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Girls cant play computer games!
Well I think we are well passed that statement by now. Yet the discussion sometimes pops up and then formost in media like tv and newspapers/taboids.
This is infact a topic that I am pretty blasé to myself. When sitting by the monitor watching red little dudas running around trying to kill my little dudas I dont really know or care what the gender of the player is. I will lose anyway.
I heard something interesting though on tv the other week and this is nothing new. "Girls only tournaments". - Now this is interesting. The people organising these events are trying to promote women gaming. Havent we already failed when segregating and acctually pointing to that there acctually would be a difference between women and men? by saying there is a difference yet there isnt so we will help you showing that you can do this by making a competition only for you as you are "special" but not really.
Also one could also play the unfairness card here. Women are allowed to sign up for all tournamenets but men arent allowed to sign up to womens only.
- But there are so few women playing! Yes but seriously. The internet is out there. The computers doesnt have some DNA lock requiring male DNA. Its available. Infact E-sports is so much more available to anyone with the access to a computer and internet, then alot of other sports. Your dad doesnt need to buy you a shiney pony, you dont need 10 other people to have a full team, nor do you need to be born with super powers to spinn around on the ice etc. So shouldnt this just be a question about choice?
The E-sports are growing. There is alot more girls playing computer games today then it was 10 years ago and all women arent fat, ugly flat chested drama queens as all guys arent fat, pale, spotty geeks.
Some time not very long ago there was an article in one of swedens largest newspaper/tabloid. Some girls where playing online and where abused with "get back to the kitchen" and some more nasty curse words. Well. Thats unfortunate and that ofc does not help promoting women to play more games but I have to raise an eyebrow tbh. - Men, boys, guys tend to use extremely harsh language between eachother aswell. More or less friendly banter, trolling etc. and the online testosterone is most times raging without limits. - So the question imo isnt if these women where verbally abused because they where women but if they where more verbally abused then men or boys, because they where women and if it wasnt just really a choice of wich composement of words to abuse with? - The limit of acceptans of abuse over the internet is another bigger question all together though and would do well in being addressed on its own. - Wouldnt just the simple solutions be not to tell ppl are you are a woman? if you use voice com with a person one wouldve thought you knew those people well enough to know you wont get judged for it? Then again women shouldnt have to hide the fact they are women aswell as a woman should be able to wear what clothes she wants to without being blamed for being molested... in a perfect world...
The internet is a mirror of our "real life" society in many ways. The world isnt a perfect place and nor are the internet but as in life you need to have some skin on your nose. I dont say that abuse should be accepted, ofc not, but women cant come online and expect to have less of it then men.
The internet is a harsh place for both genders and in the gaming evniroment, I honestly dont belive women are more exposed then men.
Isnt it time we undramatize this whole gender thing?
Please, feel free to reply your thoughts if they are different than my own. Do you think womens only tournaments are a good thing? Is there any need to specially promote e-sports to and for women? I say no, what do you say?
ps. forgive me for my spelling and grammar misstakes. I try but most times I just get to tired of google translating everything 
   
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Whats the point of this thread, its good that you make it a blog.
There are many difference games, games like CS or SC are not appeal to women . I bet there are alot more girls play Plant vs Zombie then SC. its just like women don't like to play with toy guns and guys don't like to play with Barbie dolls when we are children. Its as simple as that.
Ofc, there are some exception, girls can play SC2 quite well(some are master and better than most guys) but their number is too small, so they can not be mainstreamed.
Tournaments for female only is needed, since there are so small number of female SC2 players, just let them have their fun. Its just like a girl night out, where they can get rid of all the guys and have some fun for themselves.
Many sports have seperate Male and Female tournaments, why not e-sport?
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On June 21 2011 18:41 Caphe wrote: There are many difference games, games like CS or SC are not appeal to women . I bet there are alot more girls play Plant vs Zombie then SC. Women are genetically programmed to enjoy making kimchi?
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Do you have a problem with gold and under tournaments as well?
Not every tournament's purpose is to determine the best player in the world. Some are held simply for practice, some are held to help players meet other players.
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On June 21 2011 18:52 Trumpet wrote: Do you have a problem with gold and under tournaments as well? Providing tournaments for lower-level players is different from segregating sexes or assuming that girls will inherently be worse.
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What is there to "undramatize"? Check almost any thread on TL that largely involves female gender, it's disgusting. I can't recall any female members of the community complaining about it, even though they probably should to an extent.
Even non-physical sports (snooker to name one off the top of my head) have separate competitions for females, no one ever objects it. In SC2 all female tournaments so far were small tournaments aimed to entertain the partaking players so I absolutely don't see a reason to be against them.
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On June 21 2011 18:41 Caphe wrote: Whats the point of this thread, its good that you make it a blog.
There are many difference games, games like CS or SC are not appeal to women . I bet there are alot more girls play Plant vs Zombie then SC. its just like women don't like to play with toy guns and guys don't like to play with Barbie dolls when we are children. Its as simple as that.
Ofc, there are some exception, girls can play SC2 quite well(some are master and better than most guys) but their number is too small, so they can not be mainstreamed.
Tournaments for female only is needed, since there are so small number of female SC2 players, just let them have their fun. Its just like a girl night out, where they can get rid of all the guys and have some fun for themselves.
Many sports have seperate Male and Female tournaments, why not e-sport?
Alot of sports got separeate tournaments for men and women that is true but that would be due to the fact that men are in average and general larger and stronger then women. I belive its something like 15% more muscles and have an easier time to build muscles etc. Thats down to physical starting points. What physical limitations are there between men and women in esports?
I also belive the sort of preconceived notion that women would only enjoy playing cute games like PvZ, wich is an amazing awsome game btw, and not enjoying FPS for example, is part of why some women might not play much games at all. They get told that its not for them before they had a chance to try it. They get told that they should try out PvZ instead of BF or Arma. Be this a problem or not, well thats what I would like to know
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On June 21 2011 18:55 Loser777 wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 18:52 Trumpet wrote: Do you have a problem with gold and under tournaments as well? Providing tournaments for lower-level players is different from segregating sexes or assuming that girls will inherently be worse.
Why? It's an arbitrary distinction. If I hold a tournament only open to people from my state or country, is that also unfair?
Also, why are you assuming girls are worse? The distinction isn't made because all girls are trapped in copper league, it's made to help female players meet other female players.
The TSL had similar segregating rules. It didn't allow Koreans to play until TSL3. Is that unfair? Somewhat, but we wanted a tournament for the foreign players who had stuck with starcraft over the years, is it really that bad?
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[QUOTE]On June 21 2011 19:01 Trumpet wrote: [QUOTE]On June 21 2011 18:55 Loser777 wrote: [QUOTE]On June 21 2011 18:52 Trumpet wrote: Do you have a problem with gold and under tournaments as well?[/QUOTE] Providing tournaments for lower-level players is different from segregating sexes or assuming that girls will inherently be worse.[/QUOTE]
Why? It's an arbitrary distinction. If I hold a tournament only open to people from my state or country, is that also unfair? I would argue that this is completely different as its a region aswell as a logistics issue but since the internet doesnt recognise borders... I guess this is a tough one. Yet to me it feels very different but Im unable to specify it in words.
Also, why are you assuming girls are worse? The distinction isn't made because all girls are trapped in copper league, it's made to help female players meet other female players. Do you care if you play girls or boys? why would girls care if they play girls or boys? I understand purely societywise it can be more important ofc. but gamewise?
The TSL had similar segregating rules. It didn't allow Koreans to play until TSL3. Is that unfair? Somewhat, but we wanted a tournament for the foreign players who had stuck with starcraft over the years, is it really that bad? Its also a bit different as the first quote I guess. Also you are hindering the players thats considered being "better" to compete with the ones that might not be as good and I dont know if we can say that when it comes to gender specific tournaments. Sure if we take the number and maybe even percentage of good men and women...
I dont know, maybe Im totally wrong in my assumptions. Maybe Im not even wideminded enough but I guess thats why I wanted to know what others thought. I personally think that when it comes to for example sc2, you gain more from competeing with ppl of your own skill level and practicing with ppl on the same level and slightly above, then you do with anything thats devided regarding what gender you are. I dont claim to be right
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My only problem with female only tourneys is that I believe any male only tourney would be criticised and probably banned from TL.
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On June 21 2011 18:31 AtreSamus wrote: Do you think womens only tournaments are a good thing? Is there any need to specially promote e-sports to and for women? I say no, what do you say?
It's a moot topic. Statistics answers your question for you. The ratio of men to women in eSports is something ridiculous and doesn't reflect the gender distribution in society as a whole. Thus, eSports promotion directed at females is required and indeed a good thing. The current skill level of females as a whole isn't relevant. If female numbers increase due to these tournaments then their average skill level will also increase until we have a big enough female talent pool one day to not require these promotional tournaments.
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same reason why girls aren't good at chess, even though chess is not a brawn thing.
girls are evolved for socializing. guys are evolved for calculating, strategizing, and attacking.
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Girls are not even remotely as competitive as guys are when it comes to video games and that explains all.
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On June 21 2011 19:47 LoneWolf.Alpha wrote: same reason why girls aren't good at chess, even though chess is not a brawn thing.
girls are evolved for socializing. guys are evolved for calculating, strategizing, and attacking.
What are you basing that on? Instead of innate ability I would think that interest plays a bigger factor.
Why are there so few female chess grandmasters?
+ Show Spoiler +Three years ago, Lawrence Summers, former president of Harvard University, claimed that genetic differences between the sexes led to a "different availability of aptitude at the high end". His widely derided led to his dismissal, but is views are by no means uncommon. In the same year, Paul Irwing and Richard Lynn conducted a review of existing studies on sex differences in intelligence and concluded:
"Different proportions of men and women with high IQs... may go some way to explaining the greater numbers of men achieving distinctions of various kinds for which a high IQ is required, such as chess grandmasters, Fields medallists for mathematics, Nobel prize winners and the like."
Irwing's opinion aside, there clearly is a lack of women in the areas he mentioned. In chess for example, there has never been a single female world champion and just 1% of Grand Masters are women. And as long as that's the case, there will always be people who claim that this disparity is caused by some form of inferiority on the part of the underrepresented sex. Thankfully, there will also always be others keen to find out if those who hold such views are full of it.
Among them is Merim Bilalic from Oxford University. Himself a keen chess player, Bilalic smelled a rat in Irwing's contention that men dominate the higher echelons of chess because of their innate ability. In an elegant new study, he has shown that the performance gap between male and female chess players is caused by nothing more than simple statistics.
Far more men play chess than women and based on that simple fact, you could actually predict the differences we see in chess ability at the highest level. It's a simple statistical fact that the best performers from a large group are probably going to be better than the best performers from a small one. Even if two groups have the same average skill and, importantly, the same range in skill, the most capable individuals will probably come from the larger group.
With this statistical effect in mind, Bilalic wanted to see if the actual sex difference that we see among chess players is any greater than the difference you would rationally expect. Fortunately, there are easy ways of finding out the answer for chess, as opposed to many other intellectual disciplines like science and engineering where success is nigh-impossible to measure objectively.
Every serious player has an objective rating - the Elo rating - that measures their skill based on their results against other players. Bilalic looked at a set of data encompassing all known German players - over 120,000 individuals, of whom 113,000 are men. He directly compared the top 100 players of either gender and used a mathematical model to work out the expected difference in their Elo ratings, given the size of the groups they belong to.
The model revealed that the greater proportion of male chess players accounts for a whopping 96% of the difference in ability between the two genders at the highest level of play. If more women took up chess, you'd see that difference close substantially.
Overall, the women actually performed slightly better than the model predicted and the top three in particular were playing well ahead of expectations. From positions 3 to 73, the men have a small but consistent advantage, wielding a competitive superiority that slightly exceed what statistics would predict. From the 80th pair onwards, the advantage shifts back to the fairer sex.
Bilalic describes the world's top female player, Judit Polgar, as "a phenomenon, by far the strongest female player the world has ever known [and] the only female player in the top 100". But according to Bilalic's study, the exceptional thing about Polgar is not necessarily that she is an incredible female chess player, but that she is a female chess player at all. Increase female representation in this game and you would probably see many more prodigies rising to the fore.
Bilalic's analysis is a scathing blow against people who claim (and frequently so) that the dominance of men in the world of chess is a sign of their intellectual superiority. His explanation is remarkable for both its simplicity and the fact that hardly anyone has thought about it. Recently, the website ChessBase asked some of the world's best female players to explain the male dominance in their chosen game. None of them mentioned differences in participation rates.
Of course, sceptics could argue that low participation rate is itself caused by the fact that women simply give up chess in greater numbers than men based on some innate disadvantage. As Bilalic says, the argument is "reasonable" but there is no evidence that the drop-out rate is higher in women than men.
In fact, Christopher Chablis and Mark Glickman recently found equal drop-out rates for boys and girls among 600 budding chess players of comparable age, skill and interest. Their study also found that both sexes improve at an matching pace, and they concluded that the success of men at chess's highest tiers is fuelled by the overwhelming majority of boys who enter the game at its lowest levels.
So why are there so few female chess grandmasters? Because fewer women play chess. It's that simple. This overlooked fact accounts for so much of the observable differences that other possible explanations, be they biological, cultural or environmental, are just fighting for scraps at the table.
In science and engineering, where men dominate the top ranks but also have an advantage in numbers, it's likely that the same explanation applies, rather than the innate differences cited by Summers and Irwing. There will always be those who take their position, but it's always nice to have hard data to show how demonstrably daft it is.
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My only problem with female only tourneys is that I believe any male only tourney would be criticised and probably banned from TL. - Number J If allowing one and not the other is always a bit of walking on an edge. What would happen if TL would refuse to touch any Women only tournaments? Would that "force" women to stop waiting for those events and start mixing in more with the larger group?
--- If female numbers increase due to these tournaments then their average skill level will also increase until we have a big enough female talent pool one day to not require these promotional tournaments. Once gone down that road is that so easy to turn back and say "ok now you are enough lets not have women only cups anymore"?
--- Im not arguing against everything just cause I wanna be an awkward person here but I just want to try and see things from different views, good and bad all alike.
Maybe its not a big issue all together
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On June 21 2011 19:17 deathly rat wrote: My only problem with female only tourneys is that I believe any male only tourney would be criticised and probably banned from TL. But there's no reason for male only tournaments since that is more or less every tournament anyway. A female tournament wants to get girls into gaming.
Anyway Hafu's team won Bloodline Champions on Dreamhack yesterday and I think she won an MLG in wow arena too (I know wow arena is maybe the worst e-sport made but that's beside the point). Females that put in the same amount of time and that actually practices with the best can get just as good at gaming.
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Do you care if you play girls or boys? why would girls care if they play girls or boys? I understand purely societywise it can be more important ofc. but gamewise?
Probably a lot of the girls who participate in those tournaments are the only one of their female RL friends who play SC2. Try being one of very few females in a very male dominated situation. I've stopped even bothering to correct people when they refer to me as "he" because someone else will just do it 10 seconds later. There's also the issue of what happens to a lot of guys on the internet once they realize they're interacting with an actual female. "OMG there are gurls on teh interwebs?! hurr hurr hurr." Sometimes you're better off just letting them think you're male. It's just nice once in a while to be able to admit you're female without having to deal with the idiocy that happens when a lot of males on the internet realize there's a female in their midst.
Having said that, if it were to become standard practice in major events to segregate the female competitors from the male, that would bother me. In physical sports there's a reason to do that because males have a physical advantage in size and strength. In e-sports there is no such limitation.
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NeverGG
United Kingdom5399 Posts
'There is a lot more girls playing computer games today then it was 10 years ago and all women aren't fat, ugly flat chested drama queens as all guys aren't fat, pale, spotty geeks. '
As a fat/ugly/flat chested drama queen I'm rather good at video games. I just prefer to play ones which don't involve other people (Biohazard series, Silent Hill series, Fatal Frame, some RPGs, etc.) I get that you're making the distinction between the out-dated stereotype that all gamers are ugly losers living in their parent's basements etc. However, if it's linked to the idea that 'only hot girl (gamers) are worthy of existing.' then I find that pretty depressing/shallow.
*Looks around for that paper bag to put over her head again.*
P.S. In terms of spectating and getting involved in the fan club activities (as well as playing and being very knowledgeable about the technical side of games such as SC:BW.) it doesn't really need to be promoted to women here in Korea - there are already loads of them regularly attending matches, and organizing events.
As for the foreign scene - as an ugly girl with poor social skills I've found it to be a place filled with quite a lot of arrogant guys who will not give you the time of day unless you're pretty. (Regardless of how hard you work.) I've met a lot of nice guys during my time working in eSports, but like with most male-centric things (which the foreign scene pretty much is.) you get a lot of big egos (sometimes with gold-diggers attached to them.) This happens even more so online in certain places - for example the first time my photo was posted on TL the very first comment stated how ugly I was - as if that defined me and my worth in the scene.
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Why bring up a primitive idea that has been disproved in the modern world?
Thoughts like yours are the reason why women have a harder time adjusting to male-dominated occupations.
Give it time. Plus, it's not like they're limited by their physical capacities like in sports as long as they know how to use a keyboard and a mouse.
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See the spoilered post inside the OP of this thread for a thorough explanation of why Female Cups are a justifiable and correct solution to the issue of low female involvement in gaming. The answer mainly concerns differing motivations for the genders, rather than differing capabilities.
I also disagree with your view that the genders are attacked with equal venom in the online world. In my opinion women are targeted particularly harshly for sexually violent statements, something rare among men. While the wild wild web allows people to say all kinds of socially abhorrent things, a significant subset of troublemakers finds joy in attacking "sacred cows" of society (of which they perceive females to be one). Overall it just seems more hostile to be a woman online.
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On June 21 2011 20:22 billy5000 wrote: Why bring up a primitive idea that has been disproved in the modern world?
Thoughts like yours are the reason why women have a harder time adjusting to male-dominated occupations.
Give it time. Plus, it's not like they're limited by their physical capacities like in sports as long as they know how to use a keyboard and a mouse.
Wich ideas are those? the one that I dont agree that segregating women from men in esports is perticularely good for womens gaming? or that I think women shouldnt take it to thick when the verbal shit hits the fan as its not something that happens only to women?
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On June 21 2011 20:17 NeverGG wrote: 'There is a lot more girls playing computer games today then it was 10 years ago and all women aren't fat, ugly flat chested drama queens as all guys aren't fat, pale, spotty geeks. '
As a fat/ugly/flat chested drama queen I'm rather good at video games. I just prefer to play ones which don't involve other people (Biohazard series, Silent Hill series, Fatal Frame, some RPGs, etc.) I get that you're making the distinction between the out-dated stereotype that all gamers are ugly losers living in their parent's basements etc. However, if it's linked to the idea that 'only hot girl (gamers) are worthy of existing.' then I find that pretty depressing/shallow.
*Looks around for that paper bag to put over her head again.*
P.S. In terms of spectating and getting involved in the fan club activities (as well as playing and being very knowledgeable about the technical side of games such as SC:BW.) it doesn't really need to be promoted to women here in Korea - there are already loads of them regularly attending matches, and organizing events.
As for the foreign scene - as an ugly girl with poor social skills I've found it to be a place filled with quite a lot of arrogant guys who will not give you the time of day unless you're pretty. (Regardless of how hard you work.) I've met a lot of nice guys during my time working in eSports, but like with most male-centric things (which the foreign scene pretty much is.) you get a lot of big egos (sometimes with gold-diggers attached to them.) This happens even more so online in certain places - for example the first time my photo was posted on TL the very first comment stated how ugly I was - as if that defined me and my worth in the scene.
Thank you for this very nice post  Arent you afraid that women are seen as "only" being good on the administrative side of esports? and when I say "only" ofc I dont mean only only... but you catch my drift.
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On June 21 2011 20:17 piegasm wrote:Show nested quote +Do you care if you play girls or boys? why would girls care if they play girls or boys? I understand purely societywise it can be more important ofc. but gamewise? Probably a lot of the girls who participate in those tournaments are the only one of their female RL friends who play SC2. Try being one of very few females in a very male dominated situation. I've stopped even bothering to correct people when they refer to me as "he" because someone else will just do it 10 seconds later. There's also the issue of what happens to a lot of guys on the internet once they realize they're interacting with an actual female. "OMG there are gurls on teh interwebs?! hurr hurr hurr." Sometimes you're better off just letting them think you're male. It's just nice once in a while to be able to admit you're female without having to deal with the idiocy that happens when a lot of males on the internet realize there's a female in their midst. Having said that, if it were to become standard practice in major events to segregate the female competitors from the male, that would bother me. In physical sports there's a reason to do that because males have a physical advantage in size and strength. In e-sports there is no such limitation.
Yeah, totaly agree. I've met my gf via a computer game and for 3 years now I'm able to watch her getting along in the internet. She plays SC2 (beats me sometimes), FPS and RPGs. She never ever admits that she is a girl until she can be sure that the guy she's talking to is not a complete douchebag because she doesn't want to be treated differently.
I must admit though that she is not as competitive as I am and she is more into things that are fun. While I try to be the best I can, she just enjoys gaming. Dunno if this is somthing that applies only to her but I have a generel feeling that girls approach gaming ... differently. Still she beats me every TL Fantasy League season ... =/
In my oppinion it just needs some time. There will be a time where girls won't be that rare on the internet and e-sports events will be crowded equally by both genders. And establishing girls only tournaments would rather be a punch in the face than an improvement.
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On June 21 2011 20:46 Toolshed wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 20:17 piegasm wrote:Do you care if you play girls or boys? why would girls care if they play girls or boys? I understand purely societywise it can be more important ofc. but gamewise? Probably a lot of the girls who participate in those tournaments are the only one of their female RL friends who play SC2. Try being one of very few females in a very male dominated situation. I've stopped even bothering to correct people when they refer to me as "he" because someone else will just do it 10 seconds later. There's also the issue of what happens to a lot of guys on the internet once they realize they're interacting with an actual female. "OMG there are gurls on teh interwebs?! hurr hurr hurr." Sometimes you're better off just letting them think you're male. It's just nice once in a while to be able to admit you're female without having to deal with the idiocy that happens when a lot of males on the internet realize there's a female in their midst. Having said that, if it were to become standard practice in major events to segregate the female competitors from the male, that would bother me. In physical sports there's a reason to do that because males have a physical advantage in size and strength. In e-sports there is no such limitation. Yeah, totaly agree. I've met my gf via a computer game and for 3 years now I'm able to watch her getting along in the internet. She plays SC2 (beats me sometimes), FPS and RPGs. She never ever admits that she is a girl until she can be sure that the guy she's talking to is not a complete douchebag because she doesn't want to be treated differently. I must admit though that she is not as competitive as I am and she is more into things that are fun. While I try to be the best I can, she just enjoys gaming. Dunno if this is somthing that applies only to her but I have a generel feeling that girls approach gaming ... differently. Still she beats me every TL Fantasy League season ... =/ In my oppinion it just needs some time. There will be a time where girls won't be that rare on the internet and e-sports events will be crowded equally by both genders. And establishing girls only tournaments would rather be a punch in the face than an improvement.
The last paragraf is what I agree with and tried to say only I used a whole lot of more useless words I guess
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But seeing as we're not at that point yet, we need to promote eSports to females ... Female only tournaments is one way of doing this.
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On June 21 2011 20:06 AtreSamus wrote: My only problem with female only tourneys is that I believe any male only tourney would be criticised and probably banned from TL. - Number J If allowing one and not the other is always a bit of walking on an edge. What would happen if TL would refuse to touch any Women only tournaments? Would that "force" women to stop waiting for those events and start mixing in more with the larger group?
My reasoning comes from first principles and not the practical situation at the moment. I recognise that it would be desirable to encourage more females into gaming, and that female only tourneys might do this. However I've always thought that people should be treated the same even if they aren't the same.
A moral position on right/wrong shouldn't change depending on the actual situation of the day.
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Let the girls have their own tournaments if they want to. If I was a girl, I would probably want to play against the best though, although maybe that's my guy genes talking.
There's one major difference between males and females. You could point at statistics, but if 95% (or whatever) of the pro chess players are male, it can only mean that men are more driven, and thus reach further because of their hard work. I think you can prove this by looking at the lower levels. Back in school I remember beating girls in chess, but I also remember losing. I never noticed any difference between males and females, except that most of the really good players were guys. But these guys played in chess clubs so it was kind of obvious. I'm pretty sure it's the same thing in SC. If you let 50 complete newbs of both genders play against eachother, I think it would be even. But if you instead just introduced them to the game, and then told them that there would be a tournament in 3 months, then I'm positive that the guys would win by a huge margin.
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I haven't been involved in the SC2 scene long enough yet or even at a high enough level to say what the current landscape is with female gamers, but I do remember playing on War2 on Kali and Case's Ladder. There were some highly skilled females that played back then. Granted, it was still less than 1%, but the top players of that time embraced the female players as part of the group. I guess it probably didn't hurt that each of the female players back then I knew to have a thick skin and often viewed themselves as "one of the guys". As for looks, none of us cared, but I got to meet a couple of them and they ranged from average to pretty.
Video games are different from other sports where gender differences exist. There is no reason that a woman should have any less skill/aptitude to play an RTS game. That said, I could care less as to what exclusionary tournaments are offered. If you don't want to participate in them, then don't. It's as simple as that. As long as there are no measures in place to prevent women, or any other group for that matter from competing at the top levels, then we're not dealing with any equality issues here, and so far, I have not seen anything in the pro event rules that would eliminate a woman from participating on the basis of having a shorter urethra.
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On June 21 2011 22:51 silverhand wrote: Video games are different from other sports where gender differences exist. There is no reason that a woman should have any less skill/aptitude to play an RTS game. That said, I could care less as to what exclusionary tournaments are offered. If you don't want to participate in them, then don't. It's as simple as that. As long as there are no measures in place to prevent women, or any other group for that matter from competing at the top levels, then we're not dealing with any equality issues here, and so far, I have not seen anything in the pro event rules that would eliminate a woman from participating on the basis of having a shorter urethra.
This seems to be about right. I see now that I was making a hen out of a feather I suppose  Still it was kind of nice to see a few other ppls views on things aswell. Even if they differed a bit it seems that most ppl come to the same conclusions.
Cheers guys and gals
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On June 21 2011 22:01 ninini wrote: Let the girls have their own tournaments if they want to. If I was a girl, I would probably want to play against the best though, although maybe that's my guy genes talking.
There's one major difference between males and females. You could point at statistics, but if 95% (or whatever) of the pro chess players are male, it can only mean that men are more driven, and thus reach further because of their hard work. I think you can prove this by looking at the lower levels. Back in school I remember beating girls in chess, but I also remember losing. I never noticed any difference between males and females, except that most of the really good players were guys. But these guys played in chess clubs so it was kind of obvious. I'm pretty sure it's the same thing in SC. If you let 50 complete newbs of both genders play against eachother, I think it would be even. But if you instead just introduced them to the game, and then told them that there would be a tournament in 3 months, then I'm positive that the guys would win by a huge margin. You completely ignore enculturation/socialization. How long have you been playing games for? For people of our, (or my, I have no idea how old you are), generation, games were very much a "guy" thing when I was little. Now I just so happened to have only a brother, only one female cousin in the entire extended family, and was the only girl my age in the neighborhood. All through elementary school, I hung out with the boys. We played nintendo games, starcraft, red alert, etc. My brother and I played Tie Fighter together. He manned the joystick and I controlled the keyboard because it was hard to do both at the same time. I grew up playing computer games, but I was far from the norm.
Most parents don't buy halflife for their daughter. Just as they don't often buy knex or an erector set or a chemistry set for their daughters. We get dolls, which are often creepy as hell, or toy kitchens, which is downright insulting. We aren't generally encouraged to go out and compete, but the notion that girls can't be competitive is laughable. You should have seen my high school crew team. Or my cousin's field hockey team. We could make the men look civilized. A lot of this is changing, but for many girls being raised today, parents may even actively discourage them from playing violent games, or from participating in stereotypically "male" activities.
Let's look at academia. 80 years ago, there were no women anywhere in high-end fields because well, we weren't *allowed* to be. Women weren't sent to school, much less universities. Would you have claimed that it must be a biological difference that no women enrolled in Harvard a century ago? If so, then women have magically increased in raw intelligence in the last several decades. Same with minorities. Surely no one would claim that minority under representation in academia/business is purely physical. Social factors affect us more than we want to admit.
Honestly I find it insulting that you could say that women simply "aren't built" to compete in games. We're taught not to from a very young age. When you're born, you're wrapped in either a pink or a blue blanket, right on day one. Your parents dress you in little pants or a dress, and that dictates how the world sees and treats you. So just as the old Greek philosophers, (wealthy men with the free time to sit around and ponder philosophy), used to consider women and slaves inherently stupider than themselves, you can claim that we aren't as good at games. But give the world another 20 years or so, or wait for these daughters of nerds to grow up, and we'll see a very different picture.
(and don't get me started on the "IF YOU WANNA BE TREATED EQUAL DON'T MENTION UR GENDER LOLOLOL". Believe it or not, being female has shaped a lot of my worldly experiences. It's hard to just drop that and put up a facade. The notion that I *should* do so just to be treated equally is also insulting.)
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There's a difference between being competitive and being driven. Competitive ppl live in the moment. Driven ppl live in the future. Women can probably be as competitive as men, but there's a lot of signs that show them not being as driven. If it's because of social conditioning doesn't matter to me, but that's how things are.
I honestly think women are equally talented to men, but in general they don't find the concept of developing a skill as tempting as men do. Atleast that's the only way I can explain why they aren't as successful, or maybe it's because they are taught not to have goals. It's definately not because they aren't interested in SC, Chess or whatever, because statistically the top tier is skewed in favor for men, if you look at the total amount of players.
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There's nothing insulting or morally wrong about all-female SC2 tournaments. They're actually a fantastic idea and only help further the Starcraft and ESPORT community. There is currently a disproportionate representation of males:females in video games and ESPORTS, in the RTS genre especially, so female tournaments help facilitate more women becoming active in the competitive scene and in the community. This is especially helpful because there are many barriers to entry for women into competitive video games (sexism, awkward internet social hierarchy, etc).
On June 21 2011 22:01 ninini wrote: There's one major difference between males and females. You could point at statistics, but if 95% (or whatever) of the pro chess players are male, it can only mean that men are more driven, and thus reach further because of their hard work. I think you can prove this by looking at the lower levels. Back in school I remember beating girls in chess, but I also remember losing. I never noticed any difference between males and females, except that most of the really good players were guys. But these guys played in chess clubs so it was kind of obvious. I'm pretty sure it's the same thing in SC. If you let 50 complete newbs of both genders play against eachother, I think it would be even. But if you instead just introduced them to the game, and then told them that there would be a tournament in 3 months, then I'm positive that the guys would win by a huge margin.
I also want to point out that this is completely wrong - there is no difference in aptitude between men and women. Any differences that you observe through life experience is influenced entirely by societal expectations and our natural tendency to conform to those expectations.
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On June 21 2011 18:31 AtreSamus wrote: - Wouldnt just the simple solutions be not to tell ppl are you are a woman? if you use voice com with a person one wouldve thought you knew those people well enough to know you wont get judged for it? Then again women shouldnt have to hide the fact they are women aswell as a woman should be able to wear what clothes she wants to without being blamed for being molested... in a perfect world... I think you need to look up the definition of "misogynist".
It boggles my mind that you are so offended by female only SC2 tournaments. Do you feel the same way about all gender segregated sports? Basketball softball track soccer... Do you feel the same way about affirmative action?
Men and women are different. That's not a bad thing, its a good thing. Uniqueness should be celebrated, not despised.
And for the record, I've dated several gamer girls and I've seen them get like 10x the crap I do when playing online with voice comm. It is true that guys are harsh towards each other as well, but it is NO WHERE NEAR as bad as it is for women. You're fooling yourself if you think women receive "equal treatment" when playing online. And your notion that women simply have "thinner skins" is equally ridiculous.
The main reason why there aren't many female gamers is because it is not yet socially acceptable for women to do so. It's been okay for men to be nerds since Star Trek 40 years ago. It's only been very recently that its started to become being okay for women, and it's still restricted to casual stuff like flash/facebook games and mmos.
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Yo i know girls who beast on the Sims lol
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On June 22 2011 02:18 kNightLite wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 18:31 AtreSamus wrote: - Wouldnt just the simple solutions be not to tell ppl are you are a woman? if you use voice com with a person one wouldve thought you knew those people well enough to know you wont get judged for it? Then again women shouldnt have to hide the fact they are women aswell as a woman should be able to wear what clothes she wants to without being blamed for being molested... in a perfect world... I think you need to look up the definition of "misogynist". It boggles my mind that you are so offended by female only SC2 tournaments. Do you feel the same way about all gender segregated sports? Basketball softball track soccer... Do you feel the same way about affirmative action? Men and women are different. That's not a bad thing, its a good thing. Uniqueness should be celebrated, not despised. And for the record, I've dated several gamer girls and I've seen them get like 10x the crap I do when playing online with voice comm. It is true that guys are harsh towards each other as well, but it is NO WHERE NEAR as bad as it is for women. You're fooling yourself if you think women receive "equal treatment" when playing online. And your notion that women simply have "thinner skins" is equally ridiculous. The main reason why there aren't many female gamers is because it is not yet socially acceptable for women to do so. It's been okay for men to be nerds since Star Trek 40 years ago. It's only been very recently that its started to become being okay for women, and it's still restricted to casual stuff like flash/facebook games and mmos.
I didnt say I found it offensive I just tried to say I thought it is counterproductive and you are absolutely right about the word misogynist I had no idea what it ment but if you are trying to say that I am one, I can assure you I am not.
As stated by me and other people here its not the same as more physical sports due to the fact that we ARE different in that way.
To be unique or not has, atleast to me, nothing to do with gender. How can you be unique at that when you have to be either of?
About the thinner skin, its a generalisation and mostly due to the women that article I had read was about. I shall try and find it to link here though it is a few months old and might have been removed. Those to me, reading it that time, seemed to do with a bit more "skin on the nose".
To the last paragraph I think we somewhat agree
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On June 21 2011 19:01 Trumpet wrote:Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 18:55 Loser777 wrote:On June 21 2011 18:52 Trumpet wrote: Do you have a problem with gold and under tournaments as well? Providing tournaments for lower-level players is different from segregating sexes or assuming that girls will inherently be worse. Why? It's an arbitrary distinction. If I hold a tournament only open to people from my state or country, is that also unfair? Also, why are you assuming girls are worse? The distinction isn't made because all girls are trapped in copper league, it's made to help female players meet other female players. The TSL had similar segregating rules. It didn't allow Koreans to play until TSL3. Is that unfair? Somewhat, but we wanted a tournament for the foreign players who had stuck with starcraft over the years, is it really that bad? Are you saying that all tournaments that segregate are the same on the basis that they are arbitrary decisions?
To clarify, I never said that girls were worse--only that segregating girls with the assumption that they are worse is different from creating a league for lower level decisions.
Again, I never said anything about any one type of tournament being bad. I was offering a distinction between different types of separation.
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OK I found the article but its in swedish and I also found the blog they run but Im unsure if its ok to link it here as it does contain the most horrible of language.
Please note that I do not defend the way these retards behave nor what they say or how they treat women and Im sure men. After quickly looking through some of the blog pages I can also say alot of these comments can have been made to either gender and I have seen similar comments made between guys aswell and I belive thats where the "thicker skin" comes in to play.
Again, the abuse on the internet is a much larger issue and wasnt really what I wanted to address as its to big for me to ever try to make heads or tails of and its totally beyond me how people can treat eachother in that manner.
Does anyone know if its ok to link their blog? its not there to create offense but more to highlight the fact that these things are going on and its time to do something about it. Wich I agree with but I think it doesnt necessarily needs to be abuse towards women only.
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I support women only tournaments. Because it helps an underrepresented minority get involved. It doesn't bother me in the slightest.
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Calgary25969 Posts
I think women-only tournaments are great. I think the threads about them are not.
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On June 22 2011 04:21 Chill wrote: I think women-only tournaments are great. I think the threads about them are not.
:/ thats a shame. As said before I didnt mean to make offense to anyone or any gender.
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Calgary25969 Posts
On June 22 2011 04:26 AtreSamus wrote:Show nested quote +On June 22 2011 04:21 Chill wrote: I think women-only tournaments are great. I think the threads about them are not. :/ thats a shame. As said before I didnt mean to make offense to anyone or any gender. You didn't offend me. The conversation has been played out and you haven't really brought anything new to the discussion whatsoever. You've restarted a conversation that never reached a conclusion by starting is back at the beginning.
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On June 22 2011 04:21 Chill wrote: I think women-only tournaments are great. I think the threads about them are not.
^ This
I'd watch it if it were streamed!
Thanks to the campus starcraft club I've been exposed to a number of girl gamers, most of which could beat me without breaking a sweat. Emasculating? Little bit. Fun? You bet!
Though, I do find all the bleeding hearts in this thread a bit humorous. Come on people - perspective! If you're going to start crying about social justice make it about something that actually matters, like clean drinking water in third world countries. 100% gender equality in a video game? It feels rather petty that our entertainment means THIS much to us...
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On June 22 2011 02:07 c.Deadly wrote:There's nothing insulting or morally wrong about all-female SC2 tournaments. They're actually a fantastic idea and only help further the Starcraft and ESPORT community. There is currently a disproportionate representation of males:females in video games and ESPORTS, in the RTS genre especially, so female tournaments help facilitate more women becoming active in the competitive scene and in the community. This is especially helpful because there are many barriers to entry for women into competitive video games (sexism, awkward internet social hierarchy, etc). Show nested quote +On June 21 2011 22:01 ninini wrote: There's one major difference between males and females. You could point at statistics, but if 95% (or whatever) of the pro chess players are male, it can only mean that men are more driven, and thus reach further because of their hard work. I think you can prove this by looking at the lower levels. Back in school I remember beating girls in chess, but I also remember losing. I never noticed any difference between males and females, except that most of the really good players were guys. But these guys played in chess clubs so it was kind of obvious. I'm pretty sure it's the same thing in SC. If you let 50 complete newbs of both genders play against eachother, I think it would be even. But if you instead just introduced them to the game, and then told them that there would be a tournament in 3 months, then I'm positive that the guys would win by a huge margin. I also want to point out that this is completely wrong - there is no difference in aptitude between men and women. Any differences that you observe through life experience is influenced entirely by societal expectations and our natural tendency to conform to those expectations. And you know this for a fact? I showed why I believe that the genders are different. You just say I'm wrong, without really doing anything to disprove my theory. I think you do that because it's not socially accepted to say that men and women are different, so you don't want to question it.
I think that we're very similar, but also that we have specific differences. If you look at us on a biological level, there's a difference. If you look at how men change in behaviour when they go through puberty, you can clearly see that the hormones have an effect on us. It's the same for women. Why is it so far-fetched that a higher testosterone level would make men more driven and adventure-seeking? It's scientifically proven that our hormones have an effect on our brain, so there is obviously some differences between how we think and act. I'm not saying men are superior. I'm just saying we're different on some levels.
It takes years to become really good at something, and most of the brilliant ppl in this world were more or less seen as idiots before they reached that level. If you play guitar in your basement for 6 hours every single day, your parents won't say "that's great, son. Keep practicing!". No, they will tell you to get a "realistic" goal instead. In general, if you want to get really good at something, the only encouragement you'll get is from yourself.
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