowledgeable about the technical side of games such as SC:BW.) it doesn't really need to be promoted to women here in Korea - there are already loads of them regularly attending matches, and organizing events.
As for the foreign scene - as an ugly girl with poor social skills I've found it to be a place filled with quite a lot of arrogant guys who will not give you the time of day unless you're pretty. (Regardless of how hard you work.) I've met a lot of nice guys during my time working in eSports, but like with most male-centric things (which the foreign scene pretty much is.) you get a lot of big egos (sometimes with gold-diggers attached to them.) This happens even more so online in certain places - for example the first time my photo was posted on TL the very first comment stated how ugly I was - as if that defined me and my worth in the scene.
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Why bring up a primitive idea that has been disproved in the modern world?
Thoughts like yours are the reason why women have a harder time adjusting to male-dominated occupations.
Give it time. Plus, it's not like they're limited by their physical capacities like in sports as long as they know how to use a keyboard and a mouse.
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See the spoilered post inside the OP of this thread for a thorough explanation of why Female Cups are a justifiable and correct solution to the issue of low female involvement in gaming. The answer mainly concerns differing motivations for the genders, rather than differing capabilities.
I also disagree with your view that the genders are attacked with equal venom in the online world. In my opinion women are targeted particularly harshly for sexually violent statements, something rare among men. While the wild wild web allows people to say all kinds of socially abhorrent things, a significant subset of troublemakers finds joy in attacking "sacred cows" of society (of which they perceive females to be one). Overall it just seems more hostile to be a woman online.
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